Ben 10 - Alien X Infinite Attack Speed

[Abu2411]

What do you mean creation can't be used as attacks or attack speed?

Nothing is stopping AX from creating a planet and letting it drop on somebody at high speeds.

Creation, more specifically creating universes does not scale to one's speed or even attack speed. For example, characters who have shown to be able to create their own infinitely sized universes wouldn't have infinite speed as they create such realms through their creation ability which takes a single action. This is similar to an earlier point I made against Maitreya:

"Moving an infinite amount of objects, all at once, to a finite distance is not infinite speed for this reason. As you are only performing one action in a finite amount of time."

Also, we don't see Alien X create each galaxy individually. We just see orbs spawning from his body that he didn't even move.

which is the default assumption

What example or precedent are you referring to when claiming Alien X not being the mover is the default assumption anways?

Why would the default assumption be that Alien X moved those orbs? We see no indication of such a thing, all we are shown are the orbs moving into their designated places while Alien X just stands there. You would have to prove that those orbs needed to be moved in order for the assumption that Alien X was moving them to be valid. Which wouldn't really work since all we see are the orbs moving without any evidence of assistance.

Ngl, how can someone ignore that galaxies are moving at infinite speed and only source there is for that is alien x.

Because we cannot prove Alien X was moving those orbs in the first place.

 

[Reiner04]

Because we cannot prove Alien X was moving those orbs in the first place.

Who did it then? You? Or star wars?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Creation, more specifically creating universes does not scale to one's speed or even attack speed. For example, characters who have shown to be able to create their own infinitely sized universes wouldn't have infinite speed as they create such realms through their creation ability which takes a single action. This is similar to an earlier point I made against Maitreya:

There's no hard rule which prevents this. If it does, it needs to be yeeted.
Logic and context is what matters.

 

[Reiner04]

"Character who have shown to be able to create their own infinitely sized universe"

False equivalence, are those characters moving everything in the creation to their places? No. Alien X created and sent those orbs to their places "as they weren't on their places". I don't see any character who has done it, if you have one, feel free to example them.

 

[Firestorm808]

Because we cannot prove Alien X was moving those orbs in the first place.

Also, the energy orbs left AX's body. It didn't appear from thin air. It would be akin to shooting the blood from your body.

 

[Robo432343]

...
is this thread going to be closed? only 1 person who isn't a staff votes agree
or do we need more staff
i disagree with the downgrade btw
fra

 

[Reiner04]

This indeed is going circular.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also, the energy orbs left AX's body. It didn't appear from thin air. It would be akin to shooting the blood from your body.

We have something similar in GoW we give speed rating for.
Ceto punched Ouranus so hard on the chin that pieces of his chin flew out and became the universe.

 

[Aachintya31]

Add me to the disagreement

 

[Abu2411]

Who did it then? You? Or star wars?

"Character who have shown to be able to create their own infinitely sized universe"

False equivalence, are those characters moving everything in the creation to their places? No. Alien X created and sent those orbs to their places "as they weren't on their places". I don't see any character who has done it, if you have one, feel free to example them.

Again, you're assuming the orbs needed to be moved in the first place. There isn't anything to indicate as such.

There's no hard rule which prevents this. If it does, it needs to be yeeted.
Logic and context is what matters.

No, if you create an infinite universe at once you will not be getting infinite speed, since you only took a single action to create that universe rather than creating it star by star for example.

Also, the energy orbs left AX's body. It didn't appear from thin air. It would be akin to shooting the blood from your body.

You don't telekinetically control the blood that leaves your body either. Alien X being the source of the orbs would not change anything nor does it prove that he is moving the orbs.

We have something similar in GoW we give speed rating for.
Ceto punched Ouranus so hard on the chin that pieces of his chin flew out and became the universe.

GoW is far more explicit in regards to infinite speed because of Helios light dodging. Also, this example is far different from Alien X since we don't see Alien X do anything except just stand there, whereas Ceto and Uranus are actually fighting and attacking as well as the fact that having a part of your body being struck to create an infinite universe, is different from orbs appearing from your body that go on to recreate the universe.

 

[Firestorm808]

You don't telekinetically control the blood that leaves your body either. Alien X being the source of the orbs would not change anything nor does it prove that he is moving the orbs.

First off, Alien X has Body Control.

Second, you're overcomplicating the matter. Alien X was the only being/thing there. Alien X then decides to use his powers to recreate the universe.

Tell us. How is this not the chain of cause and effect?

Cause: Alien X decides to use his powers to recreate the universe​

​

Effect: Pieces from his body fly out.​

Can the effect "Pieces from his body fly out" occur if "Alien X decided not to use his powers"?

If not, then Alien X is definitively the cause of the pieces flying out.

It doesn't matter if it's telekinesis or not. Alien X's powers caused the movement of the pieces.

Your suggestion that the pieces moved independently with no direct cause from Alien X has no basis or precedent.

When faced with competing explanations for the same phenomenon, the simplest is likely the correct one. By Occam's Razor, Alien X being the cause has the least amount of assumptions.

@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus

Can you please help us settle the matter of causation here?

 

[Abu2411]

First off, Alien X has Body Control.

Second, you're overcomplicating the matter. Alien X was the only being/thing there. Alien X then decides to use his powers to recreate the universe.

Tell us. How is this not the chain of cause and effect?

Cause: Alien X decides to use his powers to recreate the universe​

​

Effect: Pieces from his body fly out.​

Can the effect "Pieces from his body fly out" occur if "Alien X decided not to use his powers"?

If not, then Alien X is definitively the cause of the pieces flying out.

It doesn't matter if it's telekinesis or not. Alien X's powers caused the movement of the pieces.

The orbs are not "pieces" of Alien X the same way energy blasts are not pieces of yourself for example, this isn't stated or shown anywhere. The only thing we are shown is that the orbs come out from Alien X, and that they move to their designated locations. Nothing suggests they are distinct parts of Alien X's body that he can control, nor does anything suggest that Alien X moved them.

This is my main point, that we aren't shown anything to suggest Alien X is controlling the orbs and moving them himself.

Your suggestion that the pieces moved independently with no direct cause from Alien X has no basis or precedent.

When faced with competing explanations for the same phenomenon, the simplest is likely the correct one. By Occam's Razor, Alien X being the cause has the least amount of assumptions.

Again, it's on you to prove that Alien X controlled the orbs. The simplest explanation is to go by what is shown and/or stated, and not once is it shown or stated that Alien X is controlling those orbs himself, through telekinesis or any other means.

What we are shown is that Alien X makes the decision to recreate the universe and orbs fly out of his body, moving themselves to their intended positions. As we know, creation feats do not scale to speed in any form, particularly in this case when we don't see Alien X take any action to suggest he is controlling those orbs.

I would also like to reiterate that the standards of infinite speed are high, and require a "high amount of scrutiny". Alien X, to my knowledge, has no other Infinite speed feat that we could use as supporting evidence.

 

[Reiner04]

The orbs are not "pieces" of Alien X the same way energy blasts are not pieces of yourself for example, this isn't stated or shown anywhere. The only thing we are shown is that the orbs come out from Alien X, and that they move to their designated locations. Nothing suggests they are distinct parts of Alien X's body that he can control, nor does anything suggest that Alien X moved them.

"Orbs" are literally shown to be Peace's of his body, unless you just straight up ignore the entire thing happened and keep forcing your overcomplicated interpretation above everyone else here.

What we are shown is that Alien X makes the decision to recreate the universe and orbs fly out of his body, moving themselves to their intended positions. As we know, creation feats do not scale to speed in any form, particularly in this case when we don't see Alien X take any action to suggest he is controlling those orbs.

What is shown that pieces of orbs came out of alien x body and went all over the Universe and there is no one else to do that but alien x mind. The very act of moving something with a thought is telekinesis, you can stop with a headcanon that alien X is not moving anything and universe got created in one thought when the steps that are involved is many.

I would also like to reiterate that the standards of infinite speed are high, and require a "high amount of scrutiny". Alien X, to my knowledge, has no other Infinite speed feat that we could use as supporting evidence.

We have standards, "high standards" or anything doesn't allow one to ignore a blatant feat as this. Alien X has no more appearance than just 4 to 5 times, if you want to consider this feat outlier then go ahead and straight up argue entire universe creation feat to be a outlier and alien x being tier 10.

 

[ImmortalDread]

"Orbs" are literally shown to be Peace's of his body, unless you just straight up ignore the entire thing happened and keep forcing your overcomplicated interpretation above everyone else here.

Mind showing the proof? Because the opposing party's argument is kinda convincing tbh

 

[Reiner04]

Mind showing the proof? Because the opposing party's argument is kinda convincing tbh

That orbs are energy blast kinda thing? And alien X doing attack stuff or smth? We are literally shown that orbs are entirely same in appearance as of orbs inside the alien X body and it came from alien X body as well.

 

[ImmortalDread]

That orbs are energy blast kinda thing? And alien X doing attack stuff or smth? We are literally shown that orbs are entirely same in appearance as of orbs inside the alien X body and it came from alien X body as well.

I am talking about the statement that those orbs are part of him or pieces of him.

 

[Reiner04]

I am talking about the statement that those orbs are part of him or pieces of him.

"Statements" aren't needed for smth blatant dread. If statements are all that is always needed then we won't be having P&A based of showcase. Asking for smth that don't exist is not a argument, opposing party want Alien X to use telekinesis the same way as in starwars when it doesn't needed, Opposing party assertion is that Peace's aren't of alien X part when they exactly look same. The arguements against it needs scans, as arguements with it is already supported with what happened during the creation.

 

[Abu2411]

"Orbs" are literally shown to be Peace's of his body, unless you just straight up ignore the entire thing happened and keep forcing your overcomplicated interpretation above everyone else here.

The orbs are not shown to be distinct pieces of Alien X's body, all we see is that they come from Alien X, but not much indication of them being anything more than that. I don't think it's an over-complication at all to just take things as they are presented to us, rather than assuming Alien X did something we see no sign of him performing.

"Statements" aren't needed for smth blatant dread. If statements are all that is always needed then we won't be having P&A based of showcase. Asking for smth that don't exist is not a argument, opposing party want Alien X to use telekinesis the same way as in starwars when it doesn't needed, Opposing party assertion is that Peace's aren't of alien X part when they exactly look same. The arguements against it needs scans, as arguements with it is already supported with what happened during the creation.

Again, it is neither shown nor stated that those orbs were parts of Alien X's body. If you want to make that assumption, you would need proof of something like that.

That orbs are energy blast kinda thing?

I used energy blasts as an example, since with energy projection you aren't actually shooting out pieces of yourself are you? The blasts are separate entities from you.

What is shown that pieces of orbs came out of alien x body and went all over the Universe and there is no one else to do that but alien x mind. The very act of moving something with a thought is telekinesis, you can stop with a headcanon that alien X is not moving anything and universe got created in one thought when the steps that are involved is many.

Again, your argument requires proof that the orbs needed to be moved in the first place. Going by what is shown, they moved automatically to their intended destination.

Also, yes. Alien X did create the universe with a thought, we even have that on his profile.

We have standards, "high standards" or anything doesn't allow one to ignore a blatant feat as this. Alien X has no more appearance than just 4 to 5 times, if you want to consider this feat outlier then go ahead and straight up argue entire universe creation feat to be a outlier and alien x being tier 10.

High standards means we can't rely on questionable one off feats. Arguing for consistency doesn't mean I'm arguing against Alien X's tier or his creation ability. I'm perfectly fine with his tier and it's absolutely clear he can create a universe, that's not what I'm arguing against.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It's challenging to visually suggest that orbs are a part of him, so statements are necessary to support this claim. Additionally, I never claimed that the statements are a "must-have," so please don't bring that up as an argument.

Moreover, why would the orbs looking the same as they did prior to the last incident imply that they are a part of him?

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the OP's premise, as I have my own reasons for disagreeing with it. However, I do believe that the request for clarification regarding the orbs is a valid one.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Disagree.
This is ******* ridiculous.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Disagree.
This is ******* ridiculous.

Ya I never said I agree

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Ya I never said I agree

Who said it to ya girl

 

[ImmortalDread]

Who said it to ya girl

Idk, ig making my stance clear

 

[Omegabronic]

I am talking about the statement that those orbs are part of him or pieces of him.

you know the white dots we see in alien x body all the time, well that

 

[ImmortalDread]

you know the white dots we see in alien x body all the time, well that

So is that part of his appearance all the time?

 

[Omegabronic]

So is that part of his appearance all the time?

yeah

 

[Abu2411]

you know the white dots we see in alien x body all the time, well that

Which again doesn't prove the idea that Alien X was controlling those orbs.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Which again doesn't prove the idea that Alien X was controlling those orbs.

Then who was?

 

[Reiner04]

Which again doesn't prove the idea that Alien X was controlling those orbs.

It's just a one of most ridiculous arguement I have ever seen.

 

[Abu2411]

Then who was?

You're assuming that the orbs needed to be moved in the first place, when as I've said several times before, there is nothing to suggest such a thing.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

You're assuming that the orbs needed to be moved in the first place, when as I've said several times before, there is nothing to suggest such a thing.

Of course they need to be moved, they need to reach their intended destination in cosmos after all.

So can you explain how and why they moved the way they did?

 

[Abu2411]

Of course they need to be moved, they need to reach their intended destination in cosmos after all.

So can you explain how and why they moved the way they did?

Or they moved automatically by themselves. This is the simplest explanation, considering we see no indication of anything else. Neither a visual cue nor a single statement that would suggest otherwise.

 

[Omegabronic]

You're assuming that the orbs needed to be moved in the first place, when as I've said several times before, there is nothing to suggest such a thing.

the less assumptive route is that he was controlling them

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

This thread is giving me an aneurysm, leave it to battleboarders to turn the simplest argument ever into a 4 page thread

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

anyway, its a 1-17 ratio, so this thread should probably be closed

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Or they moved automatically by themselves. This is the simplest explanation, considering we see no indication of anything else. Neither a visual cue nor a single statement that would suggest otherwise.

So the balls are sentient and know automatically to move into their intended coordinates and have perfect intelligence and ability to morph into near perfect replicas of their versions from past erased universe?

 

[Reiner04]

So the balls are sentient and know automatically to move into their intended coordinates and have perfect intelligence and ability to morph into near perfect replicas of their versions from past erased universe?

Makes sense

 

[Abu2411]

the less assumptive route is that he was controlling them

It wouldn't be since we see no indication of him controlling the orbs in the first place. What we are shown are the orbs moving by themselves, and any further assumption such as Alien X being the one moving those orbs would require evidence to be based on.

So the balls are sentient and know automatically to move into their intended coordinates and have perfect intelligence and ability to morph into near perfect replicas of their versions from past erased universe?

No, all I'm saying is that to assume those orbs were moved by an external force requires at least some indication of such a thing happening, and we are not given one. So the simplest explanation in this scenario is that the orbs moved automatically.

 

[DemonicDude]

First off, Alien X has Body Control.

Second, you're overcomplicating the matter. Alien X was the only being/thing there. Alien X then decides to use his powers to recreate the universe.

Tell us. How is this not the chain of cause and effect?

Cause: Alien X decides to use his powers to recreate the universe​

​

Effect: Pieces from his body fly out.​

Can the effect "Pieces from his body fly out" occur if "Alien X decided not to use his powers"?

If not, then Alien X is definitively the cause of the pieces flying out.

It doesn't matter if it's telekinesis or not. Alien X's powers caused the movement of the pieces.

Your suggestion that the pieces moved independently with no direct cause from Alien X has no basis or precedent.

When faced with competing explanations for the same phenomenon, the simplest is likely the correct one. By Occam's Razor, Alien X being the cause has the least amount of assumptions.

Disagree with the downgrade.
Firestorm makes the most sense to me.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I'm going to ask staff to close this thread