Beyond Dimensional Existence Revision Thread

[Rakih_Elyan]

Our prevailing BDE type 2 page is veritably outdated and insufficient. It lacks crucial traits that must be present for something claiming to exist beyond the confines of time and space while being superior to it. Thus, I proffer the addition of the subsequent abilities to our BDE type 2 page:

1. Resistance to Physics Manipulation: The principles of time and space are foundational to physics, forming the basis of the space-time continuum that encompasses the three dimensions of space and the temporal dimension. All physical phenomena are measured and observed within this framework [1][3]. However, traditional physics may be inadequate for entities that exist beyond this framework, referred to as Beyond Dimensional Existence (BDE). Such entities may be able to resist physics manipulation [10].
   Albert Einstein's theory of general relativity, published in 1915, expanded on the idea of space-time, describing how gravity affects the fabric of space-time [2]. Einstein's theory of special relativity created a fundamental link between space and time, establishing that the universe is a four-dimensional space-time continuum with three spatial dimensions and one time dimension [5]. According to Einstein, time is not absolute but is relative and flexible [7].
   
   In modern physics, the idea of the space-time continuum is often used in theories like string theory and relativity, where space-time is viewed as a smooth fabric that can be manipulated in various ways [9]. The laws of physics must be the same in all inertial reference frames, and the speed of light in a vacuum has the same value in all inertial reference frames regardless of the velocity of the observer or the velocity of the source [8].
   
   In conclusion, physics is based on the principles of time and space, which are interconnected to form the space-time continuum that encompasses the three spatial dimensions and the temporal dimension. However, traditional physics may not be effective for entities that exist beyond this framework, and such entities may possess the ability to resist physics manipulation. The space-time continuum is a fundamental concept in modern physics and is used in theories like relativity and string theory.
2. Uninteractable: Individuals within the space-time continuum cannot interact with something that exists beyond it without auxiliary intervention is a concept that aligns with the current scientific understanding of the universe. According to the theory of relativity, space and time are intertwined in what is known as the space-time continuum, which is a four-dimensional mathematical model [5]. Objects with mass, such as humans or planets, create a distortion in this space-time continuum [3].
   Based on our current understanding of physics, any interaction with entities beyond the space-time framework would require auxiliary intervention, as our movements and interactions are restricted within this framework. This limitation is due to the fact that any physical interaction requires the transfer of energy and information, which cannot occur outside the space-time continuum.
   
   In other words, any entities or phenomena that exist beyond the space-time continuum cannot be interacted with in a physical sense, as we are bound by the laws of physics that apply within this framework.
3. Possible Immeasurable Speed: In our three-dimensional world, time and distance are intertwined and cannot be separated, but a being that exists beyond these dimensions may have the ability to move freely through all three spatial dimensions and through time without any constraints or limitations, resulting in immeasurable speed [1].
   For instance, a being existing in a beyond dimension may be able to move through time in the same way that we move through space, allowing them to travel to any point in time with ease. Alternatively, they may perceive time differently, perceiving all points in time as existing simultaneously, which would allow them to react to events before they even occur [3].
4. Acausality type 2 and possibly type 4: One possible explanation for why a being beyond space-time may possess Type 2 Temporal Singularity Acausality is that they exist outside of the timeline altogether. This means that they do not exist at any point in time, whether it be the past, present, or future. Therefore, they cannot be affected by changes to the timeline or abilities that manipulate fate or precognition.
   Regarding Type 4 Irregular Causality Acausality, this may be due to the fact that a being beyond space-time operates on a different level of reality altogether. They may be subject to different laws of cause and effect that do not follow our understanding of regular causality.
5. Resistance to Energy and Matter Manipulation: The space-time continuum is the framework in which all matter and energy in the universe exists, according to the theory of general relativity. Some researchers suggest that quantum entanglement may be responsible for the continuity and connectivity of space, which suggests that space itself is not an independent entity, but rather a consequence of quantum mechanical interactions between particles [1]. General relativity equations suggest that the shape of space-time is a complete and timeless object that does not change with time [2]. Furthermore, the inseparability and variability of space-time were demonstrated by Einstein's theory of relativity [3]. It is also important to note that matter and energy can warp space-time and vice versa, but they exist within it [4]. While there are no accurate experiments to measure the continuum itself, it is generally accepted that matter is the substance of the real world and occupies a definite part of space [5]. Therefore, it seems that matter cannot exist beyond the confines of the space-time continuum as it is the framework within which all matter exists. This should also extend to energy, according to current scientific understanding, energy is a property of matter and cannot exist independently of it [1]. Since matter is believed to exist within the four-dimensional fabric of space-time, it follows that energy also exists within this continuum.

Now be chill and relax, please discuss this deeply before making any decision. And please don't make any problems in this thread.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

This should be a staff thread cause its about a wiki ability in entirety.

Will comment later.

 

[Sniper670]

This should be a staff thread

I agree with this

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

If a staff came here and commented, I will definitely move this thread there.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Hard agree on the acausality, that has been long overdue (type 1 should benefit from this too but I digress). As for everything else... I'm not entirely sure. The logic is there, yes, but I guess my issue lies with how we treat things that are 99% reliant on real-world science and not, y'know, how the verse treats the abiity. A good example is black holes, where we don't give black hole users every conceivable use of what black holes do irl. I'll wait for staff opinions though, so consider me neutral on those points.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Hard agree on the acausality, that has been long overdue (type 1 should benefit from this too but I digress). As for everything else... I'm not entirely sure. The logic is there, yes, but I guess my issue lies with how we treat things that are 99% reliant on real-world science and not, y'know, how the verse treats the abiity. A good example is black holes, where we don't give black hole users every conceivable use of what black holes do irl. I'll wait for staff opinions though, so consider me neutral on those points.

Space-time should hold the same logic I think, except if the mechanics of space-time in the verse are explicitly different from the IRL.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Space-time should hold the same logic I think, except if the mechanics of space-time in the verse are explicitly different from the IRL.

I'm not denying that, I'm just saying there's precedent for us not giving an ability every possible sub-ability even if it's scientifically accurate.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I'm not denying that, I'm just saying there's precedent for us not giving an ability every possible sub-ability even if it's scientifically accurate.

BDE being only resisting Time and Space manip-only sounds really stupid TBH. I just trying to add some abilities that are logical enough, even HDE is treated better than BDE.

 

[Planck69]

Acausality is alright but the rest of a lot of these aren't represented in fiction consistently.

Moving this to Staff Discussion.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Acausality type 2 works but the rest doesn't (and Def not immeasurable speed) but I will drop my arguments when I get access to my laptop.

Wrote this to get automatic follow

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Acausality type 2 works but the rest doesn't (and Def not immeasurable speed) but I will drop my arguments when I get access to my laptop.

Wrote this to get automatic follow

 

[DontTalkDT]

1. No, by that reasoning any being that is a bit magical (or lives in a magical place with magical rules) would have it too. Just because a being can enter a place it shouldn't doesn't mean it ignores physics.
2. No, just because you interact different with lack of spacetime, doesn't mean you interact different with everything else, too.
3. No, Immeasurable has specific requirements and actually requires time to exist as measuring stick. Just because you can exist outside of time, doesn't mean you can move through it. It's just like being able to walk outside of the water, doesn't mean you can swim against the river stream.
4. No, characters that temporarily exist in a timeless void frequently still possess a past and a future from when they are in the time stream. Heck, there is a reason we decided to only list that BDE characters are only usually Acausal Type 1, as causality and time are not necessarily interconnected.
Type 4 meanwhile is just speculatin.
5. No, because that's frequently contradicted. In general, if the attack happens within spacetime, then your ability to be above spacetime isn't equivalent to be above the attack, too.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The tags of the thread should be removed.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

1. No, by that reasoning any being that is a bit magical (or lives in a magical place with magical rules) would have it too. Just because a being can enter a place it shouldn't doesn't mean it ignores physics.
2. No, just because you interact different with lack of spacetime, doesn't mean you interact different with everything else, too.
3. No, Immeasurable has specific requirements and actually requires time to exist as measuring stick. Just because you can exist outside of time, doesn't mean you can move through it. It's just like being able to walk outside of the water, doesn't mean you can swim against the river stream.
4. No, characters that temporarily exist in a timeless void frequently still possess a past and a future from when they are in the time stream. Heck, there is a reason we decided to only list that BDE characters are only usually Acausal Type 1, as causality and time are not necessarily interconnected.
Type 4 meanwhile is just speculatin.
5. No, because that's frequently contradicted. In general, if the attack happens within spacetime, then your ability to be above spacetime isn't equivalent to be above the attack, too.

Going to respond to everything here 16 hours later. Your point doesn't debunk my BDE type 2 CRT. And how on earth did you even make a magical place comparison with being beyond space-time? That is a really bad comparison, please read carefully my original post above.

2. No, just because you interact different with lack of spacetime, doesn't mean you interact different with everything else, too.

It is not that they cannot interact with others, it is others that cannot interact with them.

Based on our current understanding of physics, any interaction with entities beyond the space-time framework would require auxiliary intervention, as our movements and interactions are restricted within this framework. This limitation is due to the fact that any physical interaction requires the transfer of energy and information, which cannot occur outside the space-time continuum.

In other words, any entities or phenomena that exist beyond the space-time continuum cannot be interacted with in a physical sense, as we are bound by the laws of physics that apply within this framework.

I have exams to take.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

1. No, by that reasoning any being that is a bit magical (or lives in a magical place with magical rules) would have it too. Just because a being can enter a place it shouldn't doesn't mean it ignores physics.

The argument presented here regarding the Resistance to Physic manipulation is flawed and fails to address the underlying reasons for its inclusion.

The principles of time and space are foundational to physics, forming the basis of the space-time continuum that encompasses the three dimensions of space and the temporal dimension. All physical phenomena are measured and observed within this framework [1][3].

Magical places do exist within the framework of space-time unless explicitly noted otherwise. If a magical place exists beyond and transcends space-time, it would qualify for BDE (Beyond Dimensional Existence). It should be noted that simply having different laws does not necessarily mean that magical places resist physics.

However, it is important to recognize that there are certain places that exist beyond the limitations of space-time, and these places operate under different laws of physics. This is not merely an assumption, but rather a well-established concept in the realm of theoretical physics.

physics is based on the principles of time and space, which are interconnected to form the space-time continuum that encompasses the three spatial dimensions and the temporal dimension. However, traditional physics may not be effective for entities that exist beyond this framework, and such entities may possess the ability to resist physics manipulation.

3. No, Immeasurable has specific requirements and actually requires time to exist as measuring stick. Just because you can exist outside of time, doesn't mean you can move through it. It's just like being able to walk outside of the water, doesn't mean you can swim against the river stream.

While it is true that time serves as a measuring stick for us in our three-dimensional world, it doesn't necessarily mean that time must exist for beings beyond our dimensions to measure their movement. Immeasurable speed can simply mean that the being moves faster than any known measuring stick, including time.

Furthermore, the argument that just because you can exist outside of time doesn't mean you can move through it is flawed. If a being exists beyond time, then they wouldn't be subject to its constraints and limitations, meaning they would be able to move through it freely without any restrictions.

Additionally, the analogy of walking outside of water but not being able to swim against the river stream doesn't quite apply in this case. Moving through time is not the same as swimming against a stream, as time is not a physical force with a direction like a river.

The analogy of walking outside of water versus swimming against a river stream is not applicable to the concept of existing outside of time. The ability to exist outside of time suggests a state of being that is not subject to the limitations and constraints of time.

Therefore, the argument that Immeasurable requires time to exist as a measuring stick and that the ability to exist outside of time is analogous to being able to walk outside of water, is not a sound argument.

In conclusion, the existence of beings beyond our dimensions with the ability to move through time without constraints is not only possible but also logically consistent with the concept of existing outside our three-dimensional world.

4. No, characters that temporarily exist in a timeless void frequently still possess a past and a future from when they are in the time stream. Heck, there is a reason we decided to only list that BDE characters are only usually Acausal Type 1, as causality and time are not necessarily interconnected.

Let me answer this bit by bit.

No, characters that temporarily exist in a timeless void frequently still possess a past and a future from when they are in the time stream.

While it is true that characters who temporarily exist in a timeless void may possess a past and a future when they return to the time stream, this does not necessarily mean that beings beyond space-time who exist outside the timeline altogether would possess a past or a future.

The concept of a "timeless void" still implies a space-time framework, albeit one where time is temporarily suspended. In contrast, a being that exists outside the timeline would not be bound by the same limitations as those who exist within it.

It's also important to note that possessing a past or a future is not the same as existing within the timeline. The existence of a past and a future implies the existence of time, but it does not necessarily mean that the being is subject to the same laws of causality as those within the timeline.

Therefore, it is still possible that a being beyond space-time may possess Type 2 Temporal Singularity Acausality and not be affected by changes to the timeline or abilities that manipulate fate or precognition, precisely because they exist outside the timeline altogether.

Mind you that this is BDE type 2 which transcend the space-time, not type 1.

Type 4 meanwhile is just speculatin.

The argument that Type 4 Acausality is mere speculation because it pertains to beings beyond space-time is flawed. This is because Type 4 Acausality is not a mere conjecture, but rather a well-established concept within various fictional universes. In these universes, Type 4 Acausality refers to characters who operate on a different system of cause and effect than regular causality, granting them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition [8].

Furthermore, the idea of different levels of reality and different laws of cause and effect is not entirely implausible. In fact, some physicists and philosophers suggest that our understanding of causality and the laws of physics may not necessarily apply to all levels of reality, particularly at the quantum level [3]. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to assume that beings beyond space-time could operate under a different set of laws of cause and effect.

In summary, the argument that Type 4 Acausality for being beyond space-time is merely speculative is unfounded, as it is a well-established concept within fictional universes. Moreover, the idea of different levels of reality and different laws of cause and effect is not entirely far-fetched, as some theories in physics and philosophy suggest. Therefore, Type 4 Acausality should not be dismissed as mere speculation.

They are not even bound by the law of physics.

causality and time are not necessarily interconnected.

It is worth noting, however, that many other philosophical and scientific arguments support the idea that causality and time are inextricably linked. For example, the five C's of historical thinking (change over time, causality, context, complexity, and contingency) are considered to be the shared foundations of the discipline of history, and causality is inherently tied to the concept of temporal sequence and progression [3]. Additionally, in empirical facts, an effect preceding a cause is generally considered to go against the laws of physics [1]. So type 4 is not even far fetched.

No, because that's frequently contradicted. In general, if the attack happens within spacetime, then your ability to be above spacetime isn't equivalent to be above the attack, too.

I don't know what point you are trying to makes here...

 

[Tatsumi504]

Alright, DT has spoken so nuke the thread

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Alright, DT has spoken so nuke the thread

No.
I
Will
Defend
My
Argument​

 

[ImmortalDread]

It is worth noting, however, that many other philosophical and scientific arguments support the idea that causality and time are inextricably linked. For example, the five C's of historical thinking (change over time, causality, context, complexity, and contingency) are considered to be the shared foundations of the discipline of history, and causality is inherently tied to the concept of temporal sequence and progression [3]. Additionally, in empirical facts, an effect preceding a cause is generally considered to go against the laws of physics [1]. So type 4 is not even far fetched.

But in our case they are not interconnected.

 

[ImmortalDread]

There many flaws in your arguments, I will address them after my party.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

But in our case they are not interconnected.

How?
THis is an empirical fact.

 

[ImmortalDread]

How?
THis is an empirical fact.

We literally have standards for this. Fiction doesn't always operate on this.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

We literally have standards for this. Fiction doesn't always operate on this.

Tell me how are they operating then? We can usually accept something like this as they have an actual scientific and philosophical basis.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Tell me how are they operate then?

Not every fictions works with this logic, hence we have standards for that. You are using irl physics to refute the fiction logic won't give you anything.

The standard exists, you need to create a new seperate thread about it later.

Even your refutation against immeasurable speed and timeless voids don't work here since you are not even looking from fiction's perspective rather from irl theories.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

The standard exists, you need to create a new seperate thread about it later.

Even your refutation against immeasurable speed and timeless voids don't work here since you are not even looking from fiction's perspective rather from irl theories.

How it's working on fiction then?

Except for the mechanism of said verse are different, it is wrong to apply abilities based on actual science?

Hell, even HDE is an example of this.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If we apply every ability based on a theory that is not even verified, then damn, that's not anymore fiction indexxing.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

If we apply every ability based on a theory that is not even verified, then damn, that's not anymore fiction indexxing.

Explain HDE then.
I don't know why we shouldn't add some abilities based on a theory like this since I don't even use every damn theory available to wank BDE. Even some P&A in the wiki using science theory.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Explain HDE then.

What about it? It's actually fictional logic that every being who is higher dimensional existence gets HDE. Which theory do I need to understand this concept?

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

What about it? It's actually fictional logic that every being who is higher dimensional existence gets HDE. Which theory do I need to understand this concept?

No.
They still use the same mathematical theorem like this.

Speaking in more rigorous terms, a "dimension" in a system can be most effectively equated to the real number line, which is itself the most basic example of a 1-dimensional coordinate space (commonly denoted as simply as ℝ), and contains bounded subsets (smaller, finite lines if you will) whose exact measurements can be taken by "pointing" at a real number represented as a specific point in the line (Example: A line with length 3 is a subset of the real number line, whose length is infinite)

In this context, adding another dimension to a given space is effectively adding another real number line in a different, perpendicular position, which is mathematically represented by continuous cartesian products of ℝ. For example, 2-dimensional space is represented by ℝ^2 (ℝ x ℝ), 3-dimensional space by ℝ^3, and so on and so forth.

In this context, measurements of positions in space are once again obtained by directing oneself at arbitrary numbers contained in the axes of the given expanse, thus obtaining one's own coordinates in it. Simplifying this case, one could also informally state that the "Dimension" of a space is the exact number of coordinates needed to specify any position within it.

Pseudo-Invulnerability: Due to the additional axis spatially inherent to them, higher-dimensional objects are comprised of more information than what can normally be described in lower-dimensional spaces, and thus may only be capable of interacting with them through lower-dimensional "slices" or cross-sections of their bodies.

Pseudo-Teleportation: Higher-dimensional entities may be capable of seemingly phasing in and out of sight by moving through additional axes imperceptible to lower-dimensional beings, granting them a notable advantage in overall range and mobility.

Unconventional Physiology: Although much of the same physical laws and principles would theoretically apply to higher-dimensional worlds, they would likely be instantiated very differently, resulting in matter behaving in strange ways compared to our own Universe.

Large Size: Due to the additional angles possessed by them, higher-dimensional objects and beings would be much larger than lower ones.

Even by fictional logic, BDE should have more than plain time and space manipulation resistance.
What I do to BDE is similar to HDE. Even some abilities I proposed for this CRT are just common sense.
I'm going to play some VN for hours, see ya later.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I mean, shouldn't BDE type 2 be immeasurable speed already since logically they would transcend or be superior to the nature of time in their verse?
Plus with acausality type 5 you could use some of the exact same arguments of it not being consistent in fiction and it's also extremely hard to get on this wiki.
Honestly don't mind BDE type 2 being extremely hard to get as well.

 

[ImmortalDread]

No since with that logic 1-A beings transcend space-time

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

No since with that logic 1-A beings transcend space-time

Type 2: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown. Due to transcending this spacetime

 

[Tarang123]

No since with that logic 1-A beings transcend space-time

Isn't this literally how Type 2 is defined?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Isn't this literally how Type 2 is defined?

Ya but it does not grant you any speed by default. It's literally stated in the FAQ.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I must acknowledge that the BDE is deficient in one aspect, which is the need for it to be of 1-A quality in order to align with its intended context.

Nonetheless, this matter is extraneous to the current discussion and therefore, inconsequential.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Ya but it does not grant you any speed by default. It's literally stated in the FAQ.

Looks like it's referring to IN VERSE statements of transcending. While this wiki has BDE type 2 as superior and transcendent over spatiotemporal dimensions of the verse

 

[ImmortalDread]

Looks like it's referring to IN VERSE statements of transcending. While this wiki has BDE type 2 as superior and transcendent over spatiotemporal dimensions of the verse

I comprehend your statement; however, it follows the same reasoning as that of 1-A. It is impossible to transcend a space-time concept and not be of 1-A quality. It is unfeasible to be transcendent on a planetary scale while concurrently being superior to and transcendental over space-time. Do you apprehend the logic and inconsistency here? Consequently, I am of the belief that it is a matter of immunity rather than its actual context.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

space-time concept and not be of 1-A quality.

Laugh in Blue and white

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Laugh in Blue and white

Laugh in I got it removed

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I comprehend your statement; however, it follows the same reasoning as that of 1-A. It is impossible to transcend a space-time concept and not be of 1-A quality. It is unfeasible to be transcendent on a planetary scale while concurrently being superior to and transcendental over space-time. Do you apprehend the logic and inconsistency here? Consequently, I am of the belief that it is a matter of immunity rather than its actual context.

Transcending concept of space-time is 5D on this wiki no? Don't really get what you're trying to get across. But sounds like a problem with this wiki.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Transcending concept of space-time is 5D on this wiki no? Don't really get what you're trying to get across. But sounds like a problem with this wiki.

No, concept of space-time as literally? That's 1-A (obviously with context)