Bill Cipher NEP1 CRT

[Thanganimator]

Isn't the reason because in the book of bill he explicitly exists as an idea and thats why he cant truly be killed instead of being nonexistent after he was killed?

No, Ford's complete deletion of Bill also erased his abstract existence, which is already mentioned in Ford's profile.

 

[Thanganimator]

Bump

 

[Thanganimator]

Bump

 

[Thanganimator]

I was planning to create a versus thread for Bill Cipher vs Rimuru after this CRT, but it looks like that will take a while.

 

[Thanganimator]

This looks fine but i will wait for Strym cause he want to say something, from his comment

Could you tag another staff member to help complete this CRT quickly? As far as I know, the new regulations for small CRTs like this only require the agreement of two staff members.

 

[Vietthai96]

Could you tag another staff member to help complete this CRT quickly? As far as I know, the new regulations for small CRTs like this only require the agreement of two staff members.

@Reiner04 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Random-Helper323 @TWILIGHT-OP

 

[Thanganimator]

@Reiner04 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Random-Helper323 @TWILIGHT-OP

Thank you.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Not really sure, so neutral but leaning towards agree

 

[Vietthai96]

I do not agree with this way of thinking.

NEP 3 works as if one is technically existent, but behaves as non-existent being when interacted with, meaning that if a normal EE attacks him, he'd be unaffected due to him being considered non-existent, and be able to switch back to existence.

A higher NEP would be required due to it being beyond the normal NEP Bill both is and is not in.

Damn i forgot about my bro Strym again.

Anyway not really, because NEP3 mean he still existing and now he turn into nonexistent, rather than already being nonexistent and was reduced to even further nonexistent.

So you don't get layer for Nature Type, but i can see you get layers Aspect Types

 

[StrymULTRA]

So you don't get layer for Nature Type, but i can see you get layers Aspect Types

I do not get how that'd even work

 

[Thanganimator]

Damn i forgot about my bro Strym again.

Anyway not really, because NEP3 mean he still existing and now he turn into nonexistent, rather than already being nonexistent and was reduced to even further nonexistent.

So you don't get layer for Nature Type, but i can see you get layers Aspect Types

Ugh... I'm not sure how it should be written on his profile and how it works because I haven't seen the aspects layers yet.

 

[Thanganimator]

Not really sure, so neutral but leaning towards agree

Does this count as agree?

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Does this count as agree?

Neutral atm

 

[Thanganimator]

Neutral atm

Can you please explain why you don't completely agree?

 

[Vietthai96]

I do not get how that'd even work

Anyway, it work similar to resistance layers i guess

 

[Thanganimator]

Anyway, it work similar to resistance layers i guess

Is Bill the first case with aspects layers?

 

[Vietthai96]

Is Bill the first case with aspects layers?

No i guess, since other with NEP layers will have both Nature Layers and Aspect Layers, Bill is probably the first one with Aspect Layers only. Befote you ask, NEP Nature Layer just make you hard to physically interact

 

[Thanganimator]

No i guess, since other with NEP layers will have both Nature Layers and Aspect Layers, Bill is probably the first one with Aspect Layers only. Befote you ask, NEP Nature Layer just make you hard to physically interact

Yeah, I think that's fine. After all, if there's another staff member who's neutral but leaning towards agreeing, does that count?

 

[Thanganimator]

Me too. But I guess it's better than nothing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

No i guess, since other with NEP layers will have both Nature Layers and Aspect Layers, Bill is probably the first one with Aspect Layers only. Befote you ask, NEP Nature Layer just make you hard to physically interact

And how would Aspect layers even work, if it's just the nature what matters? I am not understanding this one bit.

 

[Vietthai96]

Like it will be harder to interact with Aspect, like for example, you have 1 layer of Concept Aspect, this make your opponent who have Conceptual Manipulation which only have baseline NEP Concept Aspect interaction unable to interact/affect you.

 

[Thanganimator]

Like it will be harder to interact with Aspect, like for example, you have 1 layer of Concept Aspect, this make your opponent who have Conceptual Manipulation which only have baseline NEP Concept Aspect interaction unable to interact/affect you.

What...? Isn't NEP supposed to lack those aspects? Does that mean even with infinite layers of Soul Manipulation, it's useless because the soul aspect is already lack?

 

[Vietthai96]

What...? Isn't NEP supposed to lack those aspects? Does that mean even with infinite layers of Soul Manipulation, it's useless because the soul aspect is already lack?

i mean deeper level of nonexistent aspect, and also, there are some character that capable of haxing people who lacking certain aspects, well, it fiction

 

[AlexSamDen]

I disagree with the CRT, but this is honestly a part of a much larger problem that I've been discussing with @FinePoint

Bill does not qualify for NEP1. He is erased and therefore nonexistent, yes, however he still retains the ability to think. This means he does not lack his mind and therefore falls under this

An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature.

Considering that he is still able to make contracts and create things, other aspects are also under question


As I said, this is part of a larger misunderstanding. To qualify for NEP1 you need to completely lack the aspect. The example from the page is "just like a rock lacks a soul"

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Do we actually have all NEP 1 mind aspect characters as mindless on the wiki?

 

[AlexSamDen]

Do we actually have all NEP 1 mind aspect characters as mindless on the wiki?

No and that's a problem. That's the topic I was discussing with Fine, only mindless characters can qualify for NEP1 Aspect 3

Same is true for other aspects too

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbf the current NEP page sucks ass, like an incorporeal character lacking mind like Giygas would qualify as NEP 1 despite nothing hinting at him erasing himself to achieve that for or whatever.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Tbf the current NEP page sucks ass, like an incorporeal character lacking mind like Giygas would qualify as NEP 1 despite nothing hinting at him erasing himself to achieve that for or whatever.

I did propose fixing the page itself to Fine, but he preferred just fixing all current NEP1 applications

Tho I think NEP still requires some "void" or "erasure" statements to be applied, otherwise just immunity

I do agree that the page is probably not the best one tho

 

[Thermor]

No and that's a problem. That's the topic I was discussing with Fine, only mindless characters can qualify for NEP1 Aspect 3

Same is true for other aspects too

No, it doesn't work that way. This is fiction where if something is stated, then it is indexed as such. Examples such as stated being faster than sound yet said character relies on fighting his opponents using his hearing, another example is being faster than light so should be invisible at all times as light particles aren't fast enough to catch up to them unless you wanna say all of fiction caps below SOL.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I do agree that the page is probably not the best one tho

I also think it's dumb to say that a character that lacks a fundamental aspect like concept, information or plot can still have a more "basic" aspect like a soul or mind, given that the fundamental aspects would form the basic ones by default (otherwise how would a character even have these if the reason why all character's being can even exist is gone), but the wiki is not ready for the convo ngl

 

[AlexSamDen]

No, it doesn't work that way. This is fiction where if something is stated, then it is indexed as such. Examples such as stated being faster than sound yet said character relies on fighting his opponents using his hearing, another example is being faster than light so should be invisible at all times as light particles aren't fast enough to catch up to them unless you wanna say all of fiction caps below SOL.

It exactly works that way. If your mind us stated to be nonexistent, but you can think, then in the broader term your mind is still there
Which is in turn, NEP3 and not 1

 

[Thermor]

It exactly works that way. If your mind us stated to be nonexistent, but you can think, then in the broader term your mind is still there
Which is in turn, NEP3 and not 1

If you want to go extra real for fiction, ignoring narratives, you have to agree all FTL characters must be invisible and the ones who can percieve them, counts as an antifeat as it means light particles can catch up to reflect their position.

 

[AlexSamDen]

If you want to go extra real for fiction, ignoring narratives, you have to agree all FTL characters must be invisible and the ones who can percieve them, counts as an antifeat as it means light particles can catch up to reflect their position.

That's not me disregarding fiction. That's me properly classifying fiction according to our standards. If you have a beef with them - join my cause of fixing them

 

[Thermor]

That's not me disregarding fiction. That's me properly classifying fiction according to our standards. If you have a beef with them - join my cause of fixing them

So do you agree regarding all FTL characters must be invisible? This isn't properly classifiying to any standards but yours, as proven that most NEP1 or NEP2 that lacks mind, has intel like Graham.

 

[AlexSamDen]

This isn't properly classifiying to any standards but yours, as proven that most NEP1 or NEP2 that lacks mind, has intel like Graham.

First off - Graham is NEP2. NEP2 is a category of its own, between existence and nonexistence, it's a tad more complicated with it

Now about NEP1
And that's exactly the thing I'm telling you - they have it wrong. I and several other people consulted several mods knowledgeable on NEP and they all said the same thing - most profiles have it listed incorrectly

 

[Thermor]

First off - Graham is NEP2. NEP2 is a category of its own, between existence and nonexistence, it's a tad more complicated with it

Now about NEP1
And that's exactly the thing I'm telling you - they have it wrong. I and several other people consulted several mods knowledgeable on NEP and they all said the same thing - most profiles have it listed incorrectly

Could you mind answer my first question? It seems like you are constantly avoiding it.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Could you mind answer my first question? It seems like you are constantly avoiding it.

Because that question is a false analogy

We have a definitive system what Nature is each showcasing of NEP in fiction

However, that isn't the same with FTL movement, we treat it case by case, often with more leniency due to sheer popularity of the trope

 

[Thermor]

Because that question is a false analogy

We have a definitive system what Nature is each showcasing of NEP in fiction

However, that isn't the same with FTL movement, we treat it case by case, often with more leniency due to sheer popularity of the trope

So your argument that FTL is fine being non-logic compared to NEP because popularity?

 

[AlexSamDen]

So your argument that FTL is fine being non-logic compared to NEP because popularity?

Essentially - yes (tho you still strawman my NEP args)
We often apply less scrutiny to concepts that have already become established tropes in fiction, as it is more clear what was author's intention with it , even with limited elaboration

 

[Thermor]

Essentially - yes (tho you still strawman my NEP args)
We often apply less scrutiny to concepts that have already become established tropes in fiction, as it is more clear what was author's intention with it , even with limited elaboration

This kind of thought just negate your own args. You said we should ignore narrative and focus on logic cause characters can think but if its about FTL, you said the opposite only because of popularity. You are commiting a pretty big fallacy here, Appeal to Popularity.