Bionicle General Discussion Thread

[Lonkitt]

I personally don’t think it’s as extreme as some other power jumps, though in the context of Bionicle, I can understand that perspective

The Toa Mahri's mutations were because of the Ignika, which also greatly enhanced several other creatures that it changed. There is a case to be made that the Ignika boosted the power of these specific Toa

 

[Promestein]

I guess, but it'd be hard to justify. They're not exactly described as being stronger than other Toa.

Also, Teridax's durability feats are just better than other Makuta's, for the protosteel comment. He tanks surprise attacks from Brutaka and takes light attacks from Takanuva without much difficulty. The strongest Makuta are just beasts.

 

[Neutralino]

Also, Teridax's durability feats are just better than other Makuta's, for the protosteel comment. He tanks surprise attacks from Brutaka and takes light attacks from Takanuva without much difficulty. The strongest Makuta are just beasts.

The surprise hit was from an energy blast, which has no evidence for it being as strong as Brutaka's physical strikes. Teridax was in a Maxilos at the time; I don't really think random mass-produced guard robots are going to be Brutaka tier. Did Takanuva ever manage to hit another Makuta other than Teridax?

I've been rereading the comics, and oh wow, are characters knocked out or killed by falling rocks a common occurrence...

 

[Promestein]

I've been rereading the comics, and oh wow, are characters knocked out or killed by falling rocks a common occurrence...

These sorts of anti-feats are omnipresent in fiction, not just Bionicle.

The surprise hit was from an energy blast, which has no evidence for it being as strong as Brutaka's physical strikes. Teridax was in a Maxilos at the time; I don't really think random mass-produced guard robots are going to be Brutaka tier. Did Takanuva ever manage to hit another Makuta other than Teridax?

Absurd to assume that Brutaka wasn't trying to take out Teridax or that the blast was so much weaker than what he oneshot all 6 Toa with.

 

[Lonkitt]

Did Takanuva ever manage to hit another Makuta other than Teridax?

On that note, I’d like to go back to when I brought up Takanuva. I said that he should scale above the Nuva given that one statement I brought up, but the Makuta fearing him is likely more to do with the fact that his powers are light based, meaning he’s just walking Makuta Kryptonite

However, Greg did say in a QNA blog that while Takanuva is weaker than the Toa Nuva, he’s not a “normal” Toa, and wouldn’t be below the Mata in power (ergo, he wouldn’t be lesser than a common Toa). Based on the statement, I think it’s fair to say that Takanuva is stronger than common Toa, but below the Nuva

Based on the Makuta fighting feats I provided, it looks like the Nuva only widened the gap between themselves and Takanuva, even with his larger form

 

[Neutralino]

Absurd to assume that Brutaka wasn't trying to take out Teridax or that the blast was so much weaker than what he oneshot all 6 Toa with.

Energy blasts don't always scale from physical strikes in fiction. Even if Brutaka's did, should a Maxilos be more durable than a Toa Nuva?

 

[Promestein]

Toa Nuva are only elementally stronger than other Toa, so yes, a Maxilos could feasibly be more durable than a Toa. The only really relevant Maxilos is the one Teridax possessed, and yeah, either Maxilos are just nutty or Teridax's possession amped it a bit, given Teridax's confidence in fighting all 6 Barraki at once and his feats against Brutaka.

 

[Neutralino]

Toa Nuva are only elementally stronger than other Toa,

Really? All Toa have more or less the same physicals? If so, then this could justify Maxilos's apparent durability over the Nuva because their job was to guard some very powerful prisoners of the Pit, among them Toa Tuyet. Brutaka's energy projection still needs to be quantified, though.

either Maxilos are just nutty or Teridax's possession amped it a bit, given Teridax's confidence in fighting all 6 Barraki at once and his feats against Brutaka.

I don't think Makuta possession changed the robot. Teridax's powers don't change in strength when he changes bodies.

 

[Promestein]

I sincerely doubt Brutaka's energy projection is so much weaker that it'd result in a tier drop for not oneshotting an otherwise featless robot possessed by the main antagonist

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah, nothing has suggested Brutaka’s energy projection is any stronger than his physical attacks

 

[Neutralino]

Yeah, nothing has suggested Brutaka’s energy projection is any stronger than his physical attacks

Nothing says they're as strong, either. Still, I can accept his energy attacks as being somewhat comparable to his physical strikes because energy projection and physical strikes tend to not usually be orders of magnitude apart in fiction and because Brutaka's wasn't portrayed as being a weak or trivial attack (Godzilla’s atomic breath being a notable example where it's indeed magnitudes stronger than his melee).

 

[Lonkitt]

Godzilla works entirely different from Brutaka though. Brutaka's blasts are never portrayed as an ability that's so much more powerful that its far removed from his striking strength. It is simply more logical to scale his blasts and his physical attacks to the same level

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Got a Bionicle vs match here

 

[Elizio33]

Look what I found. A link with many of Greg F. Q&A and Bionicle stories. This would be very helpful!

Greg ranked the strongest to the weakest beings in the Matoran Universe in physical terms: Nocturn, Makuta (Teridax), Axonn, Brutaka, Botar, Reidak, Carapar, Krekka.

 

[Promestein]

That's cool but I'm not sure if it's consistent with how we treat things. Doesn't make a lot of sense, too, Keetongu was comparable to Teridax physically

 

[Elizio33]

That's cool but I'm not sure if it's consistent with how we treat things. Doesn't make a lot of sense, too, Keetongu was comparable to Teridax physically

You might be right.

 

[Elizio33]

Greg Farshtey was asked about his apparent contradiction on whether Axonn and Brutaka had powers close to the level of a Makuta or not. He stated that an Order of Mata Nui member could certainly give a Brotherhood of Makuta member a battle, but he had not yet decided how equal in power he wanted the individual members to be.

With the depiction in the novels, it clearly shows what Greg said, a member of the Order of Mata Nui is strong enough to put up a fight with a Makuta but is not as powerful, only close to an unknown extent.

 

[Lonkitt]

I'm still of the belief that Adaptive Armour Toa and Toa Mahri should scale higher than they currently do

 

[Elizio33]

I'm still of the belief that Adaptive Armour Toa and Toa Mahri should scale higher than they currently do

Why the Adaptive Armour Toa Nuva and the Toa Mahri should scale higher?

 

[Lonkitt]

Why the Adaptive Armour Toa Nuva and the Toa Mahri should scale higher?

Earlier in this thread I referenced instances of direct scaling to certain Makuta and Barraki

 

[Elizio33]

Earlier in this thread I referenced instances of direct scaling to certain Makuta and Barraki

The Makuta were holding back in Karda Nui. Even one of the Toa Nuva wondered why they were still alive at this point and Greg F admitted that he intentionally nerfed Karda Nui's Makuta because if the Makuta were really serious and at full capable, the Toa would be dead for five minutes and the story would be over.

 

[Elizio33]

The Barraki were easily defeated by Teridax. You can say that the Barraki were holding back until their armies arrived, but the fact that the Barraki had to rely on their armies to defeat Teridax while the latter was possibly at his weakest (or just weakened) strongly implies that the Barraki are not close to Teridax.

 

[Lonkitt]

The Makuta were holding back in Karda Nui. Even one of the Toa Nuva wondered why they were still alive at this point and Greg F admitted that he intentionally nerfed Karda Nui's Makuta because if the Makuta were really serious and at full capable, the Toa would be dead for five minutes and the story would be over.

The Barraki were easily defeated by Teridax. You can say that the Barraki were holding back until their armies arrived, but the fact that the Barraki had to rely on their armies to defeat Teridax while the latter was possibly at his weakest (or just weakened) strongly implies that the Barraki are not close to Teridax.

A) Why would the Makuta (aside from Krika) or Barraki hold back? That makes no sense
B) Even if they were holding back, they were still harmed. For example, Jaller severely harmed and rendered one of the Barraki unconscious. Bionicle characters can't "hold back" their durability like Dragon Ball characters
C) I've never seen Greg say the Karda Nui Makuta were nerfed

 

[Elizio33]

A) Why would the Makuta (aside from Krika) or Barraki hold back? That makes no sense
B) Even if they were holding back, they were still harmed. For example, Jaller severely harmed and rendered one of the Barraki unconscious. Bionicle characters can't "hold back" their durability like Dragon Ball characters
C) I've never seen Greg say the Karda Nui Makuta were nerfed

1. The Makuta needed the Toa Nuva alive to activate the Codrex, something Teridax needed for his plan to work. They kind of let them win.

2. They do. For example, Brutaka was able to defeat six Toa at once with a single attack, but in another universe, Brutaka was killed in an ambush by a single Toa who took him behind his back.

3. Greg F said it in a Q&A. Can't find the link though.

 

[Lonkitt]

1. The Makuta needed the Toa Nuva alive to activate the Codrex, something Teridax needed for his plan to work. They kind of let them win.

2. They do. For example, Brutaka was able to defeat six Toa at once with a single attack, but in another universe, Brutaka was killed in an ambush by a single Toa who took him behind his back.

3. Greg F said it in a Q&A. Can't find the link though.

1. They clearly weren't holding back against them. With the exception of Krika, they were all blatantly trying to kill the Toa. Also thats just for Kadra Nui. The Barraki sure as hell had no reasons to hold back

2. Thats not in any way, shape, or form proof that Bionicle characters can hold back durability. That is clearly an example of one Toa being much stronger than others. This is pretty cut and dry scaling

3. Gonna need the scan if I'm gonna take your word

 

[Lonkitt]

Honestly, I think Bionicle scaling on the wiki is being primarily held back by the belief that the Toa Nuva are like, the peak of what a Toa can reach when we have very clear examples of other Toa performing stronger feats. Its really weird to believe the Adaptive Armour is no stronger than the previous Toa Nuva forms when it clearly is

 

[Promestein]

I'd be fine with scaling up Adaptive Armor at least. I don't think the pages go by the ironclad idea that the Nuva are the strongest Toa and nothing can scale above, considering there's already Toa that scale above them on the wiki. Figure out the details yourselves

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Bionicle is cool

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Shouldn’t Ignika be High 5-A, possibly 4-C for reviving Mata Nui?

 

[Elizio33]

Shouldn’t Ignika be High 5-A, possibly 4-C for reviving Mata Nui?

High 5-A, Yes. The Ignika not only revived Mata Nui (GSR) but also restored Spherus Magna. 4-C is exclusive to the GSP and PR.

 

[Elizio33]

One question since GSP Makuta can apparently destroy a universe overtime according to his own claims and those of the author, shouldn't he be "High 5-A, possibly 4-C, up to 3-A" ???

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

High 5-A, Yes. The Ignika not only revived Mata Nui (GSR) but also restored Spherus Magna. 4-C is exclusive to the GSP and PR.

Should the same apply to Vahi too?

 

[Elizio33]

Should the same apply to Vahi too?

Yes. Ignika, Vahi and Mask of Creation

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Yes. Ignika, Vahi and Mask of Creation

Is a CRT necessary for this though?

 

[Elizio33]

Is a CRT necessary for this though?

Yes

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Yes

An Upgrade for Ignika, Vahi, and Mask of Creation - Bionicle

Currently, we place these Masks at 5-B because they can destroy the Matoran Universe which is this size, however the Matoran Universe is that Great Spirit Robot which has rather explicit High 5-A feats, and Ignika was what helped to restore Spherus Magna and revive Mata Nui. The other masks...

vsbattles.com

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Are the Great Beings really good from a writing perspective? I just can't help but think that the Great Beings take a massive dump on the original mythology of Bionicle. It was originally rather simple, Mata Nui is "God", Makuta is the "Devil", the Toa fight to defeat the Makuta, the end. That's basically how it was up until Ignika was used to revive Mata Nui. With the Great Beings, it all makes the religion/mytholgy that the Matoran and Toa believed in pointless, if Mata Nui isn't "God", Makuta isn't the "Devil", and everything was created by some random losers who are no basically different from the Toa and Matoran, then what does anything mean for the Toa, Turaga, Matoran, or Mata Nui?

 

[Elizio33]

Are the Great Beings really good from a writing perspective? I just can't help but think that the Great Beings take a massive dump on the original mythology of Bionicle. It was originally rather simple, Mata Nui is "God", Makuta is the "Devil", the Toa fight to defeat the Makuta, the end. That's basically how it was up until Ignika was used to revive Mata Nui. With the Great Beings, it all makes the religion/mytholgy that the Matoran and Toa believed in pointless, if Mata Nui isn't "God", Makuta isn't the "Devil", and everything was created by some random losers who are no basically different from the Toa and Matoran, then what does anything mean for the Toa, Turaga, Matoran, or Mata Nui?

The Matoran are the working who (unknowingly) ensure the good working of the GSR, Turaga were the guides for the Matoran, Toa acted like the robot's white blood cells. The Makuta, Rahi and Rahkshi were viruses.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

The Matoran are the working who (unknowingly) ensure the good working of the GSR, Turaga were the guides for the Matoran, Toa acted like the robot's white blood cells. The Makuta, Rahi and Rahkshi were viruses.

True, but did we need to know who created the GSR?

 

[Elizio33]

True, but did we need to know who created the GSR?

Yes. What was really unnecessary was for the author to reveal the nature of the great beings, which completely ruined the whole mystery behind them.