Beerus High 3A or 2C?

[SSJRyu1]

I believe that Beerus and up should be classified as at least high 3A tier, if not 2C tier, and Goku should be minimally 3A, possibly as high as 2C as well. Here's my reasoning for this.

1. In episode 12 of DBS when the elder kai talks about Beerus and Goku's clash destroying the universes, he qualifies this by saying it will destroy "people, planets, gods like us even Beerus and Goku". This implies he is referring to the universe as the macrocosm, not just the living universe since he lumps in himself and other gods like him into what will be destroyed by the clash.

2. Further to support this, the shockwaves are seen in the final clash with Goku and Beerus in episode 13 reaching North kais planet in other world, as he screams and runs around his planet.

3. Also in the kaioshin realm as well in episode 13 we see kaioshin squinting, anticipating his death, and is then surprised that the Universe is still intact, only to be told by the elder kai that the ki they see burst into their dimension is from Goku and Beerus clash, and that the fate of the universe is still being decided, further proving that the ki is already exceeding the bounds of the living universe even while the clash is going on and the kaioshin expect the clash to reach even them as part of Universe 7.

4. Further when referring to the macrocosm they often refer to it as just universe 7, or universe 6 so it is clear to me when they say universe they often if not all the time mean the macrocosm, not just the living universe.

5. Also it would be illogical for the other dimensions to not be destroyed since they are further from the point of origin of the shockwaves, which are supposed to get stronger as they move further, and clearly they are reaching the other dimensions.

6. Finally the elder kai remarks in episode 12 that "it is time to say goodbye" to kibito kai, when Goku and Beerus clash happens, and then gives him a "parting gift" further proving they are referring to the macrocosm being destroyed, not just the living universe.

So based on these 6 things from DBS alone I can conclude Beerus and Goku's clash would have destroyed the entire macrocosm, not just the living universe.

As for the size of the macrocosm, it is well known that the other world is about the same size as the living universe which is stated to have "countless galaxies" in the manga at least so far, and is pretty much accepted as the same size as our own universe. But for people who are reluctant to use the map from daizenshuu as a visual aid to compare the other world and kaioshin realm to the living universes size we can just use the map that is shown in DBK, which confirms it is that macrocosm setup that we are used to.

Now as for Why I think Beerus and Goku could be placed in the 2C range, although it is said that their clash will turn the universe (macrocosm) into a void, it should be noted this was from mere punches early on, and also it was while Goku was still gaining power, he increases his power multiple times after this statement, so limiting him to it is not accurate.

Also doing this would in fact have to cross through dimensions and their spacial makeup and barriers, and we have seen that it starts to do this just from the clash of Beerus and Goku's energy attacks. Furthermore tearing open space and time and warping them is not uncommon, we have seen beings like Gotenks and Buu do this on a small scale, with Buuhan threatening to warp space to the point that the universe would be crushed by alternate dimensions (it is in kai). So it's not a new thing that their power can and does warp space-time. I don't see a reason to think that Beerus and Goku's clash would not equate to 2C category destruction when Buu was already almost there given a lot of time, and we already have seen that Beerus and Goku's attacks were breaching through multiple dimensions.

Also worth noting is that it is stated in Chozenshuu that Beerus power is "in a completely different dimension" Which I personally think can be interpreted as a 4D being, it would make sense since 3D beings can't sense him and can't hope to defeat him without reaching godly levels themselves.

So we can indeed conclude that Beerus and Goku were going to destroy a macrocosm bigger than 2 universes with an orbiting dimension about 1/5 the size of the living universe. ANd of course Beerus also nullifies this all to without even using full power. This minimally makes them high 3A if we don't accept them as spacial warping attacks, and imo it makes them 2C since they have shown the capacity to breach dimensional barriers and far inferior characters have warped space in the past with their power, and even threatened the universe by doing it.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

From the way i understand our tiering system beerus will never be high 3-A much less low 2-C.To be high 3-A you have to be able to destroy an infinite amount of physical matter but to become low 2-C basically you need some sort of hax to destroy the space-time of one universe.In other words unless beerus is infinitely more powerful than what we have seen so far he wont ever be high 3-A and becoming low 2-C is impossible unless he has some sort of hax.

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta-]

Ryu? This is quite a surprise.

 

[Antvasima]

To be High 3-A, a character must have literally infinite 3-D power.

To be Low 2-C, it must be able to destroy an entire universal 4-D spacetime continuum.

We do not have any such indications from them yet.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Good to know the prerequisites for tiering. However We do see that Beerus and Goku's clash does tear through dimensional walls and enter the kaioshin realm just from clashing, not even the detonation. So we know it crosses through multiple dimensions. And not just shockwaves but the actual explosion of energy.

Also getting back to Buuhan, he is stated by Vegito in kai to be able to destroy the universe by crushing it with alternate dimensions, and Vegito even says after that he should turn that power onto him and prove he is the strongest, this implies that Buu's own power had the ability to move dimensions and crush the universe, Would that not be universal+ spacial warping, as it is not just matter but the very universe that was going to be crushed and manipulated, as well as other dimensions? Considering Gotenks showcased the same ability on a smaller scale and Beerus is vastly superior to them I would think that kind of power should easily be scaled to Beerus, but at full macroversal levels.

Also beerus has been stated to have his power on a whole other dimension to, further implying imo 4D power.

So while I see your point on looking at just super that it could be interpreted as just the matter with slight tears in space time, going from past inferior characters like Buuhan they clearly have the raw power to warp space at universal levels. I will check if I can find more instances of space/time warping to further back up my stance but I believe what I already presented should be enough, it is for me anyway.

Also a side note when looking at the statement he says it would turn the "universe" into a void, would that not include energy? To destroy energy you would need hax that warp it out of existence in some way, or at least be able to create something to absorb it llike a black hole, so even turning the universe (macrocausm actually) into a vacuum I would think is well above regular universal levels.

Final thing, even if we ignored Buuhan and the fact Beerus and Goku's feat was actually macroversal and able to destroy energy itself (physically impossible) the macroverse would be bigger than 2 universes so if Goku contributed half the power of that attack that can macroverse bust then he should minimally be 3A as well.

 

[Promestein]

"Dimensions" =/= actual dimensions.

Affecting another universe from a different universe means absolutely nothing in terms of dimensional feats. The universe of the Kais is not a seperate dimension, and is likely not separated by actual dimensions. It's just a different universe, at best.

People say that sort of thing all the time. If we took it seriously, we'd have 2-C Aizen and High 2-A Ichigo.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Ryu? This is quite a surprise.

Yeah, I had a bit of extra time and I like the progress the wiki has been making so I thought I would submit a few thoughts I had on the power of DBZ Gods.

 

[SSJRyu1]

"Dimensions" =/= actual dimensions.

Well I agree, i'm not claiming he is moving full dimensional plains like 4 and 5 levels, in this context they seem to be referring to space time continuums, like the other world or kaioshin realm or the universe. But still, even crushing the universe with alternate "universes" for lack of a better term by raw power I would think warrants at least low 2C power if not outright 2C.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I would like to mention that things like the Kaioshin Realm, Hell, etc. are all part of universe 7. They're just not part of the living universe. Also, the living universe has an edge, meaning it is finite in size, so destroying all matter in U7 is at best 3-A, not High 3-A.

 

[SomebodyData]

Nice, a youtube star.

To finish this quickly I should remind you that the difference between 3-A and 2-C is astroniomical. Not just astronomical, its literally infinity.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I would like to mention that things like the Kaioshin Realm, Hell, etc. are all part of universe 7. They're just not part of the living universe. Also, the living universe has an edge, meaning it is finite in size, so destroying all matter in U7 is at best 3-A, not High 3-A.

To true on the finite size of the universe, although the living universe should be the same size as ours, so the macrocosm as a whole should be more than twice the size of our universe. So considering that even at half the power of the clash Goku should still be past universal since the clash was gonna destroy the macrocosm, so at least 3A like Beerus.

Although I still think Buuhan's feat of crushing the universe with alternate dimensions (universes) due to his own raw power would qualify as 2C, since he is destroying the universe itself, not just matter, and manipulating not just the universe but other dimensions to destroy it, confirmed when Vegito says to focus that power he showed onto him. And of course as Gotenks can use the technique on a smaller scale and Beerus is vastly superior logically the feat would scale to his macroversal destruction. I may be mistaken though as I am new to the wiki.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Nice, a youtube star.

To finish this quickly I should remind you that the difference between 3-A and 2-C is astroniomical. Not just astronomical, its literally infinity.

Thanks for the compliment. And yes I do agree the difference in power is theoretically infinite.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Good to know the prerequisites for tiering. However We do see that Beerus and Goku's clash does tear through dimensional walls and enter the kaioshin realm just from clashing, not even the detonation. So we know it crosses through multiple dimensions. And not just shockwaves but the actual explosion of energy.
Also getting back to Buuhan, he is stated by Vegito in kai to be able to destroy the universe by crushing it with alternate dimensions, and Vegito even says after that he should turn that power onto him and prove he is the strongest, this implies that Buu's own power had the ability to move dimensions and crush the universe, Would that not be universal+ spacial warping, as it is not just matter but the very universe that was going to be crushed and manipulated, as well as other dimensions? Considering Gotenks showcased the same ability on a smaller scale and Beerus is vastly superior to them I would think that kind of power should easily be scaled to Beerus, but at full macroversal levels.

Also beerus has been stated to have his power on a whole other dimension to, further implying imo 4D power.

So while I see your point on looking at just super that it could be interpreted as just the matter with slight tears in space time, going from past inferior characters like Buuhan they clearly have the raw power to warp space at universal levels. I will check if I can find more instances of space/time warping to further back up my stance but I believe what I already presented should be enough, it is for me anyway.

Also a side note when looking at the statement he says it would turn the "universe" into a void, would that not include energy? To destroy energy you would need hax that warp it out of existence in some way, or at least be able to create something to absorb it llike a black hole, so even turning the universe (macrocausm actually) into a vacuum I would think is well above regular universal levels.

Final thing, even if we ignored Buuhan and the fact Beerus and Goku's feat was actually macroversal and able to destroy energy itself (physically impossible) the macroverse would be bigger than 2 universes so if Goku contributed half the power of that attack that can macroverse bust then he should minimally be 3A as well.

The clash between beerus and goku did reach the kaioshin realm however we arent exactly sure if there is some sort of dimensional barrier between the otherworld and the living world as it was never sated to have one and whis has also been shown to travel from the living world to the other world so it could be said that there is no dimensional barrier there and it could be reach just by being fast enough but i wont use that arguement because whis is imo clearly more than capable of breaking dimensional barriers.So it basically comes down to there being no real evidence of a dimensional barrier existing though logically there should be one but we need the evidence to support that.As for buuhan he was going to destroy the universe but that was going to be over time by collapsing the dimensional walls between the universe and also added to the fact that that was not in the original manga if i remember correctly.Buu and gotenks have been shown to be able to rip holes in dimensions but beerus himself hasnt shown he has that sort of ability though he clearly does but we dont know if he can use that on a universal scale so again we have to see him demostrate the ability to do that before assuming he can.I am not exactly a scientist here but destroying energy does require hax and beerus has been shown to negate energy but destroying all energy in the universe though i am not sure if that is above universe levels.From what i understand is that even if beerus and goku could destroy infinite universes they would only be high 3-A because that is a 3 dimension feat and they are limited by being 3 dimension unless they have hax to destroy space-time which is 4 dimensional.Before upgrading beerus and goku we need to have evidence of them being capable of destroying space-time which at this point i dont see the closest person i can see it happening is with whis if whis had unlimited time control and destroy time in one universe he would be low 2-C from my undestanding.On your goku being universal point though they were indeed gonna destroy more than 2 universes but that was gonna be in 2.5 blows so i would say goku tiering would still be correct he is on the verge of being universe,multi-galaxy+ is correct.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Buuhan was not crushing the universe on his own. He was collapsing the walls between it and the other realms of universe 7, which is an originally filler feat and is rather nonsensical. It also scales to nobody (as even Buuhan wouldn't have survived it and it was done with a specific technique).

 

[Antvasima]

@SomebodyStupid Yes. That said, it is sometimes hard to gauge the difference between 3-A and Low 2-C, especially as some fictions such as Saint Seiya mostly ignore the gap, and regrettably there are probably quite a few profiles in this wiki that have listed 3-A characters as Low 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth Agreed. Destroying dimensional walls between different universes is unquantifiable. Even the Hulk has done it repeatedly.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Well we actually do have confirmation of dimensional barriers between them, in fact the living world is composed of multiple "dimensions" the universe, and demon realm as well as others.

According to chozenshuu/daizenshuu

The Living World ÒüôÒü«õ©û/konoyo Translation: this world (in contrast to "that world", the afterlife) AKA: þÅ¥õ©û/gensei ("the present world")

The living world is the lower half of the macrocosm. It's perfectly sealed within opaque walls marked with strange patterns, in contrast to the transparent crystalline dome that covers the afterlife. The living world is split into two dimensions described as being like the two sides of a coin. The top half is the universe, overseen by the Kaio and Kaioshin, and run according to science (or what passes for it in the DB world). The bottom half is the Demon Realm, where magic has more sway than science, and where the evil Makaio and Makaioshin are gods. Despite the two dimensions being polar opposites like this, when beings from each one die, their spirit still travels to the afterlife with no distinction. There are apparently other dimensions that can be accessed from the living world (such as the Room of Spirit and Time, and Sugoroku Space in GT), but it's unclear where they fit into the grand scheme of things.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11596

So we know they are all separate dimensions, and the pictures from even kai confirm it.

I do agree Whis can clearly cross dimensional barriers. Also instant transmission and instantaneous movement can as well.

Buuhan seemed to be an instant threat, Vegito said "hes all fired up, if I don't stop him the universe will be crushed by alternate dimensions" Then he immediately gets serious and stops him. So in a rage Buuhan can do it within their battle timeframe, also kai removed a lot of the charge time for it from the original Z, this occurs in about a minute. Considering Buu's raw power can crush the universe with alternate universes, I don't see how that could be considered less than 2C. True it is not in the original manga, but I thought we used kai in the wiki to.

As for Goku, well I see your stance, but consider for a second the inverse square law, if we are talking about pure space covered with energy, it would take significantly more energy to cover the macrocosm than just he living universe as the distance would more than double to reach the kaioshin realm and other world to, so if we factor that I think wed find him easily 3A as well, and factoring Buu likely both are 2C imo, since Buu's feat manipulates "dimesnions" to crush the universe.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Buuhan was not crushing the universe on his own. He was collapsing the walls between it and the other realms of universe 7, which is an originally filler feat and is rather nonsensical. It also scales to nobody (as even Buuhan wouldn't have survived it and it was done with a specific technique).

In kai though it never says any of that. It only says "hes all fired up, if I don't stop him the universe will be crushed by alternate dimensions" Also it is stated in Z he is warping space to cause the feat, so if you use that statement from Z, then you ahve to accept he also can warp space on universal levels. Clearly he can minimum manipulate the universal space to allow it to be crushed by the alternate dimensions on universal scales, if not the other dimensions to crush the universe with. As for it not being scaled, I don't see why not, Gotenks can do the same skill, and Vegito tells Buu to focus that power against him, so it was raw power, not a special ability, also it never states Buuhan will die either.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, all that we saw were physical shockwaves that were tearing the physical structure of the larger universe apart. Consistency with the guides is not usually a big thing in Dragon Ball. If it was we would still gauge the DB universe as having only 4 galaxies.

And all that we have explicit proof of from Buu is that he can destroy a galaxy given several years of time.

You are currently breaking the rules of this site, both by bringing up a forbidden topic and by interfering while we are in the middle of a massive revision project.

We are not ever going to rate Dragon Ball characters as High 3-A until we get proof from DB super that they have literally infinite power, and we are not ever going to rate them as Low 2-C until we get new proof that they can destroy or create entire 4-Dimensional spacetime continuums.

I would strongly suggest that you immediately permanently drop this topic. Thank you.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Nothing implies Gotenks can do the same thing. As I said before, it is a nonsensical filler feat, and was done by Buuhan as a last resort. If Vegito wouldn't have survived it, Buuhan certainly wouldn't have, either. As Ant said, even the Hulk has replicated this sort of feat, before. It's really nothing special, and vastly contradicts all other showings. Buuhan never shows universal range, power, or durability, and even with how out of place this feat is, destroying a finite universe via chain reaction is not a 3-A feat, and certainly not Low 2-C.