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Even if all of those assumptions are true even with a King's Key, we have an official time-frame.
Tenjiro told Ichigo it takes a week walking down stairs using Shunpo:
http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-555-page-5.html
But he decided to through himself at full speed:
http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-555-page-13.html
And we have a time frame for Ichigo getting there:
From the Clock Tower in Seireitei, and Ichibei's statement.
The Quincy take over Seireitei began at 5 pm the first day.
http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-546-page-11.html
Ichigo went down after 3 hours at 8 pm
http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-555-page-7.html
Ichigo arrived at 5:15 am the next day.
http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-581-page-21.html
That's 9 hours and 15 minutes or 33,300 seconds.
I guess none of this really addresses the fact that Soul king palace is in a separate dimension, not a mere distance, protected by the Oken.
Ichigo travelled down not with direct use of an Oken, but with a cloak made of Oken. The mechanics of his travel are completely diffferent from every other travel to and from the Soul King palace. For instance, in Ichigos case the barriers were forced open and could not close, whereas in none of the royal guard travels does this happen. Thus we should be open to the possibility that Ichigo was crossing the dimensions in something of a long cut that doesnt represent the same distance.
Also note that after Ichigos cloak forces the barriers open, no travel to or from Soul king palace takes a significant amount of time. This includes Lille Barro (http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-654.html), who, by scaling could easily put everyone in Bleach t relativistic from fighting Nanao and Kyoraku, neither of whom are known for their speed and would directly contradict some upper bounds like Gin's lie about mach 500.
I think the most consistent explanation is dimensional wonkiness. You bypass it by having the Soul King's powers, the Oken, or something related, or using dimensional cheating yourself, or breaking the barrier. I dont think the barriers are physical shields at all.
You can construct an analogy to the Koryu / Kototsu. These are barriers employed by Soul Society to restrict travel between dimensions and they introduce weird spacetime distortion if you dont follow the rules exactly. With the dangai the rule is pretty much "pass quickly and dont touch anything". With the soul king palace you need a legit Oken.
Tenjiro told Ichigo it takes a week walking down stairs using Shunpo:
http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-555-page-5.html
But he decided to through himself at full speed:
http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-555-page-13.html
And we have a time frame for Ichigo getting there:
From the Clock Tower in Seireitei, and Ichibei's statement.
The Quincy take over Seireitei began at 5 pm the first day.
http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-546-page-11.html
Ichigo went down after 3 hours at 8 pm
http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-555-page-7.html
Ichigo arrived at 5:15 am the next day.
http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-581-page-21.html
That's 9 hours and 15 minutes or 33,300 seconds.
I guess none of this really addresses the fact that Soul king palace is in a separate dimension, not a mere distance, protected by the Oken.
Ichigo travelled down not with direct use of an Oken, but with a cloak made of Oken. The mechanics of his travel are completely diffferent from every other travel to and from the Soul King palace. For instance, in Ichigos case the barriers were forced open and could not close, whereas in none of the royal guard travels does this happen. Thus we should be open to the possibility that Ichigo was crossing the dimensions in something of a long cut that doesnt represent the same distance.
Also note that after Ichigos cloak forces the barriers open, no travel to or from Soul king palace takes a significant amount of time. This includes Lille Barro (http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-654.html), who, by scaling could easily put everyone in Bleach t relativistic from fighting Nanao and Kyoraku, neither of whom are known for their speed and would directly contradict some upper bounds like Gin's lie about mach 500.
I think the most consistent explanation is dimensional wonkiness. You bypass it by having the Soul King's powers, the Oken, or something related, or using dimensional cheating yourself, or breaking the barrier. I dont think the barriers are physical shields at all.
You can construct an analogy to the Koryu / Kototsu. These are barriers employed by Soul Society to restrict travel between dimensions and they introduce weird spacetime distortion if you dont follow the rules exactly. With the dangai the rule is pretty much "pass quickly and dont touch anything". With the soul king palace you need a legit Oken.
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I hope youre not suggesting I havent read Bleach multiple times over. Is this kind of poisoning the well encouraged on this wiki?M11UTD said:
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I hope youre not suggesting I havent read Bleach multiple times over. Is this kind of poisoning the well encouraged on this wiki?
Don't worry about it man. Even if it was what he is suggesting his words are empty and meaningless. Let's not give it purpose yea?
Don't worry about it man. Even if it was what he is suggesting his words are empty and meaningless. Let's not give it purpose yea?
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btw the gist of my point isnt to say there isnt a great distance, but that the dimension part of the equation can end up screwing straightforward distance calcs. Thus im inclined to say "go with a distance calc that scales best to other speed feats" rather than using this as a basis of scaling. Id be happy to attribute to strange barrier behavior anything that doesnt fit in.
The distance calc heavily influences Yhwachs lifting and speed which because hes fought the Ichigo, Aizen, and heck Renji and Orihime, intersects with the rest of the series in a grand way.
The distance calc heavily influences Yhwachs lifting and speed which because hes fought the Ichigo, Aizen, and heck Renji and Orihime, intersects with the rest of the series in a grand way.
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I'm tired. Going to bed. I'll debunk Neatheneath in the morning, and hopefully is the last time he replies about this assumptions he is claiming. Ever heard of Occam's razor rule? I noticed that he is a new user and his first comment was to downplay Gremmy's meteor calc. I'll leave at that for today. Also, Gin Mach 500 was confirmed to be true by the last databook, and his other attack that Ichigo evaded was x2 that speed. Gin's speed is Mach 1000 OBD wiki has it like that. So does who said that he only lied to Aizen were right all along. o3o
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Further adding: http://*****************/read-online/Bleach-chapter-621.html
The eyeball monsters, which were falling from soul king palace, reached seireitei in a very short time (practically instantly). So unless there tens of thousands of times Ichigo's speed, you cant treat their distance similarly.
The eyeball monsters, which were falling from soul king palace, reached seireitei in a very short time (practically instantly). So unless there tens of thousands of times Ichigo's speed, you cant treat their distance similarly.
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@AppleLord could you cite the rule im violating? Im sure i followed them to the best of my ability but I am new.
In fact its a rule that we cant use Gin to upgrade Bleach characters.
In fact its a rule that we cant use Gin to upgrade Bleach characters.
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Is called short time frame, Naruto uses a lot for speed feats. Remember, Naruto and Sasuke got to the valley in two panels, after Kaguya.
Im well aware of short time frame. The point Im trying to make is that they were falling in a short time frame so it couldnt have been an ultramassive distance as suggested by Ichigo's descent.
So either (a) they are thousands of times faster than Ichigos top speed (in which case how does byakuya hit them at all) OR (b) the distance they travelled wasnt so huge thanks to dimensional warping.
Anything that travels there and back after Ichigo breaks the Soul King barrier should not necessarily be subject to the same "distance" that Ichigo took. Soul King palace is a different dimension, not just some castle in the sky. Ichigo breaking the barriers may have opened up that dimension, screwing up apparent distance calcs.
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Neatheneath said:
- It could had been the same distance, they are just faster. Combat speed is not the same as travel speed. There's also a rule about that a long with reaction speed.
- Was there any mention of the gates been sealed? I thought Yhwach said they remained opened? Mimihagi, eye oozes and Lille traveled the same speed. Lille can't be calc as anything, because he felt from there. Not combat speed.
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Neatheneath said:
- When the barriers are close there isn't any distance. I can agree to that, but Ichigo remained those open. So a distance existed, and we do have a time frame for it. I posted it above.
- Gin did say that Aizen's strenght was beyond the Espada and the Captains. Source: Chapter 390
- Aizen was above Ichigo who Unohana said to had x2 the reiatsu of a Captain. And he took out Harribel with ease. Source: Chapter 376
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Are we still waiting for calcs?
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When is it said he evaporates all water on a planet? Didn't we only see panels of him affecting the water in Seireitei?
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Yamamoto in tiers is way above Gremmy and shikai Kenpachi it's quite obvious it was affecting the planet... It was stated multiple times as well. RoydYhwach should be above them as well since Haschwalt took a back seat for the fight.Damage3245 said:
The country level calc for Yhwach lifting the wandenreich is done by calculating a free-fall distance while in the manga Ichigo was going at mach speeds (clearly) so there's no way it can be just country level.
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http://www.**********.com/bleach/507/8
I double checked and Toshiro is defiantly talking about all of soul society. This would make sense since if he was only talking about sereitei Toshiro would have still been able to use his Zanpakuto by using water from one of the districts outside of sereitei.
I double checked and Toshiro is defiantly talking about all of soul society. This would make sense since if he was only talking about sereitei Toshiro would have still been able to use his Zanpakuto by using water from one of the districts outside of sereitei.
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Didn't it start raining shortly after Yama's death, when Ichigo arrived in Soul Society? How is that consistent with all moisture disappearing?
Also this: "Yamamoto in tiers is way above Gremmy and shikai Kenpachi it's quite obvious it was affecting the planet... It was stated multiple times as well. RoydYhwach should be above them as well since Haschwalt took a back seat for the fight." isn't relevant to my question.
Also this: "Yamamoto in tiers is way above Gremmy and shikai Kenpachi it's quite obvious it was affecting the planet... It was stated multiple times as well. RoydYhwach should be above them as well since Haschwalt took a back seat for the fight." isn't relevant to my question.
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Vaporizing all the water on a planet like Earth would be in the double digit Petatons.
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It is. It means that Yamamoto in shikai can affect the seireitei just as much as they can. The statements for the meteor impact said it will wipe seireitei off the map while for Yamamoto's it's stated to be the Soul Society. Yamamoto being much stronger than them means it's not an outlier, and there's more: there was a fight between Grimmjow and Ichigo that lasted 11 seconds when they were mid-tiers at best, Ichigo had to hurry to end that fight. Just like Yamamoto... Want to scale the 11 second fight to the amount of time it would take for Yamamoto to destroy Soul Society maybe?
Also: Yamamoto is a little below Ichibei, who also has planetary range with his ink.
Also: Yamamoto is a little below Ichibei, who also has planetary range with his ink.
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Yeah, I'd rather place Yama-jii at Low 6-B or 6-B in Bankai. I was just answering the question specifically of what it would take to vaporize all the water on a planet (like Earth).
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Oh, sorry.PaChi2 said:
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Yes.PaChi2 said:
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Small country level (Barely) is agreed upon by every single calculation including the half dozen already listed. As for the statements made:
1. Soul Society is never ever called a planet
2. Yamamoto does not even come close to destroying it anyway which is hyperbole
Seems just about everyone agrees so can Soldier (Since he's an admin) make the change to his profile?
1. Soul Society is never ever called a planet
2. Yamamoto does not even come close to destroying it anyway which is hyperbole
Seems just about everyone agrees so can Soldier (Since he's an admin) make the change to his profile?
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Yamamoto is nowhere near Gremmy or Shikai Kenpachi's power. Yamamoto fear the strength of Kenpachi and stop teaching him Kendo. (The final result of his training with Unohana.) While Soul Society has been confirmed and stated to be a parallel world to the world of the living multiply times and by different sources; Manga, movie and databooks ...etc. Is clearly a hyperbole. Toshiro has no way of sensing the water of the entire world.
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@Damage3245 the water was evaporating slowly so there was still some left
@Soldier Thanks for answering, it didn't happen instantly but it was relatively quick so the value would likely be around the same level
@PacChi2 Kubo doesn't research everything he says, 15 million degrees shouldn't be taken seriously when there are multiple statements that back up a higher value. Kubo throws out values sometimes that don't make sense with scaling, Mach 500 Gin anyone?
@AppleLord Just because he fears Kenny doesn't mean he's weaker than him. They fear him because he could betray soul society and kill almost everyone. The last thing Central 46 would want is Yama and Unrestricted Kenny bashing it out and killing everyone.
@Soldier Thanks for answering, it didn't happen instantly but it was relatively quick so the value would likely be around the same level
@PacChi2 Kubo doesn't research everything he says, 15 million degrees shouldn't be taken seriously when there are multiple statements that back up a higher value. Kubo throws out values sometimes that don't make sense with scaling, Mach 500 Gin anyone?
@AppleLord Just because he fears Kenny doesn't mean he's weaker than him. They fear him because he could betray soul society and kill almost everyone. The last thing Central 46 would want is Yama and Unrestricted Kenny bashing it out and killing everyone.
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@Amlad22
Why shouldn't 15 million be taken seriously? It is a precise figure and is also, without coincidence, the temperature of the sun's core (remember how Yama-jii called himself in Bankai "The Embodiment of the Sun"). Kubo clearly did his research on this one.
Why shouldn't 15 million be taken seriously? It is a precise figure and is also, without coincidence, the temperature of the sun's core (remember how Yama-jii called himself in Bankai "The Embodiment of the Sun"). Kubo clearly did his research on this one.
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Soul Society is always called a world equal to the World of the Living. Even to the very end.Dr.Fix said:
Kenpachi got destroyed by Pernida and Gerard. Yamamoto simply wanted to persevere the safety of the rukongai people by not training Kenpachi. Yamamoto is obviously much stronger than Gremmy and Kenpachi (Yama vs YhwRoyd was called a boss battle as well).
In fact Yamamoto is the next step in the verse between destroying the Seireitei and destroying all the worlds. In other words Yamamoto being capable of destroying SS is consistent with the power scaling.
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You say things like "Yama is obviously much stronger than Gremmy and Kenpachi" without offering evidence for your position. Something that may be obvious to you won't be obvious to everyone else here.
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@Soldier Kubo gives that number, but yet gives multiple statements from knowledgable characters that would place Yama much higher than the 15 million number. I think it's safe to say that 3 statements from Unohana, Toshiro and Yama himself mean more than one given number.
Just in case anyone is worried about a huge bleach upgrade, only Yama would scale to this since nobody has power on his level. Even Yhwach was scared of fighting him and had to steal his bankai. The same Yhwach that wasn't scared at all about fighting Ichibei. An argument could be made for Ichigo scaling, but that's about it.
Just in case anyone is worried about a huge bleach upgrade, only Yama would scale to this since nobody has power on his level. Even Yhwach was scared of fighting him and had to steal his bankai. The same Yhwach that wasn't scared at all about fighting Ichibei. An argument could be made for Ichigo scaling, but that's about it.
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If you have not read Bleach then why are you posting in this thread? Lol... Absolutely pathetic. Only Yhwach out of all the Sternritters (includes characters such as: Gremmy, Pernida, Gerard, Haschwalt, Askin) is strong enough to handle Yamamoto's bankai.Damage3245 said:
And Ichibei (the king of the shinigami) stole 100 nights from 100 years in the future just like that... That's another top-tier with planetary range, and he fought Yhwach.
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