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What are you referring to here?Arcker and Elmade: Here is concrete proof it's literal
What are you referring to here?
Toshiro stops sword function by stopping Hope. If it's metaphor there was no need for Toshiro to stop hope. He could have just nulled the sword function. The fact he needed to stop hope shows it was literal not metaphor.
Hoffnung is called as a Supernatural phenomenon. Go read the chapter 671. Unless you need the meanings of supernatural thoroughly explained to you.
Supernatural - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
What are you referring to here?
I sure love getting ******* BOMBARDED with watermarks.
fan scans but you get the idea lmao
gerard literally says he has to switch to pure power, as that cant have its functions tampered withI'm not sure how this is concrete proof. This reads more like an assertion of your stance. He didn't say he "needed to stop hope." The scan on the profile just says "your hope has ceased to function" which just reads like a taunt in the same manner as the boasts that Gerrard had made earlier. This doesn't necessitate a literal interpretation.
In the officials Toshiro says "all of your hope has stopped functioning". A bit more direct that Toshiro was attacking hope literally.
It's not a taunt. Because we see it stop functioning and Gerard acknowledges it's stopped functioning. So no, it's no taunt.I'm not sure how this is concrete proof. This reads more like an assertion of your stance. He didn't say he "needed to stop hope." The scan on the profile just says "All of your hope has stopped functioning" which just reads like a taunt in the same manner as the boasts that Gerrard had made earlier. This doesn't necessitate a literal interpretation.
Same here.Am in agreement with Arc here.
Dude atleast give a better justification instead of saying you don't want to believe it's literal. You are just calling it metaphor without even giving a single arguments.Daegonx: I am not gonna believe what's written in the scans.
Stop instigating idc how biased/stubborn or not biased/stubborn someone is. I'll present my arguments and then other staff can vote on it.bruh just give up, its deagon, nothing you say will convince him
Honestly your explanation is better and detailed than me.Toshiro freezes and cuts Gerard's sword. Gerard begins to tell Toshiro that he will get damaged for damaging Hoffnung (his hope ability). Toshiro later states he stopped Gerard's hope from working, which we get visual confirmation on as Toshiro isn't harmed by the abilities of Gerard's hope power. Then Gerard acknowledges Toshiro to be correct indirectly by opting to no longer use his hope power. From these 3 pages we can very obviously observe that Toshiro is not dropping some non-literal taunt.
Edit: I got ninja'd by the above post.
I'm sorry, but we can't. This doesn't really require any gymnastics, the metaphor would still work very comfortably.From these 3 pages we can very obviously observe that Toshiro is not dropping some non-literal taunt.
Why would stopping sword would stop his body functions? Hope and fear are different concepts. Toshiro didn't stopped miracle itself he stopped a single ability regarding sword. Fear and hope are derived from miracle. Both are different concepts.I'm sorry, but we can't. This doesn't really require any gymnastics, the metaphor would still work very comfortably.
If Hoffnung has an ability that he describes (but isn't literally) as being based on hope, and Gerrard has a braggadocios demeanor in talking about it, it would still be very natural for an opponent who disables Hoffnung's ability to say "All of your hope has stopped functioning."
In fact, I think this scan sort of points to the opposite. Gerrard also says "this body that cannot be destroyed is enlarged by the people's fears." It would stand to reason then that if what you were saying was true, his body would immediately and noticeably decrease in size. Did that occur?
Everybody knows this is not true dude.This doesn't really require any gymnastics, the metaphor would still work very comfortably
If you can prove Hoffnung's ability isn't real sure. But merely stating a what if does not prove your point. Please substantiate your claims with actual evidence.I'm sorry, but we can't. This doesn't really require any gymnastics, the metaphor would still work very comfortably.
If Hoffnung has an ability that he describes (but isn't literally) as being based on hope, and Gerrard has a braggadocios demeanor in talking about it, it would still be very natural for an opponent who disables Hoffnung's ability to say "All of your hope has stopped functioning."
Where does it say his body is reduced? It only mentions an increase in size. This point doesn't work at all. If Gerard said "enlarged and reduced" than yes, but we are only told and shown that his body gets bigger, never smaller. His body being capable of growing does not inherent imply it can shrink, that is a baseless assumption.In fact, I think this scan sort of points to the opposite. Gerrard also says "this body that cannot be destroyed is enlarged by the people's fears." It would stand to reason then that if what you were saying was true, his body would immediately and noticeably decrease in size. Did that occur?
Is he stopping the sword or is he stopping "hope?" I am not sure why he'd only be able to stop hope and not fear.Why would stopping sword would stop his body functions? Hope and fear are different concepts. Toshiro didn't stopped miracle itself he stopped a single ability regarding sword. Fear and hope are derived from miracle. Both are different concepts.
I'm not claiming it isn't real, I am claiming it does not literally run on hope and that Gerard was being metaphorical.If you can prove Hoffnung's ability isn't real sure. But merely stating a what if does not prove your point. Please substantiate your claims with actual evidence.
If fear is what enlarges his body, why wouldn't Toshiro be able to stop that fear, thus reversing the enlargement? Under this proposed premise that Gerard was speaking literally.Where does it say his body is reduced? It only mentions an increase in size. This point doesn't work at all. If Gerard said "enlarged and reduced" than yes, but we are only told and shown that his body gets bigger, never smaller. His body being capable of growing does not inherent imply it can shrink, that is a baseless assumption.
Because he did not choose to. There's no contradiction, this is just Pis.If fear is what enlarges his body, why wouldn't Toshiro be able to stop that fear, thus reversing the enlargement? Under this proposed premise that Gerard was speaking literally.
Because the sword only governs hope. And it's Gerard's core that governs his enlargement. So the fact that Gerard came back means that Toshiro didn't freeze his core.Is he stopping the sword or is he stopping "hope?" I am not sure why he'd only be able to stop hope and not fear.
Yes and I'm saying substantiate that claim with evidence rather than just repeating it. We know your claim, you need to provide some kind of evidence, or it's just a claim.I'm not claiming it isn't real, I am claiming it does not literally run on hope and that Gerard was being metaphorical.
Because Toshiro didn't freeze the core, as per what I said earlier in this post.If fear is what enlarges his body, why wouldn't Toshiro be able to stop that fear, thus reversing the enlargement? Under this proposed premise that Gerard was speaking literally.
As it stands, the claim that he is being literally is also just a claim, and I have not seen any evidence to substantiate it. My purpose in pointing out the alternative isn't because I believe it can be definitively proven, rather, that the possibility of it incurs a need to prove the literal interpretation in order to add the ability.Yes and I'm saying substantiate that claim with evidence rather than just repeating it. We know your claim, you need to provide some kind of evidence, or it's just a claim.
No it's not, I substantiated my claim here.As it stands, the claim that he is being literally is also just a claim, and I have not seen any evidence to substantiate it. My purpose in pointing out the alternative isn't because I believe it can be definitively proven, rather, that the possibility of it incurs a need to prove the literal interpretation in order to add the ability.
However, it's rather important that it appears this would not be concept manipulation either way. Having an ability powered by hope isn't concept manipulation.
I don't think the information you provided meaningfully discriminates between the two possibilities, so I don't consider that substantiation.No it's not, I substantiated my claim here.
That's not refutation. That again is just stating an opinion.I don't think the information you provided meaningfully discriminates between the two possibilities, so I don't consider that substantiation.
Arc, he's already explaiend why he disagreed with you. You're trying to invalidate his disagreement by making him search for evidence as to why he doesn't agree with your interpretation and that doesn't make sense. He's looked at the same scans you've provided and he's chosen to read them differently than you have, his evidence is literally your evidence. The difference here is interpretation of the scene.That's not refutation. That again is just stating an opinion.
For example, if I say "the sky is blue" and provide a picture, and someone refutes it by saying "I don't think it's blue that picture could be fake". That is not refutation that is providing an unsubstantiated counter claim. Similarly, I made a claim and provided evidence for it, and your retort was saying "but I think it's metaphorical and don't think you substantiated your claim". That is not a debunk, that is just an unsubstantiated claim.
If you can provide evidence for WHY you don't think chapter 671 meaningfully discriminates between two possibilities, that would be appreciated. However, if you don't care to debate that and want to focus on if the ability is CM3 to begin with then we can do that, and I'll hand it over to Deceived.
In equal interpretation you still have to provide reasoning and evidence for why your interpretation is superior. And Deagonx hasn't. He talked about Toshiro not halting the enlarging ability and Gerard not shrinking, but those have been debunked/proven to be flat out incorrect. So, he hasn't substantiated his side of the interpretation.Arc, he's already explaiend why he disagreed with you. You're trying to invalidate his disagreement by making him search for evidence as to why he doesn't agree with your interpretation and that doesn't make sense. He's looked at the same scans you've provided and he's chosen to read them differently than you have, his evidence is literally your evidence. The difference here is interpretation of the scene.
I gave my full response earlier, but ultimately all either of us have done is state opinions.That's not refutation. That again is just stating an opinion.
The claim that it's literal is also unsubstantiated. Or at least, I don't share your opinion that it is substantiated by the information provided.That is not refutation that is providing an unsubstantiated counter claim. Similarly, I made a claim and provided evidence for it, and your retort was saying "but I think it's metaphorical and don't think you substantiated your claim". That is not a debunk, that is just an unsubstantiated claim.
Yeah, that was provided above.If you can provide evidence for WHY you don't think chapter 671 meaningfully discriminates between two possibilities, that would be appreciated.
Of course its a flawed way to link at debates, at least kinda. Techinally it doesn't matter how you do the debate as long as everyone agrees with by the end of it. But the more important thing I think you should know is that these threads aren't meant to be debates. Upgrade and downgrade threads are only supposed to be evaluations or reevaluations of new or old evidence to make updates to the profiles. Thread Moderators are to evaluate what either the OP or the argument against the OP brings and then state who they agree with in that case. Our roles as thread moderators is not to debate here, we can choose to of course, and most will so its understood where we're coming from but Deagonx has already done so.That's an incredibly flawed way to look at debate. The whole point of this argument is to convince people of interpretations no? Pointing out how Deagons interpretations aren't justified is a fine way of convincing him or others of Arcs side.
Asking Deagon to justify his claims with evidence is not unreasonable at all lmao.
We’ve already explained why this is flawed. Toshiro states he stopped the hope, Gerard agrees he did, AND we see that happen. We aren’t making the claim solely based on the statements. The visuals quite literally show us verbatim exactly what the statement says.If Hoffnung has an ability that he describes (but isn't literally) as being based on hope, and Gerrard has a braggadocios demeanor in talking about it, it would still be very natural for an opponent who disables Hoffnung's ability to say "All of your hope has stopped functioning."
More accurately, you explained why you believe it is flawed. You should recognize the subjectivity involved in a debate more clearly. You are giving me your opinion.We’ve already explained why this is flawed.
Toshiro deactivated his ability, the ability that Gerard refers to often as being based in hope. The ability was indeed deactivated, and Toshiro referred to it as stopping hope. This information does not tell us "hope" is literal. This interaction would still be natural if it was a metaphor.Toshiro states he stopped the hope, Gerard agrees he did, AND we see that happen. We aren’t making the claim solely based on the statements. The visuals quite literally show us verbatim exactly what the statement says.
Well I’m going to wait for what Deceived says about if it’s CM3 at all. Since the debate over literal vs metaphorical would be a further waste of time if it ends up not being CM3 tbh. So, we can put our debate on pause Deagonx.