Ben 10 General Discussion Thread

[Spilxson2]

15 and 16 year old ben can also change while transformed

I'm pretty sure Ben 10K made 10 year old Ben change while transformed but that was a one time thing

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Are these feats acceptable ?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Are these feats acceptable ?

Which feats exactly?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Which feats exactly?

All of them, or any feat that can be used for an upgrade. Like Four Arms punching Gwen's energy attack(13:19)

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

 

[NXCHT.66]

Alien X and CPs minor Additions

Shockwave Generation : Causes multiple Shockwave while fighting Galactic Gladiator [Shown Here] ← (Imgur link, pls click to view) Self-Sustenance (Type 2) : what is stated. Celestialsapien's personalities have to agree with each other for the Celestialsapien to perform any sort of action and...

vsbattles.com

 

[GeneralSol16]

Hi, everybody.

I've a question regarding the PS: Why does Malgax scale to 4th Form Malware? If in the end the Mechamorphs returned him to his base form from of when he destroyed Galvan B

 

[Spilxson2]

Hi, everybody.

I've a question regarding the PS: Why does Malgax scale to 4th Form Malware? If in the end the Mechamorphs returned him to his base form from of when he destroyed Galvan B

If I remember correctly he stomped Diamondhead and then fought Atomix, who's 4-B/4-A

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Hi, everybody.

I've a question regarding the PS: Why does Malgax scale to 4th Form Malware? If in the end the Mechamorphs returned him to his base form from of when he destroyed Galvan B

It’s actually supposed to mainly be Malware that scales to Malgax, but the justifications on the profiles don’t really express that for some reason (should probably be fixed).

Basically based on Malgax’s multiple superiority statements and how easily he defeats the likes of Atomix and Diamondhead, he’s obviously way stronger than a fusion of Vilgax and regular third form Malware should “logically” be (especially since Vilgax is pretty weak relative to most characters in OV). However since Mechamorphs have shown the ability to copy stuff they’ve previously merged with before, the assumption used to explain this weird power jump is that Malgax used a similar ability to replicate Malware’s peak strength. This leads to fourth form Malware scaling to Malgax as its his power that’s used, which is kinda supported by Malware absorbing a lot of Galvan stuff during Showdown.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Y’know I was about to ask something like “could true form Vilgax scale above Ultimate Humungousaur or Way Big based on how confident he was?”, but then I remembered even if they were way stronger they would be pretty helpless underwater. Oh well.

 

[Spilxson2]

Y’know I was about to ask something like “could true form Vilgax scale above Ultimate Humungousaur or Way Big based on how confident he was?”, but then I remembered even if they were way stronger they would be pretty helpless underwater. Oh well.

He could probably scale to Ultimate Swampfire who's just further into 5-A than Ben's normal aliens. Something like "5-A, higher in his true form"

 

[Ghengiroo115]

He could probably scale to Ultimate Swampfire who's just further into 5-A than Ben's normal aliens. Something like "5-A, higher in his true form"

Yeah probably that would work best. The reason that thought about Way Big came into my head was because of that one instance in Primus where Vilgax randomly turned giant from the Codon Stream and fought with Way Big, and I though “huh, it’s kinda weird that based on scaling this one completely random power-up halfway through the season is way stronger than Vilgax’s natural final form”. Then again true form Vilgax is also a completely random power-up lol so who cares.

 

[GeneralSol16]

@Ghengiroo115
Sorry for tagging you, but I don't know how to answer to specific messages.

That wouldn't make Base Way Big at the same level as Ultimate Way Big? I mean, circular PS: "Malware 4th Form > Way Big > Malware 3th form > Malgax >/= Atomix >> Eatle </= Herald Vilgax > Ascalon > Base Way Big"

I mean, I have an argument of OV Aliens being the strongest versions of Ben's aliens (even UA Ultimates), but that's another thing.



.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

@Ghengiroo115
Sorry for tagging you, but I don't know how to answer to specific messages.

No worries, you can do it by highlighting the thing you want to reply to and then clicking the reply option that pops under it. Btw when regular users tag someone it doesn’t notify them (only if staff do it).

That wouldn't make Base Way Big at the same level as Ultimate Way Big? I mean, circular PS: "Malware 4th Form > Way Big > Malware 3th form > Malgax >/= Atomix >> Eatle </= Herald Vilgax > Ascalon > Base Way Big"

Malgax is accepted to scale above Way Big as well as every other alien (except Alien X) based on his statements of being too strong for Ben to defeat and Atomix’s statement about being the second strongest alien, so Malgax would be between Malware 4 and Way Big here.

I mean, I have an argument of OV Aliens being the strongest versions of Ben's aliens (even UA Ultimates), but that's another thing.

Interesting…

 

[GeneralSol16]

No worries, you can do it by highlighting the thing you want to reply to and then clicking the reply option that pops under it. Btw when regular users tag someone it doesn’t notify them (only if staff do it).
Ohh, I see. Thanks!

Malgax is accepted to scale above Way Big as well as every other alien (except Alien X) based on his statements of being too strong for Ben to defeat and Atomix’s statement about being the second strongest alien, so Malgax would be between Malware 4 and Way Big here

Uhm, all right.
But that's funny, because Ben beat him with Feedback, and it's not like Vilgax fought against UA or OV aliens aside from Eatle and Humungousaur, but meh, Eatle scales above 87% of Ben's aliens when he is recharged.

Interesting…

Yep, it's based on the concept of "Ben's aliens are the Apex of the species", And that s only for OV aliens

 

[Spilxson2]

Isn't every Omnitrix transformation just x alien but in its physical prime? I'm pretty sure that's why Wildmutt looked a lot better/healthier than the other Vulpimancers in OS, why Kickin Hawk looked so much stronger than Liam, and why Four Arms was able to fight evenly with Looma despite female Tetramands being stronger. I don't know if the "prime" thing is exclusive to OV

 

[GeneralSol16]

Isn't every Omnitrix transformation just x alien but in its physical prime?

Not at all.
In OS, AF and UA, Ben's aliens were related to his age: [OS - UAF aliens https://imgur.com/gallery/gQW2Kwv].
But, the things are different in OV:

1. Derrick J Wyatt mentions that from his point of view, the Definive Omnitrix makes Ben's aliens in OV the Apex of the race, the equivalent of the species "superhero" - https://imgur.com/gallery/kcwuZho

• 1.1:
• This is supported by the statement of Matt Wayne, who in the Omniverse era establishes that the Omnitrix aliens are optimized adult versions of the species - https://ben10.fandom.com/wiki/File:Omnitrix_Aliens_are_Optimized_Adults.png

2. Throughout the series, Ben spent his time defeating the top exponents of each specimen, such as Looma, Attea and Lord Transyl.
A) Four Arms vs Looma -
B) Bullfrag vs Attea -
C) Whampire vs Lord Transyl [0:40] -
In contrast to previous series, where simply older members of Ben's species were capable of humiliating him
D) Four Arms vs Kolar, an adult Tetramand [0:50] -
E) Diamondhead vs Tetrax, an adult Petrosapien [0:45] -

3. The Omnitrix transforms Ben into the maximum specimen regardless of Ben, seen when he was rejuvenated to 11 years old again, and his aliens looked exactly the same, unlike the OS, where when rejuvenated his aliens were affected.
A) Ball Weevil remains the same - https://youtu.be/H0Kdzw9rtEU?feature=shared
B) Bloxx remains the same - https://youtu.be/lDtNJAk6qmM?feature=shared

4. Ben's transformations reached their maximum possible point in OV, contrasting with previous series, where it was seen that adult versions of his transformations were in an inferior state.
A) Swampfire reaches its maximum form [3:30] - https://youtu.be/X6UsmyjoKlA?feature=shared
B) A form that even adult versions of the same species failed to achieve - ht
tps://youtu.be/ZzO7liWX73c?feature=shared

I'm pretty sure that's why Wildmutt looked a lot better/healthier than the other Vulpimancers in OS

They were only adults, but, also, another subspecies, because only the Null Void's Vulpimanvers looked like that.

Why Kickin Hawk looked so much stronger than Liam, and why Four Arms was able to fight evenly with Looma despite female Tetramands being stronger. I don't know if the "prime" thing is exclusive to OV

All that cases are from OV, so, yeah

 

[BlastX]

The aliens weren't aged down visibly because a lot of Ben's aliens look the same regardless if they're 11 or 16 years old, Ben was aged down to 11.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

4. Ben's transformations reached their maximum possible point in OV, contrasting with previous series, where it was seen that adult versions of his transformations were in an inferior state.
A) Swampfire reaches its maximum form [3:30] -
B) A form that even adult versions of the same species failed to achieve - ht
tps://youtu.be/ZzO7liWX73c?feature=shared

Wait is it confirmed that Swamps is an adult Methanosian? If so then that’s really interesting that not all Methanosians blossom, and also makes blossomed Swampfire’s semi-vague Alpha Rune/Whampire scaling a bit more logical since it wouldn’t be a state every Methanosian has access to.

 

[BlastX]

It's very likely it was a retcon and just an excuse to swap out his design.

 

[GeneralSol16]

The aliens weren't aged down visibly because a lot of Ben's aliens look the same regardless if they're 11 or 16 years old, Ben was aged down to 11.

True, but even then, the aliens had a little design differences (like Feedback's "plugs" on his shoulders, Clockwork face expression or the overall size), but here they looked exactly the same, nothing changed.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

It's very likely it was a retcon and just an excuse to swap out his design.

Maybe, but Swampfire is very different from every other major redesign in that he has a whole episode dedicated to it. Other characters like Shocksquatch and Eatle had major biological changes between UA and OV with no explanation, while Chromastone had a (functionally identical) redesign through OV itself with also no explanation. Since they took the effort to explain Swampfrie’s new appearance at all I’d prefer to find an explanation that doesn’t break everything, like what I’ve tried to do with the mess that is Eon.

Or I just blame it on the star dudes, idk

 

[BlastX]

I mean there's also aliens like Diamondhead, Wildmutt, Blitzwolfer, Upchuck, Heatblast, Way Big Stinkfly, etc. That look the same in either 11 or 16 year old with the only change being their clothes color, obviously the ones used by aged down Ben wouldn't change since he wears the same clothes.

Plus they looked a bit smaller than usual in the episode.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Wait is it confirmed that Swamps is an adult Methanosian? If so then that’s really interesting that not all Methanosians blossom, and also makes blossomed Swampfire’s semi-vague Alpha Rune/Whampire scaling a bit more logical since it wouldn’t be a state every Methanosian has access to.

Well, not directly confirmed, but he definitely looked older than Ben, the same with the big.
Also, it wouldn't make sense to hire kids or teenagers, if Albedo wanted to use them all the time he needed, because, well, teen aliens are normally seen doing "normal Earth" thing, especially ones who share some intellect beyond basic instincts

But anyways. What do you think about the other points I've made?

 

[BlastX]

Swamps could just be a late bloomer too...

Eh? Eh?

 

[GeneralSol16]

damn

 

[Spilxson2]

Diamondhead losing to Tetrax is most likely because a prime 10 year old Petrosapien wouldn't be as strong as one as old as Tetrax. Tetrax is also a lot more experienced and trained under Vilgax. He even states that at that point in the series Ben never even scratched the surface of the Omnitrix's potential

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Well, not directly confirmed, but he definitely looked older than Ben, the same with the big.
Also, it wouldn't make sense to hire kids or teenagers, if Albedo wanted to use them all the time he needed, because, well, teen aliens are normally seen doing "normal Earth" thing, especially ones who share some intellect beyond basic instincts

Ah, I see where you’re coming from.

But anyways. What do you think about the other points I've made?

I need more time to think about it, but you make some interesting points.

I will say though that I don’t think this would include the Ultimates by default, as they’re technically different species. It would also make the scaling really goofy as you’d have Trombipulor and the Way Bads be Dagon level, although Ben 10 power creep is already goofy as is so eh.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Ah, I see where you’re coming from.


I need more time to think about it, but you make some interesting points.

I will say though that I don’t think this would include the Ultimates by default, as they’re technically different species. It would also make the scaling really goofy as you’d have Trombipulor and the Way Bads be Dagon level, although Ben 10 power creep is already goofy as is so eh.

Well, it would be like Dragon Ball, some randoms are stronger than the final boss of the previous arc lol

And that's only for Amped Trombipulor and Genetically modified To'kustar, so not so random I guess.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Diamondhead losing to Tetrax is most likely because a prime 10 year old Petrosapien wouldn't be as strong as one as old as Tetrax. Tetrax is also a lot more experienced and trained under Vilgax. He even states that at that point in the series Ben never even scratched the surface of the Omnitrix's potential

The thing is that it was never confirmed that they're Peak, not until OV.

 

[Spilxson2]

The thing is that it was never confirmed that they're Peak, not until OV.

It's not like there are that many anti feats in OS. A prime 10 year old losing to an adult from the same species that is older and has gone through much more combat training makes sense. Like if Gwen was for some reason stated to be an Anodite in OV, that doesn't mean that from OS to UAF she just wasn't an Anodite

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Well, it would be like Dragon Ball, some randoms are stronger than the final boss of the previous arc lol

And that's only for Amped Trombipulor and Genetically modified To'kustar, so not so random I guess.

Yeah it could go either way tbh, like I said Ben 10 power creep is already so goofy that base teen Ben unironically outscales the entirety of OS barring Way Big and the future characters.

Though regardless of the logistics of OV Way Big = Dagon I still don’t think the Aliens should by default be over the Ultimates. It also begs the question of whether every other character would be Tier 4 or not, since rn they’re downscaling from Ultimate Humungousaur who downscales from Ultimate Kevin who downscales from Way Big.

 

[GeneralSol16]

It's not like there are that many anti feats in OS. A prime 10 year old losing to an adult from the same species that is older and has gone through much more combat training makes sense. Like if Gwen was for some reason stated to be an Anodite in OV, that doesn't mean that from OS to UAF she just wasn't an Anodite

It's different, tho.
Ben went through very different devices, some of them very different from each other until getting to, literally, the definitive version. So OS & UAF versions being the same as OV ones under the argument of "Nothing changed at all" wouldn't be so correct.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Yeah it could go either way tbh, like I said Ben 10 power creep is already so goofy that base teen Ben unironically outscales the entirety of OS barring Way Big and the future characters.

Though regardless of the logistics of OV Way Big = Dagon I still don’t think the Aliens should by default be over the Ultimates. It also begs the question of whether every other character would be Tier 4 or not, since rn they’re downscaling from Ultimate Humungousaur who downscales from Ultimate Kevin who downscales from Way Big.

Well, not at all

Because they would only downscale from UAF Way Big, not from OV Way Big, the one who would be Tier 4.

Basically:
OV / UF Way Big > UAF Way Big.
Kevin 1/10th UAF Way Big.
And so on.

 

[BlastX]

Yeah it could go either way tbh, like I said Ben 10 power creep is already so goofy that base teen Ben unironically outscales the entirety of OS barring Way Big and the future characters.

Though regardless of the logistics of OV Way Big = Dagon I still don’t think the Aliens should by default be over the Ultimates. It also begs the question of whether every other character would be Tier 4 or not, since rn they’re downscaling from Ultimate Humungousaur who downscales from Ultimate Kevin who downscales from Way Big.

They really shouldn't be, the Ultimates basically went through a 10.000 year worst case simulation, they're Hyper Evolved, by default they should be way above the prime of their species.

 

[GeneralSol16]

They really shouldn't be, the Ultimates basically went through a 10.000 year worst case simulation, they're Hyper Evolved, by default they should be way above the prime of their species.

Albedo said that the process of going ultimate it's just the way to put the form to its "Peak", or, the ultimate form, literally.

The OVTrix does that without needing to evolve or modifie the DNA. And we've seen Ben's aliens in OV beating the equivalent of Mizaru in different species, someone who was at the same level as an Ultimate.

Also, it makes sense for Azmuth to just "buff" the aliens to their peak now that Ben doesn't have the Evolve feature anymore.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Well, not at all

Because they would only downscale from UAF Way Big, not from OV Way Big, the one who would be Tier 4.

Basically:
OV / UF Way Big > UAF Way Big.
Kevin 1/10th UAF Way Big.
And so on.

It’s mainly just the weirdness of Way Big becoming trillions of times stronger while the other aliens don’t really noticeably budge, but eh I disagree with OV Way Big > Ultimate Way Big anyway so I guess it doesn’t really matter to me.

They really shouldn't be, the Ultimates basically went through a 10.000 year worst case simulation, they're Hyper Evolved, by default they should be way above the prime of their species.

Not necessarily, since by their argument the UA Ultimates aren’t a peak Ultimate if that makes sense. While again I really don’t think it’s something we should assume by default, an alien like Big Chill could theoretically be stronger in OV than in his UA Ultimate form since the latter’s power increase is pretty small.

 

[GeneralSol16]

It’s mainly just the weirdness of Way Big becoming trillions of times stronger while the other aliens don’t really noticeably budge

Well, the best feats of the aliens (non-scaling ones) are in OV, like the Mechamorphs fixing the moon.

But eh I disagree with OV Way Big > Ultimate Way Big anyway so I guess it doesn’t really matter to me.

Fair, I guess. But it's a little weird for me to have Atomix, who struggle to defeat a weaker version of the one that Way Big literally liquified just by walking on him.

Not necessarily, since by their argument the UA Ultimates aren’t a peak Ultimate if that makes sense. While again I really don’t think it’s something we should assume by default, an alien like Big Chill could theoretically be stronger in OV than in his UA Ultimate form since the latter’s power increase is pretty small.

Fair.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

An unrelated and sorta random question, but in the blossomed Swampfire episode which between Zs’Skayr and Rock Monster Armour Charmcaster do y’all think had enough energy from the Alpha Rune to be High 3-A? Did Zs’Skayr have enough for High 3-A, did Charmcaster have enough, did both have enough or did for whatever reason neither of them have enough?

 

[GeneralSol16]

Is the speed of the Tachyon particles accepted? Because if I remember correctly, they are MFTL+. Which is consistent with other feats