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Ben 10 Cosmology donwgrade to 6D/7D

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RigelBR7

RigelBR7

He/Him
262
71
I came here to clarify some erroneous quotes and associations in the cosmology of Ben 10 and the "higher dimensions".

First, I want to point out that the "26 dimensions" discussed in cosmology do not have sufficient evidence to be superior, and the scene used in question is counterintuitive.

The first point here is when the Cosmic Mother quotes 'you are a primitive species that perceives only 3 dimensions' and also quotes that 'only 26 are relevant' and finally, quotes that 'with time, the human species would discover and perceive' such dimensions.

When you interpret the scene and the text, you realize that these dimensions being truly superior in a geometric system is completely erroneous and counterintuitive, since it is impossible for 3D beings to perceive, see or evolve to these "higher dimensions", even with technology or biotechnology or anything like that. It is also not shown how this is possible.

It is also worth mentioning that this was a unique episode that was never referenced again in the series except in interviews, and clearly these "26 dimensions" are just referencing the theory of bosonic strings — which extend across 26 dimensions, in addition to the 3 of space that we know, but all of them being compacted and recurved, which can be perceived by the different vibrations of the tiny strings, Quantum particles, different frequencies and complex manifolds.

In fact, there is a superiority here, but it is only a superiority of size and form compared to the universe, which would crush our reality if they were not compacted. These dimensions are not orthogonal and perpendicular to the 3 geometric axes of space, its just additional cosmological dimensions, and this is also not referenced in this episode here. The 26 dimensions are compacted dimensions larger than our reality, and are non-euclidean, they do not follow common euclidean geometry, but still, nothing four-dimensional or above combined axes of geometry, since they are in the same 4D space-time reality that extends parallel to reality, and are not transcendent to each other. These dimensions are similar to the ones Albedo mentions when talking about the Omnitrix, when he references the quantum-gravitational octo-dimension.

Plus, these dimensions are also all related to the MWI featured in Ben 10.

The second point here is when you relate the Omniversal Force, which 'extends in every directions / in all realities' “with axes of geometric space, with the 26 dimensions of the Najilians, and with the Space Beyond.”

Here we are clearly seeing a Association Fallacy.

and

A Hasty Generalization Fallacy.

Because you correlated these two scenes that are not even in the same series and no have more content and similarity, no other evidence that connects these two scenes, and were also associated in a biased way to give an upgrade based on this correlation. The two scenes are not even have similar content.

The sentence itself mentions that the Omniversal Force extends omnidirectionally through all universes, multiverses, timestream and space beyond, at most. A divine energy that encompasses the entire Omniverse, but without any relation to higher dimensions or perpendicular / orthogonal geometric axes that spread throughout the Omniverse, this is not even referenced as dimensions of space-time, but only realities, multiverses and the Omniverse itself.

Even in AF, these dimensions are not mentioned in the multiverse, nor in the timestream or in the Space Beyond. They are irrelevant to cosmology, and not even in Omniverse are they referenced.In fact, the only thing above the timestream is Contumelia, being 5D, the White Void, and the Space Beyond that separates all realities in the Omniverse. Finally, there is the Forge of Creation which would be 6D / 7D at its maximum. No 25D/26D/27D or
anything close to that.

Agree: @TheOrangeGuy09 @Setsuna_tenma @Wikisource

Neutral: @Robo432343 @Arceus0x

Disagree: @Celestial_Scaler25 @Firestorm808
 
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Neutral, likely disagree.
Albedo said that the Omniversal force extends through all of reality, which would include the 26D. He didn't say it stretched through the multiverse. He said it stretched passed the multiverse into an Omniversal force.

No where was it ever stated that the 26D in was in reference to Bosonic String Theory in the show.

I might have no idea what the future has in stored for humanity but humans can't currently perceive higher dimensions due to it serving no true advantage to us. But seeing stars and galaxies from far lightyears worth of distance didn't serve any advantage to ancient human civilizations but here we are looking at them anyway. I don't see any reason why future humans wouldn't want to expand their views.

Also it's been shown in fiction of being seeing, or perceiving, or trancending into higher dimensions. Such as Superman gaining 4th dimensional vision. Honestly limiting fiction to real life is kinda dumb, appeal to reality. Cause by this logic, no character with a physical body should be ftl because it is impossible for physical matter to surpass light speed.
 
I really don't care about the cosmology of the verse, but if I remember correctly, the Cosmic Mom said that they themselves located in higher dimensions, which is enough to prove that these 26 dimensions are not compacted dimensions.

To me, the best argument would be to argue that the Cosmic Mom's statements are unreliable because they only appeared once in the series.

However, as I said, I don't care about the cosmology of verse.
 
Aolphl said:
I really don't care about the cosmology of the verse, but if I remember correctly, the Cosmic Mom said that they themselves located in higher dimensions, which is enough to prove that these 26 dimensions are not compacted dimensions.

To me, the best argument would be to argue that the Cosmic Mom's statements are unreliable because they only appeared once in the series.

However, as I said, I don't care about the cosmology of verse.
Click to expand...
As far as i remember the cosmic mom's statment got back up by some Author statements too soooo it should be reliable enough
 
RigelBR7 said:
since it is impossible for 3D beings to perceive, see or evolve to these "higher dimensions"
Click to expand...
That's not an anti-feat here.
RigelBR7 said:
It is also worth mentioning that this was a unique episode that was never referenced again in the series
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter, it's still canon.
RigelBR7 said:
and clearly these "26 dimensions" are just referencing the theory of bosonic strings — which extend across 26 dimensions, in addition to the 3 of space that we know, but all of them being compacted and recurved, which can be perceived by the different vibrations of the tiny strings, Quantum particles, different frequencies and complex manifolds.
Click to expand...
Except it's not 26, the Naljian says "only 26 matter" meaning there are more, but only 26 are important for unknown reasons.
RigelBR7 said:
The second point here is when you relate the Omniversal Force, which 'extends in every directions / in all realities' “with axes of geometric space, with the 26 dimensions of the Najilians, and with the Space Beyond.”

Here we are clearly seeing a Association Fallacy.

and

A Hasty Generalization Fallacy.
Click to expand...
Except there's no other possible way to take this statement, there are +26 dimensions and the omniversal force extends in all directions infinitely.
RigelBR7 said:
Because you correlated these two scenes that are not even in the same series and no have more content and similarity, no other evidence that connects these two scenes, and were also associated in a biased way to give an upgrade based on this correlation. The two scenes are not even have similar content.
Click to expand...
It's not relevant, Alien Force and Omniverse occur in the same continuity, Alien Force introduces the 26 dimensions, directly comparing them to the already known 3 dimensions. Omniverse says the omniversal force extends in all directions, meaning every direction those +26 axes extend must be infinite in size.
 
RigelBR7 said:
It is also worth mentioning that this was a unique episode that was never referenced again in the series except in interviews, and clearly these "26 dimensions" are just referencing the theory of bosonic strings — which extend across 26 dimensions, in addition to the 3 of space that we know, but all of them being compacted and recurved, which can be perceived by the different vibrations of the tiny strings, Quantum particles, different frequencies and complex manifolds.
Click to expand...
I will respond to this. Personally using Wikipedia for me is already a bad sign you don't know how bosonic actually works. and even if say
say Verse 1 runs off bosonic, you still gotta deal with 26D supergravity, you still have to deal with the strings that make up the electrons that make the 26D possible in the first place. i think if you going to use a fallacy for MWI vise should apply to you trying to relate it to bosonic. I'll help the class out on a decent paper I read for it. at least if we going by wikipedia for sake this should be fine to provide < if its blurry i can always send it on discord and someone else can upload higher quality.
Bosonic still invokes 26D gravity hax so like i don't even see the point of bringing it up even though its "compactified" the reasoning for that is because that fancy machine in france would should them as compactified to our perspective

So i heavily disagree and i think using wikipedia is already a form of you don't know how it works.
 
Celestial_Scaler25 said:
Neutral, likely disagree.
Albedo said that the Omniversal force extends through all of reality, which would include the 26D. He didn't say it stretched through the multiverse. He said it stretched passed the multiverse into an Omniversal force.
Click to expand...
Just a fallacy of association and hasty generalization. There is no connection or correlation with 26D. It is only said that the Omniverse Force extends/expands in all directions and realities. No geometric axes here or citing 26D in conjunction with this. We don't even know if this even extends to the Omniverse and Beyond Space.
Celestial_Scaler25 said:
No where was it ever stated that the 26D in was in reference to Bosonic String Theory in the show.

I might have no idea what the future has in stored for humanity but humans can't currently perceive higher dimensions due to it serving no true advantage to us. But seeing stars and galaxies from far lightyears worth of distance didn't serve any advantage to ancient human civilizations but here we are looking at them anyway. I don't see any reason why future humans wouldn't want to expand their views.

Also it's been shown in fiction of being seeing, or perceiving, or trancending into higher dimensions. Such as Superman gaining 4th dimensional vision. Honestly limiting fiction to real life is kinda dumb, appeal to reality. Cause by this logic, no character with a physical body should be ftl because it is impossible for physical matter to surpass light speed.
Click to expand...
It includes all 26 dimensions or more, but the evidence for superiority is still counterintuitive. There is no reference that proves that these dimensions are infinitely transcendent to each other. There is no evidence that they are perpendicular and combined geometric axes, or anything close to that. As I mentioned, bosonic string theory and quantum gravity, quantum physics in general, is referenced several times in the series. Pointing out quantitative superiority here is clearly a fallacy of association that does not have sufficient evidence, as I said before. I do not deny that Najilians are beings of a higher dimension, but the dimensions mentioned definitily are not.

Dimensions can also work differently in fiction, but not superior in question. The context of the scene and the lines are contradictory. There is a difference between non-Euclidean cosmological dimensions and quantitative higher dimensions.
 
RigelBR7 said:
Just a fallacy of association and hasty generalization. There is no connection or correlation with 26D. It is only said that the Omniverse Force extends/expands in all directions and realities. No geometric axes here or citing 26D in conjunction with this. We don't even know if this even extends to the Omniverse and Beyond Space.
Click to expand...
I'd this it be um hasty generalization to assume bosonic ngl. assuming bosonic is like borderline like appeal to possibility land. But you've not dismissed the fact 26D supergravity needs 26 spatial axis this feels like a very weird argument at hand let alone the fact bosonic talks about 25D+1D = 26D for it to be true so vise still need something to be 4D and vise something to add those 21 additional dimensions.

RigelBR7 said:
It includes all 26 dimensions or more, but the evidence for superiority is still counterintuitive. There is no reference that proves that these dimensions are infinitely transcendent to each other. There is no evidence that they are perpendicular and combined geometric axes, or anything close to that. As I mentioned, bosonic string theory and quantum gravity, quantum physics in general, is referenced several times in the series. Pointing out quantitative superiority here is clearly a fallacy of association that does not have sufficient evidence, as I said before. I do not deny that Najilians are beings of a higher dimension, but the dimensions mentioned definitily are not
Click to expand...
The actual papers of bosonic theory contradict what you say though. Its already a flaw to try and relate it to this one scientific document though, just saying 26D doesn't mean bosonic. bosonic verbatium tells in order to work you still need you know 26D
 
TheShape03 said:
That's not an anti-feat here.

It doesn't matter, it's still canon.

Except it's not 26, the Naljian says "only 26 matter" meaning there are more, but only 26 are important for unknown reasons.

Except there's no other possible way to take this statement, there are +26 dimensions and the omniversal force extends in all directions infinitely.

It's not relevant, Alien Force and Omniverse occur in the same continuity, Alien Force introduces the 26 dimensions, directly comparing them to the already known 3 dimensions. Omniverse says the omniversal force extends in all directions, meaning every direction those +26 axes extend must be infinite in size.
Click to expand...
Even without counter-facts, the quote remains totally contradictory to the scene in general.This also proves that the aforementioned 26 dimensions and more are still stuck in the flow of time. We just don't know if it's the common timeline or the hypertimeline.

She said only 26 matter as it is a clear reference to bosonic Sting theory. And the curved dimensions of M-theory in general can be extended endlessly. It is still a reference. This also implies that the others are irrelevant, denying superiority over them.

Defining that "all directions" of the Omniversal Force are citing and referencing precisely the 26 dimensions, with the intention of making an upgrade is clearly a fallacy. Specifically the fallacy of association and hasty generalization, connecting scenes that have nothing to do with each other and putting them together as a theory. Basically empirical evidence, pseudoscience. The scene itself mentions that the Omniversal force extends across all directions and realities like an expansion. Nothing about geometric axes, 26 orthogonal and perpendicular axes or anything like that related to that. Even the map of infinity has a better quote than this.

I also did not deny that everything is in the same Continuity, but as I already mentioned, relating the two things when there is no evidence is just a fallacy. Even because in AF when the map of infinity, space beyond and timestream is mentioned, these 26 dimensions are not referenced or applied here. Contumélia being only 5D, is already outside of everything, as observers in the White Void, below only the space beyond and the Forge of Creation. Again, the 26 dimensions are not mentioned here, even though they are canonical they are irrelevant to the general cosmology, being only part of references to M-Theory, MWI and general quantum physics. Just like albedo also references UAF.
 
RigelBR7 said:
She said only 26 matter as it is a clear reference to bosonic Sting theory. And the curved dimensions of M-theory in general can be extended endlessly. It is still a reference. This also implies that the others are irrelevant, denying superiority over them.
Click to expand...
Well thats just blatant a fallacy on your part to assume that its a clear reference to bosonic. also bosonic doesn't curve. and you gotta uphold you know INTEGRAL d^26 sqrt(g) R as true. and uphold massless spin 2 gravitons (no idea how you even got that from them just saying 26 dimensions that matter), or how you even got T duality from them saying that, or to be frank anything from bosonic outside them just saying "26 that matter"cool broski bosonic talks about 25D+1D, 26D, 27D lol

bosonic also talks about 26D GR which is kinda funny, tachyons, 26D supergravity you know the drill.

and for M theory dude please stop.


  1. you ain't a scientist and borderline I think limiting a verse because of what they say in these papers is appealing to reality anyways.

    like assuming bosonic is just one massive appeal to possibility
 
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LifeRiderthe1 said:
I'd this it be um hasty generalization to assume bosonic ngl. assuming bosonic is like borderline like appeal to possibility land. But you've not dismissed the fact 26D supergravity needs 26 spatial axis this feels like a very weird argument at hand let alone the fact bosonic talks about 25D+1D = 26D for it to be true so vise still need something to be 4D and vise something to add those 21 additional dimensions.


The actual papers of bosonic theory contradict what you say though. Its already a flaw to try and relate it to this one scientific document though, just saying 26D doesn't mean bosonic. bosonic verbatium tells in order to work you still need you know 26D
Click to expand...
They are not 26 perpendicular geometric axes, and they are not truly higher dimensions. They just have a non-Euclidean geometry that extends across the 4D space-time reality. Where did you find this? And anyway it continues to be contradictory because Contumélia / White Void / Space Beyond is above. Being only 5D / 6D.
 
RigelBR7 said:
Just a fallacy of association and hasty generalization. There is no connection or correlation with 26D. It is only said that the Omniverse Force extends/expands in all directions and realities. No geometric axes here or citing 26D in conjunction with this. We don't even know if this even extends to the Omniverse and Beyond Space.
Click to expand...
Yes we do. Albedo straight up said that it extends past the Multiverse and into the Omniverse as he states.
He says that the Omniversal force extends through all of reality, prove that the 26D isn't part of reality, otherwise the Omniversal force will extends through it as well.
RigelBR7 said:
It includes all 26 dimensions or more, but the evidence for superiority is still counterintuitive. There is no reference that proves that these dimensions are infinitely transcendent to each other. There is no evidence that they are perpendicular and combined geometric axes, or anything close to that. As I mentioned, bosonic string theory and quantum gravity, quantum physics in general, is referenced several times in the series. Pointing out quantitative superiority here is clearly a fallacy of association that does not have sufficient evidence, as I said before. I do not deny that Najilians are beings of a higher dimension, but the dimensions mentioned definitily are not.
Click to expand...
That seems kinda misinterpreted. The reason humans can't see higher dimensions is because we can't perceive beyond the traditional 3 coordinate spaces. Thus, these 26D the Nalgians mentioned, possess additional coordinates.

Don't see why the topic of Bosonic String Theory keeps getting brought up. The BST caps at 26D, while even if less relevant to Ben and humanity, Nalgians flat out admitted higher dimensions beyond the mention 26D.
 
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RigelBR7 said:
They are not 26 perpendicular geometric axes, and they are not truly higher dimensions. They just have a non-Euclidean geometry that extends across the 4D space-time reality. Where did you find this? And anyway it continues to be contradictory because Contumélia / White Void / Space Beyond is above. Being only 5D / 6D.
Click to expand...
Wdym "they are not 26 perpedicular geometric axis" did you even read the scan i sent. WDYM "where did i find this." did you even read anything about bosonic. Its not "non-euclidean geometry". unless you referring to like something from Chern-Simons theory.

"the size scale of dimensions off Bosonic String Theory?
Represent the size scale of each dimension as a radius R, with R-infinity representing a flat large-scale dimension. Let Lpl denotethe Planck length, the size of the lattice spacing in
the HyperDiamondLattice version of the D4-D5-E6-E7-E8VoDou Physics model. Joseph Polchinski says ".. as R infinity winding states become infinitely massive, while the
compactmomenta go over to a continuous spectrum...at the opposite limit R->0. the states with compact momentum become infinitelymassive, but the spectrum of winding
states approaches acontinuum... it does not cost much energy to wrap a string around asmall circle. Thus as the radius goes to zero the spectrum againseems to approach that
of a noncompact dimension.... In fact, theR-0 and R infinity limits are physically identical. The spectrum is invariant under...{
R->R-(Lply^2/R"
Okay, Contumelia / white / space beyond can be 5D or 6D that doesn't dismiss what i said about supergravity having to be 26D for bosonic to work, nor does it dismiss what miss mom said.

if anything it just means the 26D section is more isolated then thought.
 
LifeRiderthe1 said:
Well thats just blatant a fallacy on your part to assume that its a clear reference to bosonic. also bosonic doesn't curve. and you gotta uphold you know INTEGRAL d^26 sqrt(g) R as true. and uphold massless spin 2 gravitons (no idea how you even got that from them just saying 26 dimensions that matter), or how you even got T duality from them saying that, or to be frank anything from bosonic outside them just saying "26 that matter"cool broski bosonic talks about 25D+1D, 26D, 27D lol

bosonic also talks about 26D GR which is kinda funny, tachyons, 26D supergravity you know the drill.

and for M theory dude please stop.


  1. you ain't a scientist and borderline I think limiting a verse because of what they say in these papers is appealing to reality anyways.

    like assuming bosonic is just one massive appeal to possibility
Click to expand...

Since each of these dimensions explains important events in quantum physics, they are not perpendicular and orthogonal axes to each other. They are not infinitely transcendent dimensions, but parallel.
 
LifeRiderthe1 said:
Wdym "they are not 26 perpedicular geometric axis" did you even read the scan i sent. WDYM "where did i find this." did you even read anything about bosonic. Its not "non-euclidean geometry". unless you referring to like something from Chern-Simons theory.

"the size scale of dimensions off Bosonic String Theory?
Represent the size scale of each dimension as a radius R, with R-infinity representing a flat large-scale dimension. Let Lpl denotethe Planck length, the size of the lattice spacing in
the HyperDiamondLattice version of the D4-D5-E6-E7-E8VoDou Physics model. Joseph Polchinski says ".. as R infinity winding states become infinitely massive, while the
compactmomenta go over to a continuous spectrum...at the opposite limit R->0. the states with compact momentum become infinitelymassive, but the spectrum of winding
states approaches acontinuum... it does not cost much energy to wrap a string around asmall circle. Thus as the radius goes to zero the spectrum againseems to approach that
of a noncompact dimension.... In fact, theR-0 and R infinity limits are physically identical. The spectrum is invariant under...{
R->R-(Lply^2/R"
Okay, Contumelia / white / space beyond can be 5D or 6D that doesn't dismiss what i said about supergravity having to be 26D for bosonic to work, nor does it dismiss what miss mom said.

if anything it just means the 26D section is more isolated then thought.
Click to expand...
Isolated because it is not relevant to the cosmology that has been updated over time, being a single irrelevant episode.I'm still trying to figure out how you think this scales to 1-B bruh. Quantitative dimensional superiority doesn't normally work like that.
 
Celestial_Scaler25 said:
Yes we do. Albedo straight up said that it extends past the Multiverse and into the Omniverse as he states.
He says that the Omniversal force extends through all of reality, prove that the 26D isn't part of reality, otherwise the Omniversal force will extends through it as well.

That seems kinda misinterpreted. The reason humans can't see higher dimensions is because we can't perceive beyond the traditional 3 coordinate spaces. Thus, these 26D the Nalgians mentioned, possess additional coordinates.

Don't see why the topic of Bosonic String Theory keeps getting brought up. The BST caps at 26D, while even if less relevant to Ben and humanity, Nalgians flat out admitted higher dimensions beyond the mention 26D.
Click to expand...
It is part of reality, but not as something relevant, which has no relation or scale with the Omniversal Force, and much less as 26 higher dimensions in the Omniverse. Because as I said before, there are many contradictions here, and 5D beings like Contumelia, White Void and Forge of Creation are above. Associating the two statements does not make the dimensions relevant due to this connection, as it is just a fallacy of association, as I have already said.
 
RigelBR7 said:
Since each of these dimensions explains important events in quantum physics, they are not perpendicular and orthogonal axes to each other. They are not infinitely transcendent dimensions, but parallel.
Click to expand...
okay and? that doesn't matter. eh bosonic isn't really parallel more so it can be though its a bit strange how it works for the complex dimension section.

RigelBR7 said:
Isolated because it is not relevant to the cosmology that has been updated over time, being a single irrelevant episode.I'm still trying to figure out how you think this scales to 1-B bruh. Quantitative dimensional superiority doesn't normally work like that.
Click to expand...
Because its still 26D which is still 1-B. I don't remember all the terms on this wiki to understand the relevance of Quantitative dimensional superiority, it being irrelevant or not doesn't change where said thing scales. and you still gotta deal with 26D supergravity, potentially 26D particles (we don't taco about those guys), how does the bosonic open strings and closed strings work inverse, how do tachyons work, so forth borderline get to begging the question of how does bosonic actually work when the argument at hand is one massive assumption its supposedly true


TheOrangeGuy09 said:
This wikia actively references Wikipedia, lol
Click to expand...
Not always but yea but if you are going to provide a CRT for a verse following this very specific scientific paper you should post idk the actual scientific paper in question you are citing and not some secondary source but maybe my poor brain cant comprehend such a simple request. cause i thought in CRTs you were still supposed to stay honest and what not.
 
RigelBR7 said:
It is part of reality, but not as something relevant, which has no relation or scale with the Omniversal Force, and much less as 26 higher dimensions in the Omniverse. Because as I said before, there are many contradictions here, and 5D beings like Contumelia, White Void and Forge of Creation are above. Associating the two statements does not make the dimensions relevant due to this connection, as it is just a fallacy of association, as I have already said.
Click to expand...
Who told you that the the Contumelia, White Voids and FoC are above the Space Beyond? The White Voids and Annihilarrgh Universes are but small specs compared to the vast black void of the Space Beyond. The Contumelia aren't even above standard Annhilarrgh Universes as they need specialized extra dimensional barriers to protect them from it's creation explosion. The Space Beyond scales above them all, arguably not the FoC tho, as it's stated to be a higher plane of existence.

Your knowledge of dimensionality might surpass mine but knowledge on the verse is lacking.
 
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