Blazblue CRT

[Cervical-shifter]

@Cervical-shifter Except everyone I've talked to before when the Low 1-C upgrades occured that's knowledgeable on dimensional tiering said that transcending something would apply for a higher dimension. So Idk where you're getting that idea from.

Considering the way how a Low 1-C structure needs to be in a state that it's perceiving something as it were fictional or a infinitesimal insignificance, it would be nescessary to have a higher/bigger infinity. That's how a qualitative Higher-D structure should normaly work, and the Boundary never had any statement of higher infinity.

Transcending is not qualitatively enough, actually, the real definition of it is just be beyond or surpass, not a bigger/higher infinity.

Requirement for Low 1-C: Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.

So, does the Boundary have any quotes or showings of it being in a infinitly greater state than the entire Multiverse of BlazBlue? No.

Also I'm using the Xblaze statements of the plane of reality existing outside of the multiverse as proof that it's NOT A PARALLEL UNIVERSE. How many times do I need to repeat myself to you because I don't think you're reading everything I'm telling you.

Parallel or not, existing outside of the multiverse is not the same as being one infinity higher than the multiverse. The only things that the XBlaze scans are stating is that The Boundary is just not part of their reality, not a Higher-Dimensional place.

Yes, and I have the proof, you're barely giving me any evidence that proves the opposite.

Wrong, it's not proof, it's just context taken at face value, and a bunch of scans that are just stating "not part of our reality/world", which somehow, you think it automaticaly means that makes it Higher-D.

Seithr fills the entire damn Boundary in the first place, affecting the flow of seithr would affect EVERYTHING in the boundary.

A physical/material substance that it's filling up a supposedly R^5 realm. What kind of "infinitesimal" or "fictional" relation is this?

It absorbed literally everything. Otherwise why did Raquel and Naoto's timeline get nuked if it wasn't absorbed and nuked to nonexistence, or why would Kokonoe flat out say that every single possibility is gone thanks to the embryo?

You are just providing points that just confirms what I said, all of the possibilities are gone because of the Doomsday caused by The Embryo, how is it absorption if those worlds were nuked out from existence? Raquel literally says it, his world is gone, it was destroyed, not absorbed.

Except nothing in this entire scenario is it remotely implied it's an ability. The burden of proof is on you to show that they're actually using an ability to time travel through the boundary when every single time they do go through the boundary it's shown they're just doing it by their own movement.
You say that while ignoring my entire laundry list of feats that more than half the cast has shown so... How about you address all of my feats that I listed for once?

I literally told you that I just assumed it was some kind of traveling ability, or just some dimensional travel. And even then, that's not combat applicable, they are using a realm to travel through different worlds. And they are explicty not moving beyond linear-time while fighting others. Otherwise, by your logic, Doomguy or even fodder 9-B Demons from DOOM would have immeasurable speed, given the description of Hell, for moving inside this realm. And they clearly are not immeasurable in speed.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Firephoenixearl It... does. The boundary literally has a statement of containing all the universes in the verse.

So what part of that entire argument remotely debunks my point of space time, and timelines themselves being 4-D?

plenty of other characters have absorption and do have PI, this isn't an Embryo thing, it's a PI thing because the only difference between PI is the scale on which it's used.

That doesn't remotely debunk my point. The fact that they can move inside a realm that transcends space and time is flat out proof they can do it on their own. The only thing that would contradict this if the characters cannot remotely move on their own and needed some outside help to move in the realm to begin with.

What about the ability being broken has anything to do with the argument? She's literally linked with her alternate selves to the point she can see alternate events unfold before they even happen.

Except this is not remotely an absorption for power type thing. This is literally getting his power back to his original strength before it was nerfed at the events of the Dark War. All the cores came from him to begin with, so every single power that those cores had would scale back to him because he was their source.

Except Sorcery has shown to be just Magic, but stronger. That's literally what Rachel describes Sorcery as.

That's because his powers wasn't even activated in the first place. The moment it did activate the seal broke.

That's just arguing semantics at this point when that's not even an established weakness of the tracking magic. Point is his explosion messed with her tracking magic.

Ok how about you pay attention to my points one more time. I'm saying the characters that WOULDN'T be affected by Doomsday would be the ones gaining transduality because they're already beyond the concept of life and death. That was Sech's entire endgame when he was going to cause Doomsday. And yes, there would be complete nothingness, and guess what? People like Noel would be completely unaffected by the time Doomsday's complete.

If you payed attention to my comment to Whynaut, you'd see I conceded with type 5. Holy and power mimicry stuff fine I concede.

@SagaTheLegend Ragna was able to spread across the entire boundary to rewrite all of reality. That's my main point of that feat.

So you're gonna once again ignore my point about timelines existing? Because the fact that timelines exist already destroys your 3-D seithr argument at a fundamental level. So yeah try tackling my point about timelines in blazblue before you go on with the 3-D seithr nonsense.

Except for the fact that literally every single worlds was being affected, otherwise Naoto's reality wouldn't have been nuked. Or Kokonoe using World and possibilities together in the same description about the Embryo destroying everything?

So we're just gonna ignore the fact that Ragna had to walk from the outside world to the boundary's deepest reaches? The guy who has never shown to teleport or fly? Ok then. Ok so you're not gonna remotely try to debunk my Xblaze scans, and just say it's worthless? Glad to know that you can't give much counter points to them aside from saying they're wrong because you said so. Also one more time, "Hi pot, meet kettle" cause 3-D seithr is massive headcanon with no solid proof.

That's not an anti feat, because later on he literally nopes the causality manipulation because he felt like it. And this is Kokonoe we're talking about, the person who can be able to prep time someone who neither exists nor not exists and have her be made through her own power. That ain't an anti-feat to resisting causality.

@Cervical-shifter Transcending the multiverse is bare bones what you'd need to be a higher dimensional realm. And we already have statements of the boundary being filled to the brim with seithr, making the multiverse something of an insignificant factor when it comes to what the boundary already contains in the first place.

Ok so you're just gonna ignore why the hell I have the plane of reality scan in the first place... Good to know

Except that the plane of reality part isn't the main argument, it's transcending the multiverse. Can you get that through your head for once because the plane of reality part is explaining why the parallel universe argument is BS.

I don't think you understand what it is I'm remotely arguing here. I said that lower dimensional things affecting higher dimensional things doesn't contradict the fact that higher dimensional things exist.

Because the worlds that were absorbed into the embryo were then nuked. That's literally the turn of events in Doomsday. The worlds get absorbed and then they all get erased.

How is that not combat applicable when they can FIGHT IN THE REALM? That scan alone doesn't tell me anything on how Hell works. Can they time travel to alternate realities in DOOM? If not that's a false equivalence because we get more descriptions on what the boundary is capable of having, on top of seeing it for ourselves multiple times.

 

[Nobody234]

Hm... i think i agree with Glass here, so consider that a vote from me

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Leaning towards Glass here.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Theglassman12
I will leave this 1st point for later.

The part that there is no higher dimensional space. The 4th dimension in BlazBlue is time. So for them to have Higher D manipulation they'd have to manipulate higher dimensional space, in this case 5th dimensional space. Which is why it doesn't qualify.

And im assuming these characters that have this don't have Absorption because of PI.

It does debunk your point cus they require something that they logically shouldn't need. Why would they need to use the boundary if they can do that themselves? Why go through all the trouble when you can just yeet yourself back in time anytime you want? The boundary being connected to different points in time to the other universes would be the most useless trait ever, they would never need to resort to it. But they do. Also can i get a scan for time not existing in the boundary?

Does not mean she can replace her alternate selves. All you said i don't see how it is any different from having multiversal sensing range. That's just being aware of stuff. It stops there. She also has the memories and is "linked" to her younger versions, shall we argue her younger versions can replace her too?

>Not an absorption for power
>Needs to absorb them for power
Yes i absolutely see your point. I have been completely and utterly debunked.

Not shown, just described which i've said 5 times by now. "stronger means AP not applications".

Yes...the more you describe it, the more it sounds like as long as he wasn't showing the powers it was fine, when he did the seal couldn't handle it.

It sounds like it was an established weakness right now. And im not arguing semantics, but it's pretty dumb to say that when they say "the explosion blew my tracking system" they mean "it modified by tracking system so that it's never usable for tracking anymore". You see how you disregarding what they said to call "semantics" is a pretty bad argument here? Im going by what they said, you're the one going off of headcanon.

How is turning everything in complete nothingness any form of "removing the concept of life and death"? And i heard what you said, but it doesn't match with what the characters are saying. They said "doomsday will remove the concept of life and death", meaning for everybody. Everyone who got affected would just turn into a transdual entity. Which isn't what happened. All they mean by that is they will be turned into nothingness, a state without life or death. Considering as i said, what Doomsday actually did, doesn't match with what they said it would do.

Ok i assume you concede the Abstract Existence too? If yes can we remove these 4 points from the OP? (Acausality, AE, Holy, Power mimic)

 

[Theglassman12]

@Firephoenixearl Ok, that doesn't remotely debunk the higher dimensional existence when the embryo literally became the Multiverse itself. Which is at bare minimum 4-D.

I don't really understand what you're trying to argue here, but the characters that have absorption have this on their profile because it's something notable that they can use in character, the same applies for basically any other user of PI when it comes to what they particularly use with it in character because there's only one difference between PI, the scale on the event you're manipulating. The abilities themselves aren't unique.

I don't think you're understand a word of what I just said. When I said they can do it ON THEIR OWN, I'm talking about moving in the boundary ON THEIR OWN. They don't need a time machine, nor do they need a portal, or any other outside help to traverse this realm in the first place. The fact that they can do this in the first place is proof enough that they can do it. Also here's some proof on the realms near the boundary lacking time.

Yes, and said link resorts in some broken hax like you claim type 3 Acausality said. Like seeing into the future through alternate versions of yourself, by your own logic that would count for type 3. Also none of the arguments I said remotely talked about her YOUNGER selves, it's literally about future events, that's not a younger version.

I'm talking about just strength in power, that alone isn't what Take Mikazuchi is getting, he's gaining their powers as in ABILITIES. Because again the Nox's cores literally come from the giant itself. No matter what semantics you try to pull he gains their power in the first place because they came from him. It's the same case with Yhwach gaining all the sternreitter's powers cause they all came from him.

Except nothing about sorcery being greater than magic has anything to do with strength. It's just magic but better. That's literally it. Soul hax especially has nothing to do with AP.

> when he did the seal couldn't handle it
You do realize that destroys your entire argument right? the fact that the seal couldn't handle it means he resists the seal.

If it was an established weakness they would point out that it is a weakness, because they do so on many things in the VN when it comes to what abilities have limits and the drawbacks or weaknesses. This one doesn't.

So again you're just gonna ignore Noel being an existence that will be unfazed by Doomsday? Making her already beyond the concept of life and death to begin with? Because that's what I'm arguing for, the characters who aren't fazed or turned into seithr to begin with to become beyond the concept of life and death.

I never said I did, because Es is basically tied to the Azure at this point in the series now that she's the guardian. And Es is literal a lot of the times, she's never vague on what it is she's saying since she's basically a robot.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Theglassman12 Have you even read the Higher D manipulation page? Cus it feels like you haven't. Lemme quote it for you:
Higher Dimensional Manipulation is the ability to manipulate greater spatial and temporal dimensions than 3-D space, such as 4-D space and above.
Now what part of this is "higher dimensional spatial and temporal"? 4D in BB's case is 3 dimensions of space + time. To qualify for HDM you'd need to manipulate space higher than 3 dimensions. And 4D isn't higher dimensions of space, it's the same level of space it just has time added onto it. Do you get what im saying? Being 4D doesn't directly qualify for Higher D Manip, at least based what's on the page. The only form of Higher D Manip that could qualify for BB is if the Boundary is accepted as 5D and they manipulate the space of the boundary (the space itself, not the things inside it).

I don't really understand what you're trying to argue here, but the characters that have absorption have this on their profile because it's something notable that they can use in character

Is it because of PI though? Or is it just another ability unrelated to PI (for the other characters)?

I am not talking about moving inside the Boundary dude. I am talking about the fact that they need to go through the boundary to go to another point in time. Which they wouldn't need to do if they were immeasurable in speed. The very fact that they have to go through the boundary to reach such an outcome proves that they cannot do it on their own. Why would they need to go to the boundary to then go to a different point in time if they were truly immeasurable?

Yes, and said link resorts in some broken hax like you claim type 3 Acausality said. Like seeing into the future through alternate versions of yourself, by your own logic that would count for type 3

Still not proof that those other selves can replace her in case of her death though. Which is required for type 3.

Because again the Nox's cores literally come from the giant itself.

I don't think you mentioned this part earlier. But if the Nox's cores are the ones that have the ability and they came from the giant then yeah that is fair. A scan would be good though.

Except nothing about sorcery being greater than magic has anything to do with strength. It's just magic but better.

The word used is "greater" which is just another term for strength actually.

You do realize that destroys your entire argument right? the fact that the seal couldn't handle it means he resists the seal.

No...the fact that the seal couldn't "handle it", means he was too strong for the seal. In other words, the seal wasn't made strong enough to resist him, which just goes back to the "it's not NLF anymore and the way she said everything are textbook the seal not being strong enough rather than him being resistant".

I mean they don't need to point out that tracking can be set off track by strong shockwaves, seems pretty clear that it would. But explosion manipulating powers that's a brain stretch. If anything why didn't the explosion manipulate every power of the people there? Why just that? Why did she say the tracking system was blown, instead of "was manipulated"? Seems pretty stupid if you wanna say that the character actually meant "my ability was changed so that it fundamentally doesn't function the same way anymore" with "blew".

I have no idea how you haven't gotten this yet. Doomsday would make EVERYONE beyond life and death. That is the statement directly. That is what the scans you showed are saying. Yet why didn't Doomsday do that? Why didn't it make everyone beyond life and death but instead just yeeted everyone?

because Es is basically tied to the Azure at this point in the series now that she's the guardian.

No idea how this proves Abstract Existence

And Es is literal a lot of the times, she's never vague on what it is she's saying since she's basically a robot.

She is literal, but i even explained, even taking it literally would be just the old type 3 abstract existence. That's what they all defaulted to. But that type was removed cus it didn't give any bonuses making it an useless power, doesn't mean that all statements that before were type 3 (which are literally the same as what you're using) got upgraded to type 1.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Firephoenixearl The Multiverse itself is a higher dimensional space, it's literally composed of entire space-times, something the higher dimensional page flat out said Spatial and Temporal dimensions. Characters like Nine and Izanami and Noel and others can affect the embryo like it's no problem. That's flat out higher dimensional manipulation.

Yes it's because of PI.

Because that realm literally transcends time and space, something the other worlds do not have. Again, what would be an anti feat would be the characters NOT being able to move in that realm in the first place, but we have more than half the cast in CF doing this feat. What contradicts them moving in this realm in the first place?

So what else would being aware of alternate realities of yourselves of incoming events would count as?

In Blazblue's term, they aren't affiliated with strength. Just that the power is greater. Magic in Blazblue has never been treated as a strength type ability.

So him being too strong for the seal huh? That's literally what being resistant to power null would count for. Especially when Mei again has her title of being a shrine maiden, someone who can seal the black beast's power, a power that TOUYA HAS. You keep ignoring this point.

Because that girl was the only one using any form of power, while the rest were just normal people. So that argument is moot to begin with. Because her tracking system isn't her own forcefield that she can make, it's something innate that she can do naturally.

The azure has all the possibilities in the verse, she's literally tied to the possibilities of the azure when she became the guardian, even Amaterasu when connecting to the azure was stated to literally become possibilities themselves.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I have no opinion on Higher Dimensional stuff or Type 5 (As they aren't my forte), but everything else seems fine to me.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Dude if we had affecting time considered as a "higher temporal dimension" then quite literally every character with time hax would have it. But just in case the wording on HDM is whack and misleading. Call a more experienced member with these stuff. Maybe....Antonionifer or Ultima? Idk how knowledgeable they are on the page.

Just a scan here would be sufficient then.

What contradicts them moving in this realm in the first place?

Do i have to say it again? The fact that they cannot time travel with sheer speed and instead use the Boundary's effect of "being connected to different points in time" to time travel.

So what else would being aware of alternate realities of yourselves of incoming events would count as?

The upcoming events thing is precog i guess, whereas being aware of the alternate realities is just maybe clairvoyance.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

In Blazblue's term, they aren't affiliated with strength. Just that the power is greater. Magic in Blazblue has never been treated as a strength type ability.

I mean that still seems iffy on adding all the applications of magic. I guess adding a "possibly" would work.

So him being too strong for the seal huh? That's literally what being resistant to power null would count for. Especially when Mei again has her title of being a shrine maiden, someone who can seal the black beast's power, a power that TOUYA HAS. You keep ignoring this point.

If he's too strong for the seal, then either something is wrong with her being able to seal the black beast. Or his awakened power is stronger than the Black Beast. If he's too strong for the seal, it's a weakness of the seal, not resistance for him.

And that tracking ward isn't physical? Cus it sounds like it is.

The azure has all the possibilities in the verse, she's literally tied to the possibilities of the azure when she became the guardian, even Amaterasu when connecting to the azure was stated to literally become possibilities themselves.

She's tied to the possibilities meaning she may be directly connected to it, effectively working as the same thing (maybe even a case of if you destroy 1 you destroy the other). Not that she stops lacking a physical existence at all. You'd need a lot more context for that. As i said, without the proof of her lacking a body it's just the old type 3 which doesn't qualify for AE.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with Theglassman

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Disagree with Low 1-C.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So again you're just gonna ignore Noel being an existence that will be unfazed by Doomsday? Making her already beyond the concept of life and death to begin with? Because that's what I'm arguing for, the characters who aren't fazed or turned into seithr to begin with to become beyond the concept of life and death.

Im sorry i seem to have missed this point. You keep missing my question. Just answer the question please:

Doomsday would remove everyone's concept of life and death. That means everyone affected by doomsday had a concept of life and death and doomsday removed it. Wouldn't that mean that everyone in the verse is beyond the concept of life and death? Because even the ones that had a concept of life and death had it removed by Doomsday.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Firephoenixearl My argument was never about affecting time.... for peet sakes I've said the Embryo became the entire MULTIVERSE, something that includes literal TIMELINES. Also I've been trying to call Ultima for the past two days and he hasn't responded at all.

Do I also have to say it again? How do they move in the realm in the first place? Did they need a time machine? Did they need a portal? No, they literally just move in the realm and they can hop between realities on their own. The fact they do not need outside help to move in this realm already proves this enough.

There was nothing wrong with the seal because she never once mentions the fact that she messed up in placing the seal on him in the first place. And why would it be stronger than the black beast when it literally IS the black beast? He even turns into the damn black beast in a bad ending when he couldn't control himself.

Magic tracking in Xblaze is basically shown and treated like ki sensing in DBZ, the characters in the VN don't sense with forcefields, they just sense through their natural abilities.

You....... do know that lacking a body is only a requirement for type 1 Abstract right? Type 2 is literally just type 1 but you do not lack a body to begin with. You're still tied to a concept but you aren't tied to the point that you lack a physical form. If anything this would instead qualify for type 2.

Everyone wouldn't be beyond the concept of life and death because they weren't worthy enough to be left behind after everything was over, hence why they turned into seithr. Again the main people I'm arguing to have this transduality in the first place is people who actually won't be affected in the first place because they're worthy enough to be an existence that transcends the concept of life and death.

@Matthew if you're not gonna remotely explain why you disagree I'm not gonna count you at all.

 

[Ionliosite]

(You didn't even tag Matt properly)

 

[Theglassman12]

@Matthew_Schroeder

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ionliosite are you gonna remotely comment on anything else that isn’t the type 5 Acausality stuff?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree for the same reason as Fire.

 

[Theglassman12]

Fire barely gave any legitimate reason to why Low 1-C should be invalid. He only said the boundary doesn’t contain the multiverse which is just flat out wrong.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yeah, I agree with Glass, there is numerous statements of it containing infinite possibilities / timelines.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Fire barely gave any legitimate reason to why Low 1-C should be invalid. He only said the boundary doesn’t contain the multiverse which is just flat out wrong.

That is not true....I did give several arguments as to why Low 1-C isn't valid before that. I just said "let's leave it for later" after a couple of posts becasue i don't wanna argue all of that in a wall of text between several other things.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Firephoenixearl My argument was never about affecting time.... for peet sakes I've said the Embryo became the entire MULTIVERSE, something that includes literal TIMELINES. Also I've been trying to call Ultima for the past two days and he hasn't responded at all.

>Not about time
>Mentions timelines
Can you at least be coherent? Timelines are just 3D space (which doesn't qualify for HDM) with added time. How can it not be about time but be about timelines?

Do I also have to say it again? How do they move in the realm in the first place? Did they need a time machine? Did they need a portal? No, they literally just move in the realm and they can hop between realities on their own. The fact they do not need outside help to move in this realm already proves this enough.

The fact that they cannot time travel in their normal universes with sheer speed says differently though. Have they ever time traveled with sheer speed? Cus that's what being immeasurable means.

There was nothing wrong with the seal because she never once mentions the fact that she messed up in placing the seal on him in the first place. And why would it be stronger than the black beast when it literally IS the black beast? He even turns into the damn black beast in a bad ending when he couldn't control himself.

Because the seal quite literally couldn't contain his power. His power was too great for the seal. As directly stated by the characters.

Magic tracking in Xblaze is basically shown and treated like ki sensing in DBZ, the characters in the VN don't sense with forcefields, they just sense through their natural abilities.

Yeah but...considering they call it a "tracking ward" it's much different from ki sensing or normal ESP. Making it sound a lot more tangible than ESP.

You....... do know that lacking a body is only a requirement for type 1 Abstract right? Type 2 is literally just type 1 but you do not lack a body to begin with. You're still tied to a concept but you aren't tied to the point that you lack a physical form. If anything this would instead qualify for type 2.

No. For type 2, you'd need proof that you cannot die for as long as X thing you embody exists, in other words type 8 based on whatever thing you embody. Proof which you lack, which means....as i've said 3 times by now, the old type 3, which isn't AE at all now.

Everyone wouldn't be beyond the concept of life and death because they weren't worthy enough to be left behind after everything was over, hence why they turned into seithr. Again the main people I'm arguing to have this transduality in the first place is people who actually won't be affected in the first place because they're worthy enough to be an existence that transcends the concept of life and death.

Why wouldn't everyone be beyond the concept of life and death though? The quotes you gave had nothing about "being worthy" that was sth you directly made up considering you never gave a scan. You want us to take those statements at face value, ok sure, but those statements at face value mean "everyone that is affected by Doomsday gets their L and D concept removed", that clearly did not happen. They got turned to seithr, which wasn't what the scans said Doomsday would do. So how do you explain this? Oh maybe it's just that those words are just trying to explain in a weird way what "turning into seithr and being absorbed" would mean? Basically turning back into this fundamental thing that is neither alive nor dead. No....it can't be right? No way, the scans clearly mean doomsday was made just so that everyone ever would be turned into a transdual entity.

Also as a side note, i don't care what you're arguing, im going off of the scans. The scans say X would happen, im saying well X didn't happen, you saying "im not arguing for that" doesn't help that the statements are saying sth that did not happen.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

On a sidenote i assume you concede to the "possibly" for Sorcery scaling and removal of type 3 Acausality?

Also you never gave the scan i asked for:

Just a scan here would be sufficient then.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

So far, I'm agreeing with Glass's points more. But I'll just drop in to see how this goes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm following for now, remaining neutral for now and may come back to read it all.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Firephoenixearl Oh yes, the arguments where you basically strawmanned my main argument by saying transcending space and time is what's my main point, which is not what my argument is to begin with. The only time you remotely attacked my actual point is just saying "the boundary doesn't contain the multiverse" because that's totally a legitimate argument to make without elaborating how or why.

My main point, is the fact that the characters can manipulate the embryo itself. The being that literally is the multiverse, with space-time galore. Can you explain how becoming the multiverse isn't higher dimensional existence? And manipulating someone who literally is the multiverse is not higher dimensional manipulation?

I just finished a long discussion with Ultima, apparently the standards were changed for immeasurable speeds too, not just infinite speed. So it seems just moving in a realm beyond space and time is another nuked feat, not just the timeless void feat. So I'll concede for immeasurable speed.

Yes, and the characters also said it was dispelled, so what part of this contradicts resisting the seal in the first place?

It's not that tangent, Kuon literally grants Touya the ability to sense magic on his own and he does it through the same way DBZ characters can sense ki.

she was stated by Susanoo to lose her possibilities at the end of their fight, and as result she was susceptible to death by Susanoo and Doomsday.

because those characters failed to be an existence at the end of Doomsday. They just lose their existence and turn into seithr in the process, and the scan said where he'd rid the world of the concept of life and death, and those that would be left, the people who'd still be existing, would transcend both concepts. The ones that didn't stay and were turned to seithr just weren't remotely able to exist, so they wouldn't count for transduality to begin with.

I'm ok with the alternative for type 3, but I never said I conceded for sorcery cause again, magic and sorcery are never treated as the strength type power in the series.

This is the statement where it's stated the cores came from a single core, which is take mikazuchi.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

My main point, is the fact that the characters can manipulate the embryo itself. The being that literally is the multiverse, with space-time galore. Can you explain how becoming the multiverse isn't higher dimensional existence? And manipulating someone who literally is the multiverse is not higher dimensional manipulation?

Because manipulating higher dimensional people isn't higher dimensional manipulation? You have to control higher dimensional space for this to be added, not higher dimensional people. At least based off of what's on the profile.

I just finished a long discussion with Ultima, apparently the standards were changed for immeasurable speeds too, not just infinite speed. So it seems just moving in a realm beyond space and time is another nuked feat, not just the timeless void feat. So I'll concede for immeasurable speed.

Oh? I never heard about this, weird the infinite standard change was so popular. Eh, well standards kicking in.

Yes, and the characters also said it was dispelled, so what part of this contradicts resisting the seal in the first place?

Oh yeah, that's true. Still feels a bit fishy because that's not how she explains it when she mentions what happens. But i guess a possibly is fine.

It's not that tangent, Kuon literally grants Touya the ability to sense magic on his own and he does it through the same way DBZ characters can sense ki.

I mean, they outright call it a tracking ward so....i don't know what you're even trying to argue here.

she was stated by Susanoo to lose her possibilities at the end of their fight, and as result she was susceptible to death by Susanoo and Doomsday

I mean first of all, that's "her possibilities", so i don't think it qualifies in the first place. Second of all from what he says it's because of the azure, she loses the azure and then gets death'd by susanoo?

because those characters failed to be an existence at the end of Doomsday. They just lose their existence and turn into seithr in the process, and the scan said where he'd rid the world of the concept of life and death, and those that would be left, the people who'd still be existing, would transcend both concepts. The ones that didn't stay and were turned to seithr just weren't remotely able to exist, so they wouldn't count for transduality to begin with.

Why did they fail to be an existence at the end of Doomsday. Going by what was said in there (in the scans) there was nothing stated about needing to succeed to be an existence, nothing about erasing existence in the first place. Hell if anything they say that a state of nothingness and a state without life or death are the same thing (which they are cus if you do not exist you aren't within the life or death anymore), rather than saying it EE's and the one's left are without life or death.

I'm ok with the alternative for type 3, but I never said I conceded for sorcery cause again, magic and sorcery are never treated as the strength type power in the series.

This is the statement where it's stated the cores came from a single core, which is take mikazuchi.

Yeah but simply "greater" is a bit iffy, which is why i said "possibly" seems more fair.

I guess that's fine.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Firephoenixearl The Embryo IS THE HIGHER DIMENSIONAL SPACE, that's literally what the Embryo in Central Fiction is when it became the multiverse itself.

Yeah, instead there's just one infinite attack speed that's only gonna scale to like 2 characters max due to wielding a weapon that can pierce through space to attack the opponents, but that's about it.

The tracking ward isn't a forcefield, Xblaze mages always treats tracking as a ki sensing ability. The fact that the dude can mess with that when not actually hitting an innate energy sensing should count for power modification.

The Azure literally has a statement of having all the possibilities in the verse. She lost her connection to the azure so she's lost the thing she's reliant on to stay alive against Susanoo and just dies a few minutes later.

Because they aren't a chosen being like the Successor of the Azure? Something that's stated multiple times to be someone who'd be left behind in Doomsday and allow them to recreate everything to their liking. The text that the dude said literally said where the existence transcends life and death, not that people would be born transcendant of life and death. There's a difference between the two.

And again, that's never how sorcery and magic is treated in the verse. They're never treated as one being physically stronger than the other, just that one's greater than the other.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

>Is 4D, meaning it's made of 3D space and 1D time.
>Is higher dimensional space
Do you even listen to yourself?

Yeah, instead there's just one infinite attack speed that's only gonna scale to like 2 characters max due to wielding a weapon that can pierce through space to attack the opponents, but that's about it.

Scale to the characters in speed, or in speed of the attack? Also does pierce through space give infinite? The last weapon to get infinite speed off of that was LLT but that thing "ignored" space.

The tracking ward isn't a forcefield, Xblaze mages always treats tracking as a ki sensing ability.

Will need proof for that. Cus "ward" is definitely not sth you can do normally by sensing.

The Azure literally has a statement of having all the possibilities in the verse. She lost her connection to the azure so she's lost the thing she's reliant on to stay alive against Susanoo and just dies a few minutes later.

From what they said it's because it's "the azure" (meaning a thing the azure gives) rather than from losing the possibilities. Losing the possibilities was the cause of that not the real reason.
And you just proved she gets death-haxed after that, but not that she can come back if death haxed before losing her possibilities.
Lastly, that actually disqualifies her for embodying the possibilities, cus i don't think a person who embodies something can lose it. If anything the whole "i am the possibility" can just be weird wording to say she has the possibilities rather than she actually embodies them. If she did she cannot lose them or if she did she would still be reliant on them cus she'd be still reliant on possibilities.
Hell the quote isn't even "embody" it's sth like "become 1".

Because they aren't a chosen being like the Successor of the Azure?

It was never stated that "only the successors would be left or transcend life and death", they said everybody would do so.

Something that's stated multiple times to be someone who'd be left behind in Doomsday and allow them to recreate everything to their liking.

Ah yes "someone who'd be left behind", so implying everyone else would go right? The quotes you posted said that they would just make everyone transcendent of life and death. Not that it would erase people. UNLESS, the "transcendent of life and death" simply means "non existing" or as stated in the quotes "nothingness", a place where there is no life and no death, because nothing exists in the first place.

The text that the dude said literally said where the existence transcends life and death

Yes, meaning everyone currently existing would transcend life and death.

not that people would be born transcendant of life and death

I never said that people who will be born will be transcendent.

So again you're just adding more and more useless words onto this but the point remains the same "The quotes said everyone that does get affected would transcend life and death....well, let's just say they clearly didn't achieve transduality". Adding more and more random stuff about why some people are left doesn't defeat the point that, the statements are clearly taken out of context.

They're never treated as one being physically stronger than the other, just that one's greater than the other.

And i assume you have some form of....statement or feat to prove that this "greater" isn't meaning "strength"?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I Agree with the Upgrade.

 

[Theglassman12]

So once again you're ignoring space-time as a whole, great. Wonderful conversation we're having right now. Great to know that the multiverse itself isn't a higher dimensional thing.

speed of the attack, and yes, there's even a Digimon character with infinite speed through spatial attacks too so it's valid.

Literally sensing stuff is something that mages can do innately, and not from any ward. And she can grant others the ability to sense others through magic, no ward is remotely mentioned or shown when she casts this spell in the first place.

Yes, losing the possibilities that she was one with, meaning that she couldn't come back and was susceptible to death and couldn't come back indefinitely thanks to Susanoo's power being far greater.

That's not even stated at all. Where in the text did he remotely say that those who'd be removed would be transcendent of life and death? I like to know because that's never said whatsoever. Also yeah, SOMEBODY, would totally mean EVERYBODY, that's totally how the words function, good job mate. Did everyone that currently exist remotely exist at all when doomsday went through? Or was it a special someone? It was a special someone, how about you use some common sense for once to put two and two together, this isn't rocket science. Again where did it say that those who would be affected would be transcendent of life and death? He literally just said "a world where existences transcend life and death", not that those who'd be affected would be transcendent of life and death.

The fact that everyone who gets stronger only do it through actual strength, like Azrael who's whole gimmick is being strong, but he never once uses magic to begin with. And if it was remotely equated to actual strength then everyone with magic would just scale to being stronger than the Black Beast, which adds way more questions than answers since the Black Beast itself is consistently shown to be a top tier in the verse.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Do you actually think that whether you divide space and time or to say them as "space-time" makes a difference? Dude it's just the average space even you can interact with with the added time. That's what space-time is.

That digimon character seems to have more context on that tbh, but yeah as long as you provide the scans and they look good then i don't mind.

I mean they do mention it to be a ward.

That disqualifies her embodying abstraction though. To embody it means that no matter where those are you are still related cus you are technically the same thing and will always come back for as long as this concept exists. This is at best just non-corporeal, but still needs proof of lacking a body.

That's not even stated at all. Where in the text did he remotely say that those who'd be removed would be transcendent of life and death? I like to know because that's never said whatsoever.

1st scan: Rid the world of Life and Death
2nd scan: A world where existence transcends life and death
Yes it is nowhere stated that the existences that Doomsday would create would be Transdual.

Also yeah, SOMEBODY, would totally mean EVERYBODY, that's totally how the words function, good job mate. Did everyone that currently exist remotely exist at all when doomsday went through? Or was it a special someone? It was a special someone, how about you use some common sense for once to put two and two together, this isn't rocket science.

I have no idea where this came from tbh not that i know what you mean so imma skip.

Again where did it say that those who would be affected would be transcendent of life and death? He literally just said "a world where existences transcend life and death", not that those who'd be affected would be transcendent of life and death.

Yes, in other words turn them to nothingness as Izanami stated.

Actually i'll just ask you a simple question so that we're done here "What did Doomsday actually do to everyone?"

Azrael who's whole gimmick is being strong, but he never once uses magic to begin with

That's false equivalency. Basically since i said "greater" would mean stronger, you just bring up cases of strong people not using magic, despite me never saying "you can't be strong without having magic".

And if it was remotely equated to actual strength then everyone with magic would just scale to being stronger than the Black Beast, which adds way more questions than answers since the Black Beast itself is consistently shown to be a top tier in the verse.

More false equivalency. Magic doesn't mean you're the strongest. It's "sorcery is greater than magic" that simply means "sorcery is more powerful". It's comparing sorcery to magic, stop comparing magic to other shit.

 

[Theglassman12]

you do know that in the actual tiering system we have space time continuums as 4-dimensional space right? It's on the page itself if you think I'm making this up.

and we also have tracking magic be shown and stated to be an innate sensing ability, multiple statements in fact, so Idk where you're even going with this.

Dude, for the last time, that's only type 1 Abstract, not type 2. You do not need to lack a body to gain type 2 abstract existence, read the damn page. Also yes, as long as those concepts exist, they'd come back. Guess what, they don't exist anymore because she doesn't have her possibilities, and she literally just dies a few minutes later.

That's not even my argument dude, have you read my actual argument, because I never once said that. Doomsday turned everything to seithr and rendered them to nothingness. The successor of the azure is the only person who will exist in the end, her existence is not remotely altered or changed in the slightest. She's the only existence left, so her existence would transcend the concept of life and death.

I don't think you understand the argument I'm making do you? My argument is magic and sorcery are never treated as a strength type thing in the series at all. If that was the case, any magic user ever would be stronger than the black beast because they can harm and kill it, including the characters in Xblaze who didn't keep up with the black beast and needed to supress it before it tried killing everyone, which flies in the face of the entire scaling of Blazblue to begin with.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

> Phase Shift: One single statement that The Boundary is a place that transcends everything.
>XBlaze: Get a shitton of statements showing that The Boundary is just a place that it's not part of their reality, and should be outside of the multiverse.

Those two statements are not mutually exclusive, and the Boundary could still be said to be outside of the multiverse and not part of their reality even if it had statements that explicitly fulfilled the exact conditions you're requiring there. Though, you (and I think Earl, too? Based on how our discussions about this went, at least. He can correct me if I'm wrong) seem to have stopped using the whole "It's called a parallel universe" argument and started focusing on whether or not the statement is even Low 1-C to begin with, so.

Considering the way how a Low 1-C structure needs to be in a state that it's perceiving something as it were fictional or a infinitesimal insignificance, it would be nescessary to have a higher/bigger infinity. That's how a qualitative Higher-D structure should normaly work, and the Boundary never had any statement of higher infinity.

Transcending is not qualitatively enough, actually, the real definition of it is just be beyond or surpass, not a bigger/higher infinity.

You don't need to be explicitly defined as a higher infinity to qualify for a tier higher than 2-A, being stated to "transcend space and time" in a way that makes it clear you are in a state which exceeds the whole of a 4-dimensional continuum also qualifies. And this certainly seems to be the case here, given how one of the quotes pretty blatantly says the Boundary transcends the spacetime of the universe, and thus every moment and event drifts there and can be observed from outside by people who access it.

>Is 4D, meaning it's made of 3D space and 1D time.
>Is higher dimensional space
Do you even listen to yourself?

A four-dimensional spacetime would also be a "space" under the terms which the Higher-Dimensional Manipulation uses, since, in mathematics, that word is just the name given to any set of objects that also has some additional property endowed into it. So any coordinate system is a space, and whether some of the axes are temporal or not doesn't really interfere with this definition.

Then again, I don't think we've ever given people Higher-Dimensional Manipulation solely because they can manipulate spacetime, and that ability in itself is kinda arbitrarily given (At least from what I've seen) and probably shouldn't even exist anyway.

And since I'm already here, I suppose giving my input on some of the stuff in the OP wouldn't hurt, either.

So Sechs wanted to cause Doomsday, which he stated will remove the concept of life and death and even transcend both life and death for all existences. So the characters that were unfazed by Doomsday to begin with should have Transduality for this alone

That doesn't actually prove they inherently exist beyond the duality of life and death, just that they'd be unaffected by an event that'd erase those concepts altogether, which would be Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation, at most.

Mind you, I think those scans are vague and pretty barebones in terms context, since they don't even elaborate on what this process would entail in the first place, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt until you provide further information on that.

Another one would be from a description on Phenomena Intervention, so if you’re in a state where you neither exist or not exist, PI is almost impossible. So this should scale to Celica and Noel, and Susanoo via Noel, and true Blazblue Ragna as they’re all in that state of existence, and even Naoto as he’s stated to have a similar existence to Noel and Celica

From what I've read, Phenomena Intervention functions by observing one of the infinite possibilities revolving around an event / phenomenon and then turning it into definite reality by collapsing it into the physical world, no? If so, those scans just seem to establish that you need some information about a phenomenon's state of affairs to even make an observation about it to begin with, and entities that have no tangible presence are immune to this due to the fact that they can't be observed at all.

It doesn't really say that they exist beyond the duality of existing and not existing, just that universe doesn't register any information about them, so people can't really verify if they actually exist or not, thus making them unobservable.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ultima_Reality So Izanami said in Central Fiction how the world at the end of Doomsday would be a world without life or death, and it's stated numerous times that the Successor of the Azure would be the existence qualified for the azure to be left behind in this world without life or death. My argument would be that the existence that's left behind this world without life or death would qualify for this transduality since they'd be an existence as opposed to other beings, who'd lose their existence in the end.

So how Phenomena Intervention works is by manipulating things that exist or do not exist. And when it comes to the whole "unobservable beings" are stated numerous times to be about their whole existence, as referenced by some knowledgeable characters in the verse regarding Celica in particular. This even occurs in the end of Central Fiction where Ragna nukes his entire existence to the point that not even his own information exists anymore, which is in line with the whole "information being required" weakness. The page on transduality mentioned how when it comes to binaries like 0 and 1, being in between 0 and 1, or outside of the binary would count for the transdual being. Which is pretty in line when it comes to beings that shouldn't exist by blazblue's terms, which btw, makes it evident on how they can easily manipulate things that don't exist whatsoever as if it's no business, but beings that are in neither state are a pain when it comes to using PI on.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

and we also have tracking magic be shown and stated to be an innate sensing ability, multiple statements in fact, so Idk where you're even going with this.

The issue is, which one was used at that very moment. Even if not stated makes much more sense to go for the ward considering it "blew" the tracking.

Dude, for the last time, that's only type 1 Abstract, not type 2. You do not need to lack a body to gain type 2 abstract existence, read the damn page. Also yes, as long as those concepts exist, they'd come back. Guess what, they don't exist anymore because she doesn't have her possibilities, and she literally just dies a few minutes later.

When did i say not lacking a body is required for type 2 though?

Also "she doesn't have them" doesn't mean "they do not exist". HUGE difference between the 2. If she were really "embodying" as you say then as long as the possibilities (as a concept) exist then she'll come back. You cannot separate the 2 with "they took them lol", cus she doesn't own the possibilities, or doesn't need to own them, she's just embodying the possibilities.

Also as i said, the scan isn't even saying she embodies it, it says "she is 1 with the possibilities".

Doomsday turned everything to seithr and rendered them to nothingness. The successor of the azure is the only person who will exist in the end, her existence is not remotely altered or changed in the slightest. She's the only existence left, so her existence would transcend the concept of life and death.

FINALLY. Doomsday turned everything to nothingness. So the people who are left just resisted getting turned into nothingness. All that "transcend life and death" bullshit they said was simply to say they were turning everyone to nothingness (as Izanami states), the other scan just says doomsday throws all the souls and human lives back to their source, still more proof all that "transcend life and death" is flowery and just supposed to mean "there will be no life or death cus no one will even exist". Pretty much no different from what we say for Type 5 immortality.

any magic user ever would be stronger than the black beast because they can harm and kill it

You seemed to have missed the point too. Just cus they weren't treated as having strength doesn't mean something else can't be more capable in that regard without having the same vesatility.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Also that whole transduality thing you mentioned to Ultima. Isn't that whole thing basically disproving that they are transdual to begin with? Cus one says "they should not exist" (implying that they do exist, although they shouldn't), and the other says he nukes his own existence along with the information, in other words he is non-existent type 1.

 

[Ionliosite]

are you gonna remotely comment on anything else that isn’t the type 5 Acausality stuff?

I mean, I'm obviously on the same boat as Matthew as always.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Firephoenixearl Yes, the tracking power, something that isn't normal to interact with to begin with. Even the seal that's used to seal Touya's power was basically something infused with his body. Magic spells like these in the series aren't tangible to the point that anyone can just hit them or interact with easily, and I've already proven that magic sensing is akin to ki sensing in DBZ, use Occam's Razor, the dude was able to affect her power of tracking when the explosion hit.

This is at best just non-corporeal, but still needs proof of lacking a body. This is what you said, Abstract type 1 explicitly states that you need to lack a physical form to gain it. Type 2 you can embody the thing while still having a body. They do not exist anymore, literally every possibility was wiped from existence at the end of Doomsday so the thing she's embodying no longer exists. Making it easier for her to die in Blazblue's terms.

Despite the fact that Sorcery and Magic are shown to do very similar things together, with one just being greater overall. So that still scales the soul hax because Sorcery is just magic but better.

If he was just nonexistent type 1 then they'd already be able to affect him because that's something ANYONE WITH PI can do, that's the core aspect of manipulating anything for PI. The fact that they're not remotely the same thing as a normal nonexistent type 1 since they're not even registered as an existence or non existence, and other characters mention how it's a miracle someone could exist despite being an anomaly is more than just typical nonexistence.

@Ionliosite Oh yeah, Matt, the same dude who barely gave much of an argument and just agrees with Fire's bare bone arguments he gave in the thread. How about everything else? Why exactly do you not agree with everything then?