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Oh yeah, Matt, the same dude who barely gave much of an argument and just agrees with Fire's bare bone arguments he gave in the thread. How about everything else? Why exactly do you not agree with everything then?
I don't know how Earl's massive wall of text that are as big as yours are bare bones unless you mean your own arguments are bare bones. But on the other part, I don't agree with everything because the argument against it simply makes much more sense and thus share Matthew's opinion on the subject.
 
@Ionliosite oh yeah MY arguments are bare bones, where I have scans and plenty of other statements to back up my Low 1-C upgrade, as opposed to Earl's arguments against Low 1-C, which is the only thing Matt remotely agreed with btw, who wasn't even attacking my actual arguments for Low 1-C, and when I already explained it to him what my arguments is he literally just said, "It doesn't contain the multiverse" and never elaborates, which btw is 100% wrong given what's stated.
 
If you think my arguments are bare bones, I like you to explain how they're bare bones
 
If you think my arguments are bare bones, I like you to explain how they're bare bones
Your argument aren't bare bones, that was the whole point of my post. I recommend you to drop that aggresive tone that isn't fit for a staff member and read the others' posts before going against them.
 
I did read the other posts, and I explained how they're wrong if you've been following this entire thread. So you wanna comment on why they make more sense? I'm curious to know.
 
and I explained how they're wrong if you've been following this entire thread
And they explained why you're wrong if you've been following this entire thread. Both sides can play this game, and it isn't healthy on either way, so don't use cheap tactics like that as an argument.
 
Where did they explain how I'm wrong? Where did Fire explain how I'm wrong on the boundary containing the multiverse?
 
Yes, the tracking power, something that isn't normal to interact with to begin with.
Gonna need a scan for this, and by that i mean link me a video where this whole thing happens with a timestamp.

use Occam's Razor, the dude was able to affect her power of tracking when the explosion hit
Funny you use this one, considering we can easily say "it was a ward and it was blown away", rather than "explosion with power modification lol".

This is at best just non-corporeal, but still needs proof of lacking a body. This is what you said, Abstract type 1 explicitly states that you need to lack a physical form to gain it. Type 2 you can embody the thing while still having a body. They do not exist anymore, literally every possibility was wiped from existence at the end of Doomsday so the thing she's embodying no longer exists. Making it easier for her to die in Blazblue's terms.
First of all, not what was said in the scans, it said "she lost her possibilities", not "possibilities as a concept ceased to exist".

Second of all, you still did not provide any scans of "i can come back as long as possibilities exist". Just sayin. You never backed up your opinion.

Despite the fact that Sorcery and Magic are shown to do very similar things together, with one just being greater overall. So that still scales the soul hax because Sorcery is just magic but better.
Do you have any more context on this "greater" though. Yes they have shown some of the same applications but "greater" still doesn't mean you should scale to the whole versatility.

As a side note this ain't a great addition and i can agree to this with a "yeah fine whatever", but then ppl will be arguing more dumb shit with the pretext of "well blazblue did it and it was fine".

If he was just nonexistent type 1 then they'd already be able to affect him because that's something ANYONE WITH PI can do, that's the core aspect of manipulating anything for PI. The fact that they're not remotely the same thing as a normal nonexistent type 1 since they're not even registered as an existence or non existence, and other characters mention how it's a miracle someone could exist despite being an anomaly is more than just typical nonexistence.
Which was just because they also have all their info erased in other words you lack the information to use PI which was stated to be necessary for it.

And i assumed you dropped the "transdual because of doomsday life and death thing" since you didn't mention it.

Where did Fire explain how I'm wrong on the boundary containing the multiverse?
That's kind of desperate on your side. Considering i never said "you're right" i just said "leave this for the end cus it has more to discuss.
 
Here is the scene.

Possibilities did fail to exist, that's what Doomsday does in the first place. The fact that she lost her possibilities makes her unable to be reliant on the concept and the fact that she literally dies a few minutes later is proof.

You literally just admitted that they've been shown the same application, so why would Sorcery not have the same innate stuff magic has, but on a higher level? Also I don't care if they try to scale abilities off of each other for other verses if they have the same legit reasoning to why they would scale in the first place.

Yes, and without said information, you're literally a schrodinger's cat type being who's neither existing nor not existing since people mention that beings without the info are somehow able to exist despite not supposed to exist.

Ah yes, it's desperate for me to ask someone what their stand is on a thread they never gave their full input on and asking why they agree with someone's point when I've made rebuttals to said point, and it's totally not desperate when you keep asking me if I conceded when I've never once said that regarding your end.
 
>Blew my enemy-tracking ward
Yes yes, it's not heavily implying that enemy tracking magic used is tangible. Along with...you know...the fact that they outright freaking construct this thing. I can absolutely see the "it's the same as ki sensing" point.

The fact that she lost her possibilities makes her unable to be reliant on the concept and the fact that she literally dies a few minutes later is proof.
You haven't proved she can revive off of them though. Very important part of whatever you're discussing.

You literally just admitted that they've been shown the same application, so why would Sorcery not have the same innate stuff magic has, but on a higher level?
Having a couple of similar applications doesn't mean they have all the same applications though....

Yes, and without said information, you're literally a schrodinger's cat type being who's neither existing nor not existing since people mention that beings without the info are somehow able to exist despite not supposed to exist.
They exist even though they're not supposed to. Not "they exist while not existing". It's just a case of they "do exist", they just "shouldn't". There is a huge difference between do/don't and should/shouldn't. They do not contradict each-other.

and it's totally not desperate when you keep asking me if I conceded when I've never once said that regarding your end
I mean you completely skipped the point so....what am i supposed to think? Considering even now you chose to skip it there are 2 options here, either i assume you conceded or i assume you sneakily tried to skip that point hoping people would forget because you lack the arguments against it.

Now it's rude to assume the latter so what i do is assume the former. Am i incorrect in doing this?
 
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I don't quite see how the last sentence was "Rude", but anyway. I pretty much have the same thoughts as Ultima Reality.
 
@Firephoenixearl And we're just gonna ignore the part where she literally mentioned her forcefield being hit in the attack, and like a few minutes later, she tries using her tracking magic but realizes it doesn't work either, making them not the same thing so Idk what your point is.

I literally just told you that she's able to maintain her existence due to having the possibilities intact, and she dies not that long after she loses them from Doomsday.

These aren't a couple of similarities, these are A LOT of similarities.

It is a contradiction dude, she literally is unable to exist because no one is observing her, having no observation in Blazblue literally means you do not exist. That's like what Terumi's ghost form is, him not being observed so he doesn't exist since nothing is observing him. Celica is not being observed due to her existence being different, so she cannot exist but she somehow does despite having no one to observe her.

You say that accusing people of stuff is wrong yet you literally accused me of being desperate when I'm asking Ion to elaborate his point, kind of a contradiction there buddy.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Antvasima Can you guys give your input on the rest of my CRT? Ultima only commented on the Low 1-C and transduality stuff, but not everything else I at least want this to be done by the end of this week before school takes over my time, also Crimson already commented on this thread, Perpetual and Zelda haven't yet.
 
The wall of hax abilities seem legit as does Immeasurable speed.
 
And we're just gonna ignore the part where she literally mentioned her forcefield being hit in the attack, and like a few minutes later, she tries using her tracking magic but realizes it doesn't work either, making them not the same thing so Idk what your point is.
When did i mention her forcefield and tracking ward is the same thing? Doesn't change the fact that it's a "ward", has to be constructed and can be "blown away by explosions". It's pretty clear it's far more tangible than your "ki sensing" is making it out to be.

I literally just told you that she's able to maintain her existence due to having the possibilities intact, and she dies not that long after she loses them from Doomsday.
Still don't see the scans for "she cannot die for as long as the possibilities exist".

These aren't a couple of similarities, these are A LOT of similarities.
Some still doesn't mean on so i don't see your point.

It is a contradiction dude, she literally is unable to exist because no one is observing her, having no observation in Blazblue literally means you do not exist. That's like what Terumi's ghost form is, him not being observed so he doesn't exist since nothing is observing him. Celica is not being observed due to her existence being different, so she cannot exist but she somehow does despite having no one to observe her.
>She is unable to exist because no one is observing her.
She still exists though, i can easily say that she doesn't need observation to exist (is a special case, she already is a special case by not being able to be observed), considering she's outright stated to exist, it's just that people cannot confirm it.

You say that accusing people of stuff is wrong yet you literally accused me of being desperate when I'm asking Ion to elaborate his point, kind of a contradiction there buddy.
I don't think you accuse people of desperate, they either come out as desperate or they don't. And i never said it's desperate for you to ask ion for elaboration. Read again.
 
I do not think that our current Speed rules allow Immeasurable speed for the kind of feat that you described.

High-Godly Regeneration also seems very exaggerated, unless you provide a very good justification for it.

I do not understand the rationale for Death Manipulation.

Abstract Existence also seems uncertain.

Most of the other suggestions seem fine, but I am not well-suited for evaluating all of them.

@Elizhaa @Firestorm808 @Eficiente

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating the entire first post in this thread?
 
Low 1-C should be removed as there's no reason for it.

"Reason being is that the Boundary not only holds those infinite realities that exists in the BB verse, but also transcends them. Even in Xblaze they further elaborate on how it’s an alternate dimension/plane of reality that’s not part of the world."

None of that shows that it transcends the multiverse. The Boundary not being part of the universe doesn't mean anything tier wise.

"The Boundary is stated to be a realm that transcends time and space"

Who cares? That doesn't give any speed, you can say anything transcends time and space and it doesn't give anything. It also probably just refers to how the place is not in the universe/time-space, but outside it like any good dimension is in fiction. Some dimension in Kirby has the same stuff going on, being outside the universe and transcending time and space, but we as a wiki long outgrew taking fancy sentences like this and affirming they must mean x super high stats.


This doesn't give any speed. We also went over things like things when we updated the Speed page, removing MCU Dorm his infinite speed despite him being in a realitity beyond time and without the concept of time.


What's the regen there?

"Possible Abstract Existence: Due to the fact that she’s stated to become one with the possibility of the Azure, though I wanna know if this can be registered as Type 1"

The AE page only gives 2 types based on stuff we made up but characters can have abstract existences without being any of the types there.
 
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Thank you for helping out Eficiente. I think that you make sense.
 
For infinite either the usual distance in no time, inf distance in finite time or true timeless voids.

For immeasurable afaik it's just "time travel with speed"
 
@Firephoenixearl despite the fact that tracking is something that she can use through her ki sensing given the events of the game so it's not that tangible to begin with.

I never said some, I said a lot, read my post.

People can confirm that she literally isn't supposed to exist because she has no one observing herself, again read my scan where it said that with no observation you cannot exist. Anything that doesn't get observed literally cannot exist, she's not observed by anyone but she's in a state of being where she neither exists nor not exist due to being a Chrono Phantasma.

Again you literally called me desperate by claiming something I never said. I never said you claimed I was right, I said how did you elaborate how I was wrong when you never elaborated on your points?

@Antvasima the main villain in the series has self observation, which he used to come back from being erased across time, which is shown in the series to be far stronger than being erased across history, anyone that has self observation would scale to the villain because that's literally how he came back from EE that's stronger than history erasure.

The Immortal Breaker is stated to implant death into one's mind, killing them in the process.

@Eficiente That's not even my main argument for Low 1-C dude, that's just a supporting argument, my main argument is that there's two statements on the boundary, one that it transcends everything, and another on how said everything would include the multiverse itself. The plane of reality is just supporting arguments on the boundary not being contained by the multiverse as it exists outside of it.

the main villain in the series has self observation, which he used to come back from being erased across time, which is shown in the series to be far stronger than being erased across history, anyone that has self observation would scale to the villain because that's literally how he came back from EE that's stronger than history erasure.

Soooo it's just some other form of AE that's not on the page? That's it?

Also as a side note, can we add some note on the speed page regarding immeasurable? Because there's no mention whatsoever on realms that transcend space and time are nuked feats for immeasurable. Only that timeless voids are nuked feats.
 
Being completely erased across time is just Mid-Godly Regeneration as far as I am aware, as he wasn't conceptually and narratively destroyed, or something similar.
 
Also as a side note, can we add some note on the speed page regarding immeasurable? Because there's no mention whatsoever on realms that transcend space and time are nuked feats for immeasurable. Only that timeless voids are nuked feats.
Here is what our Speed page currently says:

"Timeless Voids, i.e. areas within a setting that lack time or exist outside of the flow of time, cannot be used to grant Infinite speed. One might be tempted to apply Speed = Distance/Time and say that time equals 0 in this situation, thus moving through this type of void should result in Infinite speed. However, in a Timeless Void, time does not exist, making Time = Not Applicable.

So in short, Time = Nonexistent or Not Applicable and Distance/Time = Undefined and cannot be determined under these conditions."

I think that this case would fall under "exist outside of the flow of time", but it might be a good idea to start a staff revision thread for this issue, yes.
 
That's actually valid for regen because this explanation for high godly.

"The ability to regenerate after erasure from all aspects of existence, such as from history, narrative/plot, or conceptual/information destruction."

Erased across time = erased from history. Many characters have high godly because of this.

Though i still don't get it why this equates to being destroyed conceptually.
 
That's actually valid for regen because this explanation for high godly.

"The ability to regenerate after erasure from all aspects of existence, such as from history, narrative/plot, or conceptual/information destruction."

Erased across time = erased from history. Many characters have high godly because of this.

Though i still don't get it why this equates to being destroyed conceptually.
I made a thread discussing it
 
I agree that the wording doesn't make any sense. Being erased from history does not equate being eradicated from all aspects of existence.
 
despite the fact that tracking is something that she can use through her ki sensing given the events of the game so it's not that tangible to begin with.
Not what they stated on the scans, she may have other methods, doesn't mean it's the only method.

I never said some, I said a lot, read my post.
Semantics. Still doesn't mean all the same applications, stick to what it has shown.

People can confirm that she literally isn't supposed to exist because she has no one observing herself, again read my scan where it said that with no observation you cannot exist. Anything that doesn't get observed literally cannot exist, she's not observed by anyone but she's in a state of being where she neither exists nor not exist due to being a Chrono Phantasma.
As i said, she can easily be a special case considering how she is pretty special either way. And even if i were to assume this was correct, that's still not transduality. She doesn't transcend the dual concept of existence and nonexistence. She would just be both at the same time. Because she "does exist". Also that is further denied by the fact that "proof of existence" which is the requirement for PI to work is just information about you in the past and present, which as Ragna stated was already erased, so the PI point doesn't really help.

Soooo it's just some other form of AE that's not on the page? That's it?
It's not a form of AE. It's the old type 3 as i've said several times. It's just the usual "oh i embody this" without further context which doesn't give AE anymore (before it would give type 3, now it's nuked so it's nothing).
 
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@Eficiente That's not even my main argument for Low 1-C dude, that's just a supporting argument, my main argument is that there's two statements on the boundary, one that it transcends everything, and another on how said everything would include the multiverse itself. The plane of reality is just supporting arguments on the boundary not being contained by the multiverse as it exists outside of it.
That supporting stuff doesn't add up to Low 1-C, the less we have things like that written in profiles the less confusing everything will be. Transcending doesn't mean much, if a building is above other building then destroying the former doesn't mean much next to destroying the latter.
the main villain in the series has self observation, which he used to come back from being erased across time, which is shown in the series to be far stronger than being erased across history, anyone that has self observation would scale to the villain because that's literally how he came back from EE that's stronger than history erasure.
Well, what sentences with evidence you propose in their regen that would have everything pointed out? That would only that a few. Also are you sure that main villain isn't using it in a unique way or the like?
Soooo it's just some other form of AE that's not on the page? That's it?
More or less as it's not even that, one can say it became one with x weird thing without losing physical form, gaining durability or powers 100% on the level of said x weird thing, but only powers to manipulate it to some extent. That can happen.
 
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I’ll be back to comment on this thread soon, some IRL issues came up and I’m gonna be occupied in the time being
 
Ok so while we have the break time i will post the reasoning for why Low 1-C is whack.

There are 2 main "arguments" for the Low 1-C boundary so let's go over them 1 by 1.

Transcending time and space and transcending the world
Let's begin to discuss why this isn't enough justification.
For 1, transcending doesn't necessarily mean "surpass" everything, it can easily mean just "outside", which needless to say isn't a word that can give a higher dimension. You may rightfully ask "well we do not assume that transcending means outside by default so we can assume the statement to mean surpass". Well that is indeed correct and it would be a fair point if it weren't for the fact that another scan specifically states that The boundary is a space outside of the world. Rendering the transcending statements far....less believable than they would usually be.

Containing the possibilities
Exactly as the wording states the boundary contains the "possibilities", not the universes.
Although there is a connection between "possibility" and "universe", they are not the same thing. The relation between them is that there is a universe for each possibility, and that a universe represents 1 possibility. Not that a possibility and a universe are the same thing, this whole idea stems from the fact that they can be used interchangeably as terms when it comes to their number, which as i said is the same.

On the other hand, what is a possibility? Well it is just an event, a phenomena it is 1 of the things that can happen in the future, a possible outcome. We can see this when Rachel explains Phenomena Intervention. But what is the exact quote for containing the possibilities:

This is the place where every single moment, every single event, every single possibilities drifts. It was to let Raquel observe everything.

So Boundary contains every single "event", "possibility". And we explained how the relation between these 2. So how can an event be in a place. Well that's the easiest part. Events are just information, something that happened that can be stored as easily as data on a computer. And let's just say that a place with infinite information that contains all of the information about a world would obviously contain every event that happened in the form of information. So "every single possibility drifts" is not referring to the universes, possibilities are not universes, they are just related in a way i explained above.

But this seems just like im saying it's not Low 1-C just by saying why the reasons for it are not Low 1-C, is there any other proof that outright contradicts these places being Low 1-C?

Yes indeed. The boundary is a place outside of the universe, it is separated from the universes through a space where time does not exists called the Edge (very reminiscent of the space in-between universes and directly contradicting it containing the universe if it is separated from them through the space between universes). The boundary only connects the universes, it serves as a connection point and It is stated that to go to a different universe you'd have to go "beyond" the boundary (which directly contradicts them being contained inside it. Since if it were it wouldn't be going beyond the boundary to reach another place you'd still be in the boundary). Which makes these statements and explanations even more supported by the fact that the boundary is described "parallel universe" (with more proof on parallel being that these 2 are not supposed to intersect at all, let alone be contained) and "another dimension" as opposed to "a higher dimension" (which, from experience in a recent debate including this very topic, really matters when you're trying to argue for it).

To sum up, not only are the things used to prove Low 1-C just not enough or not necessarily Low 1-C at all, as @Eficiente said, but it is also straight up contradicted by several other quotes and scans from the games.
 
Earl seems to make sense to me. What do other staff members here think?
 
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