Berserk: Guts speed revision

[Goodyfresh]

I think this is a case of people taking things way too literally. The entire basis of people thinking this is that Wyald supposedly impaled that guy on that tower by running all the way up there and impaling him, because the part of the story where it happens says it happened in "an instant."

Anyone else think that seems kind of silly and also highly inconsistent with the rest of the series? When do we ever see Guts fighting at what appears to be anywhere close to hypersonic speeds? Moreover, who says the word "instant" was meant ot be taken literally in that passage with Wyald? In fact, the majority-consensus among hardcore-obsessive fans of Berserk is that the use of that word "instant" was meant figuratively to mean that it happened very quickly, and that Wyald threw the guy onto the tower rather than running up there with him, because running up there with him would be a fairly silly and stupid thing for Wyald to do anyways.

I have more evidence for Guts not being hypersonic or even supersonic. Look at Guts' fight against Rosine during the Black Swordsman arc. Rosine was barely supersonic with her flight-speed, and as Guts continued to be buffetted by sonic booms as she went by, he clearly acted bewildered as to what they were, because he'd never heard a sonic-boom before! And the mangaka is clearly realistic, too, based on that fight, about the effects of supersonic-and-above travel when it comes to the creation of sonic booms, which has never happened anywhere else in the series! For that reason, I think the ONLY things in the series which have ever physically moved faster than the Speed of Sound are: The tip of Guts' sword, Rosine during flight, and possibly Skull Knight--but that last is debatable since he never did create sonic booms.

Guts' speed seriously needs to be downgraded to subsonic (faster-than-eye) while Skull Knight's should probably be downgraded to trans-sonic.

I'm not just talking out of my ass, either. I've read every single chapter of Berserk over five times (true story, I'm OBSESSED with Berserk, it's my favorite story of all time) in both the official translations and scanlations from various groups. The series has a penchant for figurative language. The term "instantly" is not necessarily meant to be taken literally. Apologies to whoever originally did the calc for Wyald's supposedly "Mach 22" feat, but I do believe you were taking the wording of that passage far too literally, and that Wyald really did simply throw the guy up there like a sensible and rationally-thinking inhuman psychotic-murderer would do.

My final word on this, since I'm guessing some people might be stubborn about it: Are we going to base the speed-tiers in Berserk on a one-time event which was simply described/worded in a certain way, or are we going to base them on a look at what actually happens in the series throughout its over 300 chapters? Also, I love Guts, he's my favorite character in anything ever, but if he needs to be downgraded he needs to be downgraded, and I'm fine with that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No need to be so loud and harsh, I would appreciate if you edit your post a little bit.

Having said that, I have mixed feelings on your opinion.

 

[Tivanenk]

And what's your opinion on Guts dodging lightning?

 

[Goodyfresh]

All I'm saying is, the series makes it VERY clear, in the fight with Rosine, that when a character is moving at supersonic speeds they will be accompanied by a sonic-boom like in the real world. In some other series one could easily cite lack-of-consistency for them sometimes showing sonic-booms and sometimes not, but guys, this is Berserk, it's as carefully-written and internally-consistent as any series can EVER get. Language by in-verse characters ("in an instant," in this case with the Wyald feat) is not always meant to be taken 100% literally, and series with a fantasy-setting like this one are especially prone to the use of figurative or non-literal language.

In response to Matthew: I did edit the original post to no longer sound accusatory, you were right to ask me to do so.

And what's your opinion on Guts dodging lightning?

Here's the thing about the lightning-dodging feat: One does not have to be as fast as something in order to dodge it, as long as one has a way to know where and when the attack is coming from. Consider that there are plenty of characters in fiction who are shown able to dodge bullets (which are supersonic) despite only having superhuman (not even subsonic) speed, as long as they keep an eye on the trigger-fingers of the opponents shooting at them! In this case, check out this image of the feat in-question: http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m156/kinasin/Berserk/Berserk_v31c274p14.png Ganishka telegraphed that attack so obviously that an amateur could see how he telegraphs it, seriously. Guts and Serpico are clearly able to see the attack charging up several seconds before its release. A guy with Guts' battle-experience is able to predict exactly what moment Ganishka will fire off that attack based on how Ganishka is telegraphing it, meaning he can easily dodge it with only superhuman-to-subsonic speed. Moreover, just a few pages after the one where Guts and Serpico dodge the clearly-telegraphed lightning strike, the sorceror Daiba states "No human. . .no, NOTHING can move faster than lightning," and then with Ganishka's very next attack GUTS FAILS TO DODGE THE LIGHTNING in spite of his crazy-fast reflexes and Ganishka's behavior, and gets hit and electrocuted! Hahaha. Seriously. Go look it up, it's a damn good chapter of the series really

Anyway, considering the stuff about sonic-boom mechanics mentioned earlier and the incredible internal-consistency of Berserk as a series, I think it's safe to say that even Skull Knight is not actually supersonic and is at best Transonic (around Mach 0.9) in any feat we've seen so far, since we've never seen him create a sonic-boom.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Thanks for doing the chances, Goodyfresh.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I think that this seems to make sense, but would like to see input from more people.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

(Point has been covered by Alakabamm)

"Guts and Serpico are clearly able to see the attack charging up several seconds before its release." have you got any specific proof regarding the charge up time to be seven seconds? I have never read that before in the manga. I don't really buy the "if this character did not perform a sonic boom there is no way he can be even subsonic" argument. Berserk may be a consistant verse with how speed is shown but then again so are many other verses. And we do not rely purely on visuals to decide how fast characters are moving, if we done this many characters from other verses would be downgraded too.

Just to make sure, the feat Guts performed was not aimdodging in the slightest, we see that in this panel Guts has his sword out and a few panels later we see Guts in the same positio whilst the lightning is directly moving towards him leading me to believe he could of only planted the sword at that exact moment. Guts face even flares up slightly before he starts to perform the feat, I do not see how this is an aimdodging feat.

 

[Alakabamm]

You are ignoring everything these calcs stand on, presumably because you did not take the time to read them or because you are one of those people who dislike the use of above supersonic characters in fiction.

On the Wyald feat:

The assumption of the feat has nothing to do with "an instant" - "an instant" is not a usable timeframe for any calc, ever, and it was not used for this calc. What WAS used was the limit of human eyesight, specifically, the smallest timespan something could move without being seen by the human eye during the action.

In this case, the townspeople did not see Wyald impale the guy on a spike, they merely saw the guy appear on the spike itself. The movement was just that fast. The scene itself does not show shockwaves, but we do not, in any way or form, require feats to show shockwaves like that. So there is nothing wrong with the timeframe.

On the Ganishka feat:

There are, in fact, no assumptions here: we saw where the lightning was during the frame, we see that Guts' sword was actually NOT on the correct side that it is shown in when he redirected the lightning (it was on his right, whereas it is shown on his left afterwards) and thus he had to have moved the sword in that timeframe. There is no possible implication of aimdodging.


Also, actual lightning is somewhat hard to dodge: it has "steps" that can move even faster than it normally does and can cover wide areas. There is also the fact that Guts is in movement during these scenes and can't even attempt to attack Ganishka until he gets in the air.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I can confirm, that even in the Dark Horse translations that nobody noticed Wyald moving. But instead knowing that the tower had a man impaled onto it, here it is if you want to view it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it seems like Alakabamm has solved this issue then.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Just because they did not see Wyald moving does not mean he ran all the way up there with the guy to impale him though. He could have sent the guy flying with a physical blow that would send him on an arc landing on the spike, and because the blow was faster than people could see, it took them several moments to register that the guy had flown through the air and been impaled--which would make perfect sense, and give them the impression the guy had just "suddenly appeared impaled up on the spike." It would still imply a significant level of superhuman speed for Wyald, but not high-hypersonic, and would make a ton of sense given the context of the scene. If Wyald simply hit or threw the guy at, say, near-sonic speeds so that he'd land up on top of the building, it would still take ordinary humans several seconds to actually register what had just happened and follow the arc with their eyes to where the guy has been impaled.

I just really think it is much more plausible in the context of this manga overall for what I just said to have happened, than for Wyald to have somehow grabbed the other guy and gone and impaled him on the building at hypersonic speeds. The latter just seems kind of. . .well. . .silly for Wyald to even do. He'd more than make his point about being terrifyingly superhuman by just throwing/uppercutting the guy up there, which would be way simpler and, again, more plausible.

About the page with the lightning-dodge: Did you guys read it too? Ganishka clearly gave them plenty of heads-up that such an attack was coming their way. Even if it had been only half a second that's more than enough time for Guts to be ready to react without having to be faster than the lightning, only fast enough to react to Ganishka himself. The fact that he CAN'T move faster or even close to as fast as the lightning is why he fails to dodge it the second and third times in the pages immediately following, seriously.

If Apostles like Wyald really have movement-speeds of something like Mach 22, why haven't we seen them use such speeds in any significant or important battles in the series? Zodd has never moved even CLOSE to that fast in combat that we've seen, and he's supposed to be superior in combat to an Apostle like Wyald in pretty much every single way. Guts had a ton of trouble dealing with Rosine and acted like he was completely unfamaliar with the experience of hearing sonic booms during that fight, and Rosine from the depictions of her movement was clearly low-supersonic, at best at low-level fighter-jet levels of speed, and that was flight speed (I cant think of any time someone has shown evidence of beyond-sonic speed on the ground aside from a completely stone-cold-literal interpretation of the scene with Wyald we have been talking about). Moreover, Rosine had a very hard time precisely controlling her trajectory at those barely-supersonic speeds. But you're telling me it makes sense that Wyald can somehow carry out SUPER-PRECISE movements, as precise as carrying a human body without completely liquefying it during the process of acceleration, at speeds as high as Mach 22, on the ground with his legs while untransformed, in the same manga where the fight between Guts and Rosine was portrayed in such a way? That does not make any sense at all. The scaling does not make sense.

Also, did no one else notice that in the passage in question with Wyald's introduction, he is still wearing the big wood-block prison manacle restricting his hands after already impaling the other guy? You would think that if he had grabbed the guy and moved at high hypersonic speeds the manacles would be broken. So if that's the case, how could he have impaled him in any way than what I said in the first paragraph, by basically just punting him into the air with a physical blow? Yet another reason why it seems silly to me . . . . . .I have read the calc, you see, several times, and it's predicated on the assumption that Wyald actually grabbed the guy and ran up to the top of that tower and back dow. How would he do that with his hands still manacled in the position taht we see them in? Take a look again at the pages in-question guys and see if you can explain how that would be possible. I HAVE the official Dark Horse version of teh manga right here guys, and ALL that is said to indicate your theory is: "In an instant, a strange statue had appeared on the peak of the tower." Okay. So. Could that not be metaphorical? Would that not make more sense, actually?


Also I have problem with supersonic characters in fiction. I'm a fan of verses of ALL tiers. I'm a fan of Wally West the Flash, okay guys? I have no problem with stupid-haxx speed feats. But it was not until I was on these forums that I even KNEW that anyone anywhere had thought to interpret that passage in Berserk as Wyald grabbing that guy and running up the tower with him. Haha.

 

[Alakabamm]

I'm aware that you have problems with supersonic characters in fiction, but your standards of evidence and just how much fiction needs to meet reality has absolutely nothing to do with the standards of this wiki in terms of it.

Yes, in real life, speed has all sorts of implications...implications beyond most writers to understand, so whether they mean it or not is not really up for discussion in most cases.

A couple things, however:

1. You did not respond, at all, to what I said about the lightning. Aimdodging has nothing to do with it when we see the lightning has already been "fired." Really not a great argument to make at all.

2. You talk about the "speed" of characters in a non-moving manga...give me a break. You don't know what speed they are actually moving at. If you try to argue "realism" in that sense, as I would expect from other people who get anal about supersonic and FTL feats in fictions, I would, once again, direct you to acknowledge that your standards are different from the standards of this wiki.

3. You make the Rosine argument, but again, I doubt the author has any understanding of just how fast sonic speed even is. Furthermore, in real life, making sonic booms doesn't necessarily make one "mach 1" - all supersonic things make sonic booms, its just that the boom changes as the mach number increases. We don't actually know her maximum speed from that.

But the argument "authors need to show sonic booms for a character to be supersonic" is not taken as a standard by this wiki so I really don't need to say anything about it. Furthermore, even if Guts himself was making sonic booms, how would he see them? Rosine is an example of someone fighting far enough away that he can see the booms. Regardless, its a bad argument.

4. Fun Fact: Wyald had people surrounding him when he did the feat. All the people saw it disappear. If he threw him instead of impaling him, then the mayor and others on the correct side of him would definitely see the free fall. It is very clear that this is not the case if "instantly" is used.


Also, I don't really have a reason to keep this open if all you are going to say is long-winded arguments about how your standards of physics applies to this wiki. Respond to me concisely and give me new arguments instead of old rehashed ones in your response or I will just close the thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Alakabamm.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Alakabamm: You should know though that you're still completely misunderstanding some of the things I said. I never posited that supersonic speed feats are or should always be accompanied by sonic-booms or shockwaves, for example. I CERTAINLY never said anything as generalized or sweeping (or downright silly and dumb) as "authors need to show sonic booms for a character to be supersonic," which you claim I did say! When you say that, it looks like you're deliberately misquoting me to make me look stupid, biased, and overly-clingy to reason and logic in fictional settings. I do not appreciate my views being deliberately misconstrued like that. In actuality, I simply pointed-out that in this particular series, the one time the author made a POINT of showing a character as being definitely, for-sure supersonic, her movement was accompanied by very noticable sonic-booms that the main character was completely unfamiliar with. I was pointing out as well that this series has an EXTREME degree of internal consistency, the author is obsessive and meticulous to a fault about his work after-all. I sincerely doubt that he would show what he intends to be interpreted as supersonic-level movement without showing it accompanied by a sonic boom, when he made SUCH a huge point of the sonic-booms being there in the fight with Rosine (to the point that they were a huge part of what made the fight so difficult for Guts and thus were truly significant to the plot in that part of the story).

You say the people around Wyald would definitely have seen the free-fall if he'd thrown the guy. That doesn't necessarily have to be true, not if the initial throw was still so fast that the human eye could not follow it (still only requiring subsonic speed), so that it would take some time for people to even realize what had happened and then register the man impaled on the tower. The whole free-fall probably took at MOST three to five seconds, a short enough time for everyone to stand there dazed and confused before registering what had just happened.

You also chose to completely ignore what I pointed out about the wood-block manacle restricting Wyald's hands in that scene, which should severely restrict (if not render impossible) his ability to do what many have posited and actually grab the guy and carry him to the top of the tower. The manacles remain unbroken at the end of the scene. That more than anything indicates to ME that he HIT the guy with a two-handed blow in order to send him flying into the air to land on top of the tower.

You are also underestimating the intelligence of this particular author. "I doubt the author has any understanding of just how fast sonic speed even is." That would be true of most mangakas, but NOT of Kentaro Miura, he is very meticulous and does research things. I'm a huge fanboy and have read a lot of author-interviews and stuff. He's the kind of guy where if he's going to be depicting a character like Rosine moving and creating sonic booms, he'll actually research the phenomenon of sonic-booms before drawing the scene.

But if people really are all of the opinion that I'm the only one who's possibly wrong here and just some big stupid idiot who has no idea what he's really talking about, then I guess just close the thread.

It IS true that the last lightning-feat, the one with using the sword as a lightning-rod, does seem to potentially go against some of what I've been saying, if Kentaro Miura really did intend to show Guts completely moving the sword from one side of his body to the other during the time it took the lightning to travel towards him after already being fired, then yeah, that's hypersonic, as preposterous as it seems. Still seems totally inconsistent to me though with all the clearly-non-hypersonic, barely-subsonic stuff (stuff like crossbow-bolts) that Guts HASN'T managed to dodge or block in the past, almost like these lightning feats could actually be outliers.

But again, if other guys on here have the majority opinion that I really do just sound like an idiot, I'll just drop it and you guys can go on and close the thread and let me keep believing Wyald threw that guy and that everybody in Berserk is subsonic, while you guys can all go on believing they're hypersonic.

 

[Alakabamm]

He can throw the guy and still be hypersonic, you know.

The distance he would have to throw him in the timespan he did would still be quite a bit above supersonic. Human eyesight range is large from a distance.

That point above Rosa still doesn't show me she is *just* supersonic and when I talk about applying shockwaves I of course mean to Berserk as well.

You can perfectly well grapple someone who is not resisting with your hands held together if you have inhuman strength.

Also, 3-5 seconds is long and there is no calc you are putting out for that so I don't really have any reason to believe it would be as small as 3-5 seconds.

Also, shorten your responses.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Let's just drop it then, for the purposes of this site's standards we can say that you have more evidence for your claims. As a hardcore Berserk fan with my own opinions on the series and how to interpret the events in it, I'll go on believing what I want to about the speed-tiers, but we'll just keep them as they are on here. Since I am such a huge Berserk and Guts fanboy I suppose I can't complain TOO much about him having a better chance in some Vs-battles due to having a higher speed-tier. . .so whatever.

Sorry I ever brought it up I guess. Ugh. And sorry for being so long-winded.

 

[Alakabamm]

Its OK