Bleach Revision Cont'd

[Rocker1189]

If you have not read Bleach then why are you posting in this thread? Lol... Absolutely pathetic.

what is pathetic is you berating someone for helping with revisions.

 

[Neatheneath]

• It could had been the same distance, they are just faster. Combat speed is not the same as travel speed. There's also a rule about that a long with reaction speed.

Same distance but faster is possible, but we're talking thousands to tens of thousands times faster. Given that in your timeframe it takes Ichigo about 9 hours to make it (32400 seconds) then we're looking at:

• 540x faster if the eye monsters took a minute (would break the narrative's pacing, though)
• 1080x faster in 30 seconds
• 3240x faster in 10 seconds (probably closest to the depiction)
• 32400x faster in 1 second

Byakuya has never had any plotwise progression to suggest that he's even so much as closed the gap between his and Ichigo's speed, let alone outdo him so dramatically. And this is full powered Ichigo with all of his powerups mastered as well. We're talking at the lowest end over 500x Ichigo's "Soul Society is in danger and this is urgent" best speed. He hasn't had half the number of powerups that Ichigo's had. What's worse, we have a whole bunch of other non-speedsters reacting to the same including Ikkaku, Yumichika, and Hisagi.

Now as for combat vs travel speed? Well there's a bunch of problems.

• Clearly, this won't work if this is combat speed because of the above
• However, even as travel speed, it's just raw movement speed over a long distance, not including any fighting reaction times. They would be able to at least apply the same raw movement speed in close quarters while vastly outnumbering their opponents. No special technique seemed to apply while they were falling from Soul King palace - they were just swarming down. Just a single one of them using a fraction of full powered Ichigo's top speed for attacking would have spelled complete disaster for the lower tiers, nevermind being hundreds to tens of thousands of times faster.
• And it gets even worse. The eye monsters didn't even appear to be moving specially. They literally appeared to be freefalling on panel. I don't even want to discuss the implications of them freefalling faster than Ichigo's top speed.

http://www.***********.net/bleach/621/11

http://i5.***********.net/bleach/621/bleach-5567931.jpg

http://i7.***********.net/bleach/621/bleach-5567935.jpg

Point being it's just such a massive outlier for everyone all the way down to 5th seats now that any alternative explanation would be great.

• Was there any mention of the gates been sealed? I thought Yhwach said they remained opened? Mimihagi, eye oozes and Lille traveled the same speed. Lille can't be calc as anything, because he felt from there. Not combat speed.

That's right. The gates were never mentioned to be sealed. Yhwach said that it would take over an hour for the gates to be sealed and pretty much the rest of the series takes place within that hour. Or otherwise, it takes him significantly less than that time to absorb the Soul King and thus by lore, be able to generate Oken.
Thus I am suggesting any calc / speed you get while the barriers are dow may not necessarily be the same as the calc you get while Ichigo is forcing the barriers open.

As for Lillle's movement:

http://www.***********.net/bleach/647/5

http://www.***********.net/bleach/649/16

http://www.***********.net/bleach/654/11

http://www.***********.net/bleach/654/12

He routinely transforms himself into energy and moves around / clones himself in combat, similar to the energy he shot when he fell from Soul King palace. All of his projectiles in his second form are also the same kind of stuff, some of which Kyoraku and Nanao dodged.

Plus why would his falling speed be faster than his combat speed? These are characters that massively accelerate faster than gravity.

Like individually you could come up with a number of theories (all straining Occam's razor) for each fall / travel and everyone that gets scaled from the speed of each fall. But the need for all those theories go away if you give the distance formula some leeway due to a lore-supported dimension travel.

 

[Neatheneath]

• When the barriers are close there isn't any distance. I can agree to that, but Ichigo remained those open. So a distance existed, and we do have a time frame for it. I posted it above.

Errr, maybe I worded myself bad, so I'll try to take it from the top.

1. when the barriers are closed, Soul King palace is in another dimension. You literally can't travel there.
2. when the barriers are ope, Soul King palace feels like its hanging somewhere in the sky, close enough to Seireitei that travel is kinda convenient. They are only open for people with an Oken, which is basically a blessing from the Soul King. AFAIK only Royal guards get an Oken, or otherwise you do what Aizen did.
3. If you are going to force the barriers ope, then you can travel from the Soul King palace to Seireitei. You need the power of an Oken to do so, for example, the cloak given to Ichigo, and the travel is going to feel like a massive distance.
4. If you force the barriers open, they can't close till like 1hour++. Have to look for the Yhwach statement.

So yes we have a timeframe / distance for (3). We don't necessarily have a distance for (2) and (4), however, they have very short timeframes, even for things that appear to just be freefalling.

• Gin did say that Aizen's strenght was beyond the Espada and the Captains. Source: Chapter 390

• Aizen was above Ichigo who Unohana said to had x2 the reiatsu of a Captain. And he took out Harribel with ease. Source: Chapter 376

This is how reiatsu works.

Not getting why you're explaining reiatsu or Aizen to me for that particular reply.

 

[Ezeriot]

The how-long-it-takes-to-travel-to-Seireitei statements never implied for the barriers to slow him, or anyone for that matter, down in any way. It was simply about the distance being 7 days/half a day at top speed away.

 

[Neatheneath]

@Amlad22
Why shouldn't 15 million be taken seriously? It is a precise figure and is also, without coincidence, the temperature of the sun's core (remember how Yama-jii called himself in Bankai "The Embodiment of the Sun"). Kubo clearly did his research on this one.

Just to point out as well: the temperature of something and the amount of radiation / heat transfer are not necessarily the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqDbMEdLiCs

TLDW: different materials conduct heat at different rates. Something that conducts heat transfer efficiently will feel "cold" at the same temperature as something that doesn't.

It may be the case that ZnT is 15M C, but does not radiate / conduct its heat to the surroundings. Why? Um. Yamamoto's reiatsu preventing the heat from leaking out, however imperfectly? So basically the only things that get heated up to that degree are the stuff touching his sword.

I would say take 15M C literally, but let's not treat him like a walking fusion reaction as he doesn't actually radiate that much heat. How much heat he actually radiates is something for the calc people to decide.

 

[PaChi2]

@Amlad you are not getting High 6-A Yamamoto with those unreliable statements when we have Yama's accurate description of his bankai. Dont push it. We have other things to revise.

 

[Ezeriot]

Yama also stated himself that his bankai will turn soul society to ash.

 

[Neatheneath]

The how-long-it-takes-to-travel-to-Seireitei statements never implied for the barriers to slow him, or anyone for that matter, down in any way. It was simply about the distance being 7 days/half a day at top speed away.

I'm just trying to come up with a valid explanation - supported by series lore - that doesn't mess up all other scalings and fits in with the series lore. If we pick a single distance for all states, I'm telling you way too many comparisons are getting broken and we need to weasel out of too many things:

• the Eye monsters are going to be relativistic-ish and Yumichika et al are stomping full power Ichigo thousands of times in speed
• Mimihagi et al are already being treated relativistic-ish, which scales to Yhwach, which scales to Orihime and Renji and then we have a nightmare of having them scale to everyone.
• Ditto with Lille Barro and undead Kira thus Matsumoto et al

And the scale of the difference is just too much for too many characters to weasel out of, on the order of tens of thousands of times faster than full power Ichigo who scales to Dangai btw then suddenly Gin's bankai is so ridiculously slowsauce that it doesn't even matter as a point of reference. Even if we tried to differentiate combat and movement speed the problem remains because of just how huge the outlier is and that at least some of the movement speed shown is transferable to raw movement OR reaction speed in combat.

All of the trouble goes out the window if we remember the canon fact that Soul King palace is a different dimension and how Bleach has often treated spacetime as weird for different dimensions (Garganta, Muken). The above happens because we assume distance is constant, speed is changing, when for many of the characters it's actually more consistent to assume that their speed is constant, distance is changing. i.e., Yumichika et al had some boosts ok, but nothing in the series supports his boosts being stronger than Ichigo's, who's had more boosts from more power sources.

 

[Amlad22]

@PaChi2 why are you saying that the 15 million degree statements is so "accurate"?

This is similar to when Roshi blew up the moon. He had one feat that put him at Moon level, but since many other feats were only around city level, the one feat was disregarded as an outlier. Much like the fight with Yama, there is one statement that puts Yama around small country level, but there are 3 statements that put him much higher. The 3 multiple statements should be trusted more than the one singular statements that greatly differs from the other 3.

 

[Damage3245]

If the heat Yama was emitting was planet level then Yhwach wouldn't survive even with Blut Vene. It was already taking everything he had to not turn to ashes. His durability certainly wasn't planet-level at that time.

 

[PaChi2]

@Amlad

Yama is explaining his own bankai, if anyone knows his bankai best is him. If he says its 15M degrees, its 15M degrees.

 

[The4Godlike]

@PaChi2 why are you saying that the 15 million degree statements is so "accurate"?

LMAO.

 

[Damage3245]

If we're going to ignore Yama's words and look at what's just on the panels, then we need to take into account the fact he isn't setting the surrounding wood on fire or melting the nearby stone... Not so hot then.

 

[AppleLord]

Point being it's just such a massive outlier for everyone all the way down to 5th seats now that any alternative explanation would be great.

What you said can be easily resume as this "a massive outlier". The calcs are only added to the God Tiers Yhwach, Mimihagi, Ichigo, Aizen and possibly anyone important who fought at the Royal Realm.

Everyone else below High tiers are outlier's. It's not a big jump either since Ichigo in Shikai casually speed blitz Candice lightning which she summons from the clouds of Soul Society.

 

[AppleLord]

Not getting why you're explaining reiatsu or Aizen to me for that particular reply.
Someone said something about him been weaker than the Espadas, and I thought it was you. So sorry if it wasn't you. Maybe I mix up threads. XD

 

[AppleLord]

If we're going to ignore Yama's words and look at what's just on the panels, then we need to take into account the fact he isn't setting the surrounding wood on fire or melting the nearby stone... Not so hot then.

His legs aren't cover by fire, the heat did vaporized all the water in Seireitei. His sword also vaporized the ground when Yhwach dodge him. Something called Reiatsu controls exist, he even said that he would lose control if the fight didn't end quickly.

 

[DodoNova2]

>the reaction of a person who has to read the thread


I am currently in this state

 

[PaChi2]

@Dodonova

I like the fact that you think that someone would actually read this thread. ovo

 

[DodoNova2]

no one would have the courage (lazy) OvO

 

[Aizenishere]

@Dodo

Accurate

 

[Damage3245]

His legs aren't cover by fire, the heat did vaporized all the water in Seireitei. His sword also vaporized the ground when Yhwach dodge him. Something called Reiatsu controls exist, he even said that he would lose control if the fight didn't end quickly.

My point is that ignoring Yama's words means looking into the inconsistency of how his heat is portrayed. Somehow he releases enough heat to evaporate all of the water in Seireitei but not to cause any other negative effects in his surroundings? He has enough heat to turn an unguarded Yhwach to ashes but not to melt the stone around him?

Reiatsu control doesn't explain the inconsistencies away; the best solution is to ignore it altogether and go with the 15 Million degrees figure.

 

[Neatheneath]

What you said can be easily resume as this "a massive outlier". The calcs are only added to the God Tiers Yhwach, Mimihagi, Ichigo, Aizen and possibly anyone important who fought at the Royal Realm.

Everyone else below High tiers are outlier's. It's not a big jump either since Ichigo in Shikai casually speed blitz Candice lightning which she summons from the clouds of Soul Society.

Its also a massive outlier for the god tiers themseves. Without the distance calc, do they have anything else that scales to the same? Were talking the difference between lightning speed (mach 300ish, consistent witb Ichigo/Gin dynamics) to relativistic, or hundreds of times that (lets just say Ichigo would be laughing at Gin).

Plus are we really comfortable accepting a calc for some but not all, with there being more characters the calc is rejected for than accepted? I mean an outlier for one character is one thing, an outlier for half the cast that contradicts the narrative is another.

 

[AppleLord]

My point is that ignoring Yama's words means looking into the inconsistency of how his heat is portrayed. Somehow he releases enough heat to evaporate all of the water in Seireitei but not to cause any other negative effects in his surroundings? He has enough heat to turn an unguarded Yhwach to ashes but not to melt the stone around him?

Reiatsu control doesn't explain the inconsistencies away; the best solution is to ignore it altogether and go with the 15 Million degrees figure.

But we are not ignoring Yamma's words.

con┬Àtrol kən╦êtrōl/Submit noun 1. the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events. "the whole operation is under the control of a production manager"

 

[Neatheneath]

Someone said something about him been weaker than the Espadas, and I thought it was you. So sorry if it wasn't you. Maybe I mix up threads. XD

Yeah I get how all the threads and arguments can get overwhelming. Its ok

 

[AppleLord]

Its also a massive outlier for the god tiers themseves. Without the distance calc, do they have anything else that scales to the same? Were talking the difference between lightning speed (mach 300ish, consistent witb Ichigo/Gin dynamics) to relativistic, or hundreds of times that (lets just say Ichigo would be laughing at Gin).

Plus are we really comfortable accepting a calc for some but not all, with there being more characters the calc is rejected for than accepted? I mean an outlier for one character is one thing, an outlier for half the cast that contradicts the narrative is another.

• Gods Tiers can't have Outliers, unless we see them go full power and later they make an outlier feat when they previosuly couldn't.

• There are no calcs accepted from that timeframe, yet.

• They are not Mach 300. They have their own calcs from the war.

• That's how it works for a fictional verses. Illogical ones are denied. The bijuu was Kaguya, and she was sealed by Hagoromo who is Moon level for creating the moon, and everyone on the war was fightining it and holding it back. Is everyone in Naruto Moon level? Ino and Sakura Moon level. lol

 

[PaChi2]

God tiers can have outliers if those feats are heavily contradicting the series established powerlevel.

Not commenting on the rest or disagreeing.

 

[Neatheneath]

@Apple, the kaguya feats dont scale to the rest of the narutoverse because it was characters with specific techniques that fought them.

With Yhwach vs anyone its just speed and force being compared. Half of his profile stats are people being scaled to his speed and force. Thats how we ended up with Planet level Ichigo when nobody looking at the rest of the series would ever say that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am kinda lost.

 

[PaChi2]

I am kinda lost.

Good thing Im not the only one.

 

[Neatheneath]

@Apple regarding mach 300 i just used it as reference to lightning speed (Candace) and its highly consistent with Ichigos known previous limit (something less than mach 500). Youre taking a jump from there to relativistic which is thousands of times above that.

If were going all the way to the fifth seats stomping Ichigos speed...

Again one consistent assumption and dozens of consistency problems go away. versus handwaving dozens of consistency problems because we get to keep one calc that even within the series isnt really solidly defined.

 

[Aizenishere]

I am kinda lost.

Same

 

[AppleLord]

@Apple, the kaguya feats dont scale to the rest of the narutoverse because it was characters with specific techniques that fought them.
With Yhwach vs anyone its just speed and force being compared. Half of his profile stats are people being scaled to his speed and force. Thats how we ended up with Planet level Ichigo when nobody looking at the rest of the series would ever say that.

I was comparing speed and force to the God tree which fought a Moon level character. Hagoromo. Yhwach, Aizen and Ichigo are not to be discussed until the end of the revision as a whole. The note is above in the OP. Ichigo didn't end up on planet level because of that.

 

[AppleLord]

@Apple regarding mach 300 i just used it as reference to lightning speed (Candace) and its highly consistent with Ichigos known previous limit (something less than mach 500). Youre taking a jump from there to relativistic which is thousands of times above that.
If were going all the way to the fifth seats stomping Ichigos speed...

Again one consistent assumption and dozens of consistency problems go away. versus handwaving dozens of consistency problems because we get to keep one calc that even within the series isnt really solidly defined.

So you're saying that after 3 power up transformations Ichigo is still as slow as he was before when is stablish in SS arc that his bankai is base on speed and strenght. Okay. Candice lightning was calculated at a higher mach number. Ichibei's speed also has a higher number.

 

[Aizenishere]

So.. what is Being discussed right now as far as revisions are concerned?

 

[Neatheneath]

TLDR: I've always viewed the "elevates the Wandenreich" calc as sketchy in many respects. The distance calc is one of them which is unfortunately the basis for way too many feats afterward.

Actually if you account for a massive distance, it's a significant boost in most of the Bleach tiers. So I gave an alternative explanation about the distance being wonky due to dimensional blablabla.

I could collate that discussion into a blogpost / separate thread if you want. It should affect a lot of characters as a lot of feats are taken in reference to the Wandenreich distance calc:

• Yhwach's AP
• Mimihagi's speed

And both of those things are massive jumps. Of accepted calcs from confirmed feats we went from teratons to exatons, a factor of a million. For speed, characters that were narratively considering the mach hundreds too fast to see are reacting to mach ten thousands.

I think it should matter that it's outliers for a lot of people. If your calc produces more outliers than it does hits, maybe we should question the calc. Heck I didn't even question the calc itself, I just limited that it only applied to Ichigo going down.

Not sure how narutoverse got dragged into it. Maybe Apple was doing a Naruto thread elsewhere and it got mixed up.

 

[Aizenishere]

I recall reading a few of the dimensional balboa last posts.

Could you sum up to me how big of an upgrade/downgrade it'd be for the God tiers in terms of AP/ Speed

 

[Neatheneath]

I was comparing speed and force to the God tree which fought a Moon level character. Hagoromo. Yhwach, Aizen and Ichigo are not to be discussed until the end of the revision as a whole. The note is above in the OP. Ichigo didn't end up on planet level because of that.

None of the characters you said scaled from Kaguya's speed or force. The moon levels were only achieved by specific techniques (Chibaku tensei) accessed by a very limited cast.

By contrast Yhwach's speed and force scales to whoever reacts to / hurts / blocks him. It's on Ichigo's profile that he's planet level because he can harm Yhwach, ergo, whatever feats we assign to Yhwach are getting assigned to others. We're dismissing the rest as outliers but it's weird that there are more outliers than there are actual accepted comparisons.

That's really what I'm on about. The distance calc is a calc that boosts the rest of the series quite a bit and there are more exceptions than there are accepted. I'm just giving an out to it because eventually we are going to go:

• Yumichika is mach ___ so he should be slower than Luffy
• Not according to fighting the Eye monsters he isnt!
• 8th massive debate this week and reposting of Mimihagi speed

Like if you have a calc that doesn't depend on the distance calc that shows a similar range of feats then it's going to be accepted anyways. But we don't really have an in-story basis for rejecting the feat as an outlier each and every time. Byakuya gets scaled. Ikkaku gets scaled. Kira gets scaled. (all 3 fought massively fast eye monsters) Orihime gets scaled (fought and reacted to Yhwach). Right now they're all just outliers as they should be. But there's just waay too many each with individual excuses.

 

[Neatheneath]

I recall reading a few of the dimensional balboa last posts.
Could you sum up to me how big of an upgrade/downgrade it'd be for the God tiers in terms of AP/ Speed

It's not really a direct change, its pretty much "look for basis of God-tier feats elsewhere".

• Yhwach's final AP would be dependent on the verdict of his final attempt to destroy / merge SS, rather than elevating the Wandenreich. It could still end up being planetary based on that discussion.
• Yhwach's speed would go back to his speed while fighting Ichibei
• Aizen's speed is scaled from Yhwach rather than Mimihagi stream / Eye monsters
• Ichigo's last speed last scaled from Ichibei / Yhwach

But it allows everyone a blanket:

• No Yumichika isnt that fast
• No Byakuya isnt that fast
• No Ikkaku isnt that fast
• No Orihime isnt that fast
• No Kira isnt that fast
• No Lille Barro isnt that fast

etc.

 

[AppleLord]

None of the characters you said scaled from Kaguya's speed or force. The moon levels were only achieved by specific techniques (Chibaku tensei) accessed by a very limited cast.

Right now they're all just outliers as they should be. But there's just waay too many each with individual excuses.

Same as in Naruto. Everyone from the war was able to react and fight this guy who had a speed and power above all of them. Everyone has outliers just like the mimihagi eyes scene.

You can make a blog about it, and then you can also make your own calculations and it will be decided if we use them or not.

 

[Neatheneath]

None of the characters you said scaled from Kaguya's speed or force. The moon levels were only achieved by specific techniques (Chibaku tensei) accessed by a very limited cast.

Right now they're all just outliers as they should be. But there's just waay too many each with individual excuses.

Same as in Naruto. Everyone from the war was able to react and fight this guy who had a speed and power above all of them. Everyone has outliers just like the mimihagi eyes scene.
You can make a blog about it, and then you can also make your own calculations and it will be decided if we use them or not.

Why does Naruto keep getting dragged into this? This is a Bleach revision thread, not a Naruto discussion. Secondly, the Jubi wasnt even massively hypersonic for most of its attacks and movement - most of whom the ninjas were not able to do anything against. It was basically just a wild beast Obito used as a talking point while he argued with Naruto.

This is in stark contrast to Orihime straight up blocking awakened Yhwach from in front of Ichigo:

http://www.***********.net/bleach/673/14

Twice:

http://www.***********.net/bleach/675/14

Thrice (this time with Almighty in full effect):

http://www.***********.net/bleach/678/14

All of that in the heat of battle with the characters at their throats. You have to at least admit that's a world of difference from Obito giving Naruto lectures and telegraphing everything he's going to do while everyone just goes code brown shorts.