Ben 10 Cosmology and Chrono Navigator Upgrade/Discussion + Chronosapien Time Bomb discussion + Alien X practical immunity to sleep-, mind- and soulhax

[Greenshifter]

Yeah but there is no thread to get DC's hypertime accepted as 2A and Ben 10's case seems to be easier to evaluate than DC's case so if we can get it accepted here, it'll likely get accepted for DC as well, maybe I should ask DDM since he is quite versed in this kind of stuff?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Firestorm, that I do recall Paradox mentioning more than a 1000 timelines looking at many other discussions. And as for the "Infinite timestream" statement, that could be interpreted in many ways. I doesn't by default mean there's an infinite number of timelines, but it could mean that the timeline(s) are infinite in size individually. By that, I mean that the year "Negative Infinity" and the year Infinity are a thing in said timeline. Which wouldn't quite qualify as 2-A in that regard. But, I agree that 2-A might be deemed iffy; it could mean an infinite number of timelines depending on context, but I don't think it does by default here.

 

[Greenshifter]

@DDM Paradox said many, not how many and before that he said this in Ultimate Alien:

Paradox: As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them. A world where Gwen found the Omnitrix. A world where albedo turned to alien x and was trapped motionless for nearly a year. A world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax. Et cetera. Ad infinitum. These worlds are all every bit as real as our own, but they cannot must not be allowed to leak into ours. Which brings us to our problem.

We already know that there is a beginning of time because Ben travelled to before the universe was created. We also know the timelines start branching right before Ben gets the Omnitrix in 2006, combining this with the branching ad-infinitum (this implies the branching will never stop and is accepted and applied to the Chrono Navigator's page already) and Paradox stating there are hundreds of timelines in 2011. This means that at the theoretical end of time, which does not exist according to Maltruant otherwise the time stream (the collection of all timelines) would not be infinite, there are infinite timelines. Since the Chrono Navigator destroys all of time and all timelines, the Chrono Navigator thus destroys the theoretical end of time (which does not exist) containing infinite timelines.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I forgot to mention, that there's also an indicator that the multiverse approaches infinity. If a multiverse approaches infinity, it's generally massive degrees of 2-B and constantly approaching 2-A though not quite reach it. A multiverse constantly branching itself basically means that.

 

[Greenshifter]

Hmm I thought we always assumed that cases like Dragon Ball (and our own universe/multiverse most likely) had an end of time and thus while it would be very high into 2B, it would still be finite. While Ben 10 would be expanding slower, but infinitely long and thus end up at 2A since infinity itself is just a concept and not a number and you could make a bijection between the amount of timelines at the theoretical end of time in Ben 10 and verses like JoJo that have an infinite amount of timelines at any given moment in time.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

What about Holiday from Generator Rex saying there are infinite dimensions, dimensions meaning timelines? The conversation where infinte dimensions is mentioned goes as following: "

Rex :Ben was a cool kid. I wonder if I'll ever see him agai.

Dr. Holiday: With infinite dimensions, the math doesn't work in your favor, Rex. "

Ben 10 and Generator Rex are in the same multiverse, as seen in Generator Rex episode "Heroes United". Man of Action are the writers for both the Ben 10 series and Generator Rex series. Furthermore, it doesnt contradict anything + Ben first used the alien "Shocksquatch" in the crossover episode, then later on in Omniverse.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Door Nope wait with that I'm gonna push for infinitely above baseline 2A (or unquantifiably into 2A depending on how this thread turns out) Chrono Navigator with that statement in a few months, dimensions does not equal timelines in this case.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Before I get to the stuff here that is very speculative, im letting you guys know that it was agreed that Generator Rex isn't able to be used as evidence here for Ben 10's Multiverse. For mutiple reasons.

-There's absolutely no context behind that statement. It's just a random claim made by someone who isn't knowledegable on the subject of alternate universes

-Paradox, who is knowledgeable on parallel worlds and has far more credibilty, contradicts Holiday by explicitly stating that Ben 10's Multiverse is only in the 100s (even if you want to push for 1000's, he's still giving the Multiverse a finite amount of worlds, which is still a direct contradiction to Holiday either way)

-"Infinite dimensions" can still fall under infinitely branching timelines, like what "Ad Infinitum" is.

-Outside of that crossover episode, Generator Rex never deals with anything related to parallel universes, much less showing any character doing actual research on parallel universes at any point in the show outside of the crossover.

It should absolutely not have any bearing on the size of Ben 10's Multiverse, even if being agreed to be canon.

 

[Greenshifter]

I already told you I was only gonna use Generator Rex as an argument for cosmology after I have tried to get Ben and Rex to regularly scale to eachother, also all those claims are probably false since Gen Rex does deal with timelines in a certain episode IIRC, I am going to bring up later why dimensions does not mean timelines in this case and thus Paradox does not contradict Holliday and I even think Holliday also has knowledge on alternate universes. But I can only confirm all this after I have watched Gen Rex, which I currently can not, hence "a few months".

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Even if Holiday meant higher dimensions instead of parallel ones, it would still be vague by the fact that the Crossover gives us no context as to what "dimensions" is refering to and that Holiday may not even know what she's talking about. You cannot determine infinte dimensions through math (which is what she is seemingly using to make that claim to Rex)

Not to mention Holiday would still be contradicted by the Naljians, who at the absolute best, say the Ben 10 Multiverse have 26 dimensions.

I'll at least give you the benefit of the doubt by rewatching Generator Rex though.

 

[Greenshifter]

Nah pretty sure she meant parallel ones cause Ben ain't from a higher dimension, Null Void and all is involved and Caesar built the dimensional disruptor to the Null Void in the first place, don't know if he and Doc talked during the crossover though.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But if he was talking about parallel ones, then Paradox's comments on the Multiverse would contradict hers.

 

[Greenshifter]

Nah Null Void and Dagon's dimension are parallel dimensions, not timelines. Same for Rex cause IIRC every timeline in Ben 10 has a Ben, a Bellwood and a Mr. Smoothy but Rex's dimension doesn't. So yes I'm arguing for infinitely above baseline 2A Alien X based on Mr. Smoothy I don't see a problem with that ovo.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Greenshifter an infinite amount of timelines could still be expanding, so not seeing how that contradicts anything really.

 

[Greenshifter]

Because Paradox says there are hundreds, not infinite and because I'm claiming Rex's dimension isn't an alternate timeline.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Paradox also shows way more than hundreds of itmelines to no watch Ben, as well as linking them to 2 scientific theories where there are infinite according to both.

Also, retcons does happen quite often in fiction, Paradox statement happened in Ultimate Alien, Maltruent did in Omniverse. Changes are bound to happen in continuation of a series.

If Rex' dimensoin isnt a timeline, what is it then?

 

[Greenshifter]

Well future timelines are a thing, by the time Ben is 30 there would hundreds of thousands of timelines.

That is true but in the final episode of Omniverse we still see branching timelines and one timeline near the beginning of time so it won't just jump to infinite timelines once Ben gets the Omnitrix and then keep on expanding, also if you count the amount of timelines Paradox shows to No Watch Ben, you'll probably get like something in the 1000's which makes sense because some time passed since Paradox's hundreds of timelines statement.

It is another dimension with other laws of physics created by a different Anihilaarg by the Contemelia that works via regular string theory instead of Ben 10's altered Ben-centric version of it and thus has it's own multiverse. I can however not confirm this before watching the show so this is me using pieces that I found online and Gen Rex wiki, as such Gen Rex should not be brought up again till I finish watching it.

 

[Greenshifter]

Edited my OP to include the old design of Mr. Smoothy in "Ben Again" which means Alien X didn't retcon the past, so as long as both Mad Ben and Eon don't branch off from Ben Prime after the events of "So long And Thanks For All The Smoothies", there is no other way for the new design of Mr. Smoothy to be in Mad Ben's timeline than Alien X recreating it there.

Note: Ben 23's timeline has Mr. Gyro instead of Mr. Smoothy, I hope/think this is because of Ben 23's meddling (Ben did not like Mr. Smoothy when he was younger so Ben 23 might as well have used his popularity to get rid of it, he also doesn't like Mr. Gyro tho…) rather than Ben Prime's meddling.

 

[DragonicDoom]

Overall, I agree with your points on the Cosmology and the Annihilaarg, though I feel like Firestorm has also raised some good counter arguements for the CTB. I'd also like to once again state that the Ben 10 cosmology is likely one with 17 spatio-temporal dimensions in it based on the Map of Infinity at 6:58. The fact that the map is described explicitly as a "complete map of space-time" is pretty convincing that this is the definitive number, since its stated by Max and is backed up by Azmuth, making it far more reliable than the Naljian statement.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah I got an answer from Efficiente that destroying timelines automatically means destroying all of their time, so if we accept Professor Paradox went back in No Watch Ben's past to reboot the timestream and not take the cutting down the tree of the time stream literally then CTB is maybe 2A and Alien X probably scales above it.

As for the 17 dimensions, I guess if Paradox and Azmuth have enough higher-dimensional knowledge then it would be 17 instead of 26. It also an option that they refer to dimensions as in multiverses/universes (Ben's multiverse, Null Void('s), Ledgerdomain('s)).

 

[Firestorm808]

Paradox calls the alternate timelines Cross-time in UA.

Technically, only Max calls it a complete map in the form of a question. Azmuth just says that the map extends through 17 dimensions; however, the definition of a dimension in Ben 10 isn't very consistant.

In one timeline, there are multiple dimensions like the normal universe, Null Void and Ledgerdomain.

When Dagon conquered 100 dimensions, it should be limted to 1 timeline since multiple Bens received the Complete Omnitrix after fighting their own Dagon.

Naljian 26 Dimensions refers to the spacial dimensions of existance which occur in both the normal universe and Null void. The Null Void is still 3 dimensional to normal people but can possess 26 spacial dimensions.

 

[Greenshifter]

In one timeline, there are multiple dimensions like the normal universe, Null Void and Ledgerdomain.

When Dagon conquered 100 dimensions, it should be limted to 1 timeline since multiple Bens received the Complete Omnitrix after fighting their own Dagon.

Naljian 26 Dimensions refers to the spacial dimensions of existance which occur in both the normal universe and Null void. The Null Void is still 3 dimensional to normal people but can possess 26 spacial dimensions.

So at least hundred dimensions per timeline based on Dagon conquering this many?

Hmm is this ever stated? Don't forget that Dagon was locked up before the timelines started branching and if it was in a place without time (we know Dagon lived before the beginning of the universe) then there would only be one Dagon, who just chose the prime timeline to attack cause everyone likes attacking the prime timeline. Also doesn't this assume that Mad Azmuth considers Mad Ben worthy of the complete Omnitrix? (also do we just completely neglect the color of the watches and everyone's eyes which shouldn't be different even tho they are?)

When is the Null Void stated to contain 26 spatial dimensions or implied to possibly have a different amount of spatial dimensions than the normal universe?

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

He's saying the normal universe and the null void contain the same spatial dimensions.

 

[Firestorm808]

Who said that Dagon lived before the beginning of the universe?

Just because you're in another dimension, that doesn't mean you don't diverge. All that matters is that you are in the same timeline. Even Paradox has different versions of himself.

What I mean about the 26D stuff is that they talk about existances and perceptions in the normal universe. 1-D is a line. 2-D is flat. 3-D is the norm. 4-D still exists, but normal people can't see it. Same goes for 5-D and so on. The same Dimensional perceptions happen in the Null Void as so on. Lines, Flat, 3-D, etc.

 

[Greenshifter]

Kuro did I'll see if i can find a source.

The thing is I'm more seeing it as each dimension has their own multiverse with their own divergion rules cause I think Rex's has different divergion rules.

Ah well yeah that makes sense that in every dimension there are an equal amount (be it 17 or 26) of spatio-temporal dimensions.

 

[Greenshifter]

RIP 2-C Anihilaarg, No Watch Ben's timeline has the old Mr. Smoothy logo so this basically confirms the Anihilaarg didn't destroy the multiverse and that Mad Ben branched off from Ben Prime post-So Long and Thanks For All The Smoothies (why Man Of Action is this consistent with their Mr. Smoothy logo's and why they put this much thought into which dimension has which Mr. Smoothy logo is beyond me...), I'll edit the OP accordingly.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

you could argue that the anihilaargh has multiversal creation hax, as all paralel universes come into existance after the first universe is created. but that's more like a side-effect so ehh...

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah no the Big Bang is treated as low 2-C (or 3-A) in every verse, regardless if it creates multiple timelines or not. There is this one weapo in Doctor Who that is also low 2-C (3-A actually), 2-A via a chain reaction (due to where it was detonated) IIRC but that's like the best we can get.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

Since it's a thread to put alien x at 2-A. Contemelia might not be 5D in power but they can create 5D tools, they created an extra dimensional barrier and ben was able to cut the extra dimensional barrier easily and with a fraction of alien x power so doesn't that make him at least 2-A?

 

[Greenshifter]

Hmm do we consider the Anihilaarg to be 5D because it will eventually create a multiverse? Pretty sure we don't so they don't actually make 5D tech and their ship was also able to be penetrated by Ben's time cycles.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

Hmm do we consider the Anihilaarg to be 5D because it will eventually create a multiverse? Pretty sure we don't so they don't actually make 5D tech and their ship was also able to be penetrated by Ben's time cycles.

what the hell that doesn't mean that they can't create 5D tools they created an extra dimensional barrier and they saied its impossible to break this barrier and only Alien_X was able to do that, also since no one of you guys believe that alien x is beyond 26th dimentional, the creator also saied that alien x is a extra dimensional beigin and he is not bound by d'immentions so he should be at least 2-A

 

[MrLuk2000]

I agree with Immunity to Soul Manipulation, because Alien X is a special transformation in Ben's case where instead of where unlike most aliens where he physically transforms into them and becomes an independent being, Alien X is just a physical body for the 3 personalities inside his consciousness where they control the body of Alien X. So I agree with Immunity to Soul Manipulation.

No need for Immunity to Sleep Manipulation due to Type 3 Self Sustenance.

Mind Manipulation I either disagree with or neutral on depending on how others see it. To reiterate: all of Alien X's power comes from the consciousness inside his mind so he is still possibly susceptible to mind hax if someone has the range to affect the personalities inside Alien X and knew about them prior. IF agreed on then it should be Resistance at best as Immunity is a NLF.

As for the 2-A upgrade, I agree

 

[Badrimoine2019]

I agree with Immunity to Soul Manipulation, because Alien X is a special transformation in Ben's case where instead of where unlike most aliens where he physically transforms into them and becomes an independent being, Alien X is just a physical body for the 3 personalities inside his consciousness where they control the body of Alien X. So I agree with Immunity to Soul Manipulation.

No need for Immunity to Sleep Manipulation due to Type 3 Self Sustenance.

Mind Manipulation I either disagree with or neutral on depending on how others see it. To reiterate: all of Alien X's power comes from the consciousness inside his mind so he is still possibly susceptible to mind hax if someone has the range to affect the personalities inside Alien X and knew about them prior. IF agreed on then it should be Resistance at best as Immunity is a NLF.

As for the 2-A upgrade, I agree

even the creators confirmed that alien x is an extra dimensional beigin and he is not bound by d'immentions so 2-A should be more than okey

 

[Greenshifter]

@Bad They did state they are 5th dimensional and thus maybe we can infer they can create 5D tech because of this. I'd rather bring this up in a later CRT tho since this one is more about cosmology. Extra dimensional statement is a good supporting statement but can not be the main reason because MoA is known to make several statements that contradict each other.

@Luk thanks for your input, I was more aiming for that Ben, Bellicus and Serena are X's souls thus giving him an immunity to soulhax, mindhax and sleephax (such as Darkrai's which can bypass Type 3 Self-Sustenance) for beings who lack the range to affect him, those that have the range would still be able to soul-, mind- and sleephax him (they would probably need to have feats to affect 2 to 3 minds or souls at the same time tho).

 

[DragonicDoom]

I've brought up the Contomelia before in a previous thread and it was thrown out for a couple of reasons.

1) The Contomelia only appear in 1 episode, making them similar to the Naljians, and have never displayed the raw power of a 5th dimensional being like Mr. Mxyzptlk.

2) The barrier Ben cuts with the Alien X sword would only have to be slightly above Low 2-C in order to protect them from the Annihilaarg, and the fact that they need protection from a Low 2-C weapon supports the idea that they lack true 5th dimensional power.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

I've brought up the Contomelia before in a previous thread and it was thrown out for a couple of reasons.

1) The Contomelia only appear in 1 episode, making them similar to the Naljians, and have never displayed the raw power of a 5th dimensional being like Mr. Mxyzptlk.

2) The barrier Ben cuts with the Alien X sword would only have to be slightly above Low 2-C in order to protect them from the Annihilaarg, and the fact that they need protection from a Low 2-C weapon supports the idea that they lack true 5th dimensional power.

please stop downplaying. Contemelia are not 5D in power but they can create 5D tools, the barrier was fifth dimentional barrier and alien x was able to break it with a fraction of his power which proves that Alien_X is at least 5D

 

[DragonicDoom]

I don't want to downplay Alien X, I'm just trying to be realistic. Also, I never said those things to begin with, they were rebuttals that other people have said in older threads. Also, making 5D tools does not automatically give you 5D power. Look at this way, if I have all the parts and the knowledge to build a nuke, does that give me the same AP as a nuke? No, I've got flimsy noodle arms that can't hurt regular humans, let alone destroy cities.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

I don't want to downplay Alien X, I'm just trying to be realistic. Also, I never said those things to begin with, they were rebuttals that other people have said in older threads. Also, making 5D tools does not automatically give you 5D power. Look at this way, if I have all the parts and the knowledge to build a nuke, does that give me the same AP as a nuke? No, I've got flimsy noodle arms that can't hurt regular humans, let alone destroy cities.

like I've saied contemelia are not 5D in raw power but they Can create 5D tools and they saied this barrier is impossible to break which means its a fifth dimensional barrier and Alien_X was able to break it easily So that prove alien x is at least 5D

 

[DragonicDoom]

So are we gonna come to a conclusion on this or are we still waiting for ProfessorKukui to give a rebuttal? Also, if 2-A Alien X is even considered, it should probably be listed as "possibly 2-A" since if the Contomelia Barrier Feat is legit its still only 1 feat that appeared in 1 episode. While Alien X could be 2-A, having just 1 feat that is still somewhat shaky to back it up probably isn't enough to give him the complete upgrade.

 

[Greenshifter]

Euhm i was hoping for staff to approve this so basically for Andy to have more time. 2-A is based on Chrono Navigator being 2-A because of Maltruant's infinite time stream statement, nothing to do with the Contemelia barrier.