Bleach: Las Noches' Size 2.0

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

It's not, there's only one scan that made Las Noches look small, everything else has no size reference and we got a lot of quotes from Nestle to Night, the manga and even the scene of them running towards it that make Las Noches big.

It's not like Seireitei where Schrodinger Kubo comes up.

Also, even Cero Oscuras is still vaporization and able to destroy Las Noches.

 

[USklaverei]

Oh i see now, i thought you used that one but you used the newer one we have, no problem

[114590^3*((27136*1.37895 + 8649)^(1/2)/13568 - 93/13568)^2] = 120 Gigatons of TNT (Large Island level, High 6-C)

I do not agree with this method, we need to find the volume and then apply vaporization here, that's not the same as Gremmy's meteor.

 

[TataHakai]

I don't think we can randomly assign a golden rectangle role onto the shape when nothing suggests that.

Las Noches is a rectangle, so in case, this would be the best option.

Rectangle =/= Golden rectangle

That's not how it works, a golden rectangle is a very specific mathematic shape

 

[USklaverei]

Rectangle =/= Golden rectangle

That's not how it works, a golden rectangle is a very specific mathematic shape

I know, but we can not use pixels, so I think that would be the best option.

 

[TataHakai]

Rectangle =/= Golden rectangle

That's not how it works, a golden rectangle is a very specific mathematic shape

I know, but we can not use pixels, so I think that would be the best option.

The best option is to use the explosion calculator like the Gremmy calculation

@Imade i can assure you there is more than 1 Imade, and it's common knowledge and common sense that Las noches's visuals do not match up with its size, hell even without scaling or statements it doesn't look very big from a glance and definitely not 200 kilometers wide

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Out of curiosity, why can't we just use the pixel scaling to find the proportions of LN? I know we agreed on statements for the size due to the overall size being inconsistent from panel to panel but the ratio between the length and height of the wall are hardly so inconsistent as to warrant what is essentially a guess at the height.

There is using consistent statements vs inconsistent visuals and using both no contradictions vs taking a wild guess.

 

[USklaverei]

The best option is to use the explosion calculator like the Gremmy calculation

Definitely not, that would be a huge low ball. As I mentioned, it is best to find the volume of Las Noches and take around 80/90% and then apply vaporization.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

You mean it's common knowledge and sense that Seireitei's visuals don't match up with it's size. Las Noches has one visual where Bawabawa is shown beside it that makes it small, everything else doesn't have a frame of reference to say if it's small or big. Not even the pillars on the top since there are two sets of pillars as we're shown, smaller ones and bigger ones.

Also, I don't know what you're talking about with 200 kilometers wide. It's shaped like a rectangle, not a circle. A circle would make it 200+ kilometers wide.

 

[TataHakai]

Not even the pillars on the top since there are two sets of pillars as we're shown, smaller ones and bigger ones.

I don't recall there being 2 sets of pillars, only the ones Ulquiorra was standing on which we get a shot from later on from far away.

@USK There's no way to get the volume without baselessly assuming a height or pixel scaling it which is the entire reason why we even use statements instead of scaling its size (because kubo cannot draw to scale)

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Kubo can't draw separate objects/characters to scale. When has he not drawn people or objects to scale to themselves on such a basic shape. Its a rectangle, not a picasso.

Edit: Meant to say themselves and not each other.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Not even the pillars on the top since there are two sets of pillars as we're shown, smaller ones and bigger ones.

I don't recall there being 2 sets of pillars, only the ones Ulquiorra was standing on which we get a shot from later on from far away.
@USK There's no way to get the volume without baselessly assuming a height or pixel scaling it which is the entire reason why we even use statements instead of scaling its size (because kubo cannot draw to scale)

There are two, tall lanky pillars and short fat pillars.

So there isn't much pointing towards Las Noches having issues like Seireitei, I can only point out one scan that makes it seem small and everything else says it's big or has no size reference.

Also, part of this CRT was to point out how the current calc for Las Noches' size is flawed as it relies on faulty scaling from Yammy.

 

[Elizhaa]

In any case, I agree with the OP. I guess what is left is calculating the actual size of Las Noches.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

The only think that pixel scaling thing is about is only incredibly large structures, not literally the entire verse and everything in it.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

The pixel-scaling and statement subject was about Seireitei, Rukongai and Royal Palace/Yhwach's Royal Palace.

Those places had contradictory visuals that were inconsistent to each other with statements that were consistent or lore based.

Las Noches isn't like that. It's consistent with statements and lore except for one scan that depicted it small. Everything else has no size reference or is big.

 

[TataHakai]

Not even the pillars on the top since there are two sets of pillars as we're shown, smaller ones and bigger ones.

I don't recall there being 2 sets of pillars, only the ones Ulquiorra was standing on which we get a shot from later on from far away.
@USK There's no way to get the volume without baselessly assuming a height or pixel scaling it which is the entire reason why we even use statements instead of scaling its size (because kubo cannot draw to scale)

There are two, tall lanky pillars and short fat pillars.
So there isn't much pointing towards Las Noches having issues like Seireitei, I can only point out one scan that makes it seem small and everything else says it's big or has no size reference.

Also, part of this CRT was to point out how the current calc for Las Noches' size is flawed as it relies on faulty scaling from Yammy.

The tall ones aren't much bigger than the short ones, even if you scaled the short ones to the tall ones and then scaled Las noches from that it still wouldn't be anywhere near the size you get with statements


i can assure you Imade that there is far more than 1 scan that shows how much smaller Las noches is in comparison to the size we get with statements
Hell if you're going to use pixel scaling then someone could literally just scale the size of the whole thing from Ulquiorra to the pillars to the entirety of Las noches and it'd be like 20 kilometers wide

 

[Link_Eternal]

You mean, the scan of Ulquiorra standing on the pillar, and the scan of Bawabawa standing next to LN. Are there others?

 

[TataHakai]

There probably are if someone was to go back and look for them, even backwards scaling from LN would make no sense in terms of sizes

The point is that there is not a single visual of LN that is visually consistent with the statement which puts it at hundreds of kilometers wide, this is the problem with using Statements because sizes look inconsistent, you don't get to pick and choose what suits you

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Except we aren't trying to find its size as a whole, we want to know how tall a wall is. Are the height/length ratio of the walls wildly inconsistent? Next you'll say we can use the scan of Ulq vaping half the dome since its visuals and there was no statement.

 

[TataHakai]

The height is just as much as a problem as the entire size though

And the problem with Ulq vaping half the dome is exactly that, you can't say visuals aren't consistent so we're going to use statements then use those same inconsistent visuals to find a result

I mean if the visuals aren't inconsistent for LN then we should just do that, scale the whole thing off Ulquirorra as that's how we usually do it

 

[BlackeJan]

Wholeheartedly agree! nice job

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Except that the scans of half the dome getting vaped are definitely consistent. The problem with the visuals stems from the overall size of LN not fitting with other such scans, thus we use statements to determine its area.

Scaling off Ulq gives us 20km or so by your own word. The length is roughly 5 times greater than the height so a 4km high wall. This doesn't fit with the Bawabawa scan or else he is dozens of meters thick. The wall ratio however is still mostly consistent regardless of how large one can scale LN to be in a panel and thus should be perfectly usable.

 

[Link_Eternal]

>The point is that there is not a single visual of LN that is visually consistent with the statement which puts it at hundreds of kilometers wide, this is the problem with using Statements because sizes look inconsistent, you don't get to pick and choose what suits you

I find this to be misleading, because the truth is that while it is true that thers is no scan that explicitly proves that LN is the size stated, every sca that explicity displays a size smaller than that is countered by a scan that explicitly displays a size larger than what was shown in the previous scans. Not only that, the scans that debunk the smaller size also do not contradict the statements.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Tata thinks they are the same sets of pillars which is incorrect.

The pillars Ulquiorra stands on have a width comparable to his wings and are about 10 stories tall. It's practically 5 times taller than it is wide. These are the short fat pillars.

The pillars seen in the aerial views are always 20-30 times taller than they are wide. These are the tall lanky pillars.

So yeah, Bawabawa is the only contradictory view. There is no issue pixel-scaling Las Noches.

 

[TataHakai]

There is literally no other pillars that Ulquiorra could've stood on

Unless you can point me to the ones he stood on it's literally just a case of Kubo not drawing 100% perfectly.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

He stood on the short pillars that are like 30 meters tall and 6 meters wide.

The pillars that are visible are tall and lanky in every aerial shot while having a height that is 20-30 times it's width and comparable to Las Noches' walls height.

These are different sets of pillars.

 

[Xulrev]

A complete headcanon response to you Tata, but:

The shorter pillars could simply be behind the taller pillars we see in the post-Cero Oscuras shot when the dome is vaporized. It's not far-reaching to presume at all.

 

[TataHakai]

The short pillars that are invisible in every single shot from outside of Las noches? Because there are no pillars besides the one that Ulquiorra stood on and the ones nearby to that

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Well... the short pillars would be invisible given how small they are in comparison to Las Noches.

Las Noches' size would be comparable to the country Switzerland. You wouldn't be able to pinpoint a 30 meter building from such an aerial view of Switzerland.

Yes, these are different pillars. The pillars in the aerial views are always tall and lanky, the pillars Ichigo and Ulquiorra fight on and throw each other into are always short and fat.

 

[TataHakai]

Well... the short pillars would be invisible given how small they are in comparison to Las Noches.

My dude, you are reaching

There are only 5 pillars that are ever shown atop Las noches, and they are right next to Ulquiorra, Ichigo and co.

These are the same pillars because Ulquiorra literally stands on one, Ichigo goes right underneath it, Ulquirra drops down and they commence their entire fight right next to it

Anytime an attack goes off it happens right next to those pillars which are the only ones ever shown, you're telling me there are 10-15 kilometer tall Pillars atop las noches that we never ever see in the nearly 100 chapters that we're there? in the 10 chapters of the entire ulquiorra fight? Yeah no

For your argument to work the smaller pillars would have to be CLOSER to ichigo and ulquiorra than the magical 15 kilometer pillars that you're suggesting exist, however if that were the case then they would've been destroyed in chapter 346 when Ulq used cero oscuras.......except we literally see those same pillars in 347 and 348 so that can't be the case

There is no magical pillar atop las noches that becomes invisible even from a birds eye view, Las noches is not consistent with visual sizes and using it is asinine, there's not much else to be said.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

5 Short Fat Pillars


5 Short Fat Pillars of Different Heights


5 Short Fat Pillars

Consistently shown are 5 pillars, these pillars are always shown to be pretty fat in comparison to their height and are only ever visible in the up close shots.

These pillars are always short and always fat.

They're incredibly small and comparable to multi-story buildings with widths that are probably half that height.

They're not that tall.

They're pretty wide for their height.

They're not that big in general.

What If I Pixel-Scale Their Heights?
Pixel-scaling the 5 short fat pillars gives me that their heights are not even twice the length of their widths.

They're consistently short and fat to such a degree.

What Happens to These Pillars?


Ulquiorra Destroys the First Short Fat Pillar


Ulquiorra Partially Destroys a Second Short Fat Pillar


Ulquiorra Destroys the Top of a Third Short Fat Pillar


Ulquiorra Destroys More of the Top of the Third Short Fat Pillar


Ulquiorra Destroys a Fourth and Fifth Short Fat Pillar


(Zangetsu is Red and Ulquiorra is Green) Zangetsu and Ulquiorra Entirely Destroy 2 of the Partially Destroyed Short Fat Pillars


It just so happens they're destroyed in the fight between Ichigo/Zangetsu and Ulquiorra.


Ulquiorra destroys one of the short fat pillars by smashing Ichigo into it. As we can see, at least half of that pillar was gone. We can also tell that this is a short fat pillar because we can literally see Ulquiorra flying outside the building, thus it's one of the short fat pillars since we can compare his height to it's size.


Ulquiorra partially destroys a second short fat pillar by smashing Ichigo up the side of one. As we can see, at least a good portion of the side of the pillar is gone now. We can also tell that this is a short fat pillar because we can literally see Ulquiorra flying outside the short fat pillar, thus it's one of the short fat pillars since we can compare his height to it's size.


Ulquiorra partially destroys a third short fat pillar by smashing Ichigo up the top of one. As we can see, at least a good portion of the top of the pillar is gone now. We can also tell that this is a short fat pillar because we can literally see Ulquiorra and his wings outside on the top of the previous short fat pillar he threw Ichigo up the side of, thus it's one of the short fat pillars since we can compare his height to it's size and the size of the previous short fat pillar to the next one.


Ulquiorra further destroys more of that third short fat pillar by smashing Ichigo and the roof of it. As we can see, even more of the pillar is gone now. Ulquiorra was doing a pretty good shop destroying almost all of these pillars to the ground.


Ulquiorra then destroys a fourth and fifth short fat pillar by smashing Ichigo into two of them at once. As we can see, at least a good portion of those pillars are gone now as Ulquiorra threw Ichigo into the middle of them and the top portion are visibly falling down. We can also tell that these are short fat pillars because we can literally see Ulquiorra and his wings flying right to the side of the pillars, thus it's one of the short fat pillars since we can compare his height to it's size.


It doesn't even end there as Ulquiorra and Zangetsu go and entirely destroy two of the partially destroyed short fat pillars completely. We can tell these are of the 5 short fat pillars since in the red circle we can clearly make out Zangetsu and in the green circle we can clearly make out Ulquiorra. Thus these pillars are of the short fat pillars.


So it's obvious that 2 of the 5 of these short fat pillars were entirely destroyed. 1 was partially destroyed as Ulquiorra smashed Ichigo up the side of it. The remaining 2 were just mostly destroyed.


These Short Fat Pillars Are of Different Heights


Destroyed Pillar is Shorter Than Pillars Behind


Ulquiorra Throws Ichigo into a Taller Short Fat Pillar


Pillar on the Left is Taller than Pillar on the Right


Yep, this is true, the short fat pillars are of different heights.


As we can see, the short fat pillars vary in heights with some being clearly taller or shorter than others.


In some views we literally see Ulquiorra throw Ichigo into pillars that are blatantly shorter than the pillar standing right beside it.


So these short fat pillars are not all the same height, but they're all short and fat.


6 Tall Skinny Pillars


6 Tall Skinny Pillars


6 Tall Skinny Pillars


6 Tall Skinny Pillars

Consistently shown are 6 pillars, these pillars are always shown to be pretty skinny in comparison to their height and are clearly shown in aerial shots.

These pillars are always tall and always skinny.

They're incredibly tall with widths that are probably a tenth their height.

They're very tall.

They're pretty wide for their height.

This is the complete opposite of the short fat pillars and there are 6 of these.


Tata thinks these are the same as the 5 short fat pillars which is blatantly wrong as their are 6 and they're tall and skinny.


What If I Pixel Scale Their Heights?
Each time I pixel scaled their heights I got an average of their heights being a little over 10 times the length of their widths.


Tata thinks these are the same as the 5 short fat pillars which is blatantly wrong as they are over 10 times taller than they are wide unlike the short fat pillars.


What Happened to these Pillars?


Skinny Pillars Intact


Red Box: Zangetsu and Ulquiorra's Cero Clash Green Box: Ulquiorra's First Cero Oscuras Blue Box: Tall Skinny Pillars Mostly Intact and One Perfectly Fine

Honestly we don't see what happens to them.


Before Ichigo and Ulquiorra start throwing nukes out, we see the tall skinny pillars are fine.


Until they do start throwing out nukes everywhere then we see the tall skinny pillars are damage.


However, consistently shown through the aerials of their fight, we see that the tall skinny pillars have a consistent damage done to them.


4 are visibly shown to be partially destroyed with one being perfectly fine.


Tata thinks these are the same as the 5 short fat pillars which is blatantly wrong as the short fat pillars had 2 entirely destroyed, 2 mostly destroyed and 1 partially destroyed.


These Tall Skinny Pillars are of Similar Heights


6 Tall Skinny Pillars of Similar Heights


Skinny Pillars of Similar Heights


6 Tall Skinny Pillars of Similar Heights


6 Tall Skinny Pillars of Similar Heights

As seen in the aerials shots and all the scans, the tall skinny pillars are never shown to be of different heights.


They are of similar heights.


Tata thinks these are the same as the 5 short fat pillars which is blatantly wrong as the short fat pillars had different heights.


Conclusion
Las Noches is not like Seireitei nor the Royal Palace which have inconsistent drawings and contradict lore that require us to only use statements to determine feats regarding them and their aerials.


Las Noches is actually consistent in aerials and lore that allow us to use statements to find it's size and use pixel scaling for feats regarding it's size.


There is no problem moving forward calcing Cero Oscuras and Lanza from Las Noches' size.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Isn't using a statement to get a size, then using pixel scaling using images that aren't drawn to scale inaccurate? Since the size you get from pixel scaling and using statements are extremely far apart, you should just use one or the other, not a combined version of both since its not drawn to the scale the statement put it at. But thats just my opinion, I'm no good with math so i could be wrong.

 

[Spinoirr]

I agree with the op

 

[Aernasilver]

Isn't using a statement to get a size, then using pixel scaling using images that aren't drawn to scale inaccurate? Since the size you get from pixel scaling and using statements are extremely far apart, you should just use one or the other, not a combined version of both since its not drawn to the scale the statement put it at. But thats just my opinion, I'm no good with math so i could be wrong.

What you're saying is what Imade is trying to argue against. The amount of pics he just posted is to show that the pillars are consistently drawn the same. Unlike Seireitei which we went for statements only since the drawing was inconsistent. So using the statements to pixel scale is fine if the drawings are consistently the same.

 

[OrangeberrySama]

Seems kinda ridiculous to say just because the statements are being used, we can't use them to pixel scale the proportions of Las Noches itself. Regardless of how inconsistent its size may or may not be relative to other structures and people, that says nothing on the literal shape and ratio of the castles proportions itself.

Same for Gremmy's meteor tbh but I'll leave that for another thread.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Seems fine to use to me.

 

[MetalGearRaiden]

i said it before,and will say it again : using statements to pixelscale is not that far from using character's height to pixelscale

when someone uses character's height to pixelscale,they don't care about the fact,that said character may be drawn inconsistently between the panels, they just apply his stated height

Imade is assuming the same thing : using the stated size of LN to pixelscale

author went out of his way to give the reader some statements about the size of said locations within his story, when he never does the same thing for the height of his characters (at least not within the story itself ), thats because the height of characters is irrelevant for Kubo,whereas the size of location is not

my 2 cents in this argument

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Tfw IMade makes such a long post that you agree with but wonder if you can be bothered to scroll up and kudos.

 

[TataHakai]

I'll need to re evaluate the relevant chapters to see if Imade is correct

Until then please don't make any changes

Also @Metalgear

The problem with using both pixel scaling and statements is that they contradict each other massively, it's not a few centimeters of difference like with a character

But more like hundreds of thousands of meters of difference, the reason we use statements in the first place is because using pixel scaling makes no sense as its inconsistent within bleach, to then turn around and act like it's only inconsistent when it doesn't suit us and consistent when it does is to blatantly be two faced about the situation

 

[KazuiK]

I prefer to use the statements, as Tata pointed out above, the images are not so consistent.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I prefer to use the statements, as Tata pointed out above, the images are not so consistent.

Did you read the whole thread?

The main point of my OP was to show that we should use statements for Las Noches' size and in the comments I've shown why we should be able to pixel-scale of Las Noches to find calcs for Oscuras and Lanza since Las Noches is consistent in visual sizes.