Bleach — Small Revision

[Maitreya12]

Remind me to never partake in any Bleach thread ever again

 

[KingNanaya]

Remind me to never partake in any Bleach thread ever again

I second this motion

 

[Hellscream]

Remind me to never partake in any Bleach thread ever again

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Before peeps go crazy, reminder this is still a CRT. Do not derail with spam no matter how true

 

[Deagonx]

I checked with @Executor_N0 about the quotation marks around "hope" in the raws and he said this:

Given that Toshiro regarded Gerard with derision prior, I think it's more likely to be joking, and this contributes to it being more metaphorical.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't know the context

Real

 

[Deagonx]

I explained the remainder and he said it's a matter of interpretation. What's important here is that the quotes can be taken as joking, in spite of what was claimed earlier

 

[KazuiK]

I agree with Arc and Deceived. It makes no sense to assume that the explanation of his powers is a metaphor since it is literally his powers.

 

[Malekith]

I checked with @Executor_N0 about the quotation marks around "hope" in the raws and he said this:

Given that Toshiro regarded Gerard with derision prior, I think it's more likely to be joking, and this contributes to it being more metaphorical.

Literally a panel cut and out of context for him to translate doesn't help much

 

[Deagonx]

Literally a panel cut and out of context for him to translate doesn't help much

It was asserted that quotes in Japanese are never used sarcastically, only for emphasis and that such an assertion could only be the result of ignorance of the language. This demonstrates otherwise. That's all.

 

[Malekith]

There certainly is no context in the Japanese language. Anyway I agree with arc's arguments in disagreeing with the OP

 

[KingogKings777]

Disagree with OP and who agreed with him.

 

[Null]

I'll correction the misinterpretation of the lesser conceptual problem, which is a specific fundamental concept or a concept within a certain scope, so it must be complexable and watched out for on a case by case basis, an indication that hope is a concept that is not fundamentally at all, since there's no further mention in the scans and so far the "hope" that has been shown is only channeling power and giving superior effectiveness to the sword. beside that, there's no mention of any fundamental case issues inside it. plus the mechanism of "hope" in hoffnung does not manifest any representation other than to strengthen the hoffnung itself, if we affiliate this into empowerment it will make more sense, because the meaning itself is to strengthen something from outside influences without any control under the user, how it works the hope that channeled power into his blade was also the same as that term.

Empowerment is the ability to strengthen oneself due to various circumstances and outside forces that may or may not be under their control. Unlike Statistics Amplification, empowerment is often involuntary and inherent to each character rather than an activated ability

as an example for that case the eight Lantern Corps are all empowered by the emotion tied to their color

I'll still be against EE tho, you don't give a stamp or sign in every chapter for bringing on point, so it will not be completely refuted, plus it doesn't state that apart from the scans that I gave, the ever victim who hit reiatsu not exist “said” proof stated that they're acknowledged any it's EE other than ashes Tatsuki statement. it's just a self claim. so inferred the evidence you bring is ineffective.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

i think so far we are:

4/5? disagree with OP

and 1/2? agree

 

[Null]

members are not counted in voting btw

 

[Deagonx]

I'll correction the misinterpretation of the lesser conceptual problem, which is a specific fundamental concept or a concept within a certain scope, so it must be complexable and watched out for on a case by case basis, an indication that hope is a concept that is not fundamentally at all, since there's no further mention in the scans and so far the "hope" that has been shown is only channeling power and giving superior effectiveness to the sword. beside that, there's no mention of any fundamental case issues inside it. plus the mechanism of "hope" in hoffnung does not manifest any representation other than to strengthen the hoffnung itself, if we affiliate this into empowerment it will make more sense, because the meaning itself is to strengthen something from outside influences without any control under the user, how it works the hope that channeled power into his blade was also the same as that term.



I'll still be against EE tho, you don't give a stamp or sign in every chapter for bringing on point, so it will not be completely refuted, plus it doesn't state that apart from the scans that I gave, the ever victim who hit reiatsu not exist “said” proof stated that they're acknowledged any it's EE other than ashes Tatsuki statement. it's just a self claim. so inferred the evidence you bring is ineffective.

Yeah, I've asked some other staff to take a look. The concept manip should go for sure, even if what he was saying was literal it wouldn't be concept manip. Having a sword that is literally made of hope is not concept manip. However, I think the accumulated evidence against it being literal is fairly strong.

 

[Null]

Yeah, I've asked some other staff to take a look. The concept manip should go for sure, even if what he was saying was literal it wouldn't be concept manip. Having a sword that is literally made of hope is not concept manip. However, I think the accumulated evidence against it being literal is fairly strong.

Well, you're right, it requires staff with broad insight into conceptual, because the qualifications for now have been tightened

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

members are not counted in voting btw

if i was counting member it would be like 15 disagrees

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Doesn’t Gerard literally say his sword is made of the hopes of the people bundled together?. That sounds like a sword made of the concept of hope. Does that not qualify for concept manipulation?

 

[Deagonx]

Doesn’t Gerard literally say his sword is made of the hopes of the people bundled together?. That sounds like a sword made of the concept of hope. Does that not qualify for concept manipulation?

The literal nature of the statement is in question but no, hope is an emotion. It can be a concept (everything can be a concept) but the involvement of tangible emotion isn't concept manipulation. I drew the comparison of Yellow Lanterns who literally create constructs out of fear, but they do not have concept manip.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'll correction the misinterpretation of the lesser conceptual problem, which is a specific fundamental concept or a concept within a certain scope, so it must be complexable and watched out for on a case by case basis, an indication that hope is a concept that is not fundamentally at all, since there's no further mention in the scans and so far the "hope" that has been shown is only channeling power and giving superior effectiveness to the sword. beside that, there's no mention of any fundamental case issues inside it. plus the mechanism of "hope" in hoffnung does not manifest any representation other than to strengthen the hoffnung itself, if we affiliate this into empowerment it will make more sense, because the meaning itself is to strengthen something from outside influences without any control under the user, how it works the hope that channeled power into his blade was also the same as that term.



I'll still be against EE tho, you don't give a stamp or sign in every chapter for bringing on point, so it will not be completely refuted, plus it doesn't state that apart from the scans that I gave, the ever victim who hit reiatsu not exist “said” proof stated that they're acknowledged any it's EE other than ashes Tatsuki statement. it's just a self claim. so inferred the evidence you bring is ineffective.

Stop twisting the words nowhere in your scans it states Hoffnung got stronger. You are making things up. Saying it's empowerment is complete Headcanon. Mind marking where it was stated Hoffnung gets stronger by hope? Also why you posting FTL?

 

[Null]

Saying it's empowerment is complete Headcanon. Mind marking where it was stated Hoffnung gets stronger by hope?

unfortunately it's the reality, what's more chronic is, assuming hope is a concept and it's not mentioned in the manga I repeatedly repeated this argument

Also why you posting FTL?

Wdym? Don't carelessly accuse me of post FTL I didn't do, steadfastly conducive and consistent on CRT

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

unfortunately it's the reality, what's more chronic is, assuming hope is a concept and it's not mentioned in the manga I repeatedly repeated this argument

You literally posted zero scans for Hoffnung getting stronger by hope. Stop twisting the words in the scan. I dare you to mark and show us where it was stated it's gets stronger.

Wdym? Don't carelessly accuse me of post FTL I didn't do, steadfastly conducive and consistent on CRT

The scan you sent is FTL. It's not Viz translation and even your FTL has no statement which you are refering. You are just making things up which aren't written in the scans. Again I will repeat one more time. Mark the sentence where it was stated Hoffnung gets stronger by emotions.

 

[Null]

The first thing, basically hopes and fears originate from "the miracle". I would elaborate on "the miracle" first so you don't derrail on this topic, at the beginning of the fight here Gerard said that dire or fear is the meaning of "the miracle", then these words prove that he really became big in that case, and not only that, he also stated that size is power means that it implies that his strength is increasing thanks to "the miracle" than before, this literally correlates with the case of hope where this is also derived from "the miracle" contained in the hoffnung itself, it signifies having the same way of working increases the effectiveness of the performance of its power. so it can be concluded that "the miracle" is the only source of Gerard's mainstay of all the abilities he embodies.

your words accusing me of providing FTL scans, not exist basic elaboration at all. when is Gerard FTL?, in profile all I see he is just MHS

 

[Deagonx]

your words accusing me of providing FTL scans, not exist basic elaboration at all. when is Gerard FTL?, in profile all I see he is just MHS

You may be misunderstanding, the meaning of "FTL" here is "fan translation" not "faster than light."

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The first thing, basically hopes and fears originate from "the miracle". I would elaborate on "the miracle" first so you don't derrail on this topic, at the beginning of the fight here Gerard said that dire or fear is the meaning of "the miracle", then these words prove that he really became big in that case, and not only that, he also stated that size is power means that it implies that his strength is increasing thanks to "the miracle" than before, this literally correlates with the case of hope where this is also derived from "the miracle" contained in the hoffnung itself, it signifies having the same way of working increases the effectiveness of the performance of its power. so it can be concluded that "the miracle" is the only source of Gerard's mainstay of all the abilities he embodies.

Both powers derived from Miracle ≠ everything works on same. Hoffnung has different Abilities and Gerard body has different Abilities.

From your argument Don't see anything proving it's done by emotions. Also Toshiro didn't stopped emotions. Why did Gerard states he will stop using supernatural functions? You are failing to tackle 2 characters statements.

your words accusing me of providing FTL scans, not exist basic elaboration at all. when is Gerard FTL?, in profile all I see he is just MHS

Daegonx already explained I guess.

 

[Null]

You may be misunderstanding, the meaning of "FTL" here is "fan translation" not "faster than light."

For that matter, I read on bleachmanga.biz, source chapter 654, 655, 667, 668

 

[Null]

Both powers derived from Miracle ≠ everything works on same. Hoffnung has different Abilities and Gerard body has different Abilities.

Prove again to, your statement by scans if it is really different, also put a stamp statement explanation that hope depends on some supernatural fundamental concept

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Prove again to, your statement by scans if it is really different,

I don't have to its already in his profile. Gerard body has empowerment and Hoffnung has damage reflection power. Gerard body has a core and Hoffnung doesn't. Gerard body is living being and Hoffnung is non living thing.

also put a stamp statement explanation that hope depends on some supernatural fundamental concept

I already posted scans and explained it here and next reply after this Arc also posted scans and explained that. You are just ignoring at this point.

Bleach — Small Revision

Aight chill out guys (Marshadow mainly)

vsbattles.com

 

[Deagonx]

Hoffnung has damage reflection power

Just want to check here. When does Gerard state that Hoffnung reflects damage exactly? You can just post quotes if you like, you don't necessarily need to repost the scans, I just want to ask which statement exactly involves Gerard stating this, from your perspective.

 

[Null]

Bleach — Small Revision

Aight chill out guys (Marshadow mainly)

vsbattles.com

The statement explained that hope is something fundamental in it, don't you understood what I mean?, Toshiro's indication of stopping the hope function is not an explanation of the fundamental concept

Even Toshiro also stated that he didn't idea anything about Gerard's abilities

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The hope can still be something abstract without being a concept fundamental to something such as some sort of unconventional state like a thought or idea

 

[Deagonx]

We don't treat emotions as conceptual by default, though. An ability that is powered by hope isn't assumed to be powered by the concept of hope.

 

[Null]

@BestMGQScalerEver What, the only literal qualification of the concept must be proven that it is a governing concept not only abstract, also even the word "abstract" is not mentioned in the manga or anything, I wasn't saw that.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Just want to check here. When does Gerard state that Hoffnung reflects damage exactly? You can just post quotes if you like, you don't necessarily need to repost the scans, I just want to ask which statement exactly involves Gerard stating this, from your perspective.

It's already in the profile.

Durability Negation, Damage Reflection and Limited Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3; The Hoffnung contains all of the "hope" together in a literal sense[2]. Damaging the blade also reflects it back onto the attacker[3])

@BestMGQScalerEver What, the only literal qualification of the concept must be proven that it is a governing concept not only abstract, also even the word "abstract" is not mentioned in the manga or anything, I wasn't saw that.

There is no need for an direct statement to spoon feed all people. Interpretation and how Abilities are displayed alone is enough to evaluate it.

Also Hope is naturally abstract thing. Proving it's not abstract is your burden.

Getting powered up by emotions and having a function of an thing dependent on abstract concepts like hope are different things. You are trying to mix it up.

Also stop using FTL. You can find the official translation here. Your scans already shows how many mistakes it has it even removed the statement of Supernatural and added something else.

Bleach | TCB Scans

tcbscans.com

 

[Deagonx]

It's already in the profile.

I'm aware, and I've seen the scans. I am asking you to tell me which phrases, in your view, involve Gerard explaining that Hoffnung reflects damages. Not just the entire scan but like, which sentences.

Also Hope is naturally abstract thing.

Not always, some verses treat emotions as tangible things.

 

[Null]

There is no need for an direct statement to spoon feed all people. Interpretation and how Abilities are displayed alone is enough to evaluate it.

Also Hope is naturally abstract thing. Proving it's not abstract is your burden.

Getting powered up by emotions and having a function of an thing dependent on abstract concepts like hope are different things. You are trying to mix it up.

You just talk no gave proof about explanation hope is fundamental concept in a verse, zero proof.

Also stop using FTL. You can find the official translation here. Your scans already shows how many mistakes it has it even removed the statement of Supernatural and added something else.

Bleach | TCB Scans

tcbscans.com

If you know the official one, you should make accurate corrections and refute my FTL argument with the official scans that you brought, where is the point of the mistake in the translation?, what toshiro said is also the same as the scans that I brought, in fact what you brought is more it is clearly evident that toshiro doesn't know anything about what i am saying here.

Even Toshiro also stated that he didn't idea anything about Gerard's abilities

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'm aware, and I've seen the scans. I am asking you to tell me which phrases, in your view, involve Gerard explaining that Hoffnung reflects damages. Not just the entire scan but like, which sentences.

I said Hoffnung and Gerard body having different functions. I don't remember saying His explanation has anything to do with it.

Not always, some verses treat emotions as tangible things.

Can you give some examples I want to see how many of the verses relates to our current situation. It might help all of us to get into a conclusion.

You just talk no gave proof about explanation hope is fundamental concept in a verse, zero proof.

Do you even know Difference between CM type 3 and type 2/1? Why would Hope needs to be fundamental concepts of the verse ? CM type 3 is dependent on single objects not verse or reality itself. You should take your time and read what's written in Conceptual Manipulation page and make threads like this. This reply of your already shows you are talking about things which you have no idea about.

If you know the official one, you should make accurate corrections and refute my FTL argument with the official scans that you brought, where is the point of the error in the translation?, what toshiro said is also the same as the scans that I brought, in fact what you brought is more it is clearly evident that toshiro doesn't know anything about what i am saying here.

I already explained how Your FTL has no statement of Supernatural and Official has that. Also I did refute your arguments. Just appeal to your ignorance. I am not gonna repeat again and again.

 

[Deagonx]

I said Hoffnung and Gerard body having different functions. I don't remember saying His explanation has anything to do with it.

I'm not asking about the difference between Hoffnung and Gerard's body. I am asking you where Gerard stated that Hoffnung reflects damage.

Can you give some examples I want to see how many of the verses relates to our current situation. It might help all of us to get into a conclusion.

DC strikes me as the most obvious example, but many verses with "Empathetic Manipulation" and "Fear Manipulation" will demonstrate that.

 

[Null]

Do you even know Difference between CM type 3 and type 2/1? Why would Hope needs to be fundamental concepts of the verse ? CM type 3 is dependent on single objects not verse or reality itself. You should take your time and read what's written in Conceptual Manipulation page and make threads like this. This reply of your already shows you are talking about things which you have no idea about.

I'll correction the misinterpretation of the lesser conceptual problem, which is a specific fundamental concept or a concept within a certain scope, so it must be complexable and watched out for on a case by case basis, an indication that hope is a concept that is not fundamentally at all, since there's no further mention in the scans and so far the "hope" that has been shown

Go again read this, I didn't say fundamental in the sense rolw of governing the entire universe, but what I meant by my sentence is that the verse/fiction/manga doesn't mention that concept as fundamental governing in a certain scope as I explained before, don't twist my words.

also you have to understand the fundamental also having multiple interpretations

I already explained how Your FTL has no statement of Supernatural and Official has that. Also I did refute your arguments. Just appeal to your ignorance. I am not gonna repeat again and again.

From the scans of Toshiro that I present, there is no difference in meaning in the subjective case from what you present