Bill Cipher very specifically does not have dimensional travel

[The_Smashor]

Alright, so I just watched Gravity Falls. It's a really good show. But also, due to having seen it, I now know there is a critical problem with our Bill Cipher profile.

Our profile claims that Bill Cipher has dimensional travel, and that him having this is the reason the "Threat to the Multiverse" statement isn't 2-A. But, there is one major issue with this.

It is literally plot critical that Bill Cipher does not have dimensional travel.

He tricks Stanford to build a portal for him to get into his universe because he literally lacks the ability to travel across dimensions without it.

He tricks Mabel into giving him the interdimensional rift so he can destroy the seal, so he can enter Dimension 46'\, because that rift being unsealed is literally the only way he can leave his own dimension.

The only reason Bill Cipher does what he does for 99% of the series is because he very specifically lacks the ability to travel to different universes on his own.

Hell, even in his physical form, if he really had dimensional travel, he could just travel to another universe instead of needing to torture Stanford to learn how to get past Gravity Falls' law of weirdness magnetism.

As such, Dimensional Travel and Portal Creation should be removed from Bill's profile, and his AP should be returned to 2-A, or at the very least the reasoning for him not being 2-A needs to be changed drastically.

And before anyone brings up the Shacktron fight:

1. Bill's durability may not be necessarily comparable to his AP
2. Bill may be shown having lower durability than he should realistically have due to his ability to regenerate, which is a very common issue in fiction (See beings like Majin Buu)
3. Frankly, Bill being damaged by the Shacktron at Small Town level isn't significantly weirder than Bill being damaged by the Shacktron at Multiverse level+, considering the hand that damaged him was just using a Wall Level T-Rex.
4. The Shacktron's barrier is specifically against weirdness like Bill, and required very specific spells to put up. Saying Bill isn't Multiversal just because he couldn't break that barrier is like saying that Dio doesn't have regeneration because Hamon can kill him. It's exploiting a specific weakness of Bill's, it's hardly an anti-feat. Bill effortlessly defeated the Shacktron once he managed to find a part of it not protected by the barrier.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Being a threat to the multiverse is not enough to warrant a 2-A tier.

 

[The_Smashor]

Being a threat to the multiverse is not enough to warrant a 2-A tier.

Alright, but our current reasoning is still ass and needs to be changed.

And again, due to him very specifically lacking dimensional travel, he'd need 2-C or higher AP to even affect other universes.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Wasn't that before he got his dimensional makeover?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

@Eficiente

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Alright, but our current reasoning is still ass and needs to be changed.

And again, due to him very specifically lacking dimensional travel, he'd need 2-C or higher AP to even affect other universes.

You don’t need AP, youd need range.

 

[The_Smashor]

Wasn't that before he got his dimensional makeover?

He shows no signs of gaining dimensional travel after that, and if he had it he could probably escape from Gravity Falls' law of weirdness magnetism.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Also yeah posing a threat to a place doesn’t equate to being able to destroy that place in one shot. There are multiple ways to pose a threat.

 

[The_Smashor]

Also yeah posing a threat to a place doesn’t equate to being able to destroy that place in one shot. There are multiple ways to pose a threat.

This is true, but that doesn't change the fact our current reasoning is ass.

 

[The_Smashor]

Bill noted he would "Liberate" the dimension like he liberated his home dimension, which was specifically destroyed.

While Bill could be lying about that, at the same time, it's not like Bill is inherently untrustworthy. Sure, he's stated he lies in the AMA, but this is to get an angle. To get an advantage. An edge on the people he needs to manipulate. Hell, from certain points of view, he's never technically lied.

When Bill said he wanted to "Liberate" the universe, he was trying to get Stanford to his side. Blatantly saying you're going to destroy the universe was far from a useful lie to get Stanford on his side, and as such, there's solid reason to believe Bill was not lying in this instance.

Although it is possible that this destruction would be due to Bill removing the laws of the universe in question, but even then he'd get at the very least 3-A environmental destruction. So what he already has I guess but you get it.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

He shows no signs of gaining dimensional travel after that, and if he had it he could probably escape from Gravity Falls' law of weirdness magnetism.

Not saying he should have dimensional travel but the barrier could very well restrict his power if it can stop him from just teleporting outside then it could very well restrict him from creating portals or travel to anywhere outside the barrier.

 

[The_Smashor]

Not saying he should have dimensional travel but the barrier could very well restrict his power if it can stop him from just teleporting outside then it could very well restrict him from creating portals or travel to anywhere outside the barrier.

True, but at the same time this isn't stated anywhere.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

True, but at the same time this isn't stated anywhere.

Its highly implied the entire show even before he come to Gravity Falls he never actually had any interactions outside of Gravity falls as far as i can remember. He is very much likely stuck in Gravity Falls

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

watching not sure if this requires popcorn or not

 

[The_Smashor]

watching not sure if this requires popcorn or not

It's been pretty tame so far. Honestly, Priority 1 was probably too much given the response. Bill might not be quite as controversial as I thought.

 

[Eficiente]

It is literally plot critical that Bill Cipher does not have dimensional travel.

He tricks Stanford to build a portal for him to get into his universe because he literally lacks the ability to travel across dimensions without it.

He tricks Mabel into giving him the interdimensional rift so he can destroy the seal, so he can enter Dimension 46'\, because that rift being unsealed is literally the only way he can leave his own dimension.

The only reason Bill Cipher does what he does for 99% of the series is because he very specifically lacks the ability to travel to different universes on his own.

This gives me Smash Bracket vibes, which is not all that bad (As in, "you're wrong but I can see how you think this"). This is a weaker Bill, a Bill with "2 dimensions" (Dimensions by the rules of the show), when he got in the universe he got 1 dimension more and became more powerful (as if he could apply his mental stuff in reality, but just with more powers as far as we know). It makes perfect sense that the weaker Bill isn't able to do this. Now, proof that the 3-D Bill can travel across universes? Easy, after destroying the universe with the rip to the Nightmare Realm he was going to pose the same threat to the multiverse, ie at least from what we can claim popping up in other universes and doing much the same. Because what happens if he can't travel across universes; he destroys the universe like that alt. future shows, and then nothing, his threat to the multiverse ends there as if it were a lie.

Hell, even in his physical form, if he really had dimensional travel, he could just travel to another universe instead of needing to torture Stanford to learn how to get past Gravity Falls' law of weirdness magnetism.

The thing doesn't contradict it as there are reasonable views on the matter

• Why would he f*ck up other universe rather than the one he is antagonizing right now? Makes more than enough sense to prioritize one target at a time. In his crazy mind he's also doing something good to the universe.
• The thing limited what he could do, if he can't teleport or create a portal outside then why claim he can teleport or create a portal outside the universe, which can be said to be an even higher range away? He also couldn't do his Law Manip to screw up the universe like he wanted to. The following is stated "The rift is shattered. Bill's world is spilling into ours and every minute his powers grow stronger." But this was before knowing that limitation, it stands to reason that he never got his full power as his world never got fully poured out. It's not that every minute gave him power because time simply passing on its own made him more powerful.

As such, Dimensional Travel and Portal Creation should be removed from Bill's profile

He shouldn't have it in his first key.

and his AP should be returned to 2-A, or at the very least the reasoning for him not being 2-A needs to be changed drastically.

Threat to something=/=The threat is able to destroy 100% of that something. A terrorist may threaten a building and not achieve anything or kill 2 humans inside, threaten a city and only be able to destroy 2 buildings at best, threaten a country and again only be able to destroy 2 buildings at best, and so on. You were up to something with the portal thing but this bit is more basic.

And before anyone brings up the Shacktron fight:

1. Bill's durability may not be necessarily comparable to his AP

It isn't mostly, he has Small Town level via something he did with his fist and up to Multi-Solar System level via growing that big just due to his size.

1. Bill may be shown having lower durability than he should realistically have due to his ability to regenerate, which is a very common issue in fiction (See beings like Majin Buu)

Yeah we don't assume the boom in the universe is something he can take.

1. Frankly, Bill being damaged by the Shacktron at Small Town level isn't significantly weirder than Bill being damaged by the Shacktron at Multiverse level+, considering the hand that damaged him was just using a Wall Level T-Rex.

"isn't significantly weirder" isn't...something. Smaller parts of Shacktron have some BS feats regardless of the materials they're made of, the T-Rex punched Paci-Fire away, helped tossed Zanthar hundreds of meters along the other arm, which is way above Wall level. The scaling is rather simple, Bill did a physical feat, is physically harmed, the thing that harmed him scales.

1. The Shacktron's barrier is specifically against weirdness like Bill, and required very specific spells to put up. Saying Bill isn't Multiversal just because he couldn't break that barrier is like saying that Dio doesn't have regeneration because Hamon can kill him. It's exploiting a specific weakness of Bill's, it's hardly an anti-feat. Bill effortlessly defeated the Shacktron once he managed to find a part of it not protected by the barrier.

Sure thing but it doesn't matter.

 

[The_Smashor]

Now, proof that the 3-D Bill can travel across universes? Easy, after destroying the universe with the rip to the Nightmare Realm he was going to pose the same threat to the multiverse, ie at least from what we can claim popping up in other universes and doing much the same. Because what happens if he can't travel across universes; he destroys the universe like that alt. future shows, and then nothing, his threat to the multiverse ends there as if it were a lie.

There's one massive issue with this.

Stanford, the one making the "Threat to the multiverse" statement, would have zero reason to assume that a Physical Bill could travel to other dimensions, and never notes his ability to do this.

Not to mention, depending on how you interpret things, Bill may not have even known he was destroying the universe. The Rip was technically caused by Stanford's portal, not by Bill himself, and Bill less intended to destroy the universe and more to free it from it's laws. Bill also had a similar lack of foresight when "Liberating" his own universe, which is all but how he got stuck in the Nightmare Realm in the first place.

And, of course, the other logical course with the statement is that he was capable of destroying the entire thing.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

This gives me Smash Bracket vibes, which is not all that bad (As in, "you're wrong but I can see how you think this"). This is a weaker Bill, a Bill with "2 dimensions" (Dimensions by the rules of the show), when he got in the universe he got 1 dimension more and became more powerful (as if he could apply his mental stuff in reality, but just with more powers as far as we know). It makes perfect sense that the weaker Bill isn't able to do this. Now, proof that the 3-D Bill can travel across universes? Easy, after destroying the universe with the rip to the Nightmare Realm he was going to pose the same threat to the multiverse, ie at least from what we can claim popping up in other universes and doing much the same. Because what happens if he can't travel across universes; he destroys the universe like that alt. future shows, and then nothing, his threat to the multiverse ends there as if it were a lie.

As i defended that he might have the ability to just restricted by the barrier I can also say that he might not have it.
Bill can still be a threat to the multiverse by going to other universes using technology made portals like the one Stanford made, considering that he was afraid billy would be in his mind, he could know how to make portals to other universes, something that bill can only have if he goes inside his head.

I think it's too vague and an assumption that he is able to create a portal considering he never did and he could archive it without actually creating one himself.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Considering Owl house and amphibia are part of the same multiverse as gravity falls, there are multiple ways to travel to each universe in amphibia they use the gems that are powered by the guardian of the multiverse he should be more powerful than bill, and in owl house someone made portals between universes it's not yet clear how it was made but it was powered by a titans blood so I think it's not related to bill either.

 

[Eficiente]

There's one massive issue with this.

Stanford, the one making the "Threat to the multiverse" statement, would have zero reason to assume that a Physical Bill could travel to other dimensions, and never notes his ability to do this.

Again, you had something at first, the profile didn't say sh*t, but this is coping, it's not logical at all. So Ford comments on "the threat Cipher posed to the wider multiverse" and that he needed to "save the multiverse from his wrath", yet because he never particularly said anything about him being able to create interdimensional portals, which he can't until having a physical form, and because you assume Ford had 0 reason to assume would have that power, then it must mean that Bill can't deliver on what we do know of him? That's nonsensical. It doesn't matter why Ford would think Bill can do that when he got right many other things (100% of everything iirc) about him in ways we don't know how he knew yet have reasons to see how that came to be.

Not to mention, depending on how you interpret things, Bill may not have even known he was destroying the universe.

Bill maybe didn't know it, but Ford did, he said so. See the issue with that?

The Rip was technically caused by Stanford's portal, not by Bill himself, and Bill less intended to destroy the universe and more to free it from it's laws. Bill also had a similar lack of foresight when "Liberating" his own universe, which is all but how he got stuck in the Nightmare Realm in the first place.

I know that the rift was caused by that, it doesn't mean anything. By that you are literally saying "he didn't show the power, therefore he doesn't have the power" as if the action to show that he didn't use the power as some believe were to also be proof of how he can't use the power. It's not, it's just evidence that he didn't use the power that time. The implications still follow that this being who controls space & time and is a threat to the multiverse can travel the multiverse, you didn't do something that makes this less likely. This is the mentality Smash Bracket felt into, and the wording in his profile already recognizes that about the rift.

• Dimensional Travel =/= Portal Creation, necessarily, on that info alone he could teleport, we don't know how he travels

Yes, "Bill less intended to destroy the universe and more to free it from it's laws", just saying that doesn't mean your point has more weight. If character B knows something about character A in a way we can say it's true, and character A never acts in a way that reestablishes this info again then nothing happens. Character B is still right, character A didn't need to do sh*t.

2D Bill burned his dimension, got trapped in the Nightmare Realm, then conquered it by presumably becoming more powerful, then got a physical form that made him more powerful, but was yet to be at full power as all the Nightmare Realm he had control over wasn't spilled enough in the universe. He got 2 or 3 amps, depending on how you look at it, and this only applies to his 2º/3º amp.

And, of course, the other logical course with the statement is that he was capable of destroying the entire thing.

Playing along with this how does that even work? He wants to rewrite the laws and make chaos until it destroys the universe, he was told that was going to happen, he knew he is liberating (destroying) the universe the same as his home dimension. He's not going to be so angry that the universe got destroyed that he will destroy the multiverse, he will try the same again elsewhere having learned nothing & still having the same motivation he rants about. The multiverse is also not destroyed in that alt. future.

Or maybe you just mean that he can destroy the multiverse but he won't, somehow his sheer power being able to reach it all but not himself. It still makes less sense based on what we know of the character, he's not a "I'm going to destroy everything. That's it." demon, he's a "I hate law & order, I'm gonna f*ck them up, make chaos, evil deeds & rule all, which will destroy the universe as a side effect, but it will be worth it" demon.

Considering Owl house and amphibia are part of the same multiverse as gravity falls

I see that you are new. Per reference, you can't just make a huge claim like that with no evidence, you prove it, then go over things with it as a premise. And that's already assuming nobody will have any issue with it. I happen to know why Owl House and Amphibia may share the same universe, it's pretty weak evidence if it is what I think it is. I think I know what it is that makes you think Amphibia and Gravity Falls share the same multiverse, the evidence is pretty weak iirc too and can be dismissed as a fun ref due to being potentially contradictory to GF lore.

The comment also assumes that the GF things can't stand on its own & need stuff from other franchises that were made way later, share a multiverse as if it were the most natural thing rather than a technicality (Even assuming they do) and that Bill even knows about them. That has at least 2 ladders of crazy, it's like something you would see in an average ep of Game Theory.

-------

I propose the following in Bill's second key:

"Dimensional Travel & Portal Creation (After being trapped in the Nightmare Realm and an outside source created a small rift into that dimension from the main universe, leaving that rift unsealed causes it to grow over time as the Nightmare Realm spills into the universe over time, making the rip/portal bigger. This is either something the Nightmare Realm naturally causes or Bill pushes with his powers, as this effect causes him to grow stronger over time as the rip grows & Time Baby referred to it as his rip<ref>Weirdmageddon 1: Xpcveaoqfoxso</ref>. Should everything have gone accordingly, Bill's rip would have destroyed the universe, yet the fact that he poses a threat to the multiverse implies he wouldn't have been trapped in the aftermath without being able to antagonize other dimensions. After Weirdmageddon, side effects of Bill's weird magic in the Gravity Falls city caused random portals/multidimensional rips to be opened there into the multivese or the Nightmare Realm<ref>Gravity Falls: Lost Legends</ref><ref>We can attribute this to Bill's powers rather than another natural effect of the Nightmare Realm as part of the side effect included phones glitching with images of Bill.</ref>. Per reference, before this Bill's powers grew stronger every minute because the Nightmare Realm was spilling into the universe, making more notable how this portals are open after Bill got destroyed & all the Nightmare Realm was banished from the universe. Although the latter two or three displays prove Dimensional Travel & Portal Creation, note that the mechanics are technically unclear & up to interpretation; At best, Bill may simply be able to open portals anywhere he specifically wants in the multiverse, or at worst, need to wait his magic to randomly open a multidimensional rip into a random dimension, lacking the ability to trigger the ability at will or choose the location; The latter take may be supported by the Bill Cipher zodiac [See Note 2 below])"

"Note 2: The Bill Cipher zodiac is a prophecy that gives certain people the power to defeat Bill by visually banishing him back into the Nightmare Realm as he deconstructs a bit, which may or may not follow by him decontructing entirely in a way that kills him, hence he is "vanquished"/"defeated", the fact that this is a "threat to [his] power" may or may not also imply to return him into lacking a physical form. The prophecy was either wrong as it never came to be, simply failed, or at best it can be assumed that it will take effect in the future after Bill's return. Either way, should Bill survive it with his physical form, and should he have the ability to create portals at will anywhere, he could easily come back to the same city, cheapening the prophecy, which is assuming that failed prophecy is that solid, implying he doesn't have that ability. Should Bill survive with his physical form or without it, and lack the ability to create portals at will anywhere, it's proven that portals begin to open randomly to the point where people can cross from the Nightmare Realm to the Gravity Falls city, something Bill could have used to return to return to power, which also cheapens the prophecy, but is at least an unpredictable event that the prophecy didn't need to account for. Although this is in turn assuming that the power of the prophecy will leave as much side effects of Bill's powers on Gravity Falls as Bill's death did, rather than none at all, which is also possible. Analyze the proposed variables carefully, any path is allowed to be used."

Needless to say, everything up to interpretation is reasonable for people to take an interpretation given, not some BS that I just say it's up to interpretation because it was unthought with no standards. Neither can we stick to 1 interpretation when others are just as or reasonably valid.

 

[The_Smashor]

I see that you are new. Per reference, you can't just make a huge claim like that with no evidence, you prove it, then go over things with it as a premise.

New? Ef, I've been here almost as long as you and you know it. I honestly thought this was pretty much common knowledge, but seeing it isn't, I'll go over the lion's share.

Here's a character who's a blatant Gravity Falls reference noting, well, you can watch the clip. I don't wanna type all that.


Here's Bill on a board showing various demons in The Owl House (Red circle added for clarification since I didn't spot him on my first watch)

Here's a depiction of Bill in the same book that taught Marcy about The Music Box, which proved to be very much real

Here's a news article referencing Anne in The Owl House just in case a green sticky note isn't enough evidence of a connected multiverse

A Wanted Poster with what appears to be Eda from The Owl House appears in Gravity Falls: Lost Legends, the story this poster appears in being written by Dana Terrance, the creator of The Owl House

It's hard to see, but the Boiling Isles are referenced in a page of Journal 1 in the same comic

Not to mention, Amphibia and Gravity Falls are both created by Alex Hirsch, Who's also a creative consultant on The Owl House.

I have more, but I think this should be more than enough.

 

[Duragoji123]

Interested to see where this goes. Following

 

[The_Smashor]

New? Ef, I've been here almost as long as you and you know it. I honestly thought this was pretty much common knowledge, but seeing it isn't, I'll go over the lion's share.

I just realized he was talking to someone else entirely. Woops.

 

[Eficiente]

I honestly thought this was pretty much common knowledge

Just a pause there, it's a GF thread, not seeing the other shows is expectable.

Here's a character who's a blatant Gravity Falls reference noting, well, you can watch the clip. I don't wanna type all that.

I remember seeing that once, doesn't mean it's the same multiverse per say, it can also be a fun, meaningless ref. You may hear me say that a lot, 'cause it happens a lot, cartoon shows and movies do this all the time, ever hear the BS Pixar theory? And have you really never seen classic shows in Cartoon Network and saw refs like this? Claiming they share the same multiverse because of it is some post-"I got into Vs Debates" thing, if you know what I mean.

To be fair, the quoted link is far more solid as it implies that it does exist in another universe. But I mean more solid as in, within degrees of being wrong going up to being vague.

Here's Bill on a board showing various demons in The Owl House (Red circle added for clarification since I didn't spot him on my first watch)

That barely looks like Bill, the logical take it's that it's just a fun, meaningless ref that they drew it that way. This is not worth using as supporting evidence.

Here's a depiction of Bill in the same book that taught Marcy about The Music Box, which proved to be very much real

A fun ref, but not meaningless, something looking like Bill must exist there. It doesn't need to be the same evil character, it could be anything as long as it looks like the Bill we know. Alternatively, that multiverse has its own version and legends of Bill. Alternatively, they do share a multiverse.

Here's a news article referencing Anne in The Owl House just in case a green sticky note isn't enough evidence of a connected multiverse

They could take place in the same universe just as they could have their own version of her.

A Wanted Poster with what appears to be Eda from The Owl House appears in Gravity Falls: Lost Legends, the story this poster appears in being written by Dana Terrance, the creator of The Owl House

It's hard to see, but the Boiling Isles are referenced in a page of Journal 1 in the same comic

They may have their own version of it as a fun ref, I'm pretty sure the Eda we know doesn't have a key to enter this other dimension as she only travels via a special door into the "Human Realm" of her verse. She doesn't have more resources than that for Dimensional Travel.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I see that you are new. Per reference, you can't just make a huge claim like that with no evidence, you prove it, then go over things with it as a premise. And that's already assuming nobody will have any issue with it. I happen to know why Owl House and Amphibia may share the same universe, it's pretty weak evidence if it is what I think it is. I think I know what it is that makes you think Amphibia and Gravity Falls share the same multiverse, the evidence is pretty weak iirc too and can be dismissed as a fun ref due to being potentially contradictory to GF lore.

The comment also assumes that the GF things can't stand on its own & need stuff from other franchises that were made way later, share a multiverse as if it were the most natural thing rather than a technicality (Even assuming they do) and that Bill even knows about them. That has at least 2 ladders of crazy, it's like something you would see in an average ep of Game Theory.

Im new yes, and yes i also assumed it was common knowledge. The arguments on Gravity fall relation with Owl house and Amphibia is not the best but between Owl house and Amphibia its confirmed by now Disney even made a crossover small episode that its on Disney official youtube Channel where Anne from Amphibia is teleported to the boiling islands, and there is even in an amphibia episode where they openned a portal to another universe but they didnt got the right universe multiple times one of those was boilling islands.
As for Gravity falls there are the multiple references already mentioned above and Dana terrance wrote part of the storybord for gravity falls and she is also the creater of owl house.

I mentioned this because there shows have multiple ways o ftravel between dimensions and universes its not even the main point here, like i said even if those shows werent connected my point still stands Bill didnt shown any kind of power that enables him to transport to another universes he could be a threat to them because Standford could make a portal to another universes which obviosly doesnt scale to Bill.

At no point did i said that Gravity falls depends on the other 2 shows, its his own show its like you saying that the recent introduced Marvel universes are not part of MArvel multiverse because they were introduced much later, which is crazy

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Your argument is very very weak basically you are assuming that just because Bill was getting stronger he was gonna get a new power he never shown before that makes no sense its like saying Naruto got an amp in Baryon mode and now he can turn people in ashes with his mind its completely unrelated. Getting stronger doesnt necessarily mean he is gonna get new powers he might just be talking about the powers he already had becoming stronger. So unless you can actually prove that Bill has portal creation or dimensional travel before his amp you are getting nowhere

 

[Eficiente]

The arguments on Gravity fall relation with Owl house and Amphibia is not the best but between Owl house and Amphibia its confirmed by now Disney even made a crossover small episode that its on Disney official youtube Channel where Anne from Amphibia is teleported to the boiling islands

Teleported how, can you confirm it was within the same multiverse? Also how is that canon if it's in youtube?

and there is even in an amphibia episode where they openned a portal to another universe but they didnt got the right universe multiple times one of those was boilling islands.

That's pretty good.

As for Gravity falls there are the multiple references already mentioned above

You say that below the comment that covers what I think of it.

and Dana terrance wrote part of the storybord for gravity falls and she is also the creater of owl house.

I hope things like this aren't used as points or supporting points and are known as the side things that need to be said.

I mentioned this because there shows have multiple ways o ftravel between dimensions and universes

(I imagine there was a "," or "." missing at the end of this.) I already replied to this.

its not even the main point here, like i said even if those shows werent connected my point still stands Bill didnt shown any kind of power that enables him to transport to another universes

(As before.)

If character B knows something about character A in a way we can say it's true, and character A never acts in a way that reestablishes this info again then nothing happens. Character B is still right, character A didn't need to do sh*t.

Why do you even start with a point that is meaningless? Why do you use a point like that? I mean it literally, you do nothing by saying how he never showed the power when the second display he showed is already recognized to be him not using that power on screen and the first display is already recognized as him not having started the use of what happened. You don't counter anything or stand on anything.

he could be a threat to them because Standford could make a portal to another universes which obviosly doesnt scale to Bill.

That is objectively wrong as he was going to destroy the universe and remain a threat to the multiverse after that, w/o Ford being able to do that. A very simple assumption follows.

He also annoyed people for ages to try to make that portal and never got anything, only Ford could do it and his arrival was prosthetized in that universe. He didn't have plans for other universes for others to build that and it's implied that alt. Fords would have their own alt. Bills for our Bill to not be able to mess with.

At no point did i said that Gravity falls depends on the other 2 shows, its his own show its like you saying that the recent introduced Marvel universes are not part of MArvel multiverse because they were introduced much later, which is crazy

You had it as a point worth bringing up on the topic of Bill & Dimensional Travel, I went over it as if it were a serious proposal. Idk what you say in the last part.

Your argument is very very weak basically you are assuming that just because Bill was getting stronger he was gonna get a new power

(I imagine there was a "," or "." missing at the end of this.) Not necessarily.

he never shown before that makes no sense its like saying Naruto got an amp in Baryon mode and now he can turn people in ashes with his mind its completely unrelated. Getting stronger doesnt necessarily mean he is gonna get new powers he might just be talking about the powers he already had becoming stronger. So unless you can actually prove that Bill has portal creation or dimensional travel before his amp you are getting nowhere

No, let's look at what I said again:

Hell, even in his physical form, if he really had dimensional travel, he could just travel to another universe instead of needing to torture Stanford to learn how to get past Gravity Falls' law of weirdness magnetism.

"The thing doesn't contradict it as there are reasonable views on the matter

• Why would he f*ck up other universe rather than the one he is antagonizing right now? Makes more than enough sense to prioritize one target at a time. In his crazy mind he's also doing something good to the universe.
• The thing limited what he could do, if he can't teleport or create a portal outside then why claim he can teleport or create a portal outside the universe, which can be said to be an even higher range away? He also couldn't do his Law Manip to screw up the universe like he wanted to. The following is stated "The rift is shattered. Bill's world is spilling into ours and every minute his powers grow stronger." But this was before knowing that limitation, it stands to reason that he never got his full power as his world never got fully poured out. It's not that every minute gave him power because time simply passing on its own made him more powerful."

1) The more the Nightmare Realm spills into the universe the stronger Bill gets, which is paused due to the barrier. 2) W/o the barrior, Bill can at last rewrite the laws of the universe, grow planet-sized, etc. 3) Bill cannot teleport or create a portal outside the barrior due to being a limit to up to where his powers reach. 4) As such, it makes no sense that he would be able to create a portal into another dimension, which in terms of range can be seen as reaching outside the universe (Town wise mobility<Interdimensional wise mobility, it's a pretty reasonable thing to interpret). 5) Bill doesn't necessarily want to try this anyway, which is another point that removes clarity as he might even be able to use portals into other dimensions but not try it due to focusing on that universe.

Let's look at what you say again.

basically you are assuming that just because Bill was getting stronger he was gonna get a new power he never shown before that makes no sense its like saying Naruto got an amp in Baryon mode and now he can turn people in ashes with his mind its completely unrelated. Getting stronger doesnt necessarily mean he is gonna get new powers he might just be talking about the powers he already had becoming stronger. So unless you can actually prove that Bill has portal creation or dimensional travel before his amp you are getting nowhere

If you were to reply to someone saying "Bill wasn't strong enough, therefore that's why he has the powers" then that would be a good reply. It's not a good reply, it didn't understand what I claimed in more than 1 way and replied to that lack of understanding as if that was the argument.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Teleported how, can you confirm it was within the same multiverse? Also how is that canon if it's in youtube?

Thats just another point of the connection between universes. I think i was clear when i said DISNEY YOUTUBE OFFICIAL CHANNEL

They even used the same box wuth the gems that belong to the guardian which obviously only has control for his own multiverse.

I hope things like this aren't used as points or supporting points and are known as the side things that need to be said.

It's to show that she knew what she was doing when she did those references.

Why do you even start with a point that is meaningless? Why do you use a point like that? I mean it literally, you do nothing by saying how he never showed the power when the second display he showed is already recognized to be him not using that power on screen and the first display is already recognized as him not having started the use of what happened. You don't counter anything or stand on anything.

First Bill was never stated to be able to travel between universes you assumed that over him being a threat to the multiverse. Second if you saw Doctor Strange multiverse of madness and Spiderman no way home you would have seen how they can affect other universes without being able to travel between them. Wanda can use dream walk and reality manipulation to affect other multiverses and Strange used the runes to affect the multiverse even thou its stated that only America Chavez cn travel between universes. This to say that Bill could be a threat to the multiverse without being able to travel to other universes.

That is objectively wrong as he was going to destroy the universe and remain a threat to the multiverse after that, w/o Ford being able to do that. A very simple assumption follows.

How do you know he was a threat to the multiverse even without Ford? The entire show he wanted to get on his head falling everytime he even avoided killing him at all times. And simple assumption? No its a very weird assumption you made there for all the reasons i gave.

He also annoyed people for ages to try to make that portal and never got anything, only Ford could do it and his arrival was prosthetized in that universe. He didn't have plans for other universes for others to build that and it's implied that alt. Fords would have their own alt. Bills for our Bill to not be able to mess with.

Ford didnt even made the portal alone to begin with. I have no ideia why you want to use him not having plans for other universes as an argument that doesnt help you at all.

You had it as a point worth bringing up on the topic of Bill & Dimensional Travel, I went over it as if it were a serious proposal. Idk what you say in the last part.

Gravity falls is a show on its own the other shows being part of its multiverse doesnt change in nothing gravity falls show, but for no reason you made up a weird assumption that the shows being connected changes gravity falls to the point where the shows depend on each other, they dont being connected is an insignificant part of the shows itself we all love to see the references made to each show. Being in the same multiverse doesnt even mean they have to connect to each other in plot the same way some marvel universes are destroyed before they can even affect the main universe.

(I imagine there was a "," or "." missing at the end of this.) Not necessarily.

Not necessarily? Its exacly what you doing.

No, let's look at what I said again:

"The thing doesn't contradict it as there are reasonable views on the matter

• Why would he f*ck up other universe rather than the one he is antagonizing right now? Makes more than enough sense to prioritize one target at a time. In his crazy mind he's also doing something good to the universe.
• The thing limited what he could do, if he can't teleport or create a portal outside then why claim he can teleport or create a portal outside the universe, which can be said to be an even higher range away? He also couldn't do his Law Manip to screw up the universe like he wanted to. The following is stated "The rift is shattered. Bill's world is spilling into ours and every minute his powers grow stronger." But this was before knowing that limitation, it stands to reason that he never got his full power as his world never got fully poured out. It's not that every minute gave him power because time simply passing on its own made him more powerful."

If he could just escape by going to any of the universes he could go any other wolrd where the barriers dont exist and then using "his portal creation" to target gravity falls universe.
He was never mentioned as being able to teleport/create portals to other universes, he can teleport inside the barrier which is a range of teleportation that as far as we know can only be used to teleport inside the same planet and never show any kind of range related to other universes.

1) The more the Nightmare Realm spills into the universe the stronger Bill gets, which is paused due to the barrier. 2) W/o the barrior, Bill can at last rewrite the laws of the universe, grow planet-sized, etc. 3) Bill cannot teleport or create a portal outside the barrior due to being a limit to up to where his powers reach. 4) As such, it makes no sense that he would be able to create a portal into another dimension, which in terms of range can be seen as reaching outside the universe (Town wise mobility<Interdimensional wise mobility, it's a pretty reasonable thing to interpret). 5) Bill doesn't necessarily want to try this anyway, which is another point that removes clarity as he might even be able to use portals into other dimensions but not try it due to focusing on that universe.

Show me where its stated his power can reach other universes. Being a threat to the multiverse doesnt mean you can destroy it and it doesnt mean you can teleport or create portals to them just means you have a way of affecting them or that you could potencially cause harm to the multiverse if you had the opportonity to get there.

If you were to reply to someone saying "Bill wasn't strong enough, therefore that's why he has the powers" then that would be a good reply. It's not a good reply, it didn't understand what I claimed in more than 1 way and replied to that lack of understanding as if that was the argument.

I never said Bill wasnt strong enough i said he never had that power and never shown any signs he could do it, there are characters that are basically normal humans but have the ability to travel to other universes then there are beings has powerful has gods that cant, its not about power levels its about having or not having an ability.

 

[Eficiente]

Thats just another point of the connection between universes. I think i was clear when i said DISNEY YOUTUBE OFFICIAL CHANNEL

They even used the same box wuth the gems that belong to the guardian which obviously only has control for his own multiverse.

Don't think that has more merit because it's in the "OFFICIAL CHANNEL", that would be like not knowing that a same channel can't make non-canon crossovers between 2 verses it owns, or an official anything can't make non-canon crossovers, because if it's not official it's fanmade. The fact that it's on youtube of all things is what makes it dubious.

It would be in the same multiverse if it's canon then.

It's to show that she knew what she was doing when she did those references.

I'm ok with that.

First Bill was never stated to be able to travel between universes you assumed that over him being a threat to the multiverse.

I now have 2 comments that imply you didn't read the last part of this comment I made. Looking back at the journal 3 things are even worst for the argument that he can't travel the multivere as the Nightmare Realm is naturally a gateway to other worlds, with dimensional wormholes that people fell into, Ford was able to use one to escape. If you are thinking "Hey, why can't Bill use this to go into a world and gain a physical form?", easy, he can only pass his 2d self as he is 2d w/o a physical form, somehow a wormhole isn't the same as a rip/rift into the Nightmare Realm, ig the latter is more aggressive in a way that allows Bill to push his dimension forward. The 2 times Ford was in the Nightmare Realm everything was just illusions/happening in his mind. Regardless, a 3d Bill lacks any reason at all to not be able to enter this wornholes. Needless to say this is the 4º thing that f*cks up the idea of this thread.

I would think the fact that there is no statement saying "Bill has portal creation" was said enough times, I hope we can get over it.

Second if you saw Doctor Strange multiverse of madness and Spiderman no way home you would have seen how they can affect other universes without being able to travel between them. Wanda can use dream walk and reality manipulation to affect other multiverses and Strange used the runes to affect the multiverse even thou its stated that only America Chavez cn travel between universes. This to say that Bill could be a threat to the multiverse without being able to travel to other universes.

The structure from your second sentence onwards is worth criticizing, you really may want to say your argument first, and then cite an example, as an advice. I'm well aware it takes a minuscule effort to be a threat. As I looked back at journal 3 I noticed that the 2º statement we use refers to nothing (his ability to torment others in his home dimension as they come via wormholes and possess others in other universes, Ford didn't know anything more about Bill yet), while the 1º statement is vague.

How do you know he was a threat to the multiverse even without Ford? The entire show he wanted to get on his head falling everytime he even avoided killing him at all times. And simple assumption? No its a very weird assumption you made there for all the reasons i gave.

It's stated to be undertood his threat to the multiverse, side effects of his powers create inderdimensional portals, his dimension has wormholes to the multiverse, he can further rip arift from the universe to his dimension (or his dimension does it), w/o having been the one who started it (which on its own may or may not mean he can start it). The reason why he screws with others is to end up in a new dimension, he can't do that with others, he tried that on Earth since forever and always failed as nobody was smart enough. Imagine if he were to destroy the universe and be trapped while only be able to possess others like before, he's kinda f*cked, he starts from 0 and people may as well need to make new prophecies for his next arrival, his arrival before was worth 1 universe being destroyed only. His threat to the multiverse goes back to giving people nightmares & possessing them and random beings in the multiverse falling into wormholes into his dimension (That was said once), rather than his main goals we were told over and over (Invade dimensions, taking them over & rule them, rewrite their laws, and destroy them). Giving people nightmares & possessing them was the get the latter main goals.

Ford didnt even made the portal alone to begin with. I have no ideia why you want to use him not having plans for other universes as an argument that doesnt help you at all.

You didn't understand. You said "he could be a threat to them because Standford could make a portal to another universes which obviosly doesnt scale to Bill."

I replied "That is objectively wrong as he was going to destroy the universe and remain a threat to the multiverse after that, w/o Ford being able to do that. A very simple assumption follows.

He also annoyed people for ages to try to make that portal and never got anything, only Ford could do it and his arrival was prosthetized in that universe. He didn't have plans for other universes for others to build that and it's implied that alt. Fords would have their own alt. Bills for our Bill to not be able to mess with."

You have no Ford with a portal anymore, you have no one to make a portal because of how hard it was even for Ford, what you say is nonsense

• "he could be a threat (to the multiverse) because Standford could make a portal to another universes" ->
• You agree it's hard to make the portal for even Ford alone ->
• You point out "[Bill] not having plans for other universes" ->
• You have no idea why this has anything to do with anything, having not noticed how Bill missed that someone to make a portal to another universes and knowing the difficulty of the task.

Gravity falls is a show on its own the other shows being part of its multiverse doesnt change in nothing gravity falls show, but for no reason you made up a weird assumption that the shows being connected changes gravity falls to the point where the shows depend on each other, they dont being connected is an insignificant part of the shows itself we all love to see the references made to each show. Being in the same multiverse doesnt even mean they have to connect to each other in plot the same way some marvel universes are destroyed before they can even affect the main universe.

doesnt change in nothing gravity falls show

Your comment:

Considering Owl house and amphibia are part of the same multiverse as gravity falls, there are multiple ways to travel to each universe in amphibia they use the gems that are powered by the guardian of the multiverse he should be more powerful than bill, and in owl house someone made portals between universes it's not yet clear how it was made but it was powered by a titans blood so I think it's not related to bill either.

Again, you had it as a point worth bringing up on the topic of Bill & Dimensional Travel, I went over it as if it were a serious proposal the fact that this is something worth considering and how you think it's not related rather than being sure enough this is meaningless to GF to not comment about. It was a pointless comment to make because it changes nothing in GF, as you say, but since you did comment it, it made it worth giving a a serious look at it. That was not a comment worth making if you knew it changes nothing, if you comment a vague idea you invite others to be serious about it.

Not necessarily? Its exacly what you doing.

Quote it all and have all that part underlined, all the parts that are just quote "Bill was getting stronger he was gonna get a new power".

If he could just escape by going to any of the universes he could go any other wolrd where the barriers dont exist and then using "his portal creation" to target gravity falls universe.

Part of what you quote, which you ignore, is

• "Why would he f*ck up other universe rather than the one he is antagonizing right now? Makes more than enough sense to prioritize one target at a time. In his crazy mind he's also doing something good to the universe."

Which says "No he won't necessarily do that", his goal was to destroy that universe, rewrite its laws, rule it, he planned it for thousands of years.

But even if he wanted to, `part of what you quote, which you ignore, is

• "The thing limited what he could do, if he can't teleport or create a portal outside then why claim he can teleport or create a portal outside the universe, which can be said to be an even higher range away? He also couldn't do his Law Manip to screw up the universe like he wanted to. The following is stated "The rift is shattered. Bill's world is spilling into ours and every minute his powers grow stronger." But this was before knowing that limitation, it stands to reason that he never got his full power as his world never got fully poured out. It's not that every minute gave him power because time simply passing on its own made him more powerful."

Which says "he might lack the power at the moment".

But even if he wanted to and had the power to do it himself, he's an idiot for not doing that. Pretty IC. It's not nonsensical, whereas it is to for example ignore the existence of the portals inside his dimension which he can travel to by going into the rip. You could say, "Ah well Bill didn't use those, must be that he can't, hence he didn't do that action". Again, not taking a course of action is not nonsensical. Ignore a mechanic like that via headcanons to make sense out of an odd course of action is nonsensical.

He was never mentioned as being able to teleport/create portals to other universes, he can teleport inside the barrier which is a range of teleportation that as far as we know can only be used to teleport inside the same planet and never show any kind of range related to other universes.

Please get over it.

Show me where its stated his power can reach other universes.

I did.

Being a threat to the multiverse doesnt mean you can destroy it

True.

and it doesnt mean you can teleport or create portals to them just means you have a way of affecting them or that you could potencially cause harm to the multiverse if you had the opportonity to get there.

Yes, and what is his goal in doing that again? Something he can't do anymore after the universe is destroyed.

I never said Bill wasnt strong enough

"If you were to reply to someone saying

" =/= "I said that you said"

there are characters that are basically normal humans but have the ability to travel to other universes then there are beings has powerful has gods that cant, its not about power levels its about having or not having an ability.

"Dimensional Travel & Portal Creation (After being trapped in the Nightmare Realm and an outside source created a small rift into that dimension from the main universe, leaving that rift unsealed causes it to grow over time as the Nightmare Realm spills into the universe over time, making the rip/portal bigger. This is either something the Nightmare Realm naturally causes or Bill pushes with his powers, as this effect causes him to grow stronger over time as the rip grows & Time Baby referred to it as his rip<ref>Weirdmageddon 1: Xpcveaoqfoxso</ref>. Should everything have gone accordingly, Bill's rip would have destroyed the universe, yet the fact that he poses a threat to the multiverse implies he wouldn't have been trapped in the aftermath without being able to antagonize other dimensions. After Weirdmageddon, side effects of Bill's weird magic in the Gravity Falls city caused random portals/multidimensional rips to be opened there into the multivese or the Nightmare Realm<ref>Gravity Falls: Lost Legends</ref><ref>We can attribute this to Bill's powers rather than another natural effect of the Nightmare Realm as part of the side effect included phones glitching with images of Bill.</ref>. Per reference, before this Bill's powers grew stronger every minute because the Nightmare Realm was spilling into the universe, making more notable how this portals are open after Bill got destroyed & all the Nightmare Realm was banished from the universe. Although the latter two or three displays prove Dimensional Travel & Portal Creation, note that the mechanics are technically unclear & up to interpretation; At best, Bill may simply be able to open portals anywhere he specifically wants in the multiverse, or at worst, need to wait his magic to randomly open a multidimensional rip into a random dimension, lacking the ability to trigger the ability at will or choose the location; The latter take may be supported by the Bill Cipher zodiac [See Note 2 below]. The Nightmare Realm is naturally a gateway to other worlds, with dimensional wormholes that beings felt into and with Ford having used one to escape into a new world, starting his travels across the multivese<ref>When he was a 2-D being, Bill could only cast his mind into other dimensions</ref>)"

"Note 2: The Bill Cipher zodiac is a prophecy that gives certain people the power to "vanquish" Bill by visually banishing him back into the Nightmare Realm as he deconstructs a bit, which may or may not follow by him decontructing entirely in a way that kills him, hence he is "defeated". The fact that this is a "threat to [his] power" may or may not also imply to return him into lacking a physical form. It's stated that the cast "have no idea what would have happened if [they] had completed the Zodiac's prophecy". The prophecy was either wrong as it never came to be, simply failed, or at best it can be assumed that it will take effect in the future after Bill's return. In turn, the prophecy will presumably leave as much side effects of Bill's powers on Gravity Falls as Bill's death did, but it's also possible it will do a better job & leave no side effects at all.

Either way, assuming the latter is not the case; Should Bill survive it with his physical form, and should he have the ability to create portals at will anywhere, he could easily come back to the same town, cheapening the prophecy, which is assuming that failed prophecy is that intuitive on how definitive it is, in this case implying Bill doesn't have that ability. Should Bill survive with his physical form or without it, and lack the ability to create portals at will anywhere, it's proven that rips begin to open randomly to the point where people can cross from the Nightmare Realm to the Gravity Falls city, something Bill could have used to return to power, which also cheapens the prophecy, but is at least an unpredictable event that the prophecy didn't need to account for. Analyze the proposed variables carefully, any path is allowed to be used."

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Don't think that has more merit because it's in the "OFFICIAL CHANNEL", that would be like not knowing that a same channel can't make non-canon crossovers between 2 verses it owns, or an official anything can't make non-canon crossovers, because if it's not official it's fanmade. The fact that it's on youtube of all things is what makes it dubious.

It would be in the same multiverse if it's canon then.

We have no reason to not take it as Canon, considering all the other proves and that there is no contradiction to the story nor had any kind of direct statement saying that isn't Canon, I think it's safe to take it as Canon.

I now have 2 comments that imply you didn't read the last part of this comment I made. Looking back at the journal 3 things are even worst for the argument that he can't travel the multivere as the Nightmare Realm is naturally a gateway to other worlds, with dimensional wormholes that people fell into, Ford was able to use one to escape. If you are thinking "Hey, why can't Bill use this to go into a world and gain a physical form?", easy, he can only pass his 2d self as he is 2d w/o a physical form, somehow a wormhole isn't the same as a rip/rift into the Nightmare Realm, ig the latter is more aggressive in a way that allows Bill to push his dimension forward. The 2 times Ford was in the Nightmare Realm everything was just illusions/happening in his mind. Regardless, a 3d Bill lacks any reason at all to not be able to enter this wornholes. Needless to say this is the 4º thing that f*cks up the idea of this thread.

Ok so? The dimension he was has worm wholes nowhere was it stated that Bill made them, if Bill had a 3D body he could use those portals sure the same way that if a portal suddenly opens right in front of my i can travel to another dimension obviously it doesn't scale to me, are we giving Ford dimensional travel for using a portal?

It's stated to be undertood his threat to the multiverse, side effects of his powers create inderdimensional portals, his dimension has wormholes to the multiverse, he can further rip arift from the universe to his dimension (or his dimension does it), w/o having been the one who started it (which on its own may or may not mean he can start it). The reason why he screws with others is to end up in a new dimension, he can't do that with others, he tried that on Earth since forever and always failed as nobody was smart enough. Imagine if he were to destroy the universe and be trapped while only be able to possess others like before, he's kinda f*cked, he starts from 0 and people may as well need to make new prophecies for his next arrival, his arrival before was worth 1 universe being destroyed only. His threat to the multiverse goes back to giving people nightmares & possessing them and random beings in the multiverse falling into wormholes into his dimension (That was said once), rather than his main goals we were told over and over (Invade dimensions, taking them over & rule them, rewrite their laws, and destroy them). Giving people nightmares & possessing them was the get the latter main goals.

It implies he could use his new 3D form and his complete power to possess or mess with the dreams of people in other universes until a portal between those worlds is made, sure if he can use the portals in his dimension to travel it's ok too, but create portals or teleport between universes was never stated as an option.

You didn't understand. You said "he could be a threat to them because Standford could make a portal to another universes which obviosly doesnt scale to Bill."

I replied "That is objectively wrong as he was going to destroy the universe and remain a threat to the multiverse after that, w/o Ford being able to do that. A very simple assumption follows.

You said he was destroying the universe by fusing his dimension with the current universe if he did so he could potentially travel to other universes with the portals that exists i his dimension, that it's understandable.

You have no Ford with a portal anymore, you have no one to make a portal because of how hard it was even for Ford, what you say is nonsense

• "he could be a threat (to the multiverse) because Standford could make a portal to another universes" ->
• You agree it's hard to make the portal for even Ford alone ->
• You point out "[Bill] not having plans for other universes" ->
• You have no idea why this has anything to do with anything, having not noticed how Bill missed that someone to make a portal to another universes and knowing the difficulty of the task.

It's true but considering even Stan could make it with the instructions given I think it's safe to say that Ford has the knowledge to make the portal himself, but he didn't created the portal alone.

Your comment:

Again, you had it as a point worth bringing up on the topic of Bill & Dimensional Travel, I went over it as if it were a serious proposal the fact that this is something worth considering and how you think it's not related rather than being sure enough this is meaningless to GF to not comment about. It was a pointless comment to make because it changes nothing in GF, as you say, but since you did comment it, it made it worth giving a a serious look at it. That was not a comment worth making if you knew it changes nothing, if you comment a vague idea you invite others to be serious about it.

I used as an argument about existing multiple ways to travel between universes without actually having the power to travel between universes, that was my point.

Quote it all and have all that part underlined, all the parts that are just quote "Bill was getting stronger he was gonna get a new power".

Part of what you quote, which you ignore, is

• "Why would he f*ck up other universe rather than the one he is antagonizing right now? Makes more than enough sense to prioritize one target at a time. In his crazy mind he's also doing something good to the universe."

Which says "No he won't necessarily do that", his goal was to destroy that universe, rewrite its laws, rule it, he planned it for thousands of years.

So? If he managed to go to another universe and then travel back to the universe where Ford is he could have his revenge, he is still prioritize his revenge but in a smarter way.

But even if he wanted to, `part of what you quote, which you ignore, is

• "The thing limited what he could do, if he can't teleport or create a portal outside then why claim he can teleport or create a portal outside the universe, which can be said to be an even higher range away? He also couldn't do his Law Manip to screw up the universe like he wanted to. The following is stated "The rift is shattered. Bill's world is spilling into ours and every minute his powers grow stronger." But this was before knowing that limitation, it stands to reason that he never got his full power as his world never got fully poured out. It's not that every minute gave him power because time simply passing on its own made him more powerful."

Which says "he might lack the power at the moment".

But it doesn't say he will have the power to.

But even if he wanted to and had the power to do it himself, he's an idiot for not doing that. Pretty IC. It's not nonsensical, whereas it is to for example ignore the existence of the portals inside his dimension which he can travel to by going into the rip. You could say, "Ah well Bill didn't use those, must be that he can't, hence he didn't do that action". Again, not taking a course of action is not nonsensical. Ignore a mechanic like that via headcanons to make sense out of an odd course of action is nonsensical.

You are making the same assumption by saying he can without any prove he can actually make it based on he was getting stronger.

Yes, and what is his goal in doing that again? Something he can't do anymore after the universe is destroyed.

He is not even actually destroying the universe he is letting his dimension in the gravity falls universe, his plan is probably do the same to all the multiverse, without a universe can he really create a portal in nothing? Even if he can he will be destroying his own dimension which makes no sense.

"If you were to reply to someone saying

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

At best you can agree that he shouldnt have Portal creation and and dimensional travel in his mindscape key since for your own words he can only get it in his physical form, so i think we can agree that at the very least you will have to change that

 

[Eficiente]

We have no reason to not take it as Canon, considering all the other proves and that there is no contradiction to the story nor had any kind of direct statement saying that isn't Canon, I think it's safe to take it as Canon.

Odd standard to follow, when wanting to know if something like a comic or movie is canon it's looked beyond things like "no contradictions" and "it's not said to not be canon". Something like for example Jimmy Timmy Power Hour has the same reasoning yet it isn't seen as canon for the JN show on the lack of any further reasons.

Ok so? The dimension he was has worm wholes nowhere was it stated that Bill made them, if Bill had a 3D body he could use those portals sure the same way that if a portal suddenly opens right in front of my i can travel to another dimension obviously it doesn't scale to me, are we giving Ford dimensional travel for using a portal?

Never said Bill made them, stop assuming things like that. Part of this thread argues that tho, I don't need to quote Smashor claiming that Bill has no means of travel dimensions.

It implies he could use his new 3D form and his complete power to possess or mess with the dreams of people in other universes until a portal between those worlds is made, sure if he can use the portals in his dimension to travel it's ok too, but create portals or teleport between universes was never stated as an option.

It can't imply that as only 2 very exceptional people were able to create that portal since millions of years, we would need to assume that there will be even more people as capable when he failed at that for millions of years until facing Ford.

You said he was destroying the universe by fusing his dimension with the current universe if he did so he could potentially travel to other universes with the portals that exists i his dimension, that it's understandable.

Could be.

It's true but considering even Stan could make it with the instructions given I think it's safe to say that Ford has the knowledge to make the portal himself, but he didn't created the portal alone.

Stan didn't make it, Stan repaired malfunctions on it, following instructions by Ford, and it took him 30 years.

I used as an argument about existing multiple ways to travel between universes without actually having the power to travel between universes, that was my point.

Some of this comments don't follow logic and come off as excuses. As crazy as a verse may be, you can't point out resources/P&A in some other verse to claim that the same could be found in the former verse. That's a basic standard. What we do have in GF is Bill for millions of years having never entered a dimension aside from his home dimension & Nightmare Realm, and only possessing others in the main GF universe and "the real world", only trying useful things to his goals in the former.

So? If he managed to go to another universe and then travel back to the universe where Ford is he could have his revenge, he is still prioritize his revenge but in a smarter way.

2 alternatives: 1) Again he's an idiot, he's not using the resources of his powers in a way that properly benefits him in the best way one can imagine. We kinda already knew he does this, notably he forgot he has precog and that mind-reading ability he was initially stated to spam. Myself I would have time travelled since before the barrier, but I digress, believe it or not it's perfectly valid to not held characters' capabilities accountable for not using their resources in specific, technical ways that once said outloud makes them look stupid. It just means that they were in fact stupid in that aspect of their intelligence, regardless of what the rest of their intelligence may be.

2) Again, he can't at will.

But it doesn't say he will have the power to.

You are making the same assumption by saying he can without any prove he can actually make it based on he was getting stronger.

We went over this so I won't go in circles.

He is not even actually destroying the universe he is letting his dimension in the gravity falls universe

Which will destroy the universe. Is this poetic or something?

his plan is probably do the same to all the multiverse, without a universe can he really create a portal in nothing?

Probably, yes. This isn't like a comic or something where everything just goes white, the universe gets destroyed via an explosion, all things in space get destroyed, space itself isn't destroyed, so I can 100% affirm that yes, if he could before he still can now.

Even if he can he will be destroying his own dimension which makes no sense.

It's only stated that the universe would be destroyed, many times, not his dimension, so that is clearly a headcanon. If anything his dimension is what allows him the power to invade other dimensions, if it's destroyed it's game over for Bill.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Odd standard to follow, when wanting to know if something like a comic or movie is canon it's looked beyond things like "no contradictions" and "it's not said to not be canon". Something like for example Jimmy Timmy Power Hour has the same reasoning yet it isn't seen as canon for the JN show on the lack of any further reasons.

There are many proves that the universes coexist in the same multiverse, including like i said a canon episode showing a portal between Amphibia and Owl house this crossover just backs it up.

Never said Bill made them, stop assuming things like that. Part of this thread argues that tho, I don't need to quote Smashor claiming that Bill has no means of travel dimensions.

You did by assuming he has or will have that power although it was restricted by outside means.

It can't imply that as only 2 very exceptional people were able to create that portal since millions of years, we would need to assume that there will be even more people as capable when he failed at that for millions of years until facing Ford.

Multiverse, if needed he can find Ford's variant in every multiverse and piss them of its actually pretty consistent with Bill to use that kind of tactic as revenge. Bill is supposedly more than 1T years old what are a few millions years to him?

Stan didn't make it, Stan repaired malfunctions on it, following instructions by Ford, and it took him 30 years.

Stan had no actual instructions of how to fix the portal he only had the instructions of how to build it if Stan could understand enough to repair it he could probably build it if he had the resorces

Some of this comments don't follow logic and come off as excuses. As crazy as a verse may be, you can't point out resources/P&A in some other verse to claim that the same could be found in the former verse. That's a basic standard. What we do have in GF is Bill for millions of years having never entered a dimension aside from his home dimension & Nightmare Realm, and only possessing others in the main GF universe and "the real world", only trying useful things to his goals in the former.

Verses that are part of Gravity falls multiverse and we are literally talking about traveling between universes. You said it yourself he is not smart enough to plan attack other universe in search for a way to travel between universes he waited millions of years because he wanted to.

2 alternatives: 1) Again he's an idiot, he's not using the resources of his powers in a way that properly benefits him in the best way one can imagine. We kinda already knew he does this, notably he forgot he has precog and that mind-reading ability he was initially stated to spam. Myself I would have time travelled since before the barrier, but I digress, believe it or not it's perfectly valid to not held characters' capabilities accountable for not using their resources in specific, technical ways that once said outloud makes them look stupid. It just means that they were in fact stupid in that aspect of their intelligence, regardless of what the rest of their intelligence may be.

2) Again, he can't at will.

You are implying that he has or can have the power to create portals but he cant use it at will how does that work?

We went over this so I won't go in circles.

Which will destroy the universe. Is this poetic or something?

Means that the earth itself will yes probably be destroyed but bills dmension will be in its place, and i guess the portals that exist in that dimension also will show up in the universe that it mixes with.

Probably, yes. This isn't like a comic or something where everything just goes white, the universe gets destroyed via an explosion, all things in space get destroyed, space itself isn't destroyed, so I can 100% affirm that yes, if he could before he still can now.

Im not even sure if destroy only the celestial bodies of a universe is even a universal feat anyways but im not going to argue about it.

It's only stated that the universe would be destroyed, many times, not his dimension, so that is clearly a headcanon. If anything his dimension is what allows him the power to invade other dimensions, if it's destroyed it's game over for Bill.

If Bills dimension is in fact still there and not destroyed that only helps me since the argument that there is no way to travel to another universe aside creating portals is available falls apart since the whole point that you mentioned yourself is that bills dimention has a way to travel between worlds which means that either ways he will have a way to threaten the universe without himself having the power to create portals.

 

[Eficiente]

There are many proves that the universes coexist in the same multiverse, including like i said a canon episode showing a portal between Amphibia and Owl house this crossover just backs it up.

Already recognized.

You did by assuming he has or will have that power although it was restricted by outside means.

"Have that power" how? Have access to that power, yes. Be the one who made the wormholes, no.

Multiverse, if needed he can find Ford's variant in every multiverse and piss them of its actually pretty consistent with Bill to use that kind of tactic as revenge. Bill is supposedly more than 1T years old what are a few millions years to him?

Can't, that's 2 massive assumptions on the GF worldbuildings, even assuming Bill knows them. 1) Other Fords already have other Bills, to at best do the same to them our Bill did to our Ford, if their Ford is even useful. You can't assume Bill would do anything there as he would be messing with areas where he has alt. selves, which we don't know if he can or would, it's a massive jump. 2) Even if he could, if those Fords aren't useful (like being babies) then their Bills already fooled them, from there you can't assume Bill can fool them again, nor can you say "it's a multiverse, there has to be Fords not fooled by Bill that our Bill can use", that's a headcanon on how the mechanics work.

Stan had no actual instructions of how to fix the portal he only had the instructions of how to build it if Stan could understand enough to repair it he could probably build it if he had the resorces

Ok, not actual instructions, but there isn't a meaningful line in this case between knowing how to fix something and having something needing to be fixed & knowing how it looks & works when fixed. Stan could only do this because of the info Ford left.

Verses that are part of Gravity falls multiverse and we are literally talking about traveling between universes. You said it yourself he is not smart enough to plan attack other universe in search for a way to travel between universes he waited millions of years because he wanted to.

Your position is unclear.

You are implying that he has or can have the power to create portals but he cant use it at will how does that work?

See how side effects of his powers randomly open interdimensional rips? All the chaos he creates can lead to that happening on its own, which is not the same as him doing it at will/on command. We know this because it happened, while he was dead, while the Nightmare Realm was gone, while all the actions Bill did were reverted like even the things he destroyed being recreated.

Means that the earth itself will yes probably be destroyed but bills dmension will be in its place, and i guess the portals that exist in that dimension also will show up in the universe that it mixes with.

But it's stated that he destroyed the universe in an alt. future, and it's stated many times that he would destroy reality/the world/the universe.

Im not even sure if destroy only the celestial bodies of a universe is even a universal feat anyways but im not going to argue about it.

See the Tiering System page, destroy all matter in the universe is Universe level. Destroy the timeline is Universe level+. Bill did the former.

If Bills dimension is in fact still there and not destroyed that only helps me since the argument that there is no way to travel to another universe aside creating portals is available falls apart since the whole point that you mentioned yourself is that bills dimention has a way to travel between worlds which means that either ways he will have a way to threaten the universe without himself having the power to create portals.

Yeah, he could do that. Or he could make a rip himself because of this other 2 feats;

"After being trapped in the Nightmare Realm and an outside source created a small rift into that dimension from the main universe, leaving that rift unsealed causes it to grow over time as the Nightmare Realm spills into the universe over time, making the rip/portal bigger. This is either something the Nightmare Realm naturally causes or Bill pushes with his powers, as this effect causes him to grow stronger over time as the rip grows & Time Baby referred to it as his rip<ref>Weirdmageddon 1: Xpcveaoqfoxso</ref>. Should everything have gone accordingly, Bill's rip would have destroyed the universe, yet the fact that he poses a threat to the multiverse implies he wouldn't have been trapped in the aftermath without being able to antagonize other dimensions. After Weirdmageddon, side effects of Bill's weird magic in the Gravity Falls city caused random portals/multidimensional rips to be opened there into the multivese or the Nightmare Realm<ref>Gravity Falls: Lost Legends</ref><ref>We can attribute this to Bill's powers rather than another natural effect of the Nightmare Realm as part of the side effect included phones glitching with images of Bill.</ref>. Per reference, before this Bill's powers grew stronger every minute because the Nightmare Realm was spilling into the universe, making more notable how this portals are open after Bill got destroyed & all the Nightmare Realm was banished from the universe."

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

"Have that power" how? Have access to that power, yes. Be the one who made the wormholes, no.

Have access? You mean he can use an already opened rift and make it bigger? There is no way to see that as Portal creation

Can't, that's 2 massive assumptions on the GF worldbuildings, even assuming Bill knows them. 1) Other Fords already have other Bills, to at best do the same to them our Bill did to our Ford, if their Ford is even useful. You can't assume Bill would do anything there as he would be messing with areas where he has alt. selves, which we don't know if he can or would, it's a massive jump. 2) Even if he could, if those Fords aren't useful (like being babies) then their Bills already fooled them, from there you can't assume Bill can fool them again, nor can you say "it's a multiverse, there has to be Fords not fooled by Bill that our Bill can use", that's a headcanon on how the mechanics work.

Its not bigger than your assumptions

Ok, not actual instructions, but there isn't a meaningful line in this case between knowing how to fix something and having something needing to be fixed & knowing how it looks & works when fixed. Stan could only do this because of the info Ford left.

Stan is never described as someone smart so as long has Bill could see the machine's intructions he could built it.

Your position is unclear.

My point is his knowledge on dimensional travel is very small and he never cared to try other means to archieve his goals at the very least proves he doesnt have knowledge enought to start creating portals.

See how side effects of his powers randomly open interdimensional rips? All the chaos he creates can lead to that happening on its own, which is not the same as him doing it at will/on command. We know this because it happened, while he was dead, while the Nightmare Realm was gone, while all the actions Bill did were reverted like even the things he destroyed being recreated.

He didnt created the rift his power at best make it bigger Hulk already kept a black hole open that doesnt mean he has the power to create one.

But it's stated that he destroyed the universe in an alt. future, and it's stated many times that he would destroy reality/the world/the universe.

And he probably did the universe was destroyed but was Bill still there?

See the Tiering System page, destroy all matter in the universe is Universe level. Destroy the timeline is Universe level+. Bill did the former.

Like i said im not gonna argue.

Yeah, he could do that. Or he could make a rip himself because of this other 2 feats;

"After being trapped in the Nightmare Realm and an outside source created a small rift into that dimension from the main universe, leaving that rift unsealed causes it to grow over time as the Nightmare Realm spills into the universe over time, making the rip/portal bigger. This is either something the Nightmare Realm naturally causes or Bill pushes with his powers, as this effect causes him to grow stronger over time as the rip grows & Time Baby referred to it as his rip<ref>Weirdmageddon 1: Xpcveaoqfoxso</ref>. Should everything have gone accordingly, Bill's rip would have destroyed the universe, yet the fact that he poses a threat to the multiverse implies he wouldn't have been trapped in the aftermath without being able to antagonize other dimensions. After Weirdmageddon, side effects of Bill's weird magic in the Gravity Falls city caused random portals/multidimensional rips to be opened there into the multivese or the Nightmare Realm<ref>Gravity Falls: Lost Legends</ref><ref>We can attribute this to Bill's powers rather than another natural effect of the Nightmare Realm as part of the side effect included phones glitching with images of Bill.</ref>. Per reference, before this Bill's powers grew stronger every minute because the Nightmare Realm was spilling into the universe, making more notable how this portals are open after Bill got destroyed & all the Nightmare Realm was banished from the universe."

I think you are taking in the right direction by saying it happens naturally, It makes sense that he becomes stronger because of the connection between his dimension and the normal world is bigger but thats unrelated to Bill's powers. Bill's powers made the phones glitch

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

It's been pretty tame so far. Honestly, Priority 1 was probably too much given the response. Bill might not be quite as controversial as I thought.

Might I need the popcorn now?

 

[The_Smashor]

Might I need the popcorn now?

Possibly

 

[Eficiente]

Have access? You mean he can use an already opened rift and make it bigger? There is no way to see that as Portal creation

He didnt created the rift his power at best make it bigger Hulk already kept a black hole open that doesnt mean he has the power to create one.

I can work with this.

If you can make a portal bigger, that is a pretty similar form of Space Manip as the one used to open it in the first place, may reasonably even be same. Marvel and DC are pretty BS when it comes to things like that. Think for example, you, if you keep a black hole open, assuming it otherwise closes, you are 100% manipulating it, not merely resisting it. If you make it bigger when the black hole doesn't do that by itself, you are 100% manipulating it. Those are forms of Gravity Manip.

A portal is a connection in space between place A and place B. In this case even, it's a rip, as if something being ripped, making intuitive that to further the rip is the same as to start it, just like to further rip a physical thing in a bigger way than the original rip is the same capacity as to have started the smaller rip.

Its not bigger than your assumptions

Agree to disagree there then.

Stan is never described as someone smart so as long has Bill could see the machine's intructions he could built it.

Bill gave Ford the blueprints as stated in J.3, the fact that he tried this with others and failed means even giving them that fails, it's too complex for them. If you that Bill himself could do it, realistically; yeah, on how he operates; weird how he never does that and gives up on people when they fail to build the thing for as long as pyramids being made to calm him down.

My point is his knowledge on dimensional travel is very small and he never cared to try other means to archieve his goals at the very least proves he doesnt have knowledge enought to start creating portals.

How does it help your point that he never had other plans? Actually, does this even matter anymore?

And he probably did the universe was destroyed but was Bill still there?

It didn't say, so allegedly he was long gone. He is from the year "207̃012", and Bill couldn't escale his dimension for 1.000.000.000.000/1 trillion years.

I think you are taking in the right direction by saying it happens naturally

To note, both takes are there because we don't know which one it is.

It makes sense that he becomes stronger because of the connection between his dimension and the normal world is bigger but thats unrelated to Bill's powers. Bill's powers made the phones glitch

That's not the point tho? If X's powers come from himself, it's quite a feat to say "X was dead, his powers made a tree levitate anyway". If'X's powers come from himself and how close he is to his house, it's notable to say "X was dead and his house destroyed, his powers made a tree levitate anyway". The standard being that X is alive and close to his house will mean that his powers are able to levitate a tree, being able vaguely better at it than how they could with X dead and w/o a house.

You can't just say that the phone glitches are Bill's powers but the rifts aren't when both are presented as coming from the same, this is even called the "afterweirdness", likely in ref to Bill's weird magic, w/o his realm having that as it was a thing even before Bill ruled it.

 

[Eficiente]

Actually, something just clicked. When Bill is defeated and everything goes back to normal, with even the journals coming back (as shown in journal 3, stated as everything Bill destroyed having come back), the rip shouldn't have been gone unless Bill made it with his powers, as we imagine the smaller rip was made by the portal machine, the smaller rip should have remained. If you think back at it, Bill cracked the glass with the rip on the floor, leaving some space goo, said that the gates between worlds are open, and a ray came from that aimed at the sky possibly guided by Bill (that visually seems to be the case), then the bigger rip was formed. The glass was "something destroyed by Bill", but physically so by the 2D Bill, not with his powers. If the space goo on its own naturally causes a ray upwards that makes that bigger rip, it should have done so again, which means Bill made that happen, having created that portal. The Pines don't have the glass with a rip inside to guard again.

Bill used one rift to create another rip/portal elsewhere, and that rip is the one Time Baby had issues with. So that's a Portal Creation feat, Bill started that one, like a door between one room and another allowing you to create yet another door between the same rooms.

 

[Eficiente]

Bump. Let's not forget about this, ok? I did eveything above to be added, if we are going to add it (We should).

Also, Owl House and GF having the same multiverse seems strongly contradicted by the fact that they both have their own "space between dimensions", which is not the same for each series, which needless to say is a factual thing next all the other evidence brought up that, at best, gently puts the possibility on the table.