Bleach Revisions

[MachTwo]

You mean the rank that only change when Yammy transform aka when he supposed has become stronger than most espada? the same rank that according to discussion in here disappeared when Ulquiorra in his R2?

Btw a question, why most of you haven't realized (some of you is literally have panic attack) that Segunda never scale below the espada? aren't you guys got that pdf like quite a long time before that massive scaling thread was created? I didn't even participate in that thread and only recently see how thing turns out yet how I have better understanding on how the scaling works.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The rank disappears for everyone but Yammy, the only guy whose rank changes. If Ulq is now stronger than other ranks above him, why does he not have a new number like Yammy?

Have you seen what Sigurd (I think it was) said on the last CRT? The people who made the CRTs don’t necessarily push for what they think is right or even mention the possibility because people won’t agree with it. It also doesn’t matter what the current scaling is when it’s wrong. Everything says Yammy > SE but people refuse to accept it for whatever invalid reason.

 

[MachTwo]

Simple answer to that was he outside the espada ranking system, especially with how much anti feats/poor performance Yammy has shown

Ahh so you just agree with them without asking, or giving a feedback to an potential flaw within the scaling, glad i didn't do that.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

No. Stop saying that and actually prove it. Your only argument hinges on the fact that his Number disappears when this is the case for every Espada bar Yammy, the only one whose rank changes.

People put forth a CRT that is more accurate than what was already in place so yes, I do agree with it over the previous scaling. That doesn’t mean I think it’s perfect and infallible, especially when I didn’t have the scans on me to support my argument.

Three databook scans saying Yammy is the strongest and one even mentioning Ulquiorra by name, not just saying Espada.

 

[MachTwo]

Prove what? I already did and even bring you the scans and while explaining Segunda is unique in this category and outside of the general scaling or knowledge from the espada and how scaling Yammy make zero sense compared to what has been show in the manga, just like his number.

Btw numbers is never my argument in the first place, you is the one who brought it to my face. You confused me with damage who was previously dealing with this numbers argument.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

You said Aizen knew about it but excluded SE from the ranking system. You never proved this. I already brought up that no number position for any Espada can be seen in Resurrección besides Yammy, Harribel and Ulquiorra, and only Yammy’s number is still there. By your logic, no Espada is bound by the rankings once they enter Resurrección. All you have been giving is your opinion with nothing to support it besides out of context scans.

I never said it was, I brought up the fact that a form Aizen knew about was reflected by a change in rank. Why did he only do this for Yammy and not Ulquiorra? You need to prove he specifically excluded SE from Espada ranks which you haven’t done. Whatever Damage was arguing against doesn’t matter when I am bringing up points that directly go against your baseless assertions.

Every single thing you brought up is completely irrelevant seeing as Kenny, Byakuya, Ichigo etc all exist in a vacuum or scale to people far stronger than Ulquiorra so those mean nothing and Rukia harming him was sarcasm. You only need to read the following page to tell that.

 

[Damage3245]

@AnonymousBlank; it's the simple answer to that, that Aizen did not know about the Segunda Etapa just like Ulquiorra claimed?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Ulq said he didn’t show Aizen the form not that he didn’t know about it. That’s also a character statement which is limited by their own knowledge while Aizen telling Ichigo how he planned everything showed SE on panel.

Mach is also saying that Aizen does know about it but randomly excluded it from the rankings.

 

[MachTwo]

Did you miss my scan when Aizen literally told that to Ichigo? and how he even knew About Ichigo new transformation? or when later he disappointed and say to ichigo that he should stronger than he is right now? Not like this will change fact that yammy have no feats to back up his hype, l like how you only focus on 1 of my argument while ignoring the elephant in the room.

And btw you are the one who insist with this numbers thiggy when yammy have no feats to back up his hype, your only argument about is:
>>Yammy may have half dozen poor feats on his side but he has this one feats where he can tank attack from 50% hollow ichigo, 100% hollow ichigo can injure FKTA Aizen therebefore Yammy stronk

See above why this make no sense whatsoever, btw did Ulquiorra say something about numbers 4 or above espada shouldn't go all out with Res while they are within las noches? after seeing what Ulquiorra can do in his fight vs Ichigo, mainly how much damage they did to las noches, I can see why Aizen do this. Except for you know Yammy who once again didn't live up to his hype.

 

[Damage3245]

I think it's fair to say that Aizen wasn't literally watching the battle between Ichigo and Ulquiorra. The panel of Ulquiorra showing up in that moment doesn't mean anything; it's not like Aizen was literally showing the panels to Ichigo like a recording.

Aizen saying he should be stronger, and the he should have gained a greater power is indicative of his expectations - not that he was watching the fight unfold.

EDIT: The most I'd feel comfortable is giving Yammy a "possibly" ranking, because it definitely isn't clear-cut to me that he scales above Ulquiorra's 2nd Transformation.

 

[Makstar05]

Ulquiorra only said that he didn’t show R2 to Aizen that doesn’t mean Aizen is unaware of it.Aizen,the man who knows and has even seen the SK’s condition even tho the Royal Palace is inaccessible to anyone other than Squad 0,is oblivious to his underling’s second release??

 

[MachTwo]

That isn't too important for the current discussion right now or at least for now

Right now my point is Yammy have no support for side since he has no good feats and only have:
>>Claim from databook or somewhere else: As I say above can be interpreted difrently due to his unique ability within the espada
I never denied that Yammy>>>Espada if you give him time to power up.
>>Literally him hyping himself: He have history of can't tell how powerful his opponent are, evidently when he change at ichigo only to get treated like a clown
(For a moment anyway, you know what happen next)

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@MachTwo
Maybe you haven’t realised considering your head is still up your ass. Yammy has no antifeats.

• He was mocking Rukia.
• Kenny already scales to harming someone more durable than Yammy.
• Byakuya exists in a vacuum besides scaling to Kenny.
• Ichigo exists in a vacuum besides harming Aizen with a hit twice as strong.
• Yammy is blatantly a stonewall so Ichigo not getting harmed means nothing.
• Yammy is stated to be the strongest multiple times in the manga, novels and data books.

“No feats” is blatantly wrong but sure, let’s go with that for now. Take note of how he also has no anti feats, all of the statements and the narrative saying he is the strongest. Even when Ichigo comes down from the canopy and Yammy calls the rest of the Espada he fought trash compared to him, Ichigo doesn’t even disagree and says I don’t care, Imma still slap you.

Grimmjow and Ulq also said that Gran Rey Cero would destroy LN but look what happened there. Oh wow, arguing DC rather than AP as usual. You know for a fact that this argument doesn’t stand so go back to comicvine where they actually think like that.

@Damage3245
Didn’t say he was actually watching the fight or showing Ichigo the fight. The point is that he said Ichigo should be stronger than what he was showing. Why would Ichigo be stronger from just fighting R1 Ulq when he never shows such growth in any other fight? Aizen himself knows Ichigo is gunning for Ulq as he is the strongest Espada in LN that Ichigo is aware of but he also knows that Yammy is also there and stronger than R1 Ulq (which is apparently all he is aware of). So let’s look at what can be concluded from the arguments presented

• Ichigo who amped from fighting SE is not as strong as Aizen intended/expected.
• This implies that something else should have made him stronger than just fighting Ulq R1.
• If Aizen is unaware of SE, what is left in Las Noches that could make Ichigo grow even more? Maybe, and hear me out for a sec, just maybe Aizen had expected Ichigo to fight Yammy much like he was planning on doing before Byakuya told him to piss off to Karakura.
• Conclusion being that an Ichigo who ends up beating Yammy before going to Karakura would have been stronger than the one who woke up from beating SE Ulq (Yammy > SE Ulq)
• This is also supported by the fact that Aizen was wary of Kenny who no diffed Yammy as a side effect of fighting Byakuya.

And since people seem to be forgetting, lemme also bring up the fact that this argument is based solely on the manga and doesn’t even bother with the data books which are the primary part of my argument. Those blatantly say that Yammy is the strongest Espada and stronger than Ulquiorra by name. Yammy has no antifeats and has multiple statements of being stronger. Maybe someone can address that besides Mach “Yammy doesn’t live up to his hype” Two who can only spew his head canon on the matter.

 

[MachTwo]

Oh very nais, starting to losing patience aren't you so now you start trying to throw personal which I haven't done so far, anyway.
>>>He was mocking Rukia.
So he say she hurting mean=He was mocking rukia? It's actually much better if you says this just one of the case where
Kubo forgot when Yammy literally says she hurt him.

>>>Kenny and Byakuya
Hurting Nnoitra it's not that big of a deal, even Nel can do that and she can't even fight property due to her rapidly losing her power
If anything that just prove that their AP>>Durability Heck at least Zaraki respect Nnoitra, he and byakuya didn't even pay attention to Yammy

>>>Ichigo exists in a vacuum besides harming Aizen with a hit twice as strong.
Ichigo says there are something wrong with his hollow mask, this is ichigo who can tank and match yammy AP in his bankai
Beside you implied that R1 Yammy is somewhat as strong as FKTA Aizen, and R2 Yammy (R2 Yammy have 2x multi) will be as strong as Aizen
Make no sense whatsoever, Aizen scale to old man Yama who scale far above any version of Zaraki and Byakuya sans their Post Training

>>>Yammy is blatantly a stonewall
Yammy blatantly cant do shit to ichigo, he block his Punch, slice his bala and cancel his Cero Oscuras.

>>>Yammy is stated to be the strongest multiple times in the manga, novels and data books.
Doesn't contradict with anything really, he get stronger via rage he has the potential to be the strongest, he just haven't reach that level by the time of his death

>>GRC
This is what happened, Ichigo cancel it when Grimmjow use it on him, after that he never do that again, Ulq never use GRC, he uses Oscuras which cause fk tons of damage outside Las Noches.

 

[Damage3245]

• Conclusion being that an Ichigo who ends up beating Yammy before going to Karakura would have been stronger than the one who woke up from beating SE Ulq (Yammy > SE Ulq)

I don't see how this follows your earlier points. The Ichigo who woke up from beating SE Ulq does not scale to SE Ulq.

This is also straying into too speculative territory.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think it's important to note that SE Ulq matched 50% Full Hollow Ichigo with a cero oscuras, which is about 10 times stronger than his regular cero. So 50% FH Ichigo's normal ceros are at least 10x stronger than SE Ulquiorra's normal ceros. That gives us a rough ballpark of 50% FH Ichigo should be about 10x SE Ulq if Ulq needs an attack the boosts his cero's power by an order of magnitude to match Ichigo's. Angry Res Yammy ~ 30% Cien and 50% FH Ichigo ~ 70% Cien that would make 50% FH Ichigo roughly twice as strong as Yammy, whilst he is likely 10x stronger than SE Ulq for reasons I stated above. Which would be in line with Yammy > SE Ulq.

50% FH Ichigo's Cero ~ SE Ulq's Cero Oscuras = 10x SE Ulq's Cero
50% FH Ichigo's Cero ~ 10x SE Ulq's Cero -> 50% FH Ichigo's baseline power = 10x SE Ulq's baseline power
Angry Res Yammy ~ 30% Cien, 50% FH Ichigo ~ 70% Cien -> 50% FH Ichigo = 2.33x Angry Res Yammy
Angry Res Yammy > SE Ulq

 

[MachTwo]

Yeah but, Ichigo cannot use Orcuras, I'm all for 10x multi if he can use it lol.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah but, Ichigo cannot use Orcuras, I'm all for 10x multi if he can use it lol.

No no you miss my point, I'm saying since SE Ulq needs a 10x cero to match 50% FH Ichigo's cero, 50% FH Ichigo should be about 10x SE Ulq. And since Angry Res Yammy is roughly on par with 30% Cien and 50% FH Ichigo is in the same tier as 70% Cien, then 50% FH Ichigo should be about 2.33x Angry Res Yammy. Conclusion being Angry Res Yammy > SE Ulq in terms of baseline power.

SE Ulq's Cero Oscuras shouldn't scale to his physicals since it's an amped Cero on the order of about 10x. I feel like we currently have SE Ulquiorra just in general equal to his Cero Oscuras calc, when it should be SE Ulqiorra is X, Y with Cero Oscuras.

 

[MachTwo]

Why tho, Aizen already expect ichigo to be Zangetsu possessed Strong (or you guys call him Vasto Ichigo), but when he fought Ichigo in his 100% bankai form he said he was disappointed Ichigo can only be this strong, where he should be even stronger.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Why tho, Aizen already expect ichigo to be Zangetsu possessed Strong (or you guys call him Vasto Ichigo), but when he fought Ichigo in his 100% bankai form he said he was disappointed Ichigo can only be this strong, where he should be even stronger.

I'm confused at what you're getting at here but Aizen being disappointed in Ichigo doesn't disprove anything I said. Aizen after all is stronger than all of the Espada.

 

[MachTwo]

Aizen already expect ichigo to be Zangetsu possessed Strong since he sense Ichigo when Ichigo attain that form.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@MachTwo
Once again ignoring context. He says “ow that hurt so much my hand slipped” and ******* yeeted her midget ass into the desert. That is sarcasm. The only thing he did was flinch from a gnat hitting his eye. That doesn’t mean the gnat hurt him.

Nnoitra has the strongest Hierro. If you are just going to blatantly disregard evidence just because you don’t actually have an argument beyond your opinion, sit down, shut up and take notes.

Oh look, you use someone who also exists in a vacuum as an anti feat. Do you even know how antifeats work?

His Mask feeling heavy is irrelevant. Unless you can prove that it isn’t doing it’s job, then you are just bringing up random tangents.

I didn’t imply anything of the sort. Yammy is dozens of times weaker than Aizen. Only their durability would be somewhat comparable hence him being a stone wall.

And there you go ignoring shit to suit your narrative again. Yammy is simply stated to be the strongest. End of story. Not “he will become the strongest” or “he can potentially become the strongest” but “he is the strongest”.

Cancelled? Ichigo smacked it with his sword. Where is the cancelling part? Could it be that you are saying that even though X is stated to do something but didn’t visually show it, X’s description is still perfectly valid? Weird then how you disagree with Yammy being the strongest despite that being his description all the while using the very subjective reasoning that he “didn’t live up to his hype” for why you don’t agree with the description.

My point in bringing up GRC is that it blatantly didn’t show the inferred DC but we still accept it as having that level of AP so all of your arguments of Ulq performing greater DC doesn’t mean shit. Do try to keep up.

@Damage3245
Ichigo post SE scales above SE. Aizen > SE and Ichigo can harm Aizen.

So speculation is bad but speculating and ignoring valid scans is okay? Weird standards but sure.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Aizen already expect ichigo to be Zangetsu possessed Strong since he sense Ichigo when Ichigo attain that form.

I agree, Aizen did expect Ichigo running the Arrancar gauntlet to make him stronger, and it did, but Ichigo still wasn't as strong as Aizen. This doesn't disprove my point, although at this point I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me or just ignoring my earlier post's points.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

50% FH Ichigo's Cero ~ SE Ulq's Cero Oscuras = 10x SE Ulq's Cero
50% FH Ichigo's Cero ~ 10x SE Ulq's Cero -> 50% FH Ichigo's baseline power = 10x SE Ulq's baseline power
Angry Res Yammy ~ 30% Cien, 50% FH Ichigo ~ 70% Cien -> 50% FH Ichigo = 2.33x Angry Res Yammy
Angry Res Yammy > SE Ulq's baseline power

SE Ulq's Cero Oscuras shouldn't scale to his physicals since it's an amped Cero on the order of about 10x. I feel like we currently have SE Ulquiorra just in general equal to his Cero Oscuras calc, when it should be SE Ulqiorra is X, Y with Cero Oscuras.

@Damage3245 curious about your thoughts on this? Also, if someone more familiar with SAFWY wants to clarify my little scaling chain that'd be great.

 

[Purgy]

Yammy was never said to be equal to 30% Cien, just that 30% Cien was above Yammy, so now that I think about it, that statement means literally nothing and Yammy could theoretically be 1% of Cien and the statement would still be true.

Basically, the statement isn't proof of anything beyond Yammy is somewhere below 30% Cien.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yammy was never said to be equal to 30% Cien, just that 30% Cien was above Yammy, so now that I think about it, that statement means literally nothing and Yammy could theoretically be 1% of Cien and the statement would still be true.

Basically, the statement isn't proof of anything beyond Yammy is somewhere below 30% Cien.

I'd argue then why bring up a specific percent of Cien's power if Yammy wasn't comparable to it at all. Like if Yammy was only 1% of Cien's power why not just say that opposed to 30% Cien is stronger than Yammy. I feel like this statement is implying Yammy is at least comparable to 30% Cien even if he doesn't scale fully, Yammy would have to be less than 7% of Cien to be weaker than SE Ulq's baseline power.

By that same argument Yammy could be 29.9999999999999999999% Cien and that statement would also still be true.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; I don't really know enough about Cien to comment on that. I don't think I've read those novels.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; I don't really know enough about Cien to comment on that. I don't think I've read those novels.

Fair enough, what about my suggestion for how SE Ulquiorra should be tiered: X, Y with Cero Oscuras. Where Y scales from 50% FH Ichigo and their cero class, and X scales 10x below that.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm surprised we don't already have that on his profile. Though wasn't his Ceor Oscuras overpowered by Ichigo? So scaling it to be Ichigo's equal doesn't seem quite right.

 

[Purgy]

I'd argue then why bring up a specific percent of Cien's power if Yammy wasn't comparable to it at all. Like if Yammy was only 1% of Cien's power why not just say that opposed to 30% Cien is stronger than Yammy. I feel like this statement is implying Yammy is at least comparable to 30% Cien even if he doesn't scale fully, Yammy would have to be less than 7% of Cien to be weaker than SE Ulq's baseline power.

By that same argument Yammy could be 29.9999999999999999999% Cien and that statement would also still be true.

Because that's how much power Cien had at that specific point in time, you'd need to read the novel to understand but I'll try to explain.

Basically Cien starts off at 30% of his original power in his prime, so he goes around collecting parts of Szayelaporro throughout the novel that slowly returns him to his former power.

Mayuri compares Cien's power whilst he's at 30% to Res Yammy's power and states 30% Cien is above Res Yammy, he doesn't just conclude that 30% Cien is slightly above Yammy, rather his sample is literally of 30% Cien, if that makes sense.

Yes, it could be anywhere from 1% to 29%, but that'll never be accepted because it's a complete guess.

 

[MachTwo]

>>Yada3 YammyXxxRukia
Alright then

>>>Nnoitra has the strongest Hierro. If you are just going to blatantly disregard evidence just because you don’t actually have an argument beyond your opinion, sit down, shut up and take notes.

So you going to blatantly disregard evidence of it not a big of a deal to damage Nnoitra? him having strongest Hierro(not include SE of course) wont mean he will have superior DF compared to all of the espada AP, Nel prove this to be not the case, and shes in pretty shit condision
It just prove theit AP>>DF, this wont contradict since recently we just apporve that RC is not equal to AP and DF, except if you are A quincy

>>>Oh look, you use someone who also exists in a vacuum as an anti feat. Do you even know how anti feats work?

Hmm..So you have nothing to say in here, okay.

>>>His Mask feeling heavy is irrelevant. Unless you can prove that it isn’t doing it’s job, then you are just bringing up random tangents.

Evidently it is, Yammy attack didn't do shit to him and Ichigo even match Yammy own AP

>>>stone wall.

Seems like I misread what the hell is stone wall is, me engrish bad, however he still get annihilated by Zaraki and Byakuya who has no issue to break his Hierro.
These two is league below Old man Yama who scales to FKTA Aizen, lets see:
>As is powerfull enought to steal Byakuya bankai while old man one ''almost'' shotted As and his friend
>Zaraki is a massive disappointment for Royd, while Shikai yama can harm Royd
>Both Zaraki and Byakuya, weaker version of Zaraki and Byakuya destroyed Yammy

>>>And there you go ignoring shit to suit your narrative again. Yammy is simply stated to be the strongest. End of story. Not “he will become the strongest” or “he can potentially become the strongest” but “he is the strongest”.

Evidently he's not, he has uniqe ability to become the strongest under the right circumstance, he by the time of his death have nothing to claim that title.

>>Cancelled? Ichigo smacked it with his sword

Yes that was i mean, he still cause damage to the surrounding and likely will have done more if ichigo didn't do anything, did you not notice the spatial distortion thiggy kinda stop on its track instead of go past las noches outer wall or something like that

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm surprised we don't already have that on his profile. Though wasn't his Cero Oscuras overpowered by Ichigo? So scaling it to be Ichigo's equal doesn't seem quite right.

I think currently the compromise was 75/25, since Ichigo's Cero "swallowed" SE Ulq's Cero Oscuras. Cero Oscuras was enough to block Ichigo's normal Cero so it should somewhat scale. Which would mean:
50% FH Ichigo ~ 3x SE Ulq's Oscuras -> 50% FH Ichigo ~ 30x SE Ulq's baseline power
So it SE Ulq would be X, Y with Cero Oscuras, where Y is about 1/3 of 50% FH Ichigo and X is 10x less than that.

Looking at the numbers from the calc, SE Ulq's tier would read as follows: 6-B, High 6-B with Cero Oscuras.

 

[MachTwo]

I agree, Aizen did expect Ichigo running the Arrancar gauntlet to make him stronger, and it did, but Ichigo still wasn't as strong as Aizen. This doesn't disprove my point, although at this point I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me or just ignoring my earlier post's points.

Wait wat, when did Aizen say Ichigo need to be Aizen stronk at that point? what he say is he should stronger than this based on info Aizen have on his fight vs SE.

 

[Purgy]

Looking at the numbers from the calc, SE Ulq's tier would read as follows: 6-B, High 6-B with Cero Oscuras.

His tier would just be High 6-B, we don't separate his AP like that

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

His tier would just be High 6-B, we don't separate his AP like that

We currently don't but maybe we should, unless there's a reason why we don't that I'm just not privy to.

 

[MachTwo]

Cien doesn't have profile(and outside the scaling) because scaling team didn't have the original raw info about the novel, so they can make sure if the fan translation is correct or not

At least that what I get when I ask em

 

[Damage3245]

His tier would just be High 6-B, we don't separate his AP like that

We do separate AP for certain abilities / techniques / forms within the same key.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Seeing how BBS is going to be doing Bleach novel collabs, I think it is very likely for us to get official translations for those novels. So, maybe we could just apply the ratings to SE Ulq, FH Ichigo, Aizen, Shikai Yama, Isshin, and maybe Kisuke and Yoruichi with the armor. Because they all directly scale to Aizen who scales above SE Ulq concretely. I say this because I think that the novel's statement comparing Cien to FH Ichigo and Yammy could be really useful here.

 

[Purgy]

We currently don't but maybe we should, unless there's a reason why we don't that I'm just not privy to.

Ulquiorra was able to damage Ichigo with his attacks and Ichigo pretty much tanked Cero Oscuras outside of his mask breaking.

We do separate AP for certain abilities / techniques / forms within the same key.

We do for some profiles yes, just not for Ulquiorra as far as I can see.

 

[MachTwo]

Did we actually agree with 75/25? Is this alright or it will get taken down in the future because no one else did this.