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Bleach Revisions

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>>Yammy only gets 10 times stronger after he uses his Resurrection
If databook says so then sure, we use 10 times multi for his first Resurrection if there are no contradiction to this, like we are using info from databook for his Rage form.
2x multi from rage form isn't stated anywhere in manga.
 
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Yeah this will be tripost...
Urahara, Shunko Armored Yoruichi and Isshin scale to Aizen, idk if they will scale to Chrysalis because Chrysalis Aizen only troling around and they never really damage him
all they did was damage his outer layer of coocon thinggy

Gin. Gin have like 10 times multi with Buto Renjin. he scale to whaever hollow ichigo scale to since hes in canon beat him. However for post Chrysalis Aizen.
At that time aizen isn't trying to fight and clearly letting his guard down, beside at this point Aizen is super arrogant

I disagree with Zaraki and Byakuya scale to SE if you only using this they scale to Yammy who scales above SE
Right now the scaling for Rage form Yammy is, he will scale to FKTA Aizen, litettly the same level at him
who is funnily enough contradict with What Aizen Says about him superior to Espada.

Wonderweiss is super weird, but it pretty clear as day he's no match for Yama. Like he will die in 1 punch if not for his regen, i don't think he scale.
Although Res Wonderweiss himself scale to nobody, like no one fighting him in his Res other than Yama and maybe Kensei who probably lost the fight due to we dont see him around and we know he fighting Wonderweiss in base form. Its not a big deal for Wonderweiss to scale to Yama, not really affecting anyone.
 
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Aizen and Yama and the other who scale to them shouldn't be brought here because base Aizen was still above tokinada so no need to discuss there scaling here
 
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Aizen and Yama and the other who scale to them shouldn't be brought here because base Aizen was still above tokinada so no need to discuss there scaling here
This is actually really dumb scaling, why tokinada has higher Tier than Yama and Aizen, or why Base Bazz B have higher Tier than Yama
Tokinada stated hes inferior to base Aizen and Yama while Bazz B only partially cancel yama flames (he still took damage from it)
 
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My biggest issue is that both the Yammy statements and the Aizen scaling depend on both of those characters knowing about Ulquiorra's secret 2nd Resureccion and are comparing themselves to it.

Despite the fact that from Ulquiorra's point of view, his hidden transformation is a big secret that he hasn't even shown it to Aizen, his boss, yet.

Aizen is not completely all-knowing. He could consider himself superior to all of the Espada and still not know about Ulquiorra's 2nd transformation.

Also, don't the databooks have some other statements like how Yammy only gets 10 times stronger after he uses his Resureccion? Do we accept that the gap between an unreleased Yammy and a released Starrk or R2 Ulquiorra is less than ten times?
The Yammy statements some of them are from a narrator in the case of databooks. Also, we are never told that the rankings for the Espada only apply to their base and Res forms, I don't know where that came from. So while you can argue SE Ulq isn't bound by the rankings that's an assumption.

Gin says Aizen only successfully ruled over the Arrancar because he was stronger. Aizen being one of the smartest characters in the entire series, believes himself to be well above the Espada. When Aizen says all of Ichigo battles played out in the palm of his hands, we are shown an image of SE Ulq, which implies Aizen knew about Ulq's true power. To say Aizen didn't know about SE, would imply that Ulquiorra could pull a fast one over Aizen. I feel like you need stronger evidence to say SE Ulq > Aizen. Considering how we've displayed a plethora of statements and images that imply Aizen > SE Ulq, and your argument is "maybe Aizen didn't know how strong SE Ulq is" I feel like most if not everyone agrees with me that Aizen > Espadas. The anime even goes as far to say Aizen > all Espadas combined iirc. Everyone with the colored boxes under their names that have weighed in except you also seems to agree Aizen > Espada.

Aizen's narrative is that of attaining a power that defies all logic and reason. So the narrative supports Aizen > Espada as well.

Being that Yammy's Res being only 10x is contradicted by the manga, I'd think we'd invalidate that databook statement as we approach databook statements case by case.
 
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Btw you guys arguing 50% Hollow Mask Bankai = Can barely hurt R1 Yammy
Yammy get additional 2X multi in his rage form and he still power up after that via getting more angry (he become bigger)
100% Hollow Mask Bankai = Can hurt FKTA Aizen
So FKTA Aizen will be equal to rage form Yammy
Yet also arguing that FKTA Aizen is superior to all Espada? so which one is true?
 
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Btw you guys arguing 50% Hollow Mask Bankai = Can barely hurt R1 Yammy
Yammy get additional 2X multi in his rage form and he still power up after that via getting more angry (he become bigger)
100% Hollow Mask Bankai = Can hurt FKTA Aizen
So FKTA Aizen will be equal to rage form Yammy
Yet also arguing that FKTA Aizen is superior to all Espada? so which one is true?
50% Hollow Mask Ichigo knocked Yammy to the ground, released his Hollow Mask because he was depressed, and then got smacked by Yammy.

Also FKT Aizen > 100% Hollow Mask Ichigo.

So Aizen > 100% Hollow Mask Ichigo >= Angry Res Yammy > the rest of the Espada, therefore Aizen > the Espada.
 
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50% Hollow Mask Ichigo barely hurt Res 1 Yammy
100% Hollow Mask hurt Aizen for good
Also, you said 30% Cien = Rage form Yammy
So basically Cien scale above, same goes for Zaraki when he fight Cien
 
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50% Hollow Mask Ichigo barely hurt Res 1 Yammy
100% Hollow Mask hurt him for good
Also, you said 30% Cien = Rage form Yammy
So basically Cien scale above, same goes for Zaraki when he fight Cien
100% Hollow Mask Ichigo never fought Yammy.

50% Hollow Mask Ichigo knocked Yammy off his feet, and only got smacked after releasing the mask.

Also 30% Cien = Angry Res Yammy got debunked.
 
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I never said 100% Hollow Mask Ichigo fought Yammy.
50% Hollow Mask Ichigo fire getsuga at yammy and it barely hurt Res 1 Yammy. Rage form Yammy is 2x Res yammy
100% Hollow Mask Ichigo fire getsuga at Aizen and he hurt him pretty bad.

About Cien, Why? you waiting for translation? if so ok then.
 

Damage3245

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@MachTwo; it's worth noting that Aizen, unlike Yammy, doesn't have Hierro to protect him.

It is possible for Aizen to be more powerful than Yammy yet be unable to take a hit from Ichigo as well as him.
 
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I never said 100% Hollow Mask Ichigo fought Yammy.
50% Hollow Mask Ichigo fire getsuga at yammy and it barely hurt Res 1 Yammy
100% Hollow Mask Ichigo fire getsuga at Aizen and he hurt him pretty bad.

About Cien, Why? you waiting for translation? if so ok then.
Purgy debunked the Cien thing.

The size of the wound on Yammy is technically larger than the one on Aizen lol. Yammy is just massive.

Hollows also have some speedy regen.
 
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Yes, but that defeat the purpose of him saying he's superior to all of them
He's not really if yammy have higher durability than him, that and you can use Hierro to attack since it harder their skin
maybe wont scale as much of their dura but that was an option.

@Arc7Kuroi Yes but Yammy is much bigger than Aizen, proportionally he's receive lesser wound
Cien, this is what he say:
Yammy was never said to be equal to 30% Cien, just that 30% Cien was above Yammy
 
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Yes, but that defeat the purpose of him saying he's superior to all of them
He's not really if yammy have higher durability than him, that and you can use Hierro to attack since it harder their skin
maybe wont scale as much of their dura but that was an option.

@Arc7Kuroi Yes but Yammy is much bigger than Aizen, proportionally he's receive lesser wound
Cien, this is what he say:
Yammy was never said to be equal to 30% Cien, just that 30% Cien was above Yammy
But the size of Ichigo's attack didn't change, the wound size would only be comparable if the size of the attack against Yammy was proportionally the same as the one against Aizen.

Base Bankai Ichigo blocked a swing from Res Yammy. Ichigo also claims he can crush Yammy with raw strength and Ichigo is quite the capable sensory boy.
 
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Base Bankai Ichigo blocked a swing from Res Yammy. Ichigo also claims he can crush Yammy with raw strength and Ichigo is quite the capable sensory boy.

Yes, i agree, never disagree with it what I am confused is how hollow bankai Ichigo cant do much damage to him, I mean i have an asnwer for that
And also Zaraki and Byakuya have no issue with hurting Yammy, so they scale above Aizen too in AP.
 
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Yes, i agree, never disagree with it what I am confused is how hollow bankai Ichigo cant do much damage to him, I mean i have an asnwer for that
And also Zaraki and Byakuya have no issue with hurting Yammy, so they scale above Aizen too in AP.
Ichigo didn't have a hard time with Yammy, he literally slammed Yammy into the ground extremely casually.

I mean Aizen was cautious of Kenpachi and Bankai Byakuya scales to Kenpachi but they wouldn't scale above Aizen for beating Yammy.

I'm going to redrop the scaling chain list since we have started a new page lol.
 
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Ichigo didn't have a hard time with Yammy, he literally slammed Yammy into the ground extremely casually.

I mean Aizen was cautious of Kenpachi and Bankai Byakuya scales to Kenpachi but they wouldn't scale above Aizen for beating Yammy.
Oh yeah Nnoitra have better Hierro than Yammy, and hes human size, He scale above Aizen in DF?
Not much superior to all Espada when there are 2 dude harder to damage than you.
 
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>>Ichigo didn't have a hard time with Yammy, he literally slammed Yammy into the ground extremely casually.
He barerly injure him according to Yammy. also do you Agree Nnoitra have better DF than Aizen or not?
 

Damage3245

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@Arc7Kuroi; the characters you've listed, are you sure they're the only ones scaling? What about anyone post-timeskip?
 
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Damage wanted a list of people affected and for what reason, from what I gathered here they are part 2:
  • Res Yammy and Angry Res Yammy (multiple databook, novel, and manga statements saying he's stronger than SE Ulq, survived a Getsuga from Post res Hollow Mask Ichigo at half power) Damage disagrees but Shadow and Mitch (I think are staff members) seem to agree along with everyone else
  • Aizen (stronger than all the Espada) Damage disagrees but Shadow and Mitch (I think are staff members) agree along with everyone else
  • Post resurrection Hollow Mask Ichigo (damaged Yammy at half power, damaged Aizen at full power) Ichigo overwhelmed Yammy and cut Aizen (albeit Aizen said he had his guard down)
  • Bankai Gin (Ichigo needed to Hollowify to block Gin's attack) I want to say someone agreed
  • Isshin (pushed Aizen to his limits) I believe someone agreed
  • Urahara (damaged Chrysalis Aizen) Either someone agreed or was neutral
  • Yoruichi with the armor and shunko (damaged Chrysalis Aizen) Same as Urahara
  • Kenpachi (defeated Yammy while arguing with Byakuya, Aizen was cautious of Kenpachi's power as per a databook iirc) If Yammy passes he passes
  • Byakuya (defeated Yammy while arguing with Kenpachi) If Yammy passes he passes
  • Shikai Yamamoto (tussled with Aizen, Aizen wasn't sure if he could beat Yama with conventional means) Shikai Yama definitively scales to Aizen lol
  • Res Wonderweiss, maybe (scratched and bruised Yama with a barrage of punches) Someone disagreed I think
  • 50% Full Hollow Ichigo (part of the calc) Uh nuff said
  • Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra (part of the calc) Um no comment
  • Lost Agent Byakuya (as strong as before at least)
  • Tsukishima (fought Byakuya)
  • Lost Agent Kenpachu (at least as strong as before)
  • Lost Agent Ichigo (fought Tsukishima)
  • Ginjo (fought Ichigo)
Bolded = overwhelming support, unbolded = needs more discussion or has had no discussion

In case it's not obvious these are people potentially scaling to the SE Ulq FH Ichigo cero clash calc.
 
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Byakuya Scale with his general stats, as of right now, his base bankai didn't gave him more AP. only more Blade but those blade isn't become sharper.
 
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Oh yeah Nnoitra will scale with his durability if you go by this. Manga/Databook, he has the best Hierro.
 
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Pretty sure we didn't go by that rule? like Zommari is the fastest but he pretty shit in reiatsu (Byakuya noted this)
 
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That was their main defensive capabilities, you can said the same for Sonido, they can move without Sonido but their fastest movement will utilized Sonido.
Zommari is the fastest and Nnoitra is the heardest to break if you do by Databook and Manga.
 
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Doesn't change the fact that Hierro isn't the only thing that determines dura, so strongest Hierro in a vacuum doesn't feel sufficient enough to say his dura > every Espada.
 
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...Did someone say that Ulquiorra saying there are people ranked above him does not equal strength? When there's like...A bunch of times when rank=power? Nnoitora has a big 5 on his tongue and says "I'm stronger than the garbage you just beat". Toshiro saying "As powerful as you are you're only 3?" The blatant Espadas ranked tadda from yadda is power based. How about this. Ulquiorra says three people are above him? Segunda Etapa is supposed to be special? Well? Why say he's strongest Espada when pretty easily said is that he can be stronger than the person who had the worst luck in all Bleach to fight Plot Armor Toshiro aka Halibel... Like...I can accept Ulquiorra being above Halibel when she has the nasty antifeat of fighting Toshiro, who's only feats are fighting Base Yammy and Luppi.
 
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...Did someone say that Ulquiorra saying there are people ranked above him does not equal strength? When there's like...A bunch of times when rank=power? Nnoitora has a big 5 on his tongue and says "I'm stronger than the garbage you just beat". Toshiro saying "As powerful as you are you're only 3?" The blatant Espadas ranked tadda from yadda is power based. How about this. Ulquiorra says three people are above him? Segunda Etapa is supposed to be special? Well? Why say he's strongest Espada when pretty easily said is that he can be stronger than the person who had the worst luck in all Bleach to fight Plot Armor Toshiro aka Halibel... Like...I can accept Ulquiorra being above Halibel when she has the nasty antifeat of fighting Toshiro, who's only feats are fighting Base Yammy and Luppi.
As I said this above, Ulquiorra said that to make ichigo feels despair, context in here is:
Ichigo be like, oh you are the strongest espada, if i beat you then I'm stronger than all espada, Ulquiorra then show his numbers to shatter his spirits
He also do this with his SE, Ulquiorra in his Res1 is already Far stronger than Ichigo, he can easily beat him and wont even need to use SE
But when Ichigo still dont want to gave up, he show his SE just to make ichigo lose hope
Its mind game, thats all there it to it

Btw what do you think about Zommari Sunido/Nnoitra hierro?
 
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That does not make Ulquiorra a liar. He's a non believer or a nihilist, in neither one of his interactions did he ever show the ability to lie, if anything he will be always be brutally honest to really sink in the idea that nothing will ever work. He's trying to make Ichigo feel despair yes but that does not mean he will use lies for it when the truth is already enough especially when he sees Ichigo climbing up to his level and he's getting increasingly frustrated with Ichigo to the point of using SE. He did that to drive a point cause Ichigo was already making Ulquiorra break his calm facade it's "Why doesn't he get it is useless to do That?" Ulquiorra sees no values in which he can't see, lies are merely things that do not exist so why would he use them?
 
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As I said this above, Ulquiorra said that to make ichigo feels despair, context in here is:
Ichigo be like, oh you are the strongest espada, if i beat you then I'm stronger than all espada, Ulquiorra then show his numbers to shatter his spirits
He also do this with his SE, Ulquiorra in his Res1 is already Far stronger than Ichigo, he can easily beat him and wont even need to use SE
But when Ichigo still dont want to gave up, he show his SE just to make ichigo lose hope
Its mind game, thats all there it to it

Btw what do you think about Zommari Sunido/Nnoitra hierro?
I merely interpret as they have the most developed technique. Zommari can basically create clones for instance
 
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Alright then, so they won't scale above higher espada. Zommari won't be the fastest espada and Nnoitra don't have the strongest durability.
 
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Alright then, so they won't scale above higher espada. Zommari won't be the fastest espada and Nnoitra don't have the strongest durability.
Well Not necessarily...What happens is that yes Zommari compared to all the Espada has the best Sonido, Nnoitora has the best Hierro. It's something that their proud of. Just like how Ulquiorra has the best regeneration...Which means the Espada have just terrible regen...
 
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Not really, All espada have regen but they can choose to sacrifice their regen for power. Ulquiorra keep his Regen, other is probably dont care with regen.
Anyway I stop here.
 
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This thread looking good. Y'all keep up the good work with these revisions. It's funny because you guys and these revisions are living rent free in so many peoples head.
 
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Resurrection Yammy > Ulquiorra Primera Etapa

1. Ulquiorra tells Ichigo that there are three Espadas stronger than himself. Not four.
2. Ulquiorra says that his most amazing ability isn't his offensive power but his regeneration ability.
3. We have the statements about Yammy been stronger than Ulquiorra from the manga where the author drew first form Ulquiorra, databook doesn't mentioned Segunda Etapa and I don't know about the novel statement.
4. Ichigo's new mask power boost was equaled if not stronger than Vasto Lorde form. At less than half power he was able to knock Yammy around with ease while holding back. During his fight with Aizen it was confirmed Ichigo was afraid of the weight in his reiatsu. The feel of the reiatsu was heavy like the Vasto Lorde form. He was able to use this new mask to fight White with the Vasto Lorde form fused with Quincy Zangetsu into a more powerful version. for months And this Vasto Lorde version of White was at 100% power compare to when he fought Ulquiorra because of his missing clothes.
5. Ichigo was able to harm and cut Base Aizen who one shot Hallibel.

The whole reveal of Yammy been Espada 0 was to make a statement about Ichigo's new found power. Aizen knew about Segunda Etapa since he left Ulquiorra there and told Ichigo that he knew of the new power he found against Ulquiorra. A statement to show Ichigo was ready to fight Aizen.
 

Damage3245

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> 1. Ulquiorra tells Ichigo that there are three Espadas stronger than himself. Not four.

What does this have to do with anything?

> 2. Ulquiorra says that his most amazing ability isn't his offensive power but his regeneration ability,

What does this have to do with anything?

> 3. We have the statements about Yammy been stronger than Ulquiorra from the manga where the author drew first form Ulquiorra, databook doesn't mentioned Segunda Etapa and I don't know about the novel statement.

Without an explanation I'm not sure what you're trying to say with mentioning first form Ulquiorra. Are you saying that Yammy's statement doesn't mean he's stronger than 2nd Resureccion Ulquiorra?

> 5. Ichigo was able to harm and cut Base Aizen who one shot Hallibel.

What does this have to do with Ulquiorra?

> Aizen knew about Segunda Etapa since he left Ulquiorra there and told Ichigo that he knew of the new power he found against Ulquiorra.

Leaving Ulquiorra behind does not mean he knew about Segunda Etapa.
 
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1. Ulquiorra tells Ichigo that there are three Espadas stronger than himself. Not four.
Ulquiorra is basically leaving Yammy out of the power scaling.
> 2. Ulquiorra says that his most amazing ability isn't his offensive power but his regeneration ability,
Ulquiorra isn't the strongest Espada.
> 3. We have the statements about Yammy been stronger than Ulquiorra from the manga where the author drew first form Ulquiorra, databook doesn't mentioned Segunda Etapa and I don't know about the novel statement.
If Kubo had intention of Yammy been stronger than Segunda Etapa he would had drawn that form instead of the first release alongside the Yammy statement of been stronger than Ulquiorra.
> Aizen knew about Segunda Etapa since he left Ulquiorra there and told Ichigo that he knew of the new power he found against Ulquiorra.
Aizen mentions that he knew Ichigo got a power up from that fight. He expected it.
 
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  • Res Yammy and Angry Res Yammy (multiple databook, novel, and manga statements saying he's stronger than SE Ulq, survived a Getsuga from Post res Hollow Mask Ichigo at half power)
  • Aizen (stronger than all the Espada)
  • Post resurrection Hollow Mask Ichigo (damaged Yammy at half power, damaged Aizen at full power)
  • Gin (Ichigo needed to Hollowify to block Gin's attack)
  • Isshin (pushed Aizen to his limits)
  • Urahara (damaged Chrysalis Aizen)
  • Yoruichi with the armor and shunko (damaged Chrysalis Aizen)
  • Kenpachi (defeated Yammy while arguing with Byakuya, Aizen was cautious of Kenpachi's power as per a databook iirc)
  • Byakuya (defeated Yammy while arguing with Kenpachi)
  • Shikai Yamamoto (tussled with Aizen, Aizen wasn't sure if he could beat Yama with conventional means)
  • Res Wonderweiss, maybe (scratched and bruised Yama with a barrage of punches)
  • 50% Full Hollow Ichigo (part of the calc)
  • Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra (part of the calc)
  • Lost Agent Byakuya (as strong as before at least)
  • Tsukishima (fought Byakuya)
  • Lost Agent Kenpachu (at least as strong as before)
  • Lost Agent Ichigo (fought Tsukishima)
  • Ginjo (fought Ichigo)
Bolded = majority agree, Unbolded = majority disagree, Italicized = neutral

In case it's not obvious these are people potentially scaling to the SE Ulq FH Ichigo cero clash calc.
It was agreed that 50% FH Ichigo gets 3/4 the calc (1.9E24 J) and SE Ulq gets 1/4 (6.4E23 J), so crunching out the numbers for the actualy tiers for the proposed characters who scale go as follows:
  • 50% Full Hollow Ichigo scales to 3/4 of the calc, High 6-B (1.9E24 J)
  • Full Power Full Hollow Ichigo scales to twice 50% FH Ichigo, 6-A (3.8E24 J)
  • Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra scales to 1/4 of the calc, High 6-B (6.4E23 J)
  • Resurreccion Yammy scales above SE Ulq, at least High 6-B (6.4E23 J)
  • Rage Res Yammy scales to twice Res Yammy, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Kenpachi scales to Rage Res Yammy, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Byakuya scales to Rage Res Yammy, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Post Resurrection Hollow Mask Ichigo scales to twice Res Yammy, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Aizen scales to above the Espada, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Isshin scales to Aizen, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Urahara maybe scales to Aizen, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Shunko Armor Yoruichi maybe scales to Aizen, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Gin maybe scales to Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Shikai Yamamoto scales to Aizen, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Lost Agent Byakuya scales to his Arrancar Arc self, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Tsukishima scales to Byakuya, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Fullbring Ichigo scales to Tsukishima, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Fullbring Shikai Ichigo scales above FB Ichigo, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Fullbring Bankai Ichigo scales to 5x FB Shikai Ichigo, at least 6-A (6.4E24 J)
  • Ginjo scales to Tsukishima, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Shikai Ginjo scales to FB Shikai Ichigo, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Bankai Ginjo scales to FB Bankai Ichigo, at least 6-A (6.4E24 J)
  • Chrysalis Aizen scales above his past self, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Mullet Aizen scales above his past self, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Resurreccion Wonderweiss maybe scales to Shikai Yama, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Probably a shit ton of TYBW characters
If Damage is going to keep disagreeing about Yammy and Aizen scaling, can we get other staff in here to look at it, since literally everyone else agrees that Aizen and Yammy should scale.

I also want to comment on how SE Ulq's reiatsu seeped through into the canopy of Los Noches, we see that when Uryu is rising up to watch Ichigo fight. So, we know SE Ulq's reiatsu was felt within Los Noches, and to argue Yammy couldn't sense it because he couldn't sense the reiatsu of lesser characters like Human Ichigo in the World of the Living in the beginning of the arc is asinine.
 
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Even if you use it as an argument of his feats being trash, how do power leveling feats somehow get plastered into sensing feats?

Especially when there is another character that should have much better sensing, and the power in question is so blatantly massive that Uryu and Orihime were left speechless just going through the hole in the ceiling.

And that was R1.
 
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I will enjoy the day when barely logical opinions like this stop mattering against actual logic.

Like, no, really. The actual fuck kind of come back is this supposed to be?
Damn son you like to wasting your time over nothing huh, Imagined get triggered over 1 line of words of a convo that doesn't even matter anymore.
 
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That's true. If "triggered" is the sort of card you wanna play, I have to agree anything you say is a waste of time.
That sad, when waste of time person like me had done much more to the verse than most of fan such as yourself.
Beside you did not exactly contribute anything in this thread either.
 
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I am not sure when level of contribution stopped illogical statements from being illogical.

Still, this is pretty unrelated to the thread at all, so let's stop unimportant derailment.
 
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Why would Yammy even scale to Aizen?

1/3 power Ichigo was able to push Yammy to the ground and not cut him. Okay, sure. What that has to do with 100% Ichigo cutting Base Aizen?
There’s no power scaling in this scenario at all.
 
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Why would Yammy even scale to Aizen?

1/3 power Ichigo was able to push Yammy to the ground and not cut him. Okay, sure. What that has to do with 100% Ichigo cutting Base Aizen?
There’s no power scaling in this scenario at all.
Yammy doesn't.

1/2 power Hollow Mask Ichigo slammed Res Yammy down.

It has nothing to do with Ichigo cutting Aizen.

I think I have an idea of what you're getting at. They may scale to the same tier, but that's not because they're equal. They are both upscaling from the same calc by an arbitrary amount. So because we don't know that arbitrary amount, it looks like they're equal, but they're not.
 
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Damage3245

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> I also want to comment on how SE Ulq's reiatsu seeped through into the canopy of Los Noches, we see that when Uryu is rising up to watch Ichigo fight. So, we know SE Ulq's reiatsu was felt within Los Noches, and to argue Yammy couldn't sense it because he couldn't sense the reiatsu of lesser characters like Human Ichigo in the World of the Living in the beginning of the arc is asinine.

Uryu only felt that because he and Orihime were traveling up to the top of the canopy.

There is nothing saying that the other people on the ground could feel the battle, especially since they didn't even seem to be aware of it until Ichigo's Cero pierced the roof and Rukia noticed Ichigo's Reiatsu for the first time (also when Ulquiorra was half-dead at this point).
 
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> I also want to comment on how SE Ulq's reiatsu seeped through into the canopy of Los Noches, we see that when Uryu is rising up to watch Ichigo fight. So, we know SE Ulq's reiatsu was felt within Los Noches, and to argue Yammy couldn't sense it because he couldn't sense the reiatsu of lesser characters like Human Ichigo in the World of the Living in the beginning of the arc is asinine.

Uryu only felt that because he and Orihime were traveling up to the top of the canopy.

There is nothing saying that the other people on the ground could feel the battle, especially since they didn't even seem to be aware of it until Ichigo's Cero pierced the roof and Rukia noticed Ichigo's Reiatsu for the first time (also when Ulquiorra was half-dead at this point).
You can't prove that Yammy didn't sense it and I can't prove that anyone other than Uryu felt it either. Big whoop doesn't matter then. Yammy scales above Ulquiorra off of a variety of statements anyhow.
 

Damage3245

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@Arc7Kuroi; a variety of statements? So far I've only seen the one which is Yammy claiming to be stronger than the people Ichigo has fought against (Espada 4, 5 and 6) and the databook repeating that.

If there is a huge variety of statements, then they should all be listed.
 
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It was agreed that 50% FH Ichigo gets 3/4 the calc (1.9E24 J) and SE Ulq gets 1/4 (6.4E23 J), so crunching out the numbers for the actualy tiers for the proposed characters who scale go as follows:

Why do Chrysalis and Mullet Aizen scale below VL Ichigo when both versions are transcendent beings? And IMO base Aizen should be > VL Ichigo.
 
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Scaling relied on Aizen being superior to Espada and not 100% hollow Ichigo. 100% hollow Ichigo never fought anyone
So he kinda doesn't scale to anyone, You can say Aizen stronger than him as a ''Transcendent being'' but i cant find reasons for base Aizen.
 
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100% Vasto Lorde + Quincy Zangetsu = Merged Zangetsu that fought the Ichigo that injured Base Aizen for months. He wasn’t trying to kill him that is a given but he fought a being that was x50 stronger than Vasto Lorde. Ulquiorra lost to a nerfed 1/3 powerful Vasto Lorde.
 
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@Damage3245
The statements Arc is referring to are the strongest Espada ones as well as the one that names Ulq. And yes, you don’t think Aizen knew about SE but the Databook isn’t limited to Aizen’s knowledge and nothing states that Ulq is no longer an Espada while using SE.

On Wonderweiss, I don’t think he should scale to the calc if the reasoning is based on Yama. We know that R1 can beat Bankai Kensei and base can one shot Jushiro while just his scream is stronger than R1 Harribel so it’s not like he needs the calc for a tier. Unless people agree on 1-3 scaling above/to SE, Wonderweiss shouldn’t be scaling to the figure.

On Aizen, base obviously scales above SE but Chrysalis and Mullet being transcendent don’t matter. Butterfly is the one with the statement of transcending all Shinigami and Hollow which means the previous versions did not. No reason to scale them above others beyond a title that doesn’t actually support it.
 

Damage3245

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@AnonymousBlank; so a total of two statements? Not really a variety of supporting statements then.

I can easily believe that Released Yammy is superior to the likes of Released Stark, Released Ulquiorra, the rest of the Espada... but I don't think those statements alone are good enough to support to rate Yammy as believe about Second Resureccion Ulquiorra.

Ulquiorra makes it a point that he alone out of the Espada has achieved a Second Resureccion - that he hasn't even shown this form to Aizen. We don't have enough evidence to support Yammy being aware of it either as Arc7Kuroi conceded.

I think there's a limit to how far we should take our assumptions in this kind of scaling, where we're sorely lacking in feats for these characters and having to rely on statements that are up to interpretation.

As I said earlier in the thread, the most I think Yammy should get is a possibly rating for possibly scaling to that form of Ulquiorra because I definitely don't think it is as clear-cut as you say it is.

We also don't take the databook as objective fact since that same databook points out that Yammy only gets a 10x multiplier between his base form and his released form.
 
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@Damage3245 That isn't how databooks work, they aren't suddenly irrelevant because one thing they said isn't used, the Bleach databooks don't have a history of being laughably inaccurate unlike some others, so the statement of Yammy being > Ulquiorra is perfectly valid, all it comes down to is if that statement alone is enough and in my opinion it is, given that there are really no contradictions.
 
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@Damage3245 That isn't how databooks work, they aren't suddenly irrelevant because one thing they said isn't used, the Bleach databooks don't have a history of being laughably inaccurate unlike some others, so the statement of Yammy being > Ulquiorra is perfectly valid, all it comes down to is if that statement alone is enough and in my opinion it is, given that there are really no contradictions.
Databook is referring to Yammy been stronger than Ulquiorra first form exactly how the manga show the form with the statement in the same panel.
 
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The databook does show a panel of Yammy saying it yes, but it also reaffirms what Yammy states, that he's above Nnoitra, Grimmjow and Ulquiorra, but the difference here is that the databook isn't limited by not knowing of R2.
 

Damage3245

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@Purgy; if it is just repeating what Yammy said that doesn't magically change the statement to also include R2.
 
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It does, otherwise you're arguing the databook is giving false information, the people that wrote it are aware of R2 so they wouldn't say he's above Ulquiorra in general if it wasn't true.

The databook isn't just quoting what Yammy says, the databook is reaffirming it, but again, this time there's no argument that they aren't aware of R2.
 
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The databook is meant provide additional details on things the manga doesn’t touch upon or clarifies,so when it says that Yammy is the strongest it means that Ulq’s R2 is taken into account.Otherwise what value does a databook have it just repeats the manga’s statement?
 

Damage3245

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@Makstar05: I don't think it has much value.

Anyway, I've given my thoughts.

I think it best to rate Yammy as;

At least X, possibly Y

For being stronger than R1 Starrk, and possibly stronger than Ulquiorra.
 
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Why doesn't it have much value? I don't think there's any need for a possibly rating given that the databooks statement is pretty clear.

Maybe if there were contradictions to Yammy being above R2 Ulquiorra then sure, but there aren't.
 
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@Damage3245
Statements that say he is the strongest. What more do we need when there are no contradictions?

Why is an objective source that knows more than the characters not enough to support in verse statements?

Being the only one to have a power doesn’t automatically make you stronger or even support the notion. It has absolutely no bearing on anything unless there are two people who are otherwise stated to be equal. The data book statements aren’t dependent on Yammy or Aizen’s knowledge. No clue why you are even bringing it up.

Ignoring that Yammy does have scaling to stronger people, you are basically saying that the equivalent of the narrator/WoG/omniscient source is not a valid source of information when the people in question are, by your own words, “sorely lacking in feats”. All the scaling is either to people in a vacuum or people stronger so how can the statements not be enough?

It is very clear cut. The arguments against it are that “Aizen doesn’t know” (which doesn’t matter), “Yammy doesn’t know” (also doesn’t matter), “SE Ulq isn’t an Espada” (completely unfounded) etc etc etc. What part of “Yammy is the strongest Espada” isn’t clear cut?

So a source of info whose sole purpose is to provide more knowledge than that of the source material isn’t objective because it maybe got one thing wrong? There is one statement for his Res being x10 while there are multiple for his Res making him the strongest Espada. It’s pretty obvious which one would take precedence.

@AppleLord
The picture being accurate or not to the form he scales above doesn’t matter. If it is accurate, then so is Aizen’s “I planned your life” so Yammy still scales. If it isn’t, then it applies to SE Ulq. Either way, it’s still outnumbered by the statements of Yammy being the strongest Espada which Ulq still falls under the umbrella of by his own word.
 

Damage3245

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@AnonymousBlank: I still think a possibly rating is the best outcome. The statement is not as clear-cut as you're pretending it is. It isn't specifically referring to R2 Ulquiorra, you're just assuming it is, when the possibility is there that R2 Ulquiorra is completely outside of the Espada ranking.

I don't see why we need to make that assumption at all. Does it even say which version of Yammy it is that is the strongest? Maybe it only says that because his Resureccion lets him keep growing stronger and stronger as he feels more rage.
 
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I still think that the scaling for Aizen and Yama is weird, as in this way they are somehow much weaker than characters like Tokinada, who we know for a fact that isn't as strong as either of the 2:

 
I still think that the scaling for Aizen and Yama is weird, as in this way they are somehow much weaker than characters like Tokinada, who we know for a fact that isn't as strong as either of the 2:

that why I said we should ignore them right now, the will be upgraded again I don't see any point in discussing them right now
 
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Regarding the Aizen and Yamamoto scaling, this CRT is solely based off the FH Ichigo vs SE Ulq calc.

If there's a way to scale Yama and Aizen higher in a manner unrelated to this calc then it's probably best for a separate CRT.

Base Aizen might be getting his own calc to be evaluated in a later CRT anyhow that puts him above any of the Espada calcs.

@Damage3245
The databook reiterating what Yammy said just means the narrator supports Yammy's claim. What reason exists to discredit Yammy's statement? "He couldn't sense human or shikai Ichigo in the WotL" is not a valid argument for Yammy not being able to sense SE Ulq's spiritual pressure, considering start of Arrancar Arc shikai Ichigo would have essentially zero spiritual pressure when compared to SE Ulq.

The only reason any Espada can enter a release state is because Aizen used the Hogyoku to turn them into Arrancar. Aizen is the one who granted Ulquiorra the ability to use Resurreccion and Resurreccion: Segunda Etapa; despite that Aizen still gave Ulquiorra rank 4. To argue Aizen didn't know about Ulq's full power is ridiculous.

Yammy doesn't need his statements to scale regardless. Here's why: Aizen scales above all the Espada, Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo damaged Aizen at full power, Res Yammy survived an attack from Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo at half power. So, regardless Angry Res Yammy is relative to Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo and that Ichigo is relative to Aizen, and Aizen's above the Espada.

Yammy and Aizen then being scaled above the same value doesn't mean Yammy = Aizen, since we don't know how arbitrarily above that calc Aizen and Yammy are.
Aizen >= Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo ~ Angry Res Yammy > Res Yammy > the rest of the Espada

Yammy scales based on statements and then scaling from other characters who scale above the feat, I seriously don't understand why you're pushing this "possibly" narrative for Yammy. We have feats and statements what else do you want, the author to write you a letter saying what every character scales to?
 
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@Arc7Kuroi
I get what you are trying to argue with the Hogyoku point but Ulq is a natural Arrancar. Pretty sure the story that shows this is in the same databook that gives the Yammy statements. Aizen would have full knowledge on the powers of people like Barragan, Harribel, Nel etc but guys like Starrk and Ulq are exempt from this.

Also big rip to the calc.
 
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@Arc7Kuroi
I get what you are trying to argue with the Hogyoku point but Ulq is a natural Arrancar. Pretty sure the story that shows this is in the same databook that gives the Yammy statements. Aizen would have full knowledge on the powers of people like Barragan, Harribel, Nel etc but guys like Starrk and Ulq are exempt from this.

Also big rip to the calc.
I'm pretty sure the Aizen's the one who gave them Zanpakuto's to seal away their power for release (with the Hogyoku of course). Which would still mean Aizen is the reason Starrk and Ulq can enter and de-enter release states.
 
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They don’t need to be given Zanpakuto like Shinigami get Asauchi afaik. Arrancars just split their soul and their power takes the form of swords with the exception of Coyote “big stronk” Starrk. Anyway, the thread is done so no point continuing here. If you really want to you can hit me up on my wall or on discord.
 
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Looking through the shockwave thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/shockwave-formula-time-to-put-some-limits.108302/

It appears the (density/time^2)(radius/1.05)^5 formula is allowed to be used specifically for the radii of explosions that deal significant damage.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/4/42/Shuum.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/629?cb=20200917221213


We see the explosion kick a large volume of sand proportional to ~1/3 the height of Los Noches at some points. DontTalkDT said that shockwaves that shatter glass and whatnot would be included within the "lethal range" and I'm not 100% sure but I want to say kicking up that much sand falls well within the realms of a "glass shattering" shockwave.

Assuming the sand is 1 meter thick and raised only 1 meter above the ground to lowball would still require 4E14 joules (town level amounts of energy) to do so using potential energy. I'm sure using kinetic energy would yield a much higher result for moving that sand. I don't know what exactly is the threshold for the lethal range of a shockwave to be applied to the aforementioned formula, but I feel like kicking up this much sand would enable the calc to fall within the lethal range for the shockwave.

Given the parameters for the formula being: it is used for an explosion where the radius used is for the distance in which the shockwave deals significant damage. I'd argue this calc follows those rules. The clash results in an explosion and the shockwave radius used is that which kicks up an enormous amount of sand.

@Damage3245 I'd like you weigh in on if I correctly interpreted the parameters that need to be met in order to apply the above formula.
 

Damage3245

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> So, we should not use this formula and stick with ground explosion and air bust? - M3X

> I would say so. - DT

> DT is saying that instead of using the shockwave calc for explosions we should use our standard explosion formulas. - Dargoo

From what I understand, we're supposed to be using our standard formulas instead of the new one.

So the calc would need to be updated.
 
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> So, we should not use this formula and stick with ground explosion and air bust? - M3X

> I would say so. - DT

> DT is saying that instead of using the shockwave calc for explosions we should use our standard explosion formulas. - Dargoo

From what I understand, we're supposed to be using our standard formulas instead of the new one.

So the calc would need to be updated.
> It needs to be a shockwave that does significant damage - DT

He also says this in reference to using the formula, is it worth getting another opinion then?
 
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Oh shit, a Bleach CRT.

How could I miss this?
Currently the calc is nulled due to this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/shockwave-formula-time-to-put-some-limits.108302/

However, I'm still a bit confused by the conclusions reached by said thread, because DT says if the formula is to be used it should be used for an explosion and the shockwave radius should be of that which causes significant damage. At the same time they sort of imply that maybe the formula shouldn't be used at all. It didn't appear that a concrete conclusion was reached, like if we can use the formula as long as it meets certain criteria or if it can't be used at all.

I feel it's important to eliminate that ambiguity before we disregard the calc this thread is based on and the following 3 pages of discussion.
 
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My theory is someone specifically questioned the validity of this calc because of this thread
Maybe, maybe not, I'd still like clarification if the method is inherently incorrect or if it can be used given a variety of criterion are met.

can someone give me the summarized version of all that is being talked about?
Damage doesn't think Res Yammy or Aizen should scale above SE Ulq. Everyone else disagrees regarding Aizen, and most disagree regrading Res Yammy; meaning most agree Res Yammy and Aizen scale above SE Ulq. (We also currently accept that Aizen > Res Yammy > SE Ulq)

For Res Yammy we have multiple in manga statements, databook statements, and alleged novel statements. As well as Res Yammy scaling to post resurrection Ichigo.

For Aizen we have the Gin statement, Aizen calling the Espada weak, Aizen tanking the high level hado from Yama with minimal burns, and Aizen saying all of Ichigo's battles played out in his hand implying he knew of SE Ulq.

Against Res Yammy we have that Yammy might not be able to sense SE Ulq's power.

Against Aizen we have Aizen might not have known about SE Ulq's power.

That is the bare bones of it, dialogue halted because the calc method might be invalid. My last couple posts express my confusion with disregarding this calc.
 
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Damage3245

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@Arc7Kuroi; to clarify a point:

> We also currently accept that Aizen > Res Yammy > SE Ulq

We don't currently accept Res Yammy > SE Ulq.
 
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