(Bleach) New resistances for some Bleach characters.

[KarematsuShinjuu]

The resistance in question is for Ichibē and probably the other Royal Guard members, and is resistance to biological manipulation.

Spoiler: Read if you think "Bleach should have resistance to biological manipulation on account of being souls!"

Now some of you will probably say "OP, bleach characters are souls! They don't have biology to manipulate!" Nah, they do. We already know that Mayuri can influence shit as specific as the hippocampus, Syazel can influence stuff as specific as the tendons, all quincy use Blut to influence their blood, the royal guard has bones, and Pernida can influence the nerves. Thus the shinigami and other souls have conventional organ systems, musculoskeletal systems, circulatory systems and nervous systems, i.e. conventional biology. Thus if the person can influence the soul (i.e. has any degree of soul manipulation) and has biological manipulation, they can influence Bleach's soul biology. Of course someone who doesn't have soul manipulation can't manipulate their biology but at that point don't match the verses lol.

Let's move on.

Ichibē can resist biological manipulation when Blut Vene Ahnaben tries to invade his body. He then implies invading a Royal Guard member's body is useless. This enough should give them resistance to at least blood manipulation and possibly complete biological manipulation, but there's more! The chapter in question.
Ichibe is resisting his biology (circulatory system) being taken over, as:
a) Blut works via pumping reishi into someone's circulatory system. Reishi is matter in bleachverse
b) Using it to control someone (via the veins, a part of biology) is biological manipulation.
c) Resisting said event is resistance to biological manipulation.

As I stated before, Pernida can manipulate the nervous system of people. When he does so, he evolves to their level. But considering you can't invade the body of a Royal Guard member, he shouldn't have manipulated any Royal Guard member right? Assuming he did, he should have any one of them's speech patterns, as shown here. However when Pernida meets Kenpachi and Mayuri, his speech patterns aren't even coherent, let alone be already established. Thus the supposition that he used his nerves to actually invade a Royal Guard's body is disproven, as he had to have done something in that fight. Note that Pernida has pretty high AP even via hieng pfiell and he can manipulate non biological stuff too so he isn't useless if he can't directly manipulate nerves.


Thus Ichibe should have something like this:
Resistance to Biological Manipulation (he resisted Blut Vene Ahnaben, a form of body control that works via pumping reishi through the blood vessels)

The other royal guard should get something like this:
Resistance to Plot Happenstance (Despite being really hype, they ended up being kinda cringe)

 

[BleachHollow]

Nice job. I agree.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

bump

 

[Damage3245]

When did the Royal Guard resist Pernida's nerve manipulation? You can't say that just because the fight was off-screen that his abilities didn't work on them. Maybe they were taken out by the other Royal Guard.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

What Damage said. I only recall Lille Barro bullying them and I think Gerard?

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

When did the Royal Guard resist Pernida's nerve manipulation? You can't say that just because the fight was off-screen that his abilities didn't work on them. Maybe they were taken out by the other Royal Guard.

That would imply Pernida didn't use his abilities on them even once, and considering he picked up Mayuri's speech patterns after just entering his pinky, that makes no sense.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Okay but if we don’t see it happen and he didn’t gain any of their intelligence, Occam’s razor says that he didn’t do anything to them in that fight, not that he did and it didn’t work.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

What Damage said. I only recall Lille Barro bullying them and I think Gerard?

The four of them defeated the four royal guard members off screen. It's a logical assumption backed by on screen logic anyways.

And we don't see the Royal Guard bullied by Gerard, it was Askin and Lille.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So we don’t see Pernida do anything? Disagree then. Ichibe’s statement doesn’t mean anything by itself for biological manipulation.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The most you can give this to is Ichibe, I disagree for the other Squad 0 members.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Okay but if we don’t see it happen and he didn’t gain any of their intelligence, Occam’s razor says that he didn’t do anything to them in that fight, not that he did and it didn’t work.

Neither does Occam's razor work that way, and nor is it baseless to assume that Pernida didn't do something at least. His first move is to use nerves, and please explain how:
1. He fought the Royal Guard and did literally nothing.
2. He didn't insert his nerves in them (which we know as fact).

The most you can give this to is Ichibe, I disagree for the other Squad 0 members.

Ichibē does state it as being something not exclusive to him. He's pretty clear about what's exclusive to him in the entire fight, stating that he (Yhwach) couldn't hope to invade a Royal Guard's body (instead of stating his own; he never, ever refers to any other ability of his own as a part of a collective) thus at least for Ichibē (whose case is imo strong) its pretty clear that you can't "invade" his body, meaning he gains biological manipulation resistance.

The royal guard stuff is quite axillary to the entire argument, especially the Pernida proof. Ichibē is the most interesting person here to argue for anyways, and it's pretty clear that he resists biological manipulation as shown when he casually flexes out of something Yhwach was sure would work, and casually states that it's pretty dumb to invade a Royal Guard's body. While it is a logical assumption from him to assume that maybe a Royal Guard's body has something resisting biological manipulation (and we know that they do have something different i.e. their bones and hair are Oken) and the Pernida "proof" is more of a piece of consistent storytelling than anything else, Ichibē should definitely have Biological Manipulation resistance on account of resisting biological manipulation. The other stuff is honestly hypotheticals, consistencies and logical assumptions (which in my opinion hold water) but let's be real, Ichibē did it and justified it on screen, and we have no reason to believe he can't.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Oh God, another Bleach CRT, please God, make these stop........

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Oh God, another Bleach CRT, please God, make these stop........

REPENT, FOR BLEACH SHALL HAVE CRTs FOR ALL ETERNITY

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Neither does Occam's razor work that way,

Yes it does. If you can’t show him doing so, don’t have evidence that he did and in fact presented evidence that he didn’t, the most likely outcome is that he didn’t fight them.

and nor is it baseless to assume that Pernida didn't do something at least. His first move is to use nerves, and please explain how:
1. He fought the Royal Guard and did literally nothing.

Show him fighting them. Show him actually interacting with them.

2. He didn't insert his nerves in them (which we know as fact).

No. We don’t know that as fact. If we did, we wouldn’t be having this issue. Just drop the scan of Pernida invading them with nerves or drop this argument. It’s nothing but conjecture unless you have a feat or statement of him invading them.

Ichibē does state it as being something not exclusive to him. He's pretty clear about what's exclusive to him in the entire fight, stating that he (Yhwach) couldn't hope to invade a Royal Guard's body (instead of stating his own; he never, ever refers to any other ability of his own as a part of a collective) thus at least for Ichibē (whose case is imo strong) its pretty clear that you can't "invade" his body, meaning he gains biological manipulation resistance.

Did you read the chapter you linked? Ichibei says that Yhwach invaded his body, not that he couldn’t invade it. We even see the visible of Ichibei’s arm being invaded. Ahnaben also doesn’t have anything to do with biological manip, it’s absorption/corrosion.

The royal guard stuff is quite axillary to the entire argument, especially the Pernida proof.

I’m sorry? What? The Royal Guard stuff isn’t auxiliary to anything, it’s the entire argument. Without it, your CRT doesn’t have anything to stand on. Ichibe never had to deal with biological manip and Pernida was never shown to invade the other RG with his nerves.

Ichibē is the most interesting person here to argue for anyways, and it's pretty clear that he resists biological manipulation as shown when he casually flexes out of something Yhwach was sure would work, and casually states that it's pretty dumb to invade a Royal Guard's body.

He literally doesn’t say this, in fact he says the direct opposite in the scan you provided in the OP.

While it is a logical assumption from him to assume that maybe a Royal Guard's body has something resisting biological manipulation (and we know that they do have something different i.e. their bones and hair are Oken) and the Pernida "proof" is more of a piece of consistent storytelling than anything else, Ichibē should definitely have Biological Manipulation resistance on account of resisting biological manipulation. The other stuff is honestly hypotheticals, consistencies and logical assumptions (which in my opinion hold water) but let's be real, Ichibē did it and justified it on screen, and we have no reason to believe he can't.

Please go and read the chapter you linked. It doesn’t support anything you are pushing. Yhwach even explains what Ichibei proceeds to resist and it isn’t biological manip.

The only person who gets any resistance is Ichibei and it’s for absorption and not biological manip.

 

[AppleLord]

This could be because the Royal Guard members bones are made from the Soul King. The so called Oken. Each one of them is a walking Oken that Aizen tried to recreate.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Maybe a possibly for Squad 0 and full for Ichibe?

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Yes it does. If you can’t show him doing so, don’t have evidence that he did and in fact presented evidence that he didn’t, the most likely outcome is that he didn’t fight them.

Spoiler: A whole spiel on Occam's razor

You see,
1. Occam's razor isn't a rigorous method of criticism of theory, it's a heuristic one.
2. It doesn't work by how "simple" an argument is, it works by the number of assumptions taken (as in its original form, law of economy). The theory with the least amount of assumptions is the "simpler" one. Let's establish one thing, that Pernida most definitely fought the Royal Guard. It is pretty heavily implied and feel free to say why it isn't. I postulate that his powers didn't work, i.e. one assumption. You postulate he didn't fight them in the first place, which is also a single assumption. Occam's razor here would suggest that both theories are equally economical and thus both equally probable. You might argue that the Pernida fighting Royal Guard is an assumption in itself, which I'll address below, this isn't even the main reason Occam's razor shouldn't have even be brought up in the first place.
3. The final nail in the coffin, Occam's razor is only applicable on competing theories hypothesizing the same result, not different results. We are arguing for different results in the first place, Occam’s razor is completely and utterly useless here. By your inaccurate application of Occam’s razor, a geostationary universe would be better than a heliocentric solar system, and while you are using rather inaccurately a principle from the 1300s, don’t use other stuff from the 1300s yeah?

Show him fighting them. Show him actually interacting with them.

Nah mate, you leave four Schutzstaffel and four Royal Guard alone with each other, with the end result being the defeat of the Royal Guard, and expect anyone to actually believe that the most shinigami hating of them alongside Lille wouldn't have done anything? The burden of proof is not on me to prove that Pernida didn't fight anyone, for logic dictates he fought someone at the very least. Construct an argument on why he wouldn't have fought anyone for me, will you?

Did you read the chapter you linked?

Yes, but it seems you didn't understand a single bit of it

Ichibei says that Yhwach invaded his body, not that he couldn’t invade it.

He said "First, a mere human dares to intrude the Royal Palace. Now, you dare intrude upon a Royal Guard's body. You ought to learn your place."
It isn't as if he intruded upon his body, he challenges Yhwach for daring to intrude upon a member of the Royal Guard's body. You do realise there's a difference? Firstly I'm not arguing about immunity here, I'm arguing resistance. Here's the page. Read it. Paraphrasing, "Resistance is the power to withstand the effects of certain abilities through varying means." He withstood Blut Vene Ahnaben's effects, thus resistance. He attributed that to having a Royal Guard's body (which we know is special) thus it being for every member of the Royal Guard.

Ahnaben also doesn’t have anything to do with biological manip, it’s absorption/corrosion.

Are you actually for real? Blut is pumping reiryoku through your veins, or blood manipulation, a subset of biological manipulation. That much is accepted in this wiki. If it has the name blut, and Yhwach states it being the expansion of Blut Vene outside the body, we will still work under it being Blut, because that is its name. When it attempts to absorb Ichibe, the same pattern that emerges on someone using Blut forms, and when Ichibē breaks it, his blood vessels are quite clearly showing. So are Yhwach's. See, this is what's frustrating. Why would you argue for Blut not being Blut?

I’m sorry? What? The Royal Guard stuff isn’t auxiliary to anything, it’s the entire argument. Without it, your CRT doesn’t have anything to stand on. Ichibe never had to deal with biological manip and Pernida was never shown to invade the other RG with his nerves.

The entire argument is Ichibē resisting Blut Vene Ahnaben, not the Royal Guard and Pernida stuff. It's circumstantial evidence supporting direct scans. Do you have any comprehensive skills left or is it all just lost in the pursuit of being a contrarian?

 

[Damage3245]

Construct an argument on why he wouldn't have fought anyone for me, will you?

The Royal Guard might have already been taken out by the other elite Sternritters.

He attributed that to having a Royal Guard's body (which we know is special) thus it being for every member of the Royal Guard.

Actually he doesn't say the only reason he was able to resist is because he had a Royal Guard's body. He was pointing out that Yhwach dared to invade a Royal Guard's body as in referencing his status and that Yhwach is going beyond his place in doing so.

It's like saying "How dare you strike a member of the Royal Family?" So far as I can tell, Ichibe's statement is more to do with Yhwach's daring.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

The Royal Guard might have already been taken out by the other elite Sternritters.

It took a fair bit of time for them to be defeated (implied to be equal to the time it took for Yhwach to beat Ichibē. How would the Schutzstaffel most hung up on the identity of a quincy not have done anything to anyone in that time? You're actually implying that he didn’t even touch the Royal Guard with his powers, because even when Pernida touched Mayuri's pinky he was beginning to show his speech patterns.

Actually he doesn't say the only reason he was able to resist is because he had a Royal Guard's body. He was pointing out that Yhwach dared to invade a Royal Guard's body as in referencing his status and that Yhwach is going beyond his place in doing so. It's like saying "How dare you strike a member of the Royal Family?" So far as I can tell, Ichibe's statement is more to do with Yhwach's daring.

While the other times Yhwach "dares to do something" Ichibē attributes it to his own power (speaking his name, cutting his power in half and him restoring it, attempting to steal his power, resisting his shikai with Almighty), this is the only instance he brings up his identity as a Royal Guard. But, in the end, I don't really want the only Royal Guard with feats to lose his own resistance because the other stuff didn’t mesh well enough. While the circumstantial evidence is clearly robust, it still is circumstantial evidence, with a statement from Yhwach. I'm quite willing to go:

Ichibē: Resistance to biological manipulation (resisted Blut Vene Ahnaben, a form of Blut, which works on the principle of blood manipulation)

other Royal Guard members:
Possibly resistance to biological manipulation (Ichibē considers invading a Royal Guard's body useless, Pernida showed no signs of having invaded their bodies after fighting them. However they don't have feats)

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Spoiler: A whole spiel on Occam's razor

You see,
1. Occam's razor isn't a rigorous method of criticism of theory, it's a heuristic one.
2. It doesn't work by how "simple" an argument is, it works by the number of assumptions taken (as in its original form, law of economy). The theory with the least amount of assumptions is the "simpler" one. Let's establish one thing, that Pernida most definitely fought the Royal Guard. It is pretty heavily implied and feel free to say why it isn't. I postulate that his powers didn't work, i.e. one assumption. You postulate he didn't fight them in the first place, which is also a single assumption. Occam's razor here would suggest that both theories are equally economical and thus both equally probable. You might argue that the Pernida fighting Royal Guard is an assumption in itself, which I'll address below, this isn't even the main reason Occam's razor shouldn't have even be brought up in the first place.
3. The final nail in the coffin, Occam's razor is only applicable on competing theories hypothesizing the same result, not different results. We are arguing for different results in the first place, Occam’s razor is completely and utterly useless here. By your inaccurate application of Occam’s razor, a geostationary universe would be better than a heliocentric solar system, and while you are using rather inaccurately a principle from the 1300s, don’t use other stuff from the 1300s yeah?

First off, get off your high horse and quit acting like you know what you are talking about.

Secondly, we very much do have the same result. The result is Squad Zero taking a fat L from the SS. You are saying that Pernida was there, thus he fought them. That is your assumption. I am saying he did what he was shown to do, not fight them.

On the remarkably high chance that your ability to count is as abysmal as your comprehension of the English language and your opposition’s arguments, you made an assumption while I didn’t. That is why Occam’s razor is valid here.

Nah mate, you leave four Schutzstaffel and four Royal Guard alone with each other, with the end result being the defeat of the Royal Guard, and expect anyone to actually believe that the most shinigami hating of them alongside Lille wouldn't have done anything? The burden of proof is not on me to prove that Pernida didn't fight anyone, for logic dictates he fought someone at the very least. Construct an argument on why he wouldn't have fought anyone for me, will you?

If you actually read what I posted, you would have picked up on it by now.

1. Pernida is never shown to invade Squad 0 with his nerves.
2. Pernida’s starting move is to invade people and turn them into pulp. All of Zero Squad were still intact after the fight ended.
3. Pernida never grows in the intelligence department despite only needing to touch someone to start evolving.
4. Going under your entirely wrong stance that Ahnaben is bio manip (in the context of it affecting others), Ichibei doesn’t passively resist bio and has to actively do so. You yourself said that Pernida began evolving just from invading Mayuri’s pinky. Why has he not evolved after invading Zero Squad’s bodies? Them being able to force his nerves out like Ichibei forced away Ahnaben doesn’t stop him from evolving.

Yes, but it seems you didn't understand a single bit of it

This coming from the guy who is told something is absorption and insists on conflating it with bio manip.

He said "First, a mere human dares to intrude the Royal Palace. Now, you dare intrude upon a Royal Guard's body. You ought to learn your place."
It isn't as if he intruded upon his body, he challenges Yhwach for daring to intrude upon a member of the Royal Guard's body. You do realise there's a difference?

You do realise there is context to that statement that you included in the quote? Yhwach dared to invade SKP? He did invade SKP. Yhwach dared to invade a RG body? He did invade Ichibei’s body. Ichibei repelling his invasion doesn’t mean there wasn’t an invasion.

Firstly I'm not arguing about immunity here, I'm arguing resistance. Here's the page. Read it. Paraphrasing, "Resistance is the power to withstand the effects of certain abilities through varying means." He withstood Blut Vene Ahnaben's effects, thus resistance. He attributed that to having a Royal Guard's body (which we know is special) thus it being for every member of the Royal Guard.

And Ahnaben’s effect is absorption. I literally said in my previous post (which you responded to) that he resists absorption. Ya know? Ahnaben’s effect. The very thing you are saying he should resist.

Are you actually for real? Blut is pumping reiryoku through your veins, or blood manipulation, a subset of biological manipulation.

So not bio manip. If you want to be really generous, that would be blood manip at most (it isn’t though since Yhwach is manipulating reishi to perform Blut, not blood) since that’s all that Ichibei would possibly have to deal since Pernida has not been proven to have used his nerves on Squad 0.

That much is accepted in this wiki. If it has the name blut, and Yhwach states it being the expansion of Blut Vene outside the body, we will still work under it being Blut, because that is its name. When it attempts to absorb Ichibe, the same pattern that emerges on someone using Blut forms, and when Ichibē breaks it, his blood vessels are quite clearly showing. So are Yhwach's. See, this is what's frustrating. Why would you argue for Blut not being Blut?

And Blut has never been about manipulating blood. It’s flooding your veins or arteries with reishi. I’m not arguing for Blut to not be Blut, that’s you.

The entire argument is Ichibē resisting Blut Vene Ahnaben, not the Royal Guard and Pernida stuff. It's circumstantial evidence supporting direct scans. Do you have any comprehensive skills left or is it all just lost in the pursuit of being a contrarian?

No. Ichibei resisting Ahnaben is resistance to absorption/corrosion. It isn’t bio manip, it’s not even blood manip. Pernida’s nerves is the actual thing that would grant resistance to bio manip but you can’t even prove that he used it on them since everything points to him not having used it on them.

 

[AppleLord]

People are hostile again because is not going the way they want. Acting like kids again. :/

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Spoiler: Okami's rusted katana

First off, get off your high horse and quit acting like you know what you are talking about.

Wondrous, for you have been staring into a mirror. Why are you irritated whilst reaping the consequences of bringing in argumentative principles you didn't know the workings of?
Occam's is a heuristic and not a rigorous tool in proving theories, but you insist in its rigorous nature, it doesn't work on theories with different results but you insist it does (mine being Royal Guard has biomanip resistance, yours being they don't, did you seriously forget the point of the thread?) and it works on economy of assumptions and you insist on misquoting it as "simple haha" (mine being Pernida fought the Royal Guard, yours being he didn't, since it happened off screen that means both are assumptions)

Secondly, we very much do have the same result. The result is Squad Zero taking a fat L from the SS.

We are arguing about two different theories, Pernida affecting any Royal Guard, and Pernida not affecting any Royal Guard. If Occam’s was applicable here, it'd go something like:
Simple: Pernida didn't fight the Royal Guard because the other Schutzstaffel finished the job instantly.
Complicated: Pernida didn't fight the Royal Guard because he, wanting to prove his valor, did a backflip, couldn't do it because he's a hand, broke his wrist, which acts as a neck, thus incapacitating himself from the fight till his recovery by ingesting a Aceclofenac+Paracetamol salt for some reduction in inflammation and waiting it out, with his cloak's collar acting as a wrist brace.

Both explain why Pernida might have sat out the Royal Guard, but going by the correct application of Occam’s razor, the first is more probable because of economy of assumptions.

You are saying that Pernida was there, thus he fought them. That is your assumption. I am saying he did what he was shown to do, not fight them.

He wasn't shown to not fight them. Assuming what happened off-screen is an assumption. That is what an assumption is.

On the remarkably high chance that your ability to count is as abysmal as your comprehension of the English language and your opposition’s arguments, you made an assumption while I didn’t. That is why Occam’s razor is valid here.

You did make an assumption: that Pernida didn't fight them. Since everything happened off screen, unless you're Kubo (in that case hi) you very well are making an assumption.

Spoiler: Pernida’s spiel

If you actually read what I posted, you would have picked up on it by now.

1. Pernida is never shown to invade Squad 0 with his nerves.

Making assumptions on what happened off screen.

1. Pernida’s starting move is to invade people and turn them into pulp. All of Zero Squad were still intact after the fight ended.

It's actually invading someone's arm and controlling it.
He fought:
Kenpachi, first move being invading his arm and using nerves to control it.
Mayuri, where he again invaded his arm and attempted to control it. Mayuri had rearranged his inner physiology so it didn't work.
His opening move (read it again, opening moves, in his only on screen fight, has been to invade arms, not entire bodies.
Considering you seem fairly confident in your numerical prowess, confirm for me that the amount of intact, on screen arms you see in the panels showing the beaten Royal Guards is 2.

1. Pernida never grows in the intelligence department despite only needing to touch someone to start evolving.

...read what I've linked above, in the OP. His speech patterns do change when he touches someone, and thus him not having evolved after fighting the Royal Guard suggests his powers didn't work.

1. Going under your entirely wrong stance that Ahnaben is bio manip (in the context of it affecting others), Ichibei doesn’t passively resist bio and has to actively do so.

Yeah, that is what resistance is.

1. You yourself said that Pernida began evolving just from invading Mayuri’s pinky. Why has he not evolved after invading Zero Squad’s bodies?

Because he couldn’t? That's the argument?

Spoiler: Some mixed Ichibē and Blut stuff

This coming from the guy who is told something is absorption and insists on conflating it with bio manip.

Blut's accepted as blood manipulation on this site, so make a CRT if you don't like it.

You do realise there is context to that statement that you included in the quote? Yhwach dared to invade SKP? He did invade SKP. Yhwach dared to invade a RG body? He did invade Ichibei’s body. Ichibei repelling his invasion doesn’t mean there wasn’t an invasion.

And if you knew what resistance was, this comment wouldn't have been made. I'm arguing for resistance, not immunity.

So not bio manip. If you want to be really generous, that would be blood manip at most (it isn’t though since Yhwach is manipulating reishi to perform Blut, not blood) since that’s all that Ichibei would possibly have to deal since Pernida has not been proven to have used his nerves on Squad 0.

Blood manipulation is a facet of biological manipulation, unless you're going to argue that blood, and all biology, is a facet of advanced organic chemistry so it should be chemical manipulation, which in that case fair enough.

And Blut has never been about manipulating blood. It’s flooding your veins or arteries with reishi. I’m not arguing for Blut to not be Blut, that’s you.

Make a CRT.

No. Ichibei resisting Ahnaben is resistance to absorption/corrosion. It isn’t bio manip, it’s not even blood manip. Pernida’s nerves is the actual thing that would grant resistance to bio manip but you can’t even prove that he used it on them since everything points to him not having used it on them.

Do you know what blood is?

When Blut Vene Ahnaben attempts to absorb Ichibe, the same pattern that emerges on someone using Blut forms, which is accepted as blood manipulation (a facet of biological manipulation) and when Ichibē breaks it, his blood vessels are quite clearly showing. So are Yhwach's. Blut Vene Ahnaben is quite clearly biological manipulation, which lends credence to Ichibē resisting biological manipulation.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Spoiler: Okami's rusted katana

Wondrous, for you have been staring into a mirror. Why are you irritated whilst reaping the consequences of bringing in argumentative principles you didn't know the workings of?

Where was I irritated? Exasperated is more accurate.

Occam's is a heuristic and not a rigorous tool in proving theories, but you insist in its rigorous nature, it doesn't work on theories with different results but you insist it does (mine being Royal Guard has biomanip resistance, yours being they don't, did you seriously forget the point of the thread?) and it works on economy of assumptions and you insist on misquoting it as "simple haha" (mine being Pernida fought the Royal Guard, yours being he didn't, since it happened off screen that means both are assumptions)

Except I am not using it in a rigorous nature? I am using it as support for my argument.

1. The fight starts, Pernida is there.
2. He is shown to do one thing (destroying the cage) and that’s all.
3. Offscreen stuff
4. The fight ends with all of Squad 0 being downed.

We start and end at the same place, we disagree on how we got there. Its valid to apply Occam’s razor.

We are arguing about two different theories, Pernida affecting any Royal Guard, and Pernida not affecting any Royal Guard. If Occam’s was applicable here, it'd go something like:
Simple: Pernida didn't fight the Royal Guard because the other Schutzstaffel finished the job instantly.
Complicated: Pernida didn't fight the Royal Guard because he, wanting to prove his valor, did a backflip, couldn't do it because he's a hand, broke his wrist, which acts as a neck, thus incapacitating himself from the fight till his recovery by ingesting a Aceclofenac+Paracetamol salt for some reduction in inflammation and waiting it out, with his cloak's collar acting as a wrist brace.

Both explain why Pernida might have sat out the Royal Guard, but going by the correct application of Occam’s razor, the first is more probable because of economy of assumptions.

He wasn't shown to not fight them. Assuming what happened off-screen is an assumption. That is what an assumption is.

You don’t get that I haven’t made an assumption, do you? I am not the one saying what Pernida did off screen. I am telling you to prove what you are saying he did off screen and then bringing up a bunch of stuff that goes against your stance.

You did make an assumption: that Pernida didn't fight them. Since everything happened off screen, unless you're Kubo (in that case hi) you very well are making an assumption.

No. I made an observation. He isn’t shown to fight them, the damage he causes when he fights people wasn’t shown, and he didn’t evolve like he does when he fights. Me saying he didn’t fight them is what we see happen.

Making assumptions on what happened off screen.

It's actually invading someone's arm and controlling it.
He fought:
Kenpachi, first move being invading his arm and using nerves to control it.
Mayuri, where he again invaded his arm and attempted to control it. Mayuri had rearranged his inner physiology so it didn't work.
His opening move (read it again, opening moves, in his only on screen fight, has been to invade arms, not entire bodies.
Considering you seem fairly confident in your numerical prowess, confirm for me that the amount of intact, on screen arms you see in the panels showing the beaten Royal Guards is 2.

And can you tell me how many mangled limbs you see? Pretty sure it’s zero. Dunno about you but 2 > 0. Once again, there is more evidence to support me than there is to support you.

...read what I've linked above, in the OP. His speech patterns do change when he touches someone, and thus him not having evolved after fighting the Royal Guard suggests his powers didn't work.

Or, and get this, he didn’t use his nerves on them. Him not evolving doesn’t mean that they resisted his hax. So once again, quit ducking your burden of proof and prove he actually used his nerves on Squad 0.

Yeah, that is what resistance is.

……… you focused on the wrong thing there but aight.

Because he couldn’t? That's the argument?

Them being able to force his nerves out =/= him not evolving from the contact.

Blut's accepted as blood manipulation on this site, so make a CRT if you don't like it.

Did you even read how it’s limited blood manip? It gets that because the user in question floods their blood vessels allowing them to stem the flow of blood. They aren’t actually manipulating blood.

And if you knew what resistance was, this comment wouldn't have been made. I'm arguing for resistance, not immunity.

You understand that both would be resistance? One is simply passive and the other is active.

Blood manipulation is a facet of biological manipulation, unless you're going to argue that blood, and all biology, is a facet of advanced organic chemistry so it should be chemical manipulation, which in that case fair enough.

And Ahnaben is neither blood nor bio manip.

Make a CRT.

For what? Something that’s already on the profiles? They already explain that Blut isn’t the manipulation of blood, it’s pumping reishi into your blood vessels to amp yourself.

Do you know what blood is?

Oh goody, asking questions that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

When Blut Vene Ahnaben attempts to absorb Ichibe, the same pattern that emerges on someone using Blut forms,

And the same pattern appears mid air and on the ground. Are you telling me that Yhwach is manipulating the blood in the ground and air?

which is accepted as blood manipulation (a facet of biological manipulation)

You don’t go from X having a memory manip resistance feat to then proposing X resists mind manip because memory manip falls under it. They get resistance to what they show.

and when Ichibē breaks it, his blood vessels are quite clearly showing. So are Yhwach's.

Because Ahnaben corrodes and spreads the Blut to the things in contact with Yhwach, something he explains. Ichibei isn’t resisting Yhwach manipulating his blood/biology, he is resisting the corrosion and expelling the reishi that got pumped into his veins.

Blut Vene Ahnaben is quite clearly biological manipulation, which lends credence to Ichibē resisting biological manipulation.

Once again, that wouldn’t give him resistance to bio manip, only blood manip in the event staff agree with your ridiculous stance and don’t even think to look at the profiles that directly debunk you.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Spoiler: Oetsu's razor-sharp Sayafushi

We start and end at the same place, we disagree on how we got there. Its valid to apply Occam’s razor.

We are proving 2 different things. I have given many examples why Osho's soft brush isn't applicable here, but whatever. You're actively refusing to understand at this point. We are giving theories for 2 different things, and again, here's a final example why Oppa's chiseled pecs aren't useful here:
Fact: Sun rises in the east, sets in the west.
The two theories: Geostationary universe, Solar system model.
The simpler, more conservative theory: Sun orbits the earth, because that is how it looks.
The more complicated theory: Gravity exists, The sun is larger than the earth, the solar system exists and other planets also orbit the sun.
If we went by your application, Ohayo's gozaimasu would be applicable as both arrive at the same result. If we go by the correct application, Otto's Prussian Chopper wouldn't be applicable because both theories prove something else entirely. Do you understand now?

You don’t get that I haven’t made an assumption, do you? I am not the one saying what Pernida did off screen. I am telling you to prove what you are saying he did off screen and then bringing up a bunch of stuff that goes against your stance.
No. I made an observation. He isn’t shown to fight them, the damage he causes when he fights people wasn’t shown, and he didn’t evolve like he does when he fights. Me saying he didn’t fight them is what we see happen.

We see 2 arms, which are Oetsu's who got GG'ed on screen. We can't see any other person's arms. How did you go about making an observation of something you didn't see?

And can you tell me how many mangled limbs you see? Pretty sure it’s zero. Dunno about you but 2 > 0. Once again, there is more evidence to support me than there is to support you.

See above.

Spoiler: other stuff

Did you even read how it’s limited blood manip?

Yes, and that is a subset of biological manipulation.

For what? Something that’s already on the profiles? They already explain that Blut isn’t the manipulation of blood, it’s pumping reishi into your blood vessels to amp yourself.

And reishi means matter in bleachverse. Expelling matter being pumped into your veins for any reason counts as resisting biological manipulation. It's biological manipulation whether you like it or not.

And the same pattern appears mid air and on the ground. Are you telling me that Yhwach is manipulating the blood in the ground and air?

Pernida can also make his nerves to appear on the ground. Are you telling me you're arguing just because you're incredulous? Why are you arguing about the science of a fictional universe?

Because Ahnaben corrodes and spreads the Blut to the things in contact with Yhwach, something he explains. Ichibei isn’t resisting Yhwach manipulating his blood/biology, he is resisting the corrosion and expelling the reishi that got pumped into his veins.

Says Ichibe isn't resisting biological manipulation, directly says Ichibe is resisting his biology (circulatory system) being taken over.

@AnonymousBlank I don't really want to keep repeating myself over and over again, and neither do I want to argue any more about Edogawa Osamu's Anthology. I am sure at this point you must also be tired about having to write two essays per day, because I know I am. Would it be enough to put you under "Disagree" and we agree to never have to speak about this again?

For anyone else who's still watching (and enjoying the popcorn provided for your entertainment) Ichibe is resisting his biology (circulatory system) being taken over, as:
a) Blut works via pumping reishi into someone's circulatory system. Reishi is matter in bleachverse
b) Using it to control someone (via the veins, a part of biology) is biological manipulation.
c) Resisting said event is resistance to biological manipulation.

I don't give a flying **** about the other Royal Guard at this point.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’m fine with Ichibe

 

[AnonymousBlank]

If you are dropping the other RG stuff then I’m fine with not addressing that anymore.

Yhwach isn’t controlling Ichibe with his Blut though, he is invading his body to corrode/absorb him. Ichibe being able to expel the reishi wouldn’t be resisting bio manip. If you are so hung up on it, Ichibe has blood manip himself for flexing his blood to expel the reishi. Either way, he isn’t resisting bio or blood manip, he resists corrosion/absorption and has blood manip.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Bump

(Let's get this over with. Please be civil and succinct as I don't have enough time to write essays upon essays for thus thread. See above posts before any thoughts on disagreeing or agreeing. Thank you and hope to see this be sorted out properly.)