Beholder and Possibly other DnD related Monster Revisions...

[GreyFang82]

Ok so I'll have to lay down a few things before I can start with what I would like to share the actual changes...

So First thing I need to do is put down a line of reasoning on why I think a Monster's CR rating should be used for scaling... At least to the DnD PCs at least

on the official website's building adventures articles

CR is "A monster's challenge rating is a guide to its overall power." and "monsters with a CR higher than a party's level pose a significant threat... and... can wear the characters down even in a straightforward battle."

So you get the idea, higher CR means Higher Level characters are needed to have an even fight, and although it is stated it's more of a recommendation than a hard rule, it's pretty clear by the advice that doing so will more likely than not end up as an unfair battle.

But what I care about is Characters scaling to Monsters...

So the Beholders have a CR of 13 which would Imply characters at Level 13 would be considered a fair fight...

Now in these Calculations done by WeeklyBattles he found the energy certain spells put out. One of those spells is Tsunami which is a Level 8 Spell that gives off High 8-C levels of energy, The level that the spell is learned is well below the level you'd need to be to have a fair fight with a Beholder, So I think it would be safe to put a Beholder in High 8-C in terms of at Least Durability as for it's AP I say we keep it the same as I fail to find any evidence that a Beholder can unleash a comparable or even higher level of energy than what is already listed on it's profile.

What is your thoughts on this guys?

 

[GreyFang82]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

You can check the Knowledgeable Members List for people who know Dungeons and Dragons well, and ask them to comment here, if you want some replies.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Hop somewhat can help. Hop plays D&D.

 

[GreyFang82]

Hop, what's your thoughts on this?

 

[Antvasima]

@Hop

Okay. Thanks.

 

[GreyFang82]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I am not very familiar with Dungeons and Dragons. Sorry.

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

This seems reasonable to me, and since an adventurer at the required level would have to have, in order to be deemed fair, similar AP and Durability to the Beholder, then the Beholder's AP should be High 8-C as well as they can harm said adventurer.

 

[GreyFang82]

@Ant

Hey I have a question, I could only find one person who's on the knowledgable memeber's group for DnD.

I notified him and he's yet to respond, and Hop also seems to be busy...

What should I do? Should I just give up on this upgrade? There is a clear lack of people who understand the verse and because of that shortage I won't have people with enough authority to make a conclusive decision...

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

@GreyFang

I'm confused, Am I not reliable in terms of contributing to something or are you waiting for others to comment?

 

[GreyFang82]

@Serpent

I'm really sorry if that comes of as rude (it kinda does and I'm sorry for that...)

But 1 person wouldn't be enough to make a change like this unfortunately...

I really appreciate your input tho and I assume you know about DnD and it's lore and mechanics pretty well but usually if we have either a lot of people agreeing or people in more authoritative positions agreeing with a content revision the more likely we can add it... Does that make sense?

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

Yes it does and thank you for clarifying, I just got worried as I've been ignored before which makes me feel like I did something wrong unknowinglly, thus making me worried. So once again thanks for the clarification.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally think that this seems to make sense, but again, I am not familiar with the mechanics of Dungeons and Dragons, and would prefer further staff and community input first.

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

Understandable then

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Hop thinks the scaling to game mechanics is logical, as that is how the GM/DM quantifies the enemies, and if you want to use the calcs and reason to scale the Beholder, it's pretty sensible to have the durability go to that level.

The only thing that wouldn't hold ground in the same is rolling a nat 20 or something that caused bleeding damage, as it would be up to what type of enemy and what the lore/DM has to say about it.

Again, Hop plays but let's allow the lore to take priority over the community when it comes to future incidents since the game is a group story telling tool.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that you can scale from comparative statistics then.

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

@Hop

Makes sense.

Though imo about the D20 problem, rolling a natural 20 is similiar to getting a critical hit in Pokemon, as both of these apply extra damage and have only a possibility of happening.

Based on what I've seen on the wiki though, critical hits aren't used to determine a fight, or all Pokemon would have the possibility of having a unfair advantage against their opponents, so I'd think its safe to apply the same logic to the possiblitly of rolling a natural 20.

 

[Aeyu]

The Everlasting and I have agreed in private discussions that the entire verse needs to be redone, from the lowest tiers to the god-tiers, but we both thought that such a task would require many more individuals to properly be done. If this could become an DnD general revisions thread, that might be very helpful.

 

[GreyFang82]

@Aeyu that's fine, I'm down to help but what are we changing and how are we doing it?

The Scaling idea I'm trying to push is that monsters that have a CR equal to or greater than a PC both would scale to each other so if a monster with a CR of 8 then they should be Large Building Level as a PC learns Tsunami at Level 8. So scale to CR and Levels a Spell is learned.

 

[Aeyu]

Mostly everything. I corrected the stats and made sure that Luminous Being and Ao (Dungeons and Dragons) were up to par, as directed by a CRT, but everything beneath it seems heavily based on assumption, having many contradictory statistics. Also, I have been told in confidence that at least one of the blogs used for the lower tiers has a faulty calc in it.

 

[GreyFang82]

So... are you saying we can't find the rating for the monsters?

And is WeeklyBattle's calcs the one that's faulty?

If not then what's your thoughts on this revision thread?

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

@Aeyu

I can see why with a portion of it, such as how all but one of the characters in tier 7 rely on a blog that people have disagreed with multiple times, though I would like specifics on this.

 

[Antvasima]

If the calculation is unreliable, you can ask here to get a new version:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1221598

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So... are you saying we can't find the rating for the monsters?
And is WeeklyBattle's calcs the one that's faulty?

If not then what's your thoughts on this revision thread?

I believe he is referring to the one don by ThePerpetual, which even he stated is faulty

 

[Antvasima]

Well, a new version of the calculation for the feat seems necessary then.

 

[ThePerpetual]

I don't promise to be any kind of major presence on this wiki anymore, but... one of the things I was planning on doing here soon was finding new feats for rating Tabletop d20 characters, since I remembered mine being a bit controversial back in the day.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

How are these Perp?

 

[ThePerpetual]

Looks nice enough, and consistent... I may have a few things more impressive, though. Or perhaps Pathfinder is just higher in scale than 5e.

Also, I'm fairly certain that Disintegrate refers to a cube that is 10 feet on each side, not 10 cubic feet in total. There'd be no reason for them to design it that way from a mechanical perspective, seeing as the game uses increments of 5 ft for unit movement.

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

Not to be excessive, but can anyone on this thread redo the faulty calcs at some point or if they already are in process, just wondering when it would be done, or is this something I should suggest the calc group to take care of?

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask here:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1221598

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

I have done so.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.