Big Bad Wolf Comes To Upgrade Yume Nikki

[Rocker1189]

Well, he's an admin, really high in the hierarchy of staff on this wiki, so I think he's allowed to.

Thats not how it works, staff cant allow their own CRTs to go throught without other staff approval, else they could literally do anything in the wiki.

 

[Madotsuki24]

Hmm, okay then.

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

Well, he's an admin, really high in the hierarchy of staff on this wiki, so I think he's allowed to.

And staff members can't freely do anything they want either.

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

Okay, I've reverted the pages. Now we sit and wait for Saikou to come back.

 

[Madotsuki24]

You didn't ask for permission from a staff member though...

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I mean yeah, the downgrade was basically accepted but just let cal or whenever agree first

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

I don't have to. Saikou upgraded the profiles without permission from anyone. It's the right thing to do by reverting the pages to the original version.

 

[Rocker1189]

^yeah, this was meant to be for zachary.

 

[Madotsuki24]

Just because he did it, doesn't excuse you for doing it as well, two wrongs don't make a right and what you get is people who don't know any better.

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

None of these are accepted. Reverting is right because it is the original and accurate version. I don't need to ask mods to revert it for me. This isn't stacking 2 wrongs to make 1 right. Saikou is wrong here because he upgraded the profiles without the agreements of other members. I did the right thing for reverting the page to the version it should've been.

 

[Agnaa]

You didn't revert all the pages, btw.

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

There's more? Last time I checked and only 2 of them have Low 1-C keys.

 

[Agnaa]

Saikou also updated dozens of other pages with calculations that were never accepted. That's that main thing I've been trying to get reverted in the first place.

 

[KarmodF]

I will undo his revisions.

EDIT: Done so.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

@Ant

I know you've never been a fan of reality equalization, so does making a rule against "stacking" it sound good?

 

[00potato]

I would recommend it. It is just an excuse for massive wank.

 

[Agnaa]

What do you mean by making a rule against "stacking" reality equalization?

SCP's cosmology is based on a stack of "narratives" where each has a reality-fiction difference on the one below it. There's no reason that should be banned.

 

[KarmodF]

I think Zach is confused on the whole thing about Reality Equalization, but what he is trying to convey is correct.

To put it clear, he refers to the fact that we are treathing the Dream World as some sort of base reality (I.e. our universe), which by proxy would boost the real world to a higher plane of existance since according to Madotsuki and Jellyfish's profile their dreams are still considered as fiction, however, this reasoning has been rejected multiple times, most notably in DBHeroes' upgrade attempts.

 

[Agnaa]

This reasoning has also been accepted multiple times, most notably in SCP Foundatio, The Matrix, and Sword Art Online. That's the entire point of reality equalization - that we can set a realm where the bulk of the story takes place as the reality we tier things relative to for profiles, even if that verse has a "real world" which sees that realm as fiction.

I'm not sure what the situation with DBH is, but it's usually accepted when an overwhelmingly large amount of the story takes place in that fictional realm, making it misleading/nonsensical to tier it relative to the "real world" which we barely see.

 

[KarmodF]

Yes, but in this case we are using said rule to propel the destruction of said realms as Universal+ and the existence of the real world as a higher plane than the dream world, which is the equivalent of saying that your normal humans from the Matrix or SAO are higher existencial because they come from the real world.

 

[Agnaa]

That's exactly what happens in SCP Foundatio. SCP-001 (S Andrew Swann's Proposal) is just a bunch of horror writers in the "real world" that see the main narrative as fiction and wrote it. The Overvoid Lurk is the webpage in the real world that the story is seen on.

We don't do those sorts of things for The Matrix and SAO because their real humans don't have a substantial amount of influence over the simulation from outside of it. As far as I can tell, YN characters do have a substantial amount of influence over it.

 

[KarmodF]

They are destroyed alongside the Dream World once she wakes up and are recreats them once she goes back to the Dream World/goes to sleep. Doesnt that sounds exactly like how dreams work? No to mention that the only being that able to interact with the real world (As stated in his profile) is the Jellyfish, If anything you, Saik or anybody, should post evidence of them having an influence over the Real World and even then that doesnt exactly equals the Real World as a completely Higher Plane of existence.

 

[Agnaa]

• 1. Yeah, that sounds like how dreams work. In SCP every single piece of media, from every random book fiction or non-fiction, to every advertisement, to every game, to every movie, to every show, is considered a "narrative", and can be altered by people on higher layers as if it was fiction. That sounds like how fiction works in general. It's still applicable for profiles and a rating.
• 2. I'm not familiar with the verse, but Jellyfish's profile says that Madotsuki can interact with the "Real World", Jellyfish says it's the only being besides Madotsuki capable of doing so.
• 3. I'm not super familiar with the verse, but I remember hearing talk from Saikou that there's many nested layers in Yume Nikki, and that one of them is a so-called "Real World" which is later discovered to be a dream, and is transcended by a few more layers, before getting to the actual Real World. (After checking the OP, this is just the case with Yume 2kki, but Yume Nikki itself still has two separate "Real World" layers, one of which transcends the other, you shouldn't take the "Real World" label so strictly).
• 4. If it's just a perceived lack of evidence that's fine, but I haven't really seen attacks on the evidence Saikou presented, I've recently seen attacks on the idea of Reality Equalization as a whole.

 

[KarmodF]

That sounds like how fiction works in general. It's still applicable for profiles and a rating.

No, thats like saying that Arale is Low 1-C beacuse in her reality Dragon Ball exists as a narrative media and since she sees them as fiction, she trascends them. Not because it works in SCP it should work the same for every other media, this is an obvious example of case by case analysis needed.

I'm not super familiar with the verse, but I remember hearing talk from Saikou that there's many nested layers in Yume Nikki, and that one of them is a so-called "Real World" which is later discovered to be a dream, and is transcended by a few more layers, before getting to the actual Real World. (After checking the OP, this is just the case with Yume 2kki, but Yume Nikki itself still has two separate "Real World" layers, one of which transcends the other, you shouldn't take the "Real World" label so strictly).

Except not really, the Real World in Yume Nikki is literally just the normal World, in fact, the game's ending is Madotsuki pinching herself to wake up and then kill herself.

What Saikou ment by the real world being fiction is (Most likely) this panel from the manga, in which she views a monster and yet again kills herself, however, this explanation of a Real World above another comes in conflict with the message of the game, as the same panel could be interpeted as Mado just creating a monster from her subconcious representing a fear, convincing herself that the "Real World" she is seeing is just a Dream/Nightmare and that to escape she needs to kill herself.

Again, the games plays with the concept of suicide heavily, in some levels it is implied that Mado has suicidal tendencies and are as such represented in her dreams, which causes her to see the real world and her problems as a bad dream, culminating in her obting for suicide, its just that its let heavily opened for interpretation and instead of a textbox explaining it, it comunicates it with "subtle" foreshadowing.

 

[Agnaa]

No, thats like saying that Arale is Low 1-C beacuse in his reality Dragon Ball exists as a narrative media and since she sees them as fiction, she trascends them. Not because it works in SCP it should work the same for every other media, this is an obvious example of case by case analysis needed.

I'm not familiar at all with the Arale example, but existing as a narrative media isn't enough, I agree. Najimi Ajimu holding up a copy of the Medaka Box manga isn't enough to put her at Low 1-C. However, if a character created an entire realm, and can destroy it/control it, that seems good enough to rate them at Universal+.

Except not really, the Real World in Yume Nikki is literally just the normal World, in fact, the game's ending is Madotsuki pinching herself to wake up and then kill herself.

Maybe, I don't know enough about the specifics. If it's an argument about the specifics of the events in canon, we'll have to wait for Saikou to have that discussion, but Saikou mentioned a lot of things in his original post about the dream layers which you haven't mentioned and don't have an explanation for. I'd prefer a full response to that section, rather than an assumption of his argument.

EDIT: I'd also like to thank you a TON for undoing unaccepted Saikou's edits. There were a lot to go through and I'm glad we don't have to sit with them on the wiki.

 

[KarmodF]

Saikou mentioned a lot of things in his original post about the dream layers which you haven't mentioned and don't have an explanation for. I'd prefer a full response to that section, rather than an assumption of his argument.

I would, but, as you can appreciate:

They lack any links and heavily depend on reality equalization, the key point here being that there is no mention of said layers nor the Real-Real World which is presumably the one I posted above and explain on why its not really a world above the real world.

EDIT: I'd also like to thank you a TON for undoing unaccepted Saikou's edits. There were a lot to go through and I'm glad we don't have to sit with them on the wiki.

Thanks.

I forgot to add this in the last reply:

I'm not familiar with the verse, but Jellyfish's profile says that Madotsuki can interact with the "Real World", Jellyfish says it's the only being besides Madotsuki capable of doing so.

Another case of the game's storytelling, the Jellyfish appears on the last scene of the game once Mado has killed herself, they just appear as they have the purpose of symbolising death through the game.

 

[Agnaa]

I would, but, as you can appreciate They lack any links and heavily depend on reality equalization, the key point here being that there is no mention of said layers nor the Real-Real World which is presumably the one I posted above and explain on why its not really a world above the real world.

Sure, but in the sections for specific canons Saikou lists out layers, and the source material that those layers are described in. I'd hope that this would be enough for you to get an idea of whether it's legit or not, but if you don't that's fair enough.

that makes me realize that technically this CRT would violate our new discussion rule

Content Revision Threads need to be supported by scans, quotes, video clips, accepted calcs, or any other direct proof that claimed events actually happened in the source material. In the absence of this evidence, CRTs may be closed without notice.

 

[Rocker1189]

I also want evidence of one of the world's being Low 2-C in the first place.

 

[KarmodF]

Sure, but in the sections for specific canons Saikou lists out layers and the sources that those layers are described in. I'd hope that this would be enough for you to get an idea of whether it's legit or not, but if you don't I understand.

Yeah, those where the first ones Ive checked and the only good evidence there is:

For the rest. There exist three layers of reality in Yume Nikki. The Dream Layer. The Real World layer. And the Dream Diary Real World layer.

And this note he added in her page once he did the changes:

Note: The "real world" featured in the game is revealed to be another dream in Dream Diary, thus making this incarnation of Madotsuki reliant on her Dream Diary self.

But again, no sources nor explanation about said layers or worlds, hell I have no idea what the Dream Diary Real World layer is, the only explanation I can give is that it comes from the Dream Diary versio of the game, which shouldnt even be accounted for since Saikou splitted the profiles to indicate that they dont share the same continuity.

 

[Agnaa]

Wack.

 

[KarmodF]

Wiggity.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'm going to reference this thread when dargoo tries to downgrade magic the gatherings 4-As

 

[KarmodF]

Why?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The 4-As are 4-A via a proverbial dream dimension full of stars that serves as the night sky of one of the planes

 

[KarmodF]

ok

 

[Antvasima]

I think that simply considering an elaborate dream world as proof that a denizens of a regular reality should be given extra high statistics outside of the dream seems unreliable, but on the other hand increasing orders of reality-fiction differences and transcending all hierarchies of power in the lower layers is what fictions such as Umineko no Naku Koro ni and part of our current tiering system are built on. Basically, there are likely no perfects solutions, and we have to use common sense on a case by case basis.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, I'd like some discussion about the merits of this particular case, but Saikou hasn't been on vsbw lately so that can't really happen.

I've heard from others that he's been pretty active on other Discord servers, but I haven't been able to wrangle him in here :L

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. You can ask other members for help with contacting him if you wish.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Umineko has it so the "real" world is genuinely real and higher layers view this as fiction. Reality equalization is slightly different. This is like saying the machines in the matrix are Low 1-C.