Ben 10 - Alien X Infinite Attack Speed

[Reiner04]

“Alien X thought the universe and then all that process happened on their own"

Meh, why all that process to begin with then? Either everything happened in one go or one step (universe popped out of nowhere instantly) or it did't happened in one go but in steps. Spacetime's got created, galaxies begin to came out and sent to their places by alien X and all.

First thing didn't happened, so the second. We grant ppl who can move object w/o touching them just by thought or wish telekinesis. I don't see how it's needed to be stated at all. Barely any fiction mentions telekinesis while using it. So that's that. It's a burden on those who are implying it's not telekinesis when it's literal what is happening via very definition:

The ability to affect physical objects via thoughts only.

 

[Abu2411]

“Alien X thought the universe and then all that process happened on their own"

Meh, why all that process to begin with then? Either everything happened in one go or one step (universe popped out of nowhere instantly) or it did't happened in one go but in steps. Spacetime's got created, galaxies begin to came out and sent to their places by alien X and all.

I don't see how the universe not being recreated instantly would somehow mean that Alien X moved those orbs into place himself.

First thing didn't happened, so the second. We grant ppl who can move object w/o touching them just by thought or wish telekinesis. I don't see how it's needed to be stated at all. Barely any fiction mentions telekinesis while using it. So that's that. It's a burden on those who are implying it's not telekinesis when it's literal what is happening via very definition:

The ability to affect physical objects via thoughts only.

This is incorrect. One of the most popular fictional settings, Star Wars makes it pretty explicit whenever the Force Users are using telekinesis. Other extremely popular fictions such as DC and Marvel also make it clear when a character uses telekinesis.

With Alien X, we don't see him do anything to indicate he is using his telekinetic abilities. He's just standing there, menacingly. The burden of proof is on you, since you're the one making the claim that Alien X is using telekinesis. That's what I'm arguing, that we aren't shown anything to indicate Alien X using telekinesis.

 

[Reiner04]

I don't see how the universe not being recreated instantly would somehow mean that Alien X moved those orbs into place himself

That's your arguement is, your arguement is alien X recreated the Universe instantly because if not then all other process happened in steps separately by alien X and hence moving the orbs by thought as well (by definition telekinesis).

With Alien X, we don't see him do anything to indicate he is using his telekinetic abilities

Telekinesis by definition is the work of thought dude, what you want to see? His thoughts doing gymnastics or smth?

 

[JustANormalLemon]

On your part, there seems to be a misunderstanding.

When considering the role of infinite quantity in speed, it's important to distinguish between moving all of them at once or one at a time. The former relates to range, while the latter results in infinite speed.

Ultimately, the conclusion depends on the specific action being taken.

Again, I agree that by logic Alien X shouldn't be moving the galaxies at infinity speed as explained here

Sinse It's never stated that the infinity universe is made of lower infinity distances, any Y distance should be finity

The only reason I agree is becuse after looking 0other profiles with infinity speed I saw a bunch of other exemples of characters giving the infinit speed thanks to moving a infinit amount of objects

So I disagre with the logic but agree that It fits how we accept infinit speed

 

[Georredannea15]

1. The galaxies were legit shown to move finite distance that's MFTL+
2. Galaxies are not attacks, Alien X created the galaxies and not in use for combat.
3. Just cause the universe is infinite doesn't mean anything that moves in that infinite space will grant infinite speed.
4. Alien X created the universe fully after the galaxies moved finite distances shown on panel.

No matter how many times you divide the infinity, the result is always infinity.

Galaxies scattered throughout the universe would have traveled an infinite distance when they moved (although it is a smaller infinity than the universe, it is still infinite.)

Because infinity is always infinite, no matter how divided or reduced it is.

 

[Omegabronic]

Nothing implies that Alien X is moving those orbs by himself either. It's something that isn't shown or stated. It's simpler to assume that the orbs are automatically going into place when Alien X made the decision to recreate the universe.

how can galaxies move on their own? how does that make any sense at all?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Any galaxy infinite distance away would have to move infinite distance.
It's classic number line issue. If you are standing at zero, then every conceivable finite number on either side is finite distance away.
But infinity is infinite distance away.

Similarly, a galaxy at finite distance moved finite distance but galaxy at infinite distance moved infinite distance.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

The Milky Way as a whole is moving at a velocity of approximately 600 km per second with respect to extragalactic frames of reference.

 

[Omegabronic]

Infinite space does not necessarily mean infinite distance. While space may be infinite in size, distance is a measure of the amount of space between two points. Distance is not necessarily infinite in an infinite space.

While it is possible that there are infinite galaxies in an infinite space, the distribution of galaxies and matter in the universe is not uniform, and there may be regions of space that are relatively empty.

if there are infinite galaxies, then there is infinite places where they can be, and if so there will always be a galaxy that is an infinite amount of times away from where Earth is for example

 

[Reiner04]

if there are infinite galaxies, then there is infinite places where they can be, and if so there will always be a galaxy that is an infinite amount of times away from where Earth is for example

Dread agrees with infinite attack speed as long as our standards take throwing speed as attack speed, she was talking about smth else at that time.

 

[Omegabronic]

Dread agrees with infinite attack speed as long as our standards take throwing speed as attack speed, she was talking about smth else at that time.

okay then, my bad dread

 

[Omegabronic]

Galaxies are not attacks plus they moved finite distances shown on screen.

yes they can be, if you trow a galaxy at someone that will hurt, plus it was with tk, so he can trow things with tk at that speed

They moved that way doesn't prove they moved infinite distance, you can't know if something moved through infinite distance by visuals alone, what's shown on screen are clearly finite distance movement.

infinite universe=infinite galaxies=infinite distance between then all

Alien X has infinite range for him to recreate the universe and MFTL+ for moving galaxies.

how to move infinite galaxies and make them all stay at finite distances from each other?

 

[Aachintya31]

I guess this makes sense

 

[Abu2411]

That's your arguement is, your arguement is alien X recreated the Universe instantly because if not then all other process happened in steps separately by alien X and hence moving the orbs by thought as well (by definition telekinesis).

No, my argument is that there is nothing to suggest that Alien X was using telekinesis, and because of that we shouldn't assume he did. It is simpler that the orbs set themselves automatically as Alien X willed the universe back. This process not being instant doesn't serve to prove that Alien X was using telekinesis.

Telekinesis by definition is the work of thought dude, what you want to see? His thoughts doing gymnastics or smth?

In other fictional works like those I previously mentioned, we see habd gestures as a very common indication of telekinesis, as one example.

how can galaxies move on their own? how does that make any sense at all?

The galaxies were not moving on their own. The orbs were, which then materialised as they assumed their natural positions before the destruction of the universe.

 

[Aachintya31]

So either we should have Alien X having universal lifting strength with TK or Infinite attack speed

 

[Reiner04]

So either we should have Alien X having universal lifting strength with TK or Infinite attack speed

Or both but tsundere arc needed to be gone.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Would like to remenber every one that galaxies constantly move and not stay still in a single place

 

[Reiner04]

In other fictional works like those I previously mentioned, we see habd gestures as a very common indication of telekinesis, as one example.

Doesn't matter gesture and all, you're demanding a reductant movements from a character to do, it doesn't matter, only thing matter is that he moved the galaxies with thought, that's it. That's the definition of telekinesis.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

No, my argument is that there is nothing to suggest that Alien X was using telekinesis, and because of that we shouldn't assume he did. It is simpler that the orbs set themselves automatically as Alien X willed the universe back. This process not being instant doesn't serve to prove that Alien X was using telekinesis.

That's just throwing your own standard at Alein X and demanding him to follow it.
How you personally think TK should be represented isn't really important, because other people may think otherwise. Overall what matters is what makes mechnical sense.
And TK sounds much cogent option then just "will into existence". Especially since we know this is a raw power feat and involves serious mental faculty on part of Alein X, I don't believe at all that creation happened passively without any control expected of Alien X.

 

[Aachintya31]

Or both but tsundere arc needed to be gone.

AP : Unknown, 2-A with telekinesis

 

[Omegabronic]

The galaxies were not moving on their own. The orbs were, which then materialised as they assumed their natural positions before the destruction of the universe.

substitute the word "galaxy" with "orb" in my question and nothing changes

 

[Reiner04]

AP : Unknown, 2-A with telekinesis

You have been infected to the very core.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

The telekinesis has that range though it wasn't used as any form of attack during the galaxy stuff but you can just put possibly "infinite attack speed via telekinesis"

I'm just skeptical since it use wasn't in form of an attack that's why I believe it to be range feat.

telekinisis is an attack, he has used it in the past, "attack speed" isn't limited to just attacks but the speed of which your hax are

 

[Vasco]

Alien X has used telekinesis before in the fight against amalgam kids just like Geryuganshoop, but Geryuganshoop attack speed doesn't come from his fight against saitama but from the WOG.

Then I can agree.

If something moves it can be given speed, doesn't matter if it's an offensive attack or lovely air kiss sent by a hottie.

I guess we should give characters who emit light....light speed via light manipulation.

I don't see how the universe not being recreated instantly would somehow mean that Alien X moved those orbs into place himself.

This is incorrect. One of the most popular fictional settings, Star Wars makes it pretty explicit whenever the Force Users are using telekinesis. Other extremely popular fictions such as DC and Marvel also make it clear when a character uses telekinesis.

With Alien X, we don't see him do anything to indicate he is using his telekinetic abilities. He's just standing there, menacingly. The burden of proof is on you, since you're the one making the claim that Alien X is using telekinesis. That's what I'm arguing, that we aren't shown anything to indicate Alien X using telekinesis.

I mean technically he would have to use telekinesis to move those orbs to create the galaxies.

No matter how many times you divide the infinity, the result is always infinity.

Galaxies scattered throughout the universe would have traveled an infinite distance when they moved (although it is a smaller infinity than the universe, it is still infinite.)

Because infinity is always infinite, no matter how divided or reduced it is.

I guess if a universe is stated to be infinite and characters and objects in it move about 100m they all get infinite speed.
"Not everytime you scale that way for crying out loud, everything depends on context".

The galaxies scattered and moved several light years away on screen, it can't be known if they moved infinite distance by visuals alone but we agree some should since the Ben 10 realities are considered infinite in size.

Everything is context, a finite size construct can be removed from an infinite size construct shown in fiction.

yes they can be, if you trow a galaxy at someone that will hurt, plus it was with tk, so he can trow things with tk at that speed


infinite universe=infinite galaxies=infinite distance between then all


how to move infinite galaxies and make them all stay at finite distances from each other?

If you did but didn't, they just removed to where they are meant to be.

Not everytime someone/something moves in an infinite space we grant it infinite speed, its dumb.

???

So either we should have Alien X having universal lifting strength with TK or Infinite attack speed

Infinite speed via telekinesis is okay.
Not that Alien X always uses it anyways.

telekinisis is an attack, he has used it in the past, "attack speed" isn't limited to just attacks but the speed of which your hax are

Telekinesis can be used as an attack like every other ability doesn't necessarily mean it's use will always be in form of an attack.

Besides I already agree with reiner so this discussion can end.

 

[Reiner04]

Infinite speed via telekinesis is okay.
Not that Alien X always uses it anyways.

Aachintya is joking, he has been scared and in trauma ever since base ben has became mountain lvl+

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I guess we should give characters who emit light....light speed via light manipulation.

I did clarify in earlier statement that the speed scaling to other stats is context based.

 

[Vasco]

Aachintya is joking, he has been scared and in trauma ever since base ben has became mountain lvl+

Should have universal+ durability.

I did clarify in earlier statement that the speed scaling to other stats is context based.

Should have just said so again since not everyone would be aware you said so previously, you made it sound like anyone/anything who moves in an infinite space automatically gets infinite speed cause infinite - infinite is infinite.

Anyways no problem, I agree with infinite speed telekinesis.

 

[Abu2411]

Doesn't matter gesture and all, you're demanding a reductant movements from a character to do, it doesn't matter, only thing matter is that he moved the galaxies with thought, that's it. That's the definition of telekinesis.

That's just throwing your own standard at Alein X and demanding him to follow it.
How you personally think TK should be represented isn't really important, because other people may think otherwise. Overall what matters is what makes mechnical sense.
And TK sounds much cogent option then just "will into existence". Especially since we know this is a raw power feat and involves serious mental faculty on part of Alein X, I don't believe at all that creation happened passively without any control expected of Alien X.

No, you are the ones who are assuming that Alien X used telekinesis when we are given no indication that he used such an ability. It makes no sense to give Alien X the benefit of the doubt about performing something he isn't shown to do.

Also, this isn't even my own standard of what counts as telekinesis. Alien X himself has used gestures to indicate telekinesis, like that fight with the amalgam kids.

substitute the word "galaxy" with "orb" in my question and nothing changes

Except we cannot assume these orbs to have the same properties of galaxies. We assume they moved automatically since there is nothing to suggest otherwise.

 

[Omegabronic]

Except we cannot assume these orbs to have the same properties of galaxies.

this is irrelevant to my point

We assume they moved automatically since there is nothing to suggest otherwise.

no, we assume that alien x moved them since nothing indicates otherwise, how can inanimate objects move on their own? how does that make any sense as an "easier" explanation rather than assuming used an ability he has shown to process?

 

[Abu2411]

this is irrelevant to my point

Orbs aren't the same as galaxies, or any other inanimate object since most inanimate objects don't transform into galaxies. So we can't say that them moving is an indication of telekinesis.

no, we assume that alien x moved them since nothing indicates otherwise, how can inanimate objects move on their own? how does that make any sense as an "easier" explanation rather than assuming used an ability he has shown to process?

Nothing indicates that Alien X used telekinesis to move these orbs. I've already explained how their different from inanimate objects. We go by what we are shown, and we are shown the orbs to move on their own without any apparent use of telekinesis on Alien X's part.

 

[Firestorm808]

The orbs came from his body. AX used an ability and caused them to move. The chain of cause and effect dictates that something had to cause the movement of the orbs. In this case, it had to be AX. If AX is the only thing in the universe, AX is the only source of a cause for the orbs.

 

[Firestorm808]

Hypothetically speaking, if a being materialized an arrow pre-programmed to shoot itself at a target, would the arrow speed not count as an attack speed for the being?

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Would be easier to give Alien X infinity speed for beingh a beingh that exist outside the time flow and can move whem even time was destroyed by the anighalarg....

 

[Abu2411]

The orbs came from his body. AX used an ability and caused them to move. The chain of cause and effect dictates that something had to cause the movement of the orbs. In this case, it had to be AX. If AX is the only thing in the universe, AX is the only source of a cause for the orbs.

Alien X summoning those orbs does not mean that he moved them, because that's assuming that the orbs needed to be moved by an external force in the first place.

Hypothetically speaking, if a being materialized an arrow pre-programmed to shoot itself at a target, would the arrow speed not count as an attack speed for the being?

But that isn't what's happening here. This is a creation feat, and because of that it wouldn't really scale to speed, especially since I don't ever recall Alien X using these orbs in an offensive capacity, this universe recreation feat is the only time he's used such a thing. Think of it as the same way destroying an infinite universe wouldn't scale to infinite speed either.

Would be easier to give Alien X infinity speed for beingh a beingh that exist outside the time flow and can move whem even time was destroyed by the anighalarg....

No, timeless voids don't grant infinite speed unfortunately.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

No, timeless voids don't grant infinite speed unfortunately.

I know, Just tired of all this debate, lol.

 

[Firestorm808]

What do you mean creation can't be used as attacks or attack speed?

Nothing is stopping AX from creating a planet and letting it drop on somebody at high speeds.

 

[Omegabronic]

Alien X summoning those orbs does not mean that he moved them, because that's assuming that the orbs needed to be moved by an external force in the first place.

which is the default assumption

 

[Firestorm808]

What example or precedent are you referring to when claiming Alien X not being the mover is the default assumption anways?

 

[Firestorm808]

Also, the energy orbs left AX's body. It didn't appear from thin air. It would be akin to shooting the blood from your body.

 

[Reiner04]

Ngl, how can someone ignore that galaxies are moving at infinite speed and only source there is for that is alien x.