Ben 10 Cosmology and Chrono Navigator Upgrade/Discussion + Chronosapien Time Bomb discussion + Alien X practical immunity to sleep-, mind- and soulhax

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Can people stop using the whole "extra-dimensional so automatically higher d" arguments? They have been addressed multiple times to not be worth anything and it is getting annoying to re-explain it.

"Extra-dimensional" literally only means to exist outside of the universe. Thats it. It doesn't automatically mean you can slap on higher-dimensionality all of a sudden. Any parallel universe foriegn being would classify as being extra-dimensional as well. And there are characters here who are considered that but are not given higher-d status in any way, shape or form.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

The contemila have been stated to be 5th. dimensional, not extra-dimensional. The barrier they created is what is stated to be extra-dimensional, not the contemelia themselves. And only Badrimoine2019 is arguing that the Contemelia have 5D power, which should not be discussed here anyway

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Thats what I was mainly addressing. Im only stressing it for everyone because I continue to see that point brought up in these threads, and it should stop.

 

[DragonicDoom]

That's exactly what I did before, I've tried to argue that point before and people have given legitimate arguements why its not worth considering. As for the infinite time stream statement, I still refer to my previous opinion, its a 1 time statement from what I'm gathering that should be considered a high ball at best since its not exactly a lot to go on, so "possibly" or "likely" 2-A are in my opinion more suitable.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It shouldnt even be possibly 2-A. "Infinite Time stream" does not automatically mean infinite timelines. As DDM mentioned before, that can easily be interpreted in multiple different ways and is too vague.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

how exactly is it vague, and how exactly can it be interpreted in multiple ways?

 

[Greenshifter]

I don't see how this is different from DC's Hypertime which IIRC is also stated to be infinite and accepted as 2-A. If a set contains X elements and said set is stated to be infinite then that means X is infinite. I don't even care whether that means time never ends, the amount of timelines jumps to infinite after a certain amount of time or something else, the end result is still the same.

Also if it means that time never ends and this end up being 2-B for some reason, wouldn't this make Alien X (if he scales I know) the strongest 2-B on the site since in Dragon Ball we should assume time ends so the end result Ben 10 would be higher than Dragon Ball?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Doorinmyhouse

And as for the "Infinite timestream" statement, that could be interpreted in many ways. I doesn't by default mean there's an infinite number of timelines, but it could mean that the timeline(s) are infinite in size individually. By that, I mean that the year "Negative Infinity" and the year Infinity are a thing in said timeline. Which wouldn't quite qualify as 2-A in that regard. But, I agree that 2-A might be deemed iffy; it could mean an infinite number of timelines depending on context, but I don't think it does by default here.

Not to mention the whole thing is simply a single statement from Maltruent.

@Greenshifter

No it wouldnt. In DragonBalls case its more than simply the expansion of timelines never ending.

 

[Greenshifter]

So we assume by default that time never ends in every verse, yet in our universe it most likely does and even tho this would mean they'd actually have an infinite amount of timelines at t = infinity?

Said simple statement is backed up by Paradox's ad infinitum statement (which would mean timelines branch until the end of time) and I though this should be easy since I thought it assumed time ended in every verse unless stated otherwise, but if actually stated otherwise such as here then it should not require much proof since we are not 100% sure about our own universe's time ending and thus authors choosing for time to not end should be quite common.

Maltruant is also very high in intelligence to the point that he gave Paradox trouble and since when do we need everything to be repeated, Paradox mentioning there are hundreds of timelines is also a one-time statement and these 2 do not even contradict because Paradox was talking about already established timelines.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

what abou tthe main topics of this thread? do you agree that Alien X scale from the CTB and CN ?

 

[Greenshifter]

@Door that's the other thread, this thread is to upgrade the Navigator and CTB as well as clarify Alien X's minds and souls reside in a pocket dimension.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

oh, sorry, but yea, like Greenshifter said, both Paradox and Maltruent mention their being infinite timelines/ an infinite timestream, which is also backed up by string theory and quantum mechanics. Which Paradox links the Ben 10 cosmos to.

 

[Greenshifter]

And we know string theory and quantum mechanics are not literally being applied but rather a Ben-centric version of it (timelines started branching when Ben got the Omnitrix).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im pretty sure it doesn't need to be explained why Paradox is far more credible on the subject of parallel universes and multiversal cosmology than Maltruent is. And even IF you want to take Maltruent's statement at heart, it still doesn't neccessarily align with what you want to argue for here. It's one interpretation out of multiple. Just as DDM pointed out before.

Also, stop relying on the "quantum mechanics / string theory" excuse. I already mentioned before on why that doesn't matter yet it keeps being repeated like it wasn't already addressed, and no offense, it's getting annoying. A simple mention of it doesn't mean you can hide behind it as an argument. Not to mention we already don't easily accept it as other verses who make mention of it, like Yu-Gi-Oh, don't even have it applied for them here. Ben 10 wouldn't be any different.

 

[Greenshifter]

I mean IIRC Chronosapiens are from another dimension, can travel between timelines and should intuitively know how the time stream works via the nature of their powers.

Well I don't really see which other interpretation would lead to it not being 2-A. If you can think of one then I guess a possibly is warranted.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

DDM already mentioned why its up for interpretation....as I said before.

And that isn't much of an argument for Maltruent. All im seeing there is that because they manipulate time (Paradox can as well with the CN), and travel between timelines (Again, nothing new to Paradox), their word on how time works is credible.

 

[Greenshifter]

I personally think that if the timelines are infinite in size individually then it would be 2-A because of the time stream that would keep expanding. Basically if you say 2^t is the amount of timelines in a certain year and t = the amount of years since 2006. If t = infinite, then the amount of timelines is 2^infinite. DDM also told me that there are usually verses with more backing than this for there being no end of time like Chrono Trigger, hence I am fine with a possibly if necessary.

Clockwork was able to sense the sotobro effect of the CTB just by transforming, implying some sort of intuitive understanding of the multiverse. Also I don't see why you mention Paradox and comparing him to Maltruant as if it's Maltruant's word vs his, it's not tho.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Professor do explain how Maltruent's and Paradox statement about the timestream/ timeline differ. And then explain how infinite timestream is supposed to interpreted different from how we are intepreteting it. I have no clue who DDM is.. Then explain why quantum mechanics/ string theory doesnt matter.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the summarised conclusions here?

 

[Greenshifter]

There are no conclusions yet and I will likely ask DDM to comment here again to clear some stuff up but will wait for further input from Kukui first.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The timelines being infinite in sized individually basically often means that the number of timelines often approach infinity if we're going by the ever expanding rate. And someone mention Chrono Trigger, the context comes sever sources; examples are Magus stated "There are as many worlds as their are possbilities" combined with Glenn stating the existence of an infinite number of possibilities in Chrono Cross. And there's that Radical Dreamers statement of Lavos literally having an infinite number of avatars; with each one dominating each timeline. Thus an infinite number of timelines. Chrono Trigger also has things where "Beyond the end of time" exist.

The String Theory and Quantum Mechanics stuff are enough to qualify for a 2-B sized multiverse given the many world interpretation of new worlds always constantly being born. But that doesn't mean the number of universes were infinite to begin with or that they reached infinite. I'm not saying that 2-A is impossible, but for now; 2-B does seem to make more sense given the vagueness of "Infinite Timestream" as well as Paradox being more knowledgable.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus seems to make sense to me.

 

[Greenshifter]

I see your point Medeus but Chrono Trigger has enough evidence to have an infinite amount of timelines at every point in time. I'm arguing Ben 10 has an infinite amount of timelines at the end of time, that way it does not contradict Paradox's statement and like I said before the amount of timelines at t = infinite is 2 ^ infinite.

 

[Greenshifter]

Bump

 

[Badrimoine2019]

Did I miss something? so is Alien_X gonna be 2-A since he was able to break a 5D barrier or it's still not enough?

 

[Greenshifter]

@Bad no not the barrier stuff that's not what this thread is about anyways, I'm basically waiting for someone to tell me why exactly infinite-length timelines does not equal infinite timelines because of the branching and why the Maltruant statement is vague.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

@Bad no not the barrier stuff that's not what this thread is about anyways, I'm basically waiting for someone to tell me why exactly infinite-length timelines does not equal infinite timelines because of the branching and why the Maltruant statement is vague.

sorry for bothering you I just want to ask a question but it doesn't have anything to do with this thread, is Alien_X speed infinity since he is not affected by time?

 

[Antvasima]

Only if he has demonstrated the ability to travel infinite distances in finite time, or move when time literally stands still.

 

[Firestorm808]

Now that I think about it, shouldn't their Time Manipulation scale to Paradox's giving them infinite speed from moving while pausing time?

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think that we can assume this without any form of indication or demonstration of the ability.

 

[Firestorm808]

Pausing time?

 

[Greenshifter]

Moving in your own time stop doesn't give you infinite speed, Paradox is stated to exist outside of time, Alien X might have this as well but this is not the thread for that.

 

[Antvasima]

@Greenshifter

So what is left to do here?

 

[Greenshifter]

DDM and Kukui seem to disagree with 2-A but I would still like some clarification on our standards regarding this because I think infinite lenght timelines still warrants an upgrade to higher into 2-B.

CTB scaling also still needs to be discussed.

I am currently discussing Alien X's soul and mind in another thread with DemonicDude.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks for the information.

 

[Greenshifter]

@DemonicDude Where is a baby Celestialsapien's mind located, since it has no personalities? (or does it only have 1 personality?)

 

[DemonicDude]

It does not have 1 personality cause personalities are developed by them as it's their creation,As far as their mind goes (it's not ben,Bellicus or Serena) it likely exist in the Forge of Creation or perhaps beyond it's one of those questions you know are not going to be answered and are beyond our comprehension.

 

[Greenshifter]

Hmm well if we have no proof that it exists in the Forge then we can't assume it does. I'd appreciate some input on this from other people as well.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

baby celestialsapiens dont have personalities, so it's not located anywhere. if they did have a personlaity, it wouldnt make much sense for aggregor for wanting to absorb the baby then, because then he would have 2 personalities in total, instead of just 1, meaning he would basically be the exact same thing as a regular Celestialsapien.