Ben 10: High 6-A, possibly Low 5-B? upgrade.

[Reiner04]

Are we insinuating that Ben getting revived made him way stronger or something?

Yup since he fodderised vilgax and kinda surpassed him in that instant.

 

[Reiner04]

Didn’t notice it before but I’m not sure on Ultimate Hugh being 10x full-size Hugh.

I think that one can see it that way, he might be stronger than base humungausaur- but as far as I know we treat such statements to be applied on characters overall strength unless specified to be restricted in one way or another.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Yup since he fodderised vilgax and kinda surpassed him in that instant.

Maybe, but I do want to note that full-size Hugh went from tanking Vilgax’s eye beam to apparently getting one-shot by a punch he was countering with his own punch. I don’t think that makes sense, especially when Jetray took multiple hits from that same Vilgax and Vilgax couldn’t break through being frozen by Big Chill without his eye beams.

 

[Reiner04]

Maybe, but I do want to note that full-size Hugh went from tanking Vilgax’s eye beam to apparently getting one-shot by a punch he was countering with his own punch. I don’t think that makes sense, especially when Jetray took multiple hits from that same Vilgax and Vilgax couldn’t break through being frozen by Big Chill without his eye beams.

I think it was more off that Vilgax overwhelmed him, he didn't really made full sized humungausaur unconscious or killed him but rather just restricted him with his feet. Jetray might be 7 times weaker than full grown humungausaur, so he can tank few hits as per one shot gap, which varies from 6 times to 20 times. It currently being revised to 14 times or so and this not an issue. Also that fiction sometimes ignores one shotting characters due to huge power gap and just try to show the gap in some manner that is useful for the plot (him fodderising full sized humungausaur).

 

[Reiner04]

OS characters 6.21 Exatons (High 6-A) (because of scaling to fourarms who somewhat broke bigticks shell and canonbolt surviving bigticks internal explosion which broke his shell again), Teen era based ben Aliens scales to prime AF vilgax who was 10× than before, so 62.1 Exatons (5-C), In the same episode of vengeance of vilgax ben surpassed vilgax in base as he was able to defeat him with diamond hand, increase in size is proportional to strengt so that makes full sized humungausaur 310.5 exatons (5-C+), (No one scales to full grown humungausaur directly), Ultimate Greg 434.7 Exatons (Low 5-B) and Ultimate Hugh 3105 Exatons (Low 5-B).

Possibly rating due to galvanic Mechamorph feat will follow the same results and multipliers from OS to end.

snip

Snip

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Opinion?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I think it was more off that Vilgax overwhelmed him, he didn't really made full sized humungausaur unconscious or killed him but rather just restricted him with his feet. Jetray might be 7 times weaker than full grown humungausaur, so he can tank few hits as per one shot gap, which varies from 6 times to 20 times. It currently being revised to 14 times or so and this not an issue. Also that fiction sometimes ignores one shotting characters due to huge power gap and just try to show the gap in some manner that is useful for the plot (him fodderising full sized humungausaur).

It’s weird because after the smoke clears from that punch you see Vilgax subduing normal-size Hugh. Comparing that to Vilgax’s eye beams not affecting Hugh at all and Vilgax going out of his way to block Jetray’s blasts, it really doesn’t make much sense. They also don’t mention anything about Ben getting stronger after he’s revived, so I’m more inclined to put Vilgax beating full-size Hugh as an outlier. I’ll see what other people think though.

I think that one can see it that way, he might be stronger than base humungausaur- but as far as I know we treat such statements to be applied on characters overall strength unless specified to be restricted in one way or another.

I guess it depends on Ultimate Hugh’s showings. I think 10x base is more reasonable but I don’t mind either way.

 

[Reiner04]

It’s weird because after the smoke clears from that punch you see Vilgax subduing normal-size Hugh. Comparing that to Vilgax’s eye beams not affecting Hugh at all and Vilgax going out of his way to block Jetray’s blasts, it really doesn’t make much sense. They also don’t mention anything about Ben getting stronger after he’s revived, so I’m more inclined to put Vilgax beating full-size Hugh as an outlier. I’ll see what other people think though.

I can see the point but I do really think that him beating full sized one were one of few instances were series wanted to establish the power gap and how strong he's. Take feedback absorbing bigbang itself for instance- goop holding Piscciss, Upchuck's eating their planet-, while him blocking Jetray attack can be said to have him trying to defend himself, it can also be explained as vilgax character on how he fights to particular types of Aliens (he's a warlord), him not being able to go off of Bigchill ice restraining can be explained on basis of Heatblast restraining lucubra vilgax where he explained that if vilgax can't move his muscles, he won't be able to use his strength (pretty much Force = m*a type of thing)

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I can see the point but I do really think that him beating full sized one were one of few instances were series wanted to establish the power gap and how strong he's. Take feedback absorbing bigbang itself for instance- goop holding Piscciss, Upchuck's eating their planet-, while him blocking Jetray attack can be said to have him trying to defend himself, it can also be explained as vilgax character on how he fights to particular types of Aliens (he's a warlord), him not being able to go off of Bigchill ice restraining can be explained on basis of Heatblast restraining lucubra vilgax where he explained that if vilgax can't move his muscles, he won't be able to use his strength (pretty much Force = m*a type of thing)

True with the Big Chill and Heatblast comparison, but still idk. I guess functionally it only affects the Highbreed arc stuff, but it still feels weird for Vilgax to fodderise full-size Hugh only to lose to Diamondhead due to an unmentioned power-up that for some reason affects the entire verse. Or maybe it’s just the Celestialsapiens messing around lol

 

[Reiner04]

You know if I take Galvan B size 6 times of our moon as Duncan said, then we won't have to consider UA humungausaur being comparable to Ascalon as an outlier anymore.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

You know if I take Galvan B size 6 times of our moon as Duncan said, then we won't have to consider UA humungausaur being comparable to Ascalon as an outlier anymore.

That would also line up with Malware’s statement, but it would be a pretty big jump for something that’s already a decent bit higher than the High 6-A feats.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

That would also upscale Ultimate Way Big, Dagon and fourth form Malware to Low 4-C, as Way Big would be 10x the Ascalon feat which is around 700 Ronnatons.

 

[Reiner04]

Ultimate waybig scales to super sized Dagon, so he should be low 4-C either way. Considering as per standards strength is directly proportional to size.

 

[Reiner04]

Normal Dagon scales Above waybig (and UA waybig), supersized Dagon is 5 times of UA waybig who's in turn 3 times of waybig (in size). That would mean Dagon is 15×700 Ronnatons, and in turn, UA waybig.

 

[Spectral69420]

Is normal Dagon his original dragon form?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Normal Dagon scales Above waybig (and UA waybig), supersized Dagon is 5 times of UA waybig who's in turn 3 times of waybig. That would mean Dagon is 15×700 Ronnatons, and in turn, UA waybig.

Is that how it works? I thought it was just if the user grew their size as a power-up like with Humungousaur.

If that is how it works then it would be based on 7 Quettatons as Ultimate Kevin has 1/10th To’kustar and would be scaling to Ascalon, making Dagon 105 Quettatons.

 

[Reiner04]

Is normal Dagon his original dragon form?

Well, considering he usually stays in that form, maybe?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Is normal Dagon his original dragon form?

Personally I see the super big Dagon as his true form and the Dragon as a physical avatar of sorts. That‘s how he has a physical heart despite being a pure energy being.

 

[Reiner04]

Is that how it works? I thought it was just if the user grew their size as a power-up like with Humungousaur.

Size manp standard says that size is directly proportional to strength usually. Also considering Dagon wanted to show him his inferiority, it's makes more sense that he was showing his strength by size.

 

[Spectral69420]

Is there any actual way to quantify how much larger Ult Waybig is than his normal counterpart? Hee suffers from height inconsistency p sure since later on when he drags Dagon to the dam I could swear he shrunk massively.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Size manp standard says that size is directly proportional to strength usually. Also considering Dagon wanted to show him his inferiority, it's makes more sense that he was showing his strength by size.

If that’s how it works then sure.

Btw doesn’t that mean that Dagon gets upgraded regardless due to being 15x Way Big, making him either 3 Quettatons or 10.5 Quettatons (depending on if Way Big scales to George rn or not)?

Is there any actual way to quantify how much larger Ult Waybig is than his normal counterpart? Hee suffers from height inconsistency p sure since later on when he drags Dagon to the dam I could swear he shrunk massively.

I assume you’d just look at the growth that happens during the transformation.

 

[Spectral69420]

I've pixel scaled Dagon's size before (Assuming UWB is 3x larger) and ended up with around 6km

 

[Reiner04]

I've pixel scaled Dagon's size before (Assuming UWB is 3x larger) and ended up with around 6km

Hmmm his overall size is not needed but rather how big he's in comparison to UA waybig (as in 5, 6 or 7 times?)

 

[Spectral69420]

He'd be approximatley 25 times larger than Ult Waybig

 

[Reiner04]

 

[Reiner04]

Okay i rewatched the episode, I don't think UA waybig can scale to supersized Dagon, which is his usual form. He's getting L from shrunken dagon so yeah. Only Dagon will be getting 25 times of UA waybig.

And UA waybig scaling depends on how big he's from waybig.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Okay i rewatched the episode, I don't think UA waybig can scale to supersized Dagon, which is his usual form. He's getting L from shrunken dagon so yeah. Only Dagon will be getting 25 times of UA waybig.

And UA waybig scaling depends on how big he's from waybig.

Does Way Big currently scale to Sir George or no?

 

[Spectral69420]

Does Way Big currently scale to Sir George or no?

No, Ult Waybig does tho I'm p sure. Regular Waybig scales to this

 

[Ghengiroo115]

No, Ult Waybig does tho I'm p sure

OK so Dagon would be around 5 Quettatons then, or around 175 Quettatons if 6 times Moon calc is accepted (which I severely doubt but hey)

 

[Reiner04]

6 times Moon calc is accepted (which I severely doubt but hey)

Technically, author stated or official sizes are >>>> pixel scaling one in case of inconsistency afaik. It only DOTA when show stated sizes gets contradicted. So it's more likely other way around, but that's for other day.

UA waybig is 3.5 times of waybig. So 3.5 times of his AP ig.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Technically, author stated or official sizes are >>>> pixel scaling one in case of inconsistency afaik. It only DOTA when show stated sizes gets contradicted. So it's more likely other way around, but that's for other day.

UA waybig is 3.5 times of waybig. So 3.5 times of his AP ig.

OK good to know. Should we summarise that scaling chain here or just save it for a different thread?

I also feel the size stuff is kinda derailing and should be saved for another time, so we should probably get back on track.

 

[Reiner04]

OK good to know. Should we summarise that scaling chain here or just save it for a different thread?

I think it's better to conclude this one with all of scaling chain and update profiles. Since I've not done calc yet and also that nothing can be said about how long it'll take calcs to get accepted (it can take from months to sometimes year lol)

 

[Spectral69420]

Waybig = 203.55 Ronnatons
UA Waybig = x3 which would be 712.425 Ronnatons
Supersized Dagon = 25x which would be 17810.625 Ronnatons or 17.810625 Quettatons (Low 4-C)

 

[Spectral69420]

Just realized this is kinda derailed we should continue in general discussion instead lol

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I think it's better to conclude this one with all of scaling chain and update profiles. Since I've not done calc yet and also that nothing can be said about how long it'll take calcs to get accepted (it can take from months to sometimes year lol)

Yeah makes sense, since we need the Mechamorph calc to support Ultimate Hugh scaling to Ascalon.

Just realized this is kinda derailed we should continue in general discussion instead lol

Agreed lol, let’s get back on track.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

So to summarise (it might be best to add this all to the OP to catch up anyone just joining in):

The scaling chain:

• Teen era characters scale 10x above OS characters due to Vilgax being stated to be 10x stronger in AF [insert image here] and him absorbing the power of 10 heroes.
• Echo Echo is 1/3rd this value, as 3 Echo Echos is currently accepted as equal to Diamondhead.
• Omniverse Kevin 11 is at least 17x OS characters for his AP, as he visually has the powers of at least seven combat-applicable Aliens. However he should also have at least 19x Durability based on him having Ball Weevil and The Worst’s DNA.
• Full-size Humungousaur and D’Void are 50x OS characters, due to the former being 5x the size and the latter fighting him.
• Ultimate Greg is 70x in AP and at least 70x in Durability. AP consists of himself, his staff and the Andromeda Five, while his Durability consists of himself, the Andromeda Five and P’andor’s containment suit. While base Aggregor’s AP is currently Unknown, he should be upgraded to 5-C due to being comparable to Kevin and having 5-C Durability feats.
• Ultimate Humungousaur is 10x his base due to a statement [insert image here] and him downscaling from Ultimate Kevin. However we haven’t decided if he’s 10x base size or 10x full-size (the former would make him 100x OS characters while the latter would make him 500x OS characters).
• Ultimate Kevin, Ultimate Echo Echo and Michael Morningstar’s peak would all be either over 140x or over 500x OS characters, depending on where Ultimate Humungousaur scales.

Of course there is still the question of whether Ben’s revival should be considered a 10x boost or if Vilgax defeating full-size Humungousaur is an outlier. Like I said I would personally argue the latter as full-size Hugh tanks Vilgax’s eye beam, Jetray’s blasts seemed to threaten Vilgax and Jetray survived multiple attacks from Vilgax despite being physically much weaker than full-size Hugh. Vilgax seemingly on-shotting full-size Hugh also implies that Highbreed arc Ben is comparable to (if not weaker than) OS Ben, which makes no sense.

 

[Reiner04]

Added.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Should I make sandboxes for characters who’ll need their profile structures changed? I know one is Albedo, and there might be others too.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Could you argue that Upgrade can reach 5x his base with tech from him fighting OTTO Gestalt? OTTO Gestalt is a giant Megazord-like mech that’s the combination of the Proto-TRUK, a Taydenite car and three other alien cars.

 

[Reiner04]

Should I make sandboxes for characters who’ll need their profile structures changed? I know one is Albedo, and there might be others too.

Well sure.

Could you argue that Upgrade can reach 5x his base with tech from him fighting OTTO Gestalt? OTTO Gestalt is a giant Megazord-like mech that’s the combination of the Proto-TRUK, a Taydenite car and three other alien cars.

I mean yeah? Upgrade can go as high as much the tech to upgrade.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Well sure.

I’ll do that, then. It’s also a good opportunity to finally give Feedback an OS key.

I mean yeah? Upgrade can go as high as much the tech to upgrade.

OK cool

I know you don’t think Rex should be affected by this upgrade, but wouldn’t Upgraded Rex and Alpha-Omega at least scale? Ignore how Alpha doesn’t have a profile