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Theglassman12

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
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Low 1-C

Alright so I’ll get the big one out of the way, after looking through some of the god tier feats, they should be just flat out Low 1-C instead of 2-A, likely Low 1-C. Reason being is that the Boundary not only holds those infinite realities that exists in the BB verse, but also transcends them. Even in Xblaze they further elaborate on how it’s an alternate dimension/plane of reality that’s not part of the world. And in terms of the feats we got, there’s Takamagahara being able to observe the information in the Boundary, Raquel in Bloodedge Experience being able to do the exact same thing on her own, Embryo being able to affect the Boundary during the Doomsday process to the point that it went from being a Dark Dimension to literally a white void of nothingness, Amaterasu was capable of replicating the same feat back when the Prime Field War occurred especially when it was in the Boundary, and Ragna basically replicated everything across the Boundary when he gained the True Azure. Heck even other characters and weapons can affect the boundary, like when Kushinada’s Lynchpin can be able to nullify the boundary’s flow of seithr, and Celica being stated to have powers that can suppress the Boundary, and even the Embryo in Xblaze’s mere existence controls the Boundary’s flow of seithr to make it not flood the world, and the destruction of the Embryo will free the Boundary. So all in all, they should be upgraded to just Low 1-C.

Resistance Negation

So yeah didn’t know how I missed this, so anyways Izanami was able to have interventions so great that Valkenhayn, who’s naturally immune to Phenomena Interventions, can be affected. This also applies to the Embryo, who was able to do the exact same thing to Valkenhayn and everyone who’s resistant thanks to Celica’s Blessings, on top of the fact that Amaterasu can be able to manipulate the Embryos with its Phenomena Intervention despite existing outside of logic, so them and Nine being able to use her Phenomena Interventions to affect those that should be resistant to the effects. Requiem should also scale due to the fact that it’s supposed to be on par with Amaterasu with its Phenomena Intervention due to its whole “replace Amaterasu” plot point.

This should also have everyone who’s immune to Izanami’s interventions in CP and CF resistance to Resistance Negation, which consists of like, a lot of characters.

Higher Dimensional Manipulation

So this is from scaling off the Embryo itself, thanks to it being a higher dimensional existence via being one across the multiverse, some characters are able to manipulate the Embryo to their liking. This would scale to Nine since she’s able to do that easily throughout CF, Relius would scale to her since he’s at least comparable to Nine, Noel would scale as well since her azure powers can manipulate the embryo too, CP Nu and Susanoo scales off of Noel, Amaterasu would scale easily since she can manipulate countless embryos with her own existence, Izanami also scales too due to pulling the embryo’s strings for Doomsday, System XX would scale thanks to having the Azure power too, and possibly Ragna with the true blazblue would scale since he’s a being beyond Amaterasu and should manipulate whatever she can manipulate.

Another Phenomena Intervention power

Unlike the last upgrade to the ability, this is only gonna be two power.

Statistics Amplification: Relius talks about the Nox Nyctores’ ability to self observe themselves and how the stronger the observation is on the weapon, the stronger the weapon becomes, or it being more effective.

Absorption: Scales from the Embryo, who can absorb things, and Embryo’s are stated multiple times to have Phenomena Intervention as their main source of power.

Speed upgrade

So this was something Shiro brought up to me, originally I was a bit skeptical on this scaling but after seeing his points I kinda agree with them scaling, so long story short, The Boundary is stated to be a realm that transcends time and space.

When education to have self-observation was enough, the crimson eyed master sent her to an underground room within a certain castle. To release that observation. Crimson eyed master connected Raquel's spirit to Boundary. Boundary is a place transcending time and space. This is the place where every single moment, every single event, every single possibilities drifts. It was to let Raquel observe everything.

Which is pretty consistent with the lore as when Relius hopped through the Boundary he had a statement of transcending time and space. As for who exactly performed said feat, we have the following:

Ragna: traversed the boundary every single timeline reset as the black beast and traversed it in Chronophantasma when he went back in time, and traversed it twice in Central Fiction, one was to get into Nine's workshop which was in the boundary and another was to get to the gates of the azure.
Jin: Same feats as Ragna in CF plus traversing the boundary to find Hihirokane.

Noel: She's a Murakumo Unit, which are all made to traverse the boundary and she can do it herself so there's proof.

Izanami: Same as Noel, plus the fact that Izanami herself has onscreen proof of traversing through the boundary as shown in CPEX.

Lambda: Same as Noel

Nu: Same as Noel

Hazama: He traversed the boundary twice, in Continuum Shift in an alternate ending and in the end of Central Fiction

Relius: He traversed it when the black beast went rampant and he did it again in Central Fiction.

Jubei: He has a statement of being able to do it easily in his prime.

Nine: She literally made a workshop inside the boundary, so no shit she can do it.

Valkenhayn: He traversed it as well in the end of CF.

Terumi: He hops reality through the boundary all the time and it's his literal home.

Azrael: He escapes his prison in CP by traversing the boundary in CF.

Kokonoe: She traversed the boundary to get to Nine's workshop.

Celica: Same as Kokonoe.

Rachel: Same as Kokonoe plus meeting Ragna inside of the Boundary in the end of CF.

Amane: Same as Rachel with her latter feat.

Black Beast: It's a literal cauldron and time travels all the time in CT.

Naoto: He traversed the boundary to get to the mainline timeline.

Raquel: Same as Naoto

Es: Same as Naoto, plus the fact that Es was able to traverse through the Boundary to find the Master Unit with the Embryo’s power, and she guards the Azure gate, which is in the Boundary.

On top of some supporting evidence, like everyone in CF being able to fight Nine in her realm, which is stated to be in The Phantom Field. And the Phantom Field is stated numerous times to lack the concept of time. So I propose an Immeasurable speed upgrade for everyone of the characters in tier 5 given they’re able to react to at least one of these characters in a fight. Tier 6 I propose an at least FTL, possibly immeasurable speed for the cast as they’re more than able to react to Murakumo Units than they were in Tier 7, in which none of them could remotely keep up with Nu aside from Hakumen and Rachel in CT, albeit the feats for traversing the boundary are there as Hazama and Ragna was able to traverse it during Chronophantasma, and Ragna was able to move easily while inside Take Mikazuchi, who’s basically another cauldron due to being identical to the black beast.

All Nox Nyctores and Murakumo Units

Regeneration (High-Godly): Relius stated that Nox Nyctores are capable of observing themselves, this also scales to the Murakumo Units given what Kokonoe said about Fluid Seithr Theory being similar at a conceptual level, and in CP her and Litchi go more in depth on it as that’s how the NOL were able to make the Prime Field Devices.

There’s also a couple other things mostly for the Murakumo units. So they’re stated to being able to live on prior to having souls, and just like with Es, them gaining a soul merely gave them their own personality and self awareness, as without their souls they’re just mindless drones executing whatever target they’re ordered to take out. So I once again propose all the Murakumo units to have immunity to soul manipulation as them without a soul doesn’t really kill them permanently per say, just makes them have no personality or self conscious.

Secondly, they should have Instinctive reactions as Lambda-11 was able to instinctively remember how to fight despite losing her memories. So any other Murakumo unit should scale to her.

Lastly the Murakumo Units should all have inorganic physiology as they’re all made of seithr.

Tager

Inorganic Physiology (type 2) as he’s made entirely of metal as opposed to organic material.

Litchi

Possible Acausality (type 3): Given that she’s linked to the boundary and is aware of her alternate selves.

Legacy Weapons

Soul Manipulation, Healing Negation and Regeneration Negation (up to High-Godly): The Legacy weapons are stated more than once to have very similar traits to the Nox Nyctores, which should mean they have the same kinds of innate power.

Terumi

Remove the power nullification as it’s from Hazama due to him being an Azure Grimoire; which was where the power null came from, he instead gets power null as Susanoo since he absorbed Ookami when fusing with Hakumen.

Have immortality negation for type 1-6 and 8 in his base key as a mere clone of himself has the potential to kill himself, and then immortality negation for all types except for 10 thanks to Noel being fused with him.

Hazama

Low-High Regeneration: He was able to regenerate from getting kicked so hard by Meifang that he turned into droplets of blood.

Boundary resistances

Soul Manipulation: The boundary is stated numerous times to being able to affect souls So everyone that can withstand the boundary also can resist soul hax.

Nu-13

She should have Death Manipulation and power null due to the fact that she’s stated to be an anti-observer weapon, and Anti-Observer weapons are stated to have the Immortal Breaker powers, so everyone who fought Nu would also scale to being resistant to the Immortal Breaker’s death hax.

Take-Mikazuchi

All the powers of the Nox Nyctores: It’s stated that Take Mikazuchi at full power would be achieved if he has all the cores of the Nox Nyctores, so it should have all of their powers.

Es

Possible Abstract Existence: Due to the fact that she’s stated to become one with the possibility of the Azure, though I wanna know if this can be registered as Type 1.

Immunity to Soul Manipulation: She was born without a soul and was capable of living on and doing her own thing before she developed one. This should also scale to Nobody as she’s literally the same person as Es.

Resistance to Black Beast passives: she was unfazed by Freaks channeling the Black Beast’s power through Touya’s Grimoire he stole.

All of the Black Beast’s power: She also has Touya’s Grimoire.

Clavis Alucard

Resistance to Boundary stuff: His coffin is shown to be in the deepest reaches of the Boundary, and he was unfazed by the Boundary while being buried there.

Arakune

Phenomena Intervention: Arakune, or to be more specific, Roy is shown to being able to use Phenomena Intervention.

The Black Beast

Fate Manipulation: Kokonoe stated the Black beast is able to suck Fate itself.

Makoto

Adaptation: Relius stated that she’s able to adapt to her surroundings in the Embryo.

Platinum

Possible Regeneration (High-Godly): Platinum is stated to be a Reciprocal Observation system, which further digging explains she’s a type of prime field device, which means she might have the same self observation ability every Murakumo unit has.

Also Resistance Negation: Since she was able to give Hazama pain despite him being unable to feel pain.

Range

Yeah, so everyone here’s gonna be getting a massive boost in range. The following are:

Rachel Alucard and Valkenhayn (Low Complex Multiversal via teleportation): They’re both able to teleport throughout the Boundary

Terumi (Low Complex Multiversal via teleportation): He literally teleported straight to the Gates of the Azure, which are in the deepest reaches of the Boundary.

Everyone that has Multiversal+, likely Low Complex Multiversal range, should have just Low Complex Multiversal range since they can affect the Boundary.

Arakune (Low Complex Multiversal): his range at Low Multiversal was from BFR’ing to the boundary so it should grant a massive upgrade.

Tager (Cross Dimensional): He was able to BFR Azrael into a space between dimensions.

Kokonoe (Low Complex Multiversal): She was able to pull both Lambda and Celica’s souls from the boundary itself.

Relius (Low Complex Multiversal): He is capable of traversing across the Embryo and Boundary with ease, even having clones of himself reach that far so he should have a range boost.

Amane (Low Complex Multiversal): he was also able to teleport to the Gate really easily.

Black Beast and Ragna (Low Complex Multiversal via BFR): They’re able to send Noel to the Gates of the Azure when they consumed her.

Mai (Tens of Kilometers): Her Astral Finish lets her shoot her spear from when she’s literally at the clouds.

Carl (likely Cross Dimensional): his Astral Finish sends you to his own little pocket dimension

Burst

Currently, everyone has air manipulation thanks to bursting, though I don’t really recall it letting them manipulate air, as they’re just sending shockwaves to blow their foes away from them, so it should be changed to Shockwave Generation.

Ragna

Immortality Type 7: thanks to being a Dhampir from Rachel.

He should get Low 1-C via death for every tier except his true blazblue key since he’s the Central Fiction, Amaterasu would nuke everything if he truly dies.

Possibly some resistance to Holy Manipulation???: Mostly cause there’s a feat in his short story where he’s restraint by an anti demonic field and can break out of it, though I need a bit of help whether or not it’s Holy manipulation or something else since it’s basically anti-demon stuff.

You there, sir! Can you hear me? I said halt!

The masculine voice became an angered roar. A moment later, a trap was triggered, emitting a dull and persistent noise throughout the vicinity. This trap, designed for protection against demonic beasts, could instantly vaporize an ordinary man. The safeguard, however, was powerless against Ragna. With a casual wave of his right hand, the trap dispersed like a burst bubble. The voices of confused guards danced around him, followed by the piercing echo of an alarm.


Anyone who’s knowledgeable on magic

Self Perception Manipulation, or Enhanced Senses: Nine with magic was capable of manipulating her senses to be far sharper than before.

Thanks to magic, Nine's current perception was upped to about the double of a normal person's. That's right. Just about as high as a beastkin's.

Psychometry: Everyone with sorcery can detect others with it

First they needed to meet up with Hakumen, who’d gone on ahead. With that in mind, Trinity used sorcery to search for his location while on the move; encountered Hakumen with Celica and Nirvana in tow; and then headed all together for Trinity’s workshop… and that brought them to the present.

Stealth Mastery: Magic users are stated to being able to hide their tracks.

Limited Resistance to Disease Manipulation, Madness Manipulation, and Soul Manipulation: Mages are stated to being able to slow down their infection on the Union crystals much better than other people.

Extrasensory Perception: Mages are capable of sensing seithr.

Valkenhayn

Soul Manipulation and Healing Negation: Phase Shift states he’s able to use Sorcery, which is stronger than magic, so he should have the same powers that come from it.

Nine, seated on a stool shaped as a stout cylinder, lifts one to her mouth. The color and scent is similar to the green of the matcha tea that the Kaka Clan seems to favor, but it has a peculiar taste to it that makes it difficult to call it delicious. It's even more pronounced now that she's just exhausted herself erecting a barrier with what remains of her sorcery after the teleportation, even having borrowed Valkenhayn and Terumi's help to do so.

Nine

Absorption of magic in the atmosphere:

On this island inhabited exclusively by Mages, sorcery is in abundance on a daily basis, and due to that the air is filled with slight magical power. This is a place where the drifting, airborne magical power gathers easily. Perhaps because of their choice of road, their pursuers are far away. As soon as Nine entered the forest, she began to concentrate, gathering the magical power in the air to her and forcefully stealing a whole swath of it at once.

Trinity

Light Manipulation:

Relying on the light Trinity had made with magic, they advanced inside with Ragna as the lead.

Mai

Going to do a bigger rework on her profile mostly cause her stuff has shit mixed from remix heart and variable heart, one of them being the Azure Grimoire’s powers which she lacks at the end of Remix Heart so she should have a profile redone separating her powers from Remix Heart to Variable heart.

Logic

So this is another big thing I found, next to the Low 1-C upgrade, so let’s get it going. So I finally found the translation of the explanation for what Logic is, Shiro confirmed what Logic was a while ago but he didn’t give any text translated for us, but I found it.

"...If I remember correctly, we had gotten up to the Sealed Armament: Izayoi." Setting down the cup, she stands up. "We only touched on it a bit before getting derailed, though. Why is it regular weapons do not have any effect on the Black Beast, while magic (魔術) does?"

She poses the question as if leading a lecture, and begins laying out her reasoning like spreading out cards on the table before her.

"Fire, water, earth, air. The four basic elements (四大元素)." With the word "fire," a small flame ignites itself in the air; with "water," a droplet of water. A pebble and tiny whirlwind join them to float in midair.

"After that, light and dark. The two origins (二大起源)." A flicker of light and a wavering darkness join the four basic elements, hovering between them.

"Although one uses mana (神秘力 (マナ)), there's not a big difference between using magic and using science. Whether it's with a flame created by magic or a flame created with science, a piece of paper will burn regardless. In other words, the manipulation of energy by science and that by magic are one and the same. That forms the law--the Logic (理(ことわり))--of this world."

"...However, the very symbol of chemical weapons, the atomic bomb, couldn't even scratch the Black Beast."

Waving her hand across the table, she extinguishes the floating elements. They scatter into sparkles of light in her closed fist. Nine watches them disappear quietly and then continues steadily.

"The reason is because the Black Beast exists 'outside of Logic.' A being 'outside of Logic' cannot be harmed by things restrained by Logic. So then, why is it that magic can harm it? Because magic is a method to bring about things outside of Logic."

"It's not a coincidence that magic can harm the Black Beast, because magic as a technique was created for the purpose of fighting beings outside of Logic."

''Nine's voice returns to its prior strictness.''


So Logic, which governs the physical universe and its basic concept and sciences, is completely useless against Magic, which exists to attack beings that exist outside of it, and has also been further elaborated in Remix Heart to be a power that exists outside of logic. This qualifies as Acausality Type 5, and is consistent in the lore due to the fact that it’s stated Ars Magus weapons, along with the Nox Nyctores, were specifically made by Nine (the smartest sorcerer at the time), was the only thing capable of harming the Black Beast.

Xblaze

These profiles will get a bit more of a rework than normal, but long story short. I found confirmation that the mages in Xblaze use actual magic as opposed to just alchemy or Sorcery as Shiro claimed given they’re stated more than once to be from Ishana. Which means the soul hax, regen and healing negation and virtually every single thing that magic users normally have will scale to every magic user here, on top of characters withstanding magic blows resisting soul hax.

On top of other things like Unions being able to withstand seithr thanks to using it as a power source, Magic users are able to withstand Union infection better than others, and given how Union crystals are stated to be originated from the Wadatsumi Incident and is where Touya’s Black Beast came to be, there could be a chance of it granting high godly regen negation for Union. There is this statement on Union drives being a type of magic, which likely grants all Unions the same soul hax BS magic has, and everyone who’s fought a Union or any of the mages scales to resisting the hax.

Now onto more specific characters:

Unions

Unions are capable of absorbing Seithr to use their drives. Which means they all have natural resistance to Seithr.

Elise

Sound Manipulation: She can make a barrier that can make anything super quiet no matter how loud an attack can be.

Touya

Remove Death Manipulation and Perception Manipulation: the former is just life absorption and the latter wasn’t him manipulating Mei’s senses.

Immunity to Soul Manipulation: scales from Sechs, who’s an artificial human like him, who’s also stated to have lived prior to gaining a soul.

Resistance to Power Nullification: He was able to break out of Mei’s charm, which was supposed to null his powers.

Weapon Creation: He was able to create a red sword out of thin air.

Everything the Black Beast has: Touya’s Grimoire basically everything is getting messed up, and the other where he has more control over his power.

Low 1-C via death: Every single time he dies, Hinata or Es warps everything to bring him back.

Resistance to Seithr: I have no idea how he doesn’t have this considering he was able to ooze out seithr with no repercussions and can absorb seithr with no consequences.

Likely type 7 Immortality: Touya’s revealed to be dead and some walking corpse Hinata made when the Wadatsumi incident occurred.

Immortality negation (all types except for 10): Since Touya’s grimoire is basically the Black Beast’s power, he should have the same immortality negations as Ragna and Hazama as they got the same ability from their Azures, and even further proven by Touya being able to kill Hinata.

Resistance to Union infection: Touya is also an Irregular type like Ripper and Sechs, who were able to be unfazed by the Union crystal infection.

Akio

Magnetism Manipulation: It’s literally what his drive name is and what he can do.

Power Modification: Hitting Kuon’s forcefield caused her tracking ability to go wack.

Ten Sages

Resistance to Power Mimicry: The Ten sages are capable of using all different forms of magic, from alchemy to sorcery, and Sorcery in particular is stated to being unable to be replicated by an ability called Vision. So this scales to all the Ten sages members in Xblaze.

Avenge

He shouldn’t have regen negation. He doesn’t use magic at all, and I assumed he has due to regen negation but I was wrong.

Resistance to Seithr: he was able to withstand Ripper’s finger blades, which are stated to have seithr based properties.

Kuon

Power Bestowal: Was able to enchant Touya with the ability to sense magic.

Es-N

Resistance to the Boundary: Es was able to withstand the boundary after falling into it, and Es-N are just superior versions of her, on top of being able to stand next to the boundary and be totally unfazed.

Inorganic Physiology: is made of inorganic parts.

Immunity to Soul Manipulation: scales to Es, who was able to live on without a soul prior to meeting Touya.

Resistance to Union crystals: Can take in the crystals as a power source.

Mei

Smoke Manipulation: She literally has a smoke bomb.

Homing Attack: Has a homing spell that can track its target.

Light Manipulation: She has a light spell.

Sechs

Remove his 2-A to Low 1-C via hax: It’s from him being able to nullify Hinata’s PI, which isn’t really something he can do to destroy on that level, it’s just with his hax being on that level.

Reality Warping and Spatial Manipulation and Time manipulation: Is stated to do just that.

Phenomena Intervention: Kusanagi lets him use Phenomena Intervention.

Likely type 7 Immortality: scales from Touya as both are artificial humans made after they died.

Immunity to Soul Manipulation: is stated to have lived prior to having a soul.

Nobody

Type 6 Immortality: She’s able to create a vessel to live in. This scales to Es and Hinata and likely every other Embryo ever.

Ripper

Telepathy: Was using that as Brain cat to talk to Kiri.

Type 6 Immortality: Was able to live on by using vessels.

All of Touya’s Grimoire powers: After draining all of Touya’s powers in virtually every timeloop, he’s able to use Touya’s power on his own. So everything from the Grimoire that Touya has, he should have as well.

Speed

Everyone that’s comparable to Mei in Code Embryo should have their speeds upgraded to Massively Hypersonic as she’s able to use ligntning magic and characters like Kuon, Acht and Sechs are all able to react to it pretty easily.

And in Lost Memories, everyone on that level should be upgraded to either Speed of Light or FTL, given that Freaks was able to literally dodge a laser beam from both Kuon and Elise. And everyone in the fight was able to keep up with Freaks pretty well.

Lastly, there’s a possible Immeasurable speed that could scale to the top tier characters for Xblaze. So for starters, we already have Touya being able to become the Black Beast in his out of control state, a being that can traverse the boundary on its own. Sech’s is able to keep up and even kill Black Beast Touya on his own with barely much trouble, and Freaks basically takes all of Touya’s power, making him able to become the black beast as well, lastly we also have Es, who’s able to traverse the boundary in the end of Code Embryo, so I propose for the 7-B/Low 7-B characters to have At least FTL, possibly Immeasurable since they’re able to keep up with at least one of these characters, who’s shown such speed feats.

Transduality

So Sechs wanted to cause Doomsday, which he stated will remove the concept of life and death and even transcend both life and death for all existences. So the characters that were unfazed by Doomsday to begin with should have Transduality for this alone.

Another one would be from a description on Phenomena Intervention, so if you’re in a state where you neither exist or not exist, PI is almost impossible. So this should scale to Celica and Noel, and Susanoo via Noel, and true Blazblue Ragna as they’re all in that state of existence, and even Naoto as he’s stated to have a similar existence to Noel and Celica.

Agree: TISSG7Redgrave, Milly Rocking Bandit, Dante Demon Killah, Tony di Bugalu, Mister6ame6, XSOULOFCINDERX, Sadistic Sleuth, Veloxt1r0kore, CrimsonStarFallen, Nobody234, Dragonmasterxyz, Maverick Zero X, ShrekAnakin, Shadowbokunohero, Schnee One, DarkDragonMedeus

Disagree: FirePhoenixEarl, Sagathelegend, Cervical Shifter (the latter two on Low 1-C and Immeasurable speed)

Neutral: Oblivion of the Endless, Ionliosite (only said they disagree with type 5 acausality)
 
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I disagree with everything

But for realz this is very well made and since I said this already when you showed I will say I agree
 
I disagree with Low 1C upgrades and speed upgrades except for maybe Ragna.
> manipulating information from the Boundary.
This is not an AP feat, plus the information of the Boundary isn't even Low 1C since it is all information about the multiverse and flows between the two realms.
>nullyfing the flow of seithr of the Boundary.
This isn't a Low 1C feat. Seithr is what makes up the entirety of the BlazBlue world at the fundamental level including the 3D Matter, making seithr just a 3d construct at best.
> turning a dark dimension into a white void
Lol at this, this could very well just be different design choice, there is no scan stating that the void in the Boundary was caused by Doomsday either.

Even if it was the entirety of the Boundary is composed by seithr making the inside of it 3D while the entire structure might be 5D with some mental gymnastics. This already debunks every feat scaled to seithr.

Immensurable Speed gets debunked automatically by the fact that 3D seithr is able to move inside the Boundary anyway. Ignoring that the current definition from the system is nonsensical and it would be wrong even if the inside was 5D but that is for wikia wide revisions that aren't allowed right now I guess.

Don't care about the rest so neutral for that.
 
I can't say much about most of this as I don't know much about the verse, but the explanation for Logic is definitely not Type 5 Acausality. Seems like fancy Invulnerability.
 
Lots of things to bring up here, let's start:

Reason being is that the Boundary not only holds those infinite realities that exists in the BB verse, but also transcends them. Even in Xblaze they further elaborate on how it’s an alternate dimension/plane of reality that’s not part of the world.
Okay, but honestly, plane of reality doesn't necessarily means that it's a place that transcends the entirety of the Multiverse. The Boundary is a place that's supposed to be outside of their world, not a place that is a qualitatively higher-dimensional structure. Even the scans heavily implies that it's a place outside of their universe, not something that completely transcends it. The best given description for the Boundary is just a parallel universe, not a Low 1-C structure.

Also for the feats, they are not affecting or manipulating the place itself, Takamagahara only observed the flow of Information, not The Boundary, the same goes for Kushinada's Lynchpin, is just specially nullfying Seithr.

The Resistance Negation seems fine by me, considering that the characters fight and resist Phenomena Intervention all over.
So this is from scaling off the Embryo itself, thanks to it being a higher dimensional existence via being one across the multiverse, some characters are able to manipulate the Embryo to their liking.
That's where things get awkward. The Embryo is described by Kokonoe as a mirror that is reflecting their own mainline world, so I really don't get it, how is it supposed to be a Higher Dimensional existence? The Doomsday caused all the possibilities to vanish as a side effect, so The Embryo can't truly be one across the multiverse, since said multiverse ceased to exist.

We can consider this as a feat tho, since there is a perpetual PI happening inside The Embryo, but nothing implies that classifies as a Higher-D Manip.

Now for the speed upgrade... that's just traveling ability, and also shows that The Boundary is just used to travel through time and used as a form of entering into other worlds.

So Logic, which governs the physical universe and its basic concept and sciences, is completely useless against Magic, which exists to attack beings that exist outside of it, and has also been further elaborated in Remix Heart to be a power that exists outside of logic. This qualifies as Acausality Type 5, and is consistent in the lore due to the fact that it’s stated Ars Magus weapons, along with the Nox Nyctores, were specifically made by Nine (the smartest sorcerer at the time), was the only thing capable of harming the Black Beast.
I just want to point out that the logic in BlazBlue is not the literal logical system that exists. It doesn't include concepts or laws, it only includes elements like fire, water, earth and wind + light and darkness. Unless this becomes some Suggs level of bullshit, being outside of logic is not literal.
 
Wow, this was a really good read, it might took you some time to do this XD

Everything looks okay, tho I want to stay neutral on the speed upgrade stuff for now, I'll wait for more arguments from both sides
 
Anyway since this list is huge imma just touch a couple of points and leave the rest for when I'm not drunk.

L1-C: Transcending time and space ain't enough proof for low 1-c especially without context. It can have many different meanings, but even then to quote what I said in the discord server "some quote about Transcending time and space someone dug out from their grandma's basement on its own ain't giving low 1-c". 2-a to low 1c is a difference of infinitely bigger. And that random quote that's vague af and can be easily disputed ain't enough to give that infinity rating.

Resistance negation: Any reason this isn't just her PI being stronger than what he has resisted?

Higher dimensional manipulation: "the ability to affect higher dimensional space or time such as 4D space". I didn't see anyone in there manipulating higher D space (since there is no 4d space in bb). As for "higher dimensional for existing in the entire multiverse".... how is this not omnipresence?

Absorption: This is no big deal tbh, but "main source of power" doesn't mean "only source of power", just sayin.

Infinite speed: Just no, 2 average quotes without context are too little for sth as huge as Infinite speed. "transcending time and space" can mean several different things

Acausality type 3: I am not sure if just saying "these are memories of my alternate self" is enough for that to be type 3 which would mean those other selves act in place of the original.

Boundary soul resistance: I am fine with this if it only applies to the characters who stayed a long time there as that is from what's stated it eventually will lead to an effect and there are chances (since they say this could happen), of it happening. If there's more context this doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

Takemikazuchi: Is there any sort of statement or implication that getting the cores would give Takemikazuchi all of their powers? Cus absorption doesn't by default give all the powers.

Abstract existence: Too vague of a quote.

Low 1-C teleport/range: No, the boundary doesn't have enough for Low 1-C, and it's just stated to be an infinite space.

Air Manip: This is actually fine, a lot of people have air manip via creating gusts of wind, as long as it's explained it's fine. Cus i don't think we have a page for shockwave generation.

Low 1-C via death: Any reason this isn't just referring to 1 universe instead of all infinite (cus i already said why the boundary isn't Low 1-C)

Resistance to Holy: That doesn't seem to have any holy elements in it, all it says is "can vaporize ppl", which seems like just AP

Valkeyhan soul manip: Being greater than magic doesn't mean it has all the same applications. It can easily be a matter of potency without further context.

Logic: Big fat no as other people said. Not being harmed by other things isn't being acausal. Neither is being outside of logic. It's just invulnerability to conventional weapons.

Resistance to Power Null: This seems more like the girl that did it couldn't handle his power. Power Null has a limit now and cannot be used NLF so, it's not like a girl being unable to null his awakened power is necessarily resistance.

Power modification: She says "that explosion" any reason this isn't just the shockwave having messed up her ability rather than him modifying her ability to the point of it having it's tracking function completely changed and or disabled?

Resistance to power Mimicry: Need more context, cus it might just be that the guys in the verse are incapable of replicating it rather than the ability having resistance to replication.

Transduality: I have several questions here.
1. How is Doomsday supposed to do that transduality stuff when it just outright yeeted the entire place?
2. That state of existence or nonexistence thing needs more context cus it can have several meanings.
3. Whatever the case that's not transduality. That's at best (if you can answer my 2 above questions) just immortality type 5, not transduality.
 
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@SagaTheLegend
Wanna explain why Ragna of all people can get the ok here but not everyone else that can replicate the same feat as Ragna's for speed? Saying you disagree for everyone else except for ragna because reasons doesn't mean much.

Said information comes from the boundary itself, and there's infinite amount of it.

Yes... the seithr that also made the timelines too. Something that's 4-D in nature. Apparently THAT'S 3-D now.

Why would it be a design choice? How about you bring the proof that it was just a design choice and not the fact that everything got nuked as shown when Jin's location near Kagura was a literal white void?

How does a substance that fills an entire dimension that's beyond the multiverse 3-D? Because it made everything? Including the TIMELINES that exists in the verse? How does that not back up the fact that the boundary is above the multiverse then? Also hi pot meet kettle, you claim it's mental gymnastics for the boundary to be 5-D yet you're the one making claims like seithr being 3-D with no elaboration on how it's remotely 3-D, as opposed to me where I actually have text and scans to back my point up.

Again, explain how it's 3-D, cause saying it made everything is not enough proof when everything includes literal timelines, which are 4-D in nature.

How would it just be invulnerability when it's stated that you need weapons and power that exist outside of the fundamental rules to affect these beings? It's not just a "lol I'm immune to damage" It's "I exist outside of your own rules so nothing you can do can affect me."

@Cervical-shifter The boundary has multiple statements of being an alternate plane of reality, it's NOT a parallel universe. The parallel universe statement is just an easy way to imagine how the boundary exists. Every other statements about the boundary mentions it as an alternate plane of reality/dimension that's outside the reach of the worlds, and the fact that we have a statement of it transcending everything, and we get an elaboration on what "everything meant", which is the multiverse.

Kushinada's lynchpin also has statements of cutting the ties between the cauldron and the boundary once it does stop the flow of seithr, so it's affecting the entire dimension itself.

The Embryo literally absorbed and became one with the multiverse. It did it to the point that when you try dimension hopping again they'd just end up back in the Embryo, which is stated to be everywhere and is one with the multiverse itself.

Why would it be a travel ability? There's nothing in the series that states it's a specific ability to travel across the boundary. Everyone that traversed the boundary literally did it by moving. Hell, Terumi and Jin have an onscreen showing of moving inside the boundary with no effort whatsoever. Nothing here remotely implies they're using a specific tool or ability to move in the boundary.

In Blazblue's case, they mean it in a literal term when characters say they "exist outside of logic" for their own version of Logic. Existing outside of Logic mean existing outside of the fundamental rules to where you need things not restrained by the fundamental rules to affect them in the first place. It's the main reason Ars Magus was invented.

@Firephoenixearl how about read my arguments for Low 1-C instead of attacking a point that I'm not remotely making in the first place for Low 1-C? Because for the nth time, that's not the reason why they're Low 1-C in the first place.

Because Valkenhayn flat out said it's not as powerful as another PI he resisted, but he wasn't immune to it, if you actually read the 3 scans there that I have for Resistance negation you'd find Valkenhayn saying just that.

How about explaining how there's no 4-D space in the first place when timelines exist? The characters literally manipulate the embryo itself, which is the multiverse itself. That's a higher dimensional existence. Also it does have omnipresence, it's on the profile.

Even though a scientist who's knowledgeable on the scenario refers to the embryos as phenomena intervention and many statements from many characters say their main power is PI.

Read my post. I said immeasurable, not infinite. And how is it vague when that's literally what traversing the boundary does? Taking you into any point in time wherever you want?

Again, read my post, I said she's Linked to her alternate selves, not that she got their memories.

It doesn't happen for a long period of time. Literally Makoto had her soul pulled into the boundary in like 2 minutes at the beginning of her story mode.

The cores are where the Nox Nyctores originates from in the first place. Take Mikazuchi is getting all of them inside of itself, why would that not give them their unique powers?

Explain how it's vague, she literally said she's one with the possibility of the Azure.

You say that but you didn't remotely debunk my actual arguments.

Vibration Manipulation is basically shockwave generation on steroids, so they'd get this subset power instead of air manipulation.

Because Ragna's linked to Amaterasu itself, who'd be the one to nuke everything to bring Ragna back, so it would scale to that level since it's god itself trying to stop ragna from dying to get him back.

Read the entire bold line. It also said "protection against demonic beasts". The fact Ragna's not fazed by it despite having a part of the black beast as his body should count for something.

Did you even read what you just said? It can be a matter of potency? Sorcery would have a higher potency than magic, meaning the soul hax would be even greater than what magic has since the potency is stronger.

it's not just being immune to damage, it's literally existing outside of the rules and being unfazed by things that aren't beyond the literal rules.

Even though she's a shrine maiden who can seal the black beast's power before, as stated in her story with her ancestor, but when she tries doing the same trick, it didn't work.

because the explosion died down afterwards, unless explosions can somehow last for like 30 seconds straight before dissipating, I fail to see how that didn't affect her magic at all.

Vision literally copies your moves from a glance with little to no effort. Even things that don't have much movement to begin with. Sorcery is barely any different but the characters who wield vision aren't able to copy it. Simple as that.

Did you bother reading the text there? He literally said with it he will make all existence transcendent of the concept of life and death. That sounds like blatant transduality.
What several meanings? You literally need to be in a state of existence where you neither exist nor not exist. You're independent of either of these two types of existence in the first place.
 
@Cervical-shifter The boundary has multiple statements of being an alternate plane of reality, it's NOT a parallel universe. The parallel universe statement is just an easy way to imagine how the boundary exists.
The Boundary being described as an alternate plane of reality doesn't means that it's automaticaly a higher dimensional structure.
"Not part of our reality" pretty much says that it's not part of their world, something that exists outside of their Multiverse. The scans in XBlaze doesn't says anything about higher dimensionality, or perceiving their world as an infinitesimal insignificance.

Every other statements about the boundary mentions it as an alternate plane of reality/dimension that's outside the reach of the worlds
Yet none of them proves anything that The Boundary is Higher Dimensional.

and the fact that we have a statement of it transcending everything, and we get an elaboration on what "everything meant", which is the multiverse.
A random quote from an Light Novel, which was never sated again in the full series. The actual meaning for the word "transcend" is surpass, and still doesn't makes it R^5. Nothing implies that The Boundary is a higher/bigger infinity, that's why I don't take things at face value.

Kushinada's lynchpin also has statements of cutting the ties between the cauldron and the boundary once it does stop the flow of seithr, so it's affecting the entire dimension itself.
No, it's not affecting the entire dimension, it's interrupting the flow of Seithr. "Cutting the ties between them" refers to the way how Seithr can come out of the Cauldron through the Boundary, and since that a 3-D object can interact with said "R^5", then it contradicts the idea of The Boundary being higher dimensional to begin with.

The Embryo literally absorbed and became one with the multiverse. It did it to the point that when you try dimension hopping again they'd just end up back in the Embryo, which is stated to be everywhere and is one with the multiverse itself.
I don't recall it absorbing and becoming one with the multiverse, as far as I'm aware, those possible worlds were erased by the chain reaction of the Doomsday, not absorbed.

Why would it be a travel ability? There's nothing in the series that states it's a specific ability to travel across the boundary. Everyone that traversed the boundary literally did it by moving.
Because they use The Boundary mostly for traveling through different worlds? Dafuq, Terumi crossed The Boundary several times, and yet he can't react to surprise attacks by characters that are not even classified for "Immeasurable" speed at all.

Hell, Terumi and Jin have an onscreen showing of moving inside the boundary with no effort whatsoever. Nothing here remotely implies they're using a specific tool or ability to move in the boundary.
Both are just right at the entrance of the Cauldron, they are not fighting inside the Boundary.

In Blazblue's case, they mean it in a literal term when characters say they "exist outside of logic" for their own version of Logic.
Wrong, their own version of logic is not the literal definition of it, I really don't see the point of us doing mental gymnastics over something that's just outright stated to be just elements, light and darkness. That's like, twisting the whole meaning of the logic in BlazBlue.

Existing outside of Logic mean existing outside of the fundamental rules to where you need things not restrained by the fundamental rules to affect them in the first place. It's the main reason Ars Magus was invented.
And those fundamental rules are what? Concepts? Laws? Physic, reality or some abstract force? No, just basic elements, that's why invulnerability is more plausible than "Acausality type 5".
 
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@Cervical-shifter the part of it being a plane of reality backs my point on how it's not a part of the multiverse. The main argument for the boundary being Low 1-C is that it transcends the multiverse. The reason why I keep mentioning the fact it's a dimension/plane of reality is because some people here like to claim it's just a parallel universe, but it's not.

Why is the line coming from a light novel automatically debunk it? Explain that. Because it explains what the hell the Boundary has and what it transcends. Is there anything in the series that you have that proves it's not beyond the multiverse? Cause I'd like to see some proof.

It disrupts the flow of seithr from the entire boundary. That's literally it's main purpose. And why is a 3-D object affecting a plane of reality an anti feat? Is Zeno affecting infinite Zamasu an anti-feat of Zamasu being one with space time because he gets killed by a 3-D being? The object doing the higher dimensional affecting doesn't contradict how the realm works.

Nope, it flat out absorbed everything. Rachel flat out said this here.

You're literally telling me they're using an ABILITY to travel across the boundary. Where is the ability? Because there's no statements for any of the abilities. You're really using Tager and Jubei for this? Tager? The same dude who's backed up by Kokonoe who is literal prep time incarnate AND can traverse the boundary? And nice, you're using Jubei, the same dude who can traverse the boundary on his own. That totally contradicts him being able to traverse the boundary, it's not like I have a laundry list of more than half the cast doing this EXACT SAME FEAT on the post.

Watch the video, I literally have it to where Terumi said they're in the boundary. Trinity herself flat out said they're in the boundary. That's not the entrance to a cauldron they're literally inside the boundary.

You do know I'm talking about the rules of the world right? THAT'S what I'm talking about when it comes to Existing outside of logic. Where's the mental gymnastics when they literally define Logic as the rules of the world?

Again, it's not just the elements, its the fundamental RULES of the world that they transcend, not just the elements. Nine flat out mentions how Logic is the laws of the world.
 
Still sounds like invulnerability. Seems similar to The Siberian. If causality or anything akin to it isn't even mentioned, you can't expect it to qualify for Type 5 Acausality. It needs to be more specific for that. This just is a solid justification for good invulnerability.
 
Low 1-C: So your argument is about it containing the possibilities?

There was no such thing in the scans. None of the scans say he has resisted sth more powerful.

>4D space >mentions timelines. Yeah...you kind of answered yourself. It's not 4D space, it's 3D space and 1D time. Saying that that's higher D manipulation is like saying Dio should have Higher D Manipulation for using time stop. They'd need to be able to change higher dimensional spatial structures for them to get this ability. Kinda weird to see you say "4D space" and use "timelines" as a justification though. As for having omnipresence, if it does have omnipresence why are you using that as justification for higher D then?

What's the point of what you said here? I say "main source" doesn't mean "only source". You tell me other characters have also said that their "main source" is PI. Did you just skip my entire point here?

The boundary takes you to any point in time whenever you want. Immesurable people wouldn't need that though. They can directly go to whatever point in time they want, so the fact that they use the boundary for this is an anti-feat if anything.

That "link" is just to say that their memories are being shared, not that they would act in place of the original if the original died.

Fair then, although a scan would be good here.

Because not any form of absorption means getting all their hax. It can easily mean that he absorbs them to gain more power, as a form of consumption or just growing stronger, not necessarily absorbing all their powers. You need some kind of proof or implication for this kind of stuff, otherwise any type of absorption would lead to power absorption as well, which well...ain't true.

And that isn't necessarily her being a possibility and lacking a physical form? Need some more context or proof on it, Abstract Existence type 1 is a really big addition so you'd need way more proof than a quote that can be several things up to flowery writing. I need to see people saying she's hard to interact with physically, that she lacks a physical form, that she has a true self that cannot be interacted with by other things. Cus that's what true type 1 is.

This is the same argument as the low 1-C one which is why i didn't try to debunk it separately, i'd just be repeating points.

I am fine with that, though air manip isn't bad either as long as it's explained. So go with whatever you want.

I mean...he could easily nuke only 1 universe to get him back no?

I mean you can easily use AP against demonic beats. I don't see why you'd assume holy. All it says is "it can vaporize people" and he was unfazed. There was nothing holy in there. And not anything that's made against demons is holy, raw AP can work just fine.

It would have a higher potency, but not the same applications. Just cus something is stronger doesn't mean it's as versatile.

Not really rules. All it does it makes them immune to the 4 elements + light and darkness. Logic is too vague to give anything on it's own which is why you result to feats or explanations. As for feats and explanations, being above the 4 elements doesn't make you acausal. I don't see how you even relate beyond the elements to causality. Also for acausality type 5, it's not a case of "not being able to harm him", it's a case of "you can't even interact with him".

Why is her being able to seal the blackbeast proof of resistance for the other guy? Im assuming the black beast is way more powerful, but the issue is her saying "your force of awakening blew it away". That's not resistance, resistance is she wouldn't be able to nullify him in the first place, whereas the guy just blew it away meaning it just wasn't powerful enough to hold his power.

I mean the explosion can be powerful enough to completely throw the tracking off. That is an average Baki feat, not power mod. Power Mod wouldn't be "it blew my enemy tracking to (can you post the quote right after this? the sentence isn't even finished)", it would be "my ability is incapable of tracking people anymore". Also i need more context on this enemy tracking thing cus it says "it blew my enemy tracking" and that's what explosions usually do by default. So a bit more context would be appreciated.

It might just be more complicated so these guy's ability to replicate things isn't good enough to replicate that. So when thinking of adding resistance the thought of "is it resistance or the opponent just being limited" should always come up in your head.

First of all, does what he say line up with what it does though? Wasn't it just gonna absorb/yeet everyone instead of just making everyone transcendent of life and death?
Several meanings as in simply flowery writing, just meaning a vegetative state, immortality type 5 or just plain up something that cannot be called dead or alive similar to how viruses work for example (putting everyone in a similar state). And there is also the issue of why are the people who resisted this the ones who get it? If anything the people who didn't resist this are more likely to get this ability than the ones who did. The ones who resisted it, weren't affected by anything it did. The people who didn't resist were the ones who were made without a concept of life and death.
 
Alright lemme see here

Low 1-C

Honestly seems fine. Sure, it's a alternative/parallel dimension but that doesn't really mean shit anyway since it's always been more massive anyway. Not even time and space exist there and it's outright said to transcend both to the point where you can travel through time by entering and leaving, so.

Resistance Negation

You sure that ain't just bypassing resistance? In any case, stonks.

Higher D Manipulation

I mean yeah, guy is literally the multiverse.

Immeasurable speed

Now this one i'm skeptical of. Are you sure that's not just Dimensional Travel and Time Travel? I mean sure it's entering a place transcendant of space-time, but entering those voids doesn't give you speed anymore.

Rest is fine, so i'll jump to the other big ones.

Logic

I... don't see the logic? (Pun intended)

I mean, yes, what Nine is saying is that the Logic dictates that the laws of physics govern the world, so paper burns when fire settles on it, and things are destroyed by nukes. There's no real indication here that Logic also consists of the laws of cause and effect. If anything this should keep being Invulnerability, since it's clear that no physical phenomena is gonna affect it.

Xblaze stuff is okay.
 
Honestly seems fine. Sure, it's a alternative/parallel dimension but that doesn't really mean shit anyway since it's always been more massive anyway
Being a parallel/alternate dimension isn't contradictory to being bigger, but it is contradicting the "transcends".

Not even time and space exist there and it's outright said to transcend both to the point where you can travel through time by entering and leaving, so.
Connecting points in time doesn't imply transcendence, if anything the fact that it "connects" the universes contradicts the "it contains every universe", which is the supporting proof of it. But yeah being connected to every point in time of a universe doesn't mean you're transcending it.

As for time and space not existing that can just mean a void, if that were implication of higher D dragon ball and Digimon tier 6's would've been higher D a long time ago. Also how can space not exist there? lol. Can i have a time about time not existing there though?
 
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@Cervical-shifter the part of it being a plane of reality backs my point on how it's not a part of the multiverse. The main argument for the boundary being Low 1-C is that it transcends the multiverse.
No, you just posted scans of XBlaze stating that the Boundary is something that it's not part of their reality and then a random line from Phase Shift stating on a flowerly language way of how The Boundary transcends everything, and yet again, you still didn't show anything stating that the Boundary is a qualitative Higher Dimensional structure.

The gap between 2-A and Low 1-C is insanely huge, fancy words like "transcending" or "beyond" are not enough for the requirements, that's SMT's Expanse issue all over again.

Why is the line coming from a light novel automatically debunk it? Explain that. Because it explains what the hell the Boundary has and what it transcends.
> Phase Shift: One single statement that The Boundary is a place that transcends everything.
>XBlaze: Get a shitton of statements showing that The Boundary is just a place that it's not part of their reality, and should be outside of the multiverse.

Now tell me, do we have any scan stating that The Boudary perceives the entirety of BlazBlue verse as something fictional or as an infinitesimal insignificance? Come on.

Is there anything in the series that you have that proves it's not beyond the multiverse? Cause I'd like to see some proof.
You do realize that the burden of proof is on you, right?

It disrupts the flow of seithr from the entire boundary. That's literally it's main purpose. And why is a 3-D object affecting a plane of reality an anti feat? Is Zeno affecting infinite Zamasu an anti-feat of Zamasu being one with space time because he gets killed by a 3-D being? The object doing the higher dimensional affecting doesn't contradict how the realm works.
Affecting Seithr =/= affecting the place itself. Also, you are comparing two different situations, Zeno erased Zamasu because he had the power to, while Kushinada's Lynchpin is just affecting the magic element's flow, it's not a big deal. Reminding you, the relation between R^3 to R^4 is already absurdly big, imagine R^3 to R^5.

Nope, it flat out absorbed everything. Rachel flat out said this here.
It absorbed the outside world, aka the mainline world, not the entire multiverse.

You're literally telling me they're using an ABILITY to travel across the boundary. Where is the ability? Because there's no statements for any of the abilities.
I just assumed it was "traveling ability", also what kind of reasoning is that? Lots of characters in fiction has shown abilities that were not even stated in series. Yet again, it still doesn't make the BB characters Immeasurable in speed, when in the entire VN, they are moving on a linear time.

You're really using Tager and Jubei for this? Tager? The same dude who's backed up by Kokonoe who is literal prep time incarnate AND can traverse the boundary? And nice, you're using Jubei, the same dude who can traverse the boundary on his own. That totally contradicts him being able to traverse the boundary, it's not like I have a laundry list of more than half the cast doing this EXACT SAME FEAT on the post.
Oh yeah, nice, and they are cleary moving beyond linear time huh?

Watch the video, I literally have it to where Terumi said they're in the boundary. Trinity herself flat out said they're in the boundary. That's not the entrance to a cauldron they're literally inside the boundary.
Yet the fight is still taking place at the entrance of a Cauldron. It's not like entering inside the Boundary would make you Immeasurable in speed anyway.

You do know I'm talking about the rules of the world right? THAT'S what I'm talking about when it comes to Existing outside of logic. Where's the mental gymnastics when they literally define Logic as the rules of the world?
Again, it's not just the elements, its the fundamental RULES of the world that they transcend, not just the elements. Nine flat out mentions how Logic is the laws of the world.
And those rules are what? Literal logical system? Bruh. Those fundamental rules, reason, logic, are all just composed of elements, nothing that Nine says implies that those are literal concepts or laws of the universe that governs the entirety of it. It doesn't have any kind of cause or effect or some causality system. Actually let's just see what Acausality type 5 is:

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.

>Transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system.

We can clearly see now that the logic in BlazBlue literally has nothing to do with any kind of cause and effect. And given how Nine explained it, I'm learning towards it being Invulnerability.
 
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@SagaTheLegend
Wanna explain why Ragna of all people can get the ok here but not everyone else that can replicate the same feat as Ragna's for speed? Saying you disagree for everyone else except for ragna because reasons doesn't mean much.

Said information comes from the boundary itself, and there's infinite amount of it.

Yes... the seithr that also made the timelines too. Something that's 4-D in nature. Apparently THAT'S 3-D now.

Why would it be a design choice? How about you bring the proof that it was just a design choice and not the fact that everything got nuked as shown when Jin's location near Kagura was a literal white void?

How does a substance that fills an entire dimension that's beyond the multiverse 3-D? Because it made everything? Including the TIMELINES that exists in the verse? How does that not back up the fact that the boundary is above the multiverse then? Also hi pot meet kettle, you claim it's mental gymnastics for the boundary to be 5-D yet you're the one making claims like seithr being 3-D with no elaboration on how it's remotely 3-D, as opposed to me where I actually have text and scans to back my point up.

Again, explain how it's 3-D, cause saying it made everything is not enough proof when everything includes literal timelines, which are 4-D in nature.

How would it just be invulnerability when it's stated that you need weapons and power that exist outside of the fundamental rules to affect these beings? It's not just a "lol I'm immune to damage" It's "I exist outside of your own rules so nothing you can do can affect me."
It was to Azure Ragna in particular which doesn't scale to other characters and wasn't about the speed but the Low 1C statement which I changed my mind, Ragna's feat is fake. He never affected the Boundary. The scan says he affected the "world", not The Boundary. When we see the Boundary it is completely identical to how it was during the last act of CF, there's no proof he affected it at all. I thought it could be legit because it sounded he affected the entire space of the Boundary and not just the flow of seithr, but it isn't
Coming from the Boundary doesn't make it 5D, Seithr is 3D and comes from the Boundary, burden of proof is on you to prove it is 5D. Besides that information flows between the realms even without TK's intervention (since it only manages, not causes it), proving it isn't 5D since it is flowing from a 3D Realm to the Boundary and Vice Versa.
Timelines are not made of seithr lol that's headcanon, seithr is a material component and something material obviously can't make up something as vaguely defined as an space-time continuum, besides Arakune stated only material things as examples of huis 'everything statement", I shouldn't even be having to explain this to you. The fact that seithr is the fundamental component of 3D matter already disproves it being 5D, that's self explanatory. Component of 3d Matter = 3D object, that should be basic for you to grasp.
And? The Boundary wasn't a literal white void, are you blind or something? We can clearly see a blue sky background when Ragna and the others are inside the Boundary alongside a solid ground.


tc7o4WP.png


xUfeuQi.png

Sometimes it is represented as a white void mostly for close ups on the characters, that still doesn't prove that the Boundary was affected by Doomsday at Either get an actual statement that it was affected or stop drawiing meaningless comparisons based on 'void color'. Besides your scan isn't even from the Boundary, it is from the 'outside world' that was destroyed by the Embryo (likely just anspace connecting to tbe Boundary at this point) which Ragna clearly states clearly enought for a child to understand that it isn't the Boundary.

F79QQ8A.png


Lol that's essentially invulnerability, not acausality Type 5. Do you even know the definition of Acausality Type 5? It is to exist outside of the normal boundaries of causality, nothing in your scan states anything about causality, just physical components
"Although one uses mana (神秘力 (マナ)), there's not a big difference between using magic and using science. Whether it's with a flame created by magic or a flame created with science, a piece of paper will burn regardless. In other words, the manipulation of energy by science and that by magic are one and the same. That forms the law--the Logic (理(ことわり))--of this world."
This is your logic, nothing here states anything about causality. Characters have their causalily distorted and manipulated at BlazBlue all the time including the so called "outside of logic" characters. Before you say "muh Resistance Negation" or "It is a feat for characters", no one with a reasonable mind would apply Resistance Negation without a feat of it existing outside of causality in the first place if there isn't a feat of them being unbound by causality which there isn't.
 
Characters have their causalily distorted and manipulated at BlazBlue all the time including the so called "outside of logic" characters. Before you say "muh Resistance Negation"
Resistance Negation doesn't apply to Acausality, because it is not resistance, it is transcendence. Just sayin. And characters having their causality manipulated kind of disproves that they are outside of causality in the first place, considering they are being affected by changes to causality.
 
Resistance Negation doesn't apply to Acausality, because it is not resistance, it is transcendence. Just sayin. And characters having their causality manipulated kind of disproves that they are outside of causality in the first place, considering they are being affected by changes to causality.
I actually agree with this, would be pretty dumb to apply Resistace Negation but I thought it was an argument people could bring up for some reason (even thought it is illogical)
Well I will just leave an explicit scan of an Outside of Logic character being affected by blatant causality manip for everyone to see (same level of existence as Hakumen too btw)
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@Firephoenixearl Containing and transcending the possibilities.

Except for the fact that Valkenhayn was immune to the timeloops throughout the entirety of CT. The fact that Rachel and himself points out how he somehow didn't resist PI despite showing it in CT proves that he is resistant to something more powerful.

All of space-time is 4-D. Timelines in their very nature are 4-D. If you're gonna tell me that time itself is just 1-D then how do you even come to that conclusion with no actual proof?

I was talking about the Embryo's source of power being Phenomena Intervention, not every single character that uses PI.

Why would it be an anti feat for traversing a realm beyond space and time? Being able to move through space and time on your own with no equipment or abilities by default grants immeasurable speeds.

That's why I proposed a possibly in the first place, because they're all linked together.

Here it is.

Again, the cores of the nox nyctores all make take mikazuchi's full power, the cores are what makes them unique in the first place with their own abilities, otherwise they'd just be a weapon with potent soul hax.

So you agree that she should be type 2 then? Because I was more than willing to go for either type 2 or type 1.

If it was just 1 universe then Ragna wouldn't need to rewrite every single reality to make it to where Amaterasu and Tagamagahara could not do a single thing to them, which was literally what he did when he yeeted his entire existence.

You do know the bare bones thing magic has in this series is the soul hax right? the versatility of the magic has nothing to do with the soul hax, because any form of magic attacks can do the same thing. Sorcery is just magic but far stronger.

because the black beast is literally the dude's Grimoire in the first place. His grimoire is the black beast's power. The shrine maidens can seal them away with their powers as stated, and she has a seal meant to surpress his powers, yet when his powers came out it didn't do a single thing to his powers.

She blocked the explosion with a forcefield and afterwards her tracking magic all of a sudden isn't working.

The fact that Doomsday wouldn't affect them in the first place would basically mean they already transcend the concept of life and death in the first place. Even Izanami herself talks about how Doomsday will make it to where life and death no longer exists

@Cervical-shifter Except everyone I've talked to before when the Low 1-C upgrades occured that's knowledgeable on dimensional tiering said that transcending something would apply for a higher dimension. So Idk where you're getting that idea from.

Also I'm using the Xblaze statements of the plane of reality existing outside of the multiverse as proof that it's NOT A PARALLEL UNIVERSE. How many times do I need to repeat myself to you because I don't think you're reading everything I'm telling you. I'm using Bloodedge's statements on how the entire multiverse exists inside the boundary too, not just Phase Shift. Bloodedge just elaborates what phase shift meant by transcending everything.

Yes, and I have the proof, you're barely giving me any evidence that proves the opposite.

Seithr fills the entire damn Boundary in the first place, affecting the flow of seithr would affect EVERYTHING in the boundary. Yes I know it's absurdly big, but plenty of fictional works have lower dimensional objects/beings being able to affect higher dimensional stuff because of their power. Nothing about lower dimensional things contradicts the existence of higher dimensions.

It absorbed literally everything. Otherwise why did Raquel and Naoto's timeline get nuked if it wasn't absorbed and nuked to nonexistence, or why would Kokonoe flat out say that every single possibility is gone thanks to the embryo?

Except nothing in this entire scenario is it remotely implied it's an ability. The burden of proof is on you to show that they're actually using an ability to time travel through the boundary when every single time they do go through the boundary it's shown they're just doing it by their own movement.

You say that while ignoring my entire laundry list of feats that more than half the cast has shown so... How about you address all of my feats that I listed for once?

@WHYNAUT so Causality itself needs to be referenced? Wouldn't being beyond the rules of a system count too? If not then fine. I'll concede with invulnerability.

@SagaTheLegend he literally affected all the worlds while in the deepest reaches of the boundary. That's what happened. If he only affected a singular world then Naoto should not remotely have his reality back, which is not true as shown in the ending.

The seithr comes from the boundary itself, the realm that's 5-D in its very nature, it fills the entire realm in the first place. It's 5-D to begin with. Also no the information is in the boundary itself, literally every time anyone gets near a cauldron they're assaulted with infinite information from the BOUNDARY. If it was in the world and not the boundary, then everyone would've already have been flooded with informations and more arakunes would exist.

You say that it's headcanon but every single timeline is wiped from existence thanks to Doomsday, and we already have confirmation that worlds in Blazblue means timelines thanks to Xblaze. If everything is made of seithr, that would include the timelines. No matter how many times you say to me that seithr making everything only has it as 3-D, the fact that timelines by their very nature exists thanks to that, and doomsday nuking the timelines in the process proves that seithr is NOT 3-D, it's far higher than that.

The outside world that's connected to the Boundary because Ragna literally walks to the damn gates of the azure. I have the scans in my post. You haven't tackled every single point I made for Low 1-C because my Xblaze scans are still there regarding the Embryo affecting the boundary, and no one here has contested them.

Ah yes, the scan where Hakumen willingly allowed someone to affect him with causality because he was going to escape and needed their help. Only for him to literally nope the entire thing with his Power of Order.

@Omnitraxus100

The life link not being instant is BS because Terumi and Hazama literally came back after Relius killed them, and used it to sneak into Tagamagahara.

Noel being an observer is broken as hell because Hazama tried killing Rachel in a bunch of different ways and she kept coming back no matter what he did, so Idk how the person thinks it's not broken.

Hakumen did use time killer on noel, the entire context of that fight heavily implies Hakumen is trying to kill her, why would he have not used time killer on her in that moment if he thinks nothing he did works?

Terumi literally said he's using self observation to keep himself back, and the boundary was stated by jubei to make you "lose everything you were, and everything you ever could be". Terumi resists THAT level of EE, but Hakumen's was stronger than his. How is that not stronger than being erased from the past, present and future? Also Noel flat out has a statement from terumi to self observe, and the PFDs are made through self observation to begin with.

Terumi's fear existance has nothing to do with observation. That's just a terumi thing.

The description literally said you erase a certain reality to use another one instead.

So is almost every other god tier character who can use PI, why would that not scale to anyone else with PI when the only difference between PI is the scale on which you affect?

BFR is flat out removing someone and sending them to another location. Kokonoe sending hakumen somewhere else is flat out BFR.

She does it through her observation powers, something that allows her PI in the first place. So it scales to the power.

It's not character specific though, anyone who's an observer can observe things and allow them to exist, that's the bare bones requirement to getting PI.

the concept information argument is stupid because the text literally said all the information was absorbed however the concept of a world still exists.

Kokonoe was using tager's IDEA engine to use PI on Hakumen to get him to exist, and it's not a counter, it's literally vice versa the power of order is a counter to PI.

How is it character specific for Amane to observe something? There's nothing character specific about observing something when it's something any observer does.

Rachel and Kokonoe and Noel and Nine and Es and Hinata can make that same imagine dimension, Idk where the hell the person's getting the idea from that it's just a Noel thing.

Even though he could move after Nine gave him the beatdown, but couldn't move when she PI'd him away, so it's clear cut paralysis

like who? cause the cauldron literally stops time with its mere existence, and everyone in the mainline cast can be near the boundary without being messed by the time messing, besides PI already has time manipulation and a lot of people can resist PI in the first place so it's just more proof.

Is the person in the vs wiki or is he a lurker? Either or, I'd be more than willing to discuss some of this stuff with them when I'm done with this CRT. If they don't want to then ok.
 
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Honestly this is like Earl and the other really want to downplay Blazblue that much lel

After thinking twice, i honestly agreed with Kagamine points so yeah, count me as one the person who agreed with all of the points you bringed
 
@Theglassman12 That is actually incorrect, it doesn't contain the universes themselves, but can both sides leave this point for later? Just because it has much more to discuss than anything else here. Sounds fair?

Him being immune to those timeloops was not in the scans actually, but i guess it sounds fair for now.

You still don't get it. Yes space-time is 4D, not time itself. Time itself is 1D, space is 3D, together they make the universe, which is why it's a 4D construct because it is 3D space and 1D time. And this is not sth that needs proof this is basic dimensional knowledge. Height is 1D, width is 1D, length is 1D, time is 1D. All these 4 combined make the 4D space-time, not on their own.

You talked about Embryo's main source of power being PI, it can have other sources of power that give Absorption, has any other user of PI used absorption before? If no it would be best to say it's not related to it or maybe mention it as a "possibly".

Because they wouldn't need the boundary to travel to different points in time, they would have been able to do it themselves. The fact that they need this, is proof enough that they can't do it themselves.

Again, it's not even "possibly". Cus there is no proof of them replacing the original. Being aware of other versions or having your memories linked doesn't give acausality type 3. There is quite a bit more you need to prove before adding this, considering this is acausality type 3, which is actually a really strong thing to have.

You mean for the "the moment someone enters the boundary"? I guess that's fair.

Ok but just because he consumes them for power doesn't mean they give abilities. Cus if we say that then every bad guy ever who has "absorbed the soul of everyone" or stuff like that would have the abilities of everyone they absorbed, which isn't true. Cus they can be used as a form of nutrient, basically to feed the person power, rather than to give him abilities. You need more context or proof to give a dude a dozen abilities he was never stated to have.

No, it would qualify for the old type 3. Type 3: Embodies an abstraction, but the destruction of the former isn't needed in order to destroy or affect them. Which was removed exactly because of cases like this. Randomly "embodying" or "representing" something abstract then you get the ability, but since the ability did not give any special trait and wasn't in the truest word "abstract" it was removed, and now such things don't qualify for Abstract Existence at all. So yeah it would have been the old Type 3, but since that was removed it doesn't qualify at all.

Not knowledgeable enough to comment on this rn, so i'll leave it for a bit.

Something can be more powerful without having the same application. Again just scale the AP, not the applications, being "stronger" doesn't mean "it's capable of the same things". Stick to whatever application sorcery has shown.

Still iffy on this, considering if he were resistant he wouldn't have been nulled in the first place. Whereas this guy "blew away the seal", implying he was too strong for it, rather than the seal was ineffective (which is what resistance would be).

Still very likely that the tracking system just needed some time to recover from the shockwave, because it specifically says "it blew the tracking system". It did not change the tracking system.

Yes and then she says "only complete nothingness", meaning it's just a void not the world will become a bunch of trandual entities. Because why did the embryo just yeet the entire thing and not make every character ever just a transdual entity? And can you tell me what actually happened to the people that actually got affected by the embryo again?
 
he literally affected all the worlds while in the deepest reaches of the boundary. That's what happened. If he only affected a singular world then Naoto should not remotely have his reality back, which is not true as shown in the ending.

The seithr comes from the boundary itself, the realm that's 5-D in its very nature, it fills the entire realm in the first place. It's 5-D to begin with. Also no the information is in the boundary itself, literally every time anyone gets near a cauldron they're assaulted with infinite information from the BOUNDARY. If it was in the world and not the boundary, then everyone would've already have been flooded with informations and more arakunes would exist.

You say that it's headcanon but every single timeline is wiped from existence thanks to Doomsday, and we already have confirmation that worlds in Blazblue means timelines thanks to Xblaze. If everything is made of seithr, that would include the timelines. No matter how many times you say to me that seithr making everything only has it as 3-D, the fact that timelines by their very nature exists thanks to that, and doomsday nuking the timelines in the process proves that seithr is NOT 3-D, it's far higher than that.

The outside world that's connected to the Boundary because Ragna literally walks to the damn gates of the azure. I have the scans in my post. You haven't tackled every single point I made for Low 1-C because my Xblaze scans are still there regarding the Embryo affecting the boundary, and no one here has contested them.

Ah yes, the scan where Hakumen willingly allowed someone to affect him with causality because he was going to escape and needed their help. Only for him to literally nope the entire thing with his Power of Order.
the first has no bearing to my argument. Affecting the multiverse =/= affecting the Boundary. And just returning the possibilities and reconstructing the main world is enought to bring the multiverse back.

It can't be 5D if it is the fundamental component of 3d Matter, this is simple to grasp. Fundamental component of 3d matter = seithr is 3D thus the component of the entire Boundary would be 3D. The information is on the Boundary itself yes, but it flows between the two realms, it is clearly stated in the scan "flowing to and from the Boundary". 3D information enters and leaves the Boundary all the time. Also getting near the Cauldron doesn't assault anyone with infinite information, that only happens when you peer into the Boundary at the other side of the Cauldron without protection. Fodders get near the Cauldron all the time.

There is no proof every mention of world means timelines. Just because it is used once, doesn't mean it is used the same every single time. Plus it is stated "world" not "worlds"

Outside of World connected to the Boundary doesn't mean it is the Boundary. I already showed how the two places are different. Your XBlaze scan is as worthless as your other scans, manipulating the flow of 3d Seithr is not a 5D feat no matter how much headcanon you use to try to justify it.

Hakumen letting his causality be manipulated or not doesn't matter. The fact that it can be manipulated at all by a being of the same level of existence already counts as an anti feat. But even ignoring that there remains still the countless times where he was affected by the Master Unit's Phenomena Intervention. Not sure why this would be neede thought, nothing in your scan states anything about causality.
 
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