Battle of the strongest non-smurf High 8-C #2 - Ainz Ooal Gown vs Toujou Karuna

[DeathNoodles]

Both are at High 8-C. Ainz is allowed access of his other higher-tiered abilities. Speed is equal. SBA otherwise.

Majestic Skeleto:

Blessed Cheater:

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Omg calm down to many matches slijasgjoiafjo

 

[DeathNoodles]

Sasuga Ainz-Sama deserves a position much greater than the measly #5.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Ainz uses Grasp Heart, it gets resisted, Ainz uses Time Stop and starts just testing stuff on Toujou, likely ending in him one shotting with with his 7-B magic

 

[DeathNoodles]

Based on Toujou's profile, he also resists Death Manipulation.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Grasp Heart is death hax, that's why i said it gets resisted, which leads Ainz to using Time Stop and testing spells on Toujou

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Im not sure its going to be much of a testing phase, ainz uses grasp heart/misc death hax (He's shown a proclivaty to open with a few different ones at this point) timestops, triplicate delay maximize magic reality slash (Dura neg thats totally not neccesarry) Bunch of other high tier spells. Timestop ends and toujou gets bombarded on all sides by 7b magic.

 

[Apeironaxim]

giving him Resistance against Mind Control and Instant Death based on Magic.

Welp, never thought this would come up, but skills aren't treated as magic in YGGDRASIL, so Ainz's Despair Aura V still works

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Why did you skip Anri, she has some nasty stuff too

 

[DeathNoodles]

@Oblivion Of The Endless

Because Anri lost her place to Toujou.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

giving him Resistance against Mind Control and Instant Death based on Magic.
Welp, never thought this would come up, but skills aren't treated as magic in YGGDRASIL, so Ainz's Despair Aura V still works

Holy hell we finally get to bring up this totally random fact that we never thought would see the light of a debate I cant fricken beleive...OH my god just really...its finally relevant lmao

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

@Oblivion Of The Endless
Because Anri lost her place to Toujou.

I mean, it depends on Ainz's resistances

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Look lets deal with the four matches ainz already has going before we start adding more fuel to the fire my fingers aren't that fast! D:

 

[DontTalkDT]

Wish I could use actual Karuna...

But ok, will have to go with what is translated.

This basically comes down to who uses the correct hax first. Which Karuna might have an advantage in, because he has complete appraisal and precognition, while Ainz probably judges him as some mage or warrior far below his own level.


Btw. Despair Aura will never trigger. It has a high chance to happen, which Karuna will make happen 0% of the time due to Good LuckÒâ╗Extremity.

 

[Apeironaxim]

it being chance was a game mechanic in YGGDRASIL, now it's going to just be you either resist it or you don't

 

[Apeironaxim]

Wish I could use actual Karuna...
But ok, will have to go with what is translated.

This basically comes down to who uses the correct hax first. Which Karuna might have an advantage in, because he has complete appraisal and precognition, while Ainz probably judges him as some mage or warrior far below his own level.

why does everyone keep saying Ainz will underestimate his opponents?

No, he won't, he will treat this seriously as his opponent is completely unknown to him. Not to mention he's suddenly teleported to modern day New York. Ainz is going to be in full paranoid mode, taking this seriously

Ainz also resists Info Analysis

 

[DontTalkDT]

it being chance was a game mechanic in YGGDRASIL, now it's going to just be you either resist it or you don't

Proof? Profile explicitly says high chance.

why does everyone keep saying Ainz will underestimate his opponents?

Because he has spells like Life Essence and Mana Essence which will tell him that the opponent is no apparent thread to him. Also because he does in fact not act overly careful against people he knows are statistically weaker than him. Remember when Ainz stood in front of an entire army and cast super tier magic with a long cast time to see if some other player is part of the army? If anyone of those would have had Karuna's level of hax he would have died right there.

Or the dudes with angels, which he toyed with despite having almost no knowledge on them? Ainz most of the time isn't remotely as efficient as you make him out to be.

Ainz also resists Info Analysis

"It can break through usual resistance to appraisal." <- Karuna's page regarding his appraisal.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Because he has spells like Life Essence and Mana Essence which will tell him that the opponent is no apparent thread to him. Also because he does in fact not act overly careful against people he knows are statistically weaker than him. Remember when Ainz stood in front of an entire army and cast super tier magic with a long cast time to see if some other player is part of the army? If anyone of those would have had Karuna's level of hax he would have died right there.

Or the dudes with angels, which he toyed with despite having almost no knowledge on them? Ainz most of the time isn't remotely as efficient as you make him out to be.

Ainz also uses tier 8 and above spells like Death and Reality Slash on fodder, as well Time Stop

except he knew those angels were from YGGDRASIL and he saw the soldiers casting low tier YGGDRASIL magic on Gazef

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yet he didn't know which kind of spell was inside that magic crystal they had in advance. If that would have been some otherworldly OP spell he would be dead.

Death is resisted, reality slash dodged. Time Stop presumably works, but at least as far as anime and manga go he only ever used that on gazef. And Ainz can't attack while time is stopped, so he tries instant death, Karuna resists and a second time stop isn't happening.

On the other hand Karuna gets Ainz' Information and can then just power steal with a brief thought.

 

[Apeironaxim]

except he had an idea though? Nigun literally said it contained an angel of the highest order, and ordered Albedo to ready her defenses for a fight in case it was a high level angel


he used Time Stop on the workers, Gazef, Brightness Dragon Lord, contemplated it on Cure Elim but assumed since he was a dragon lord like Brightness Dragon Lord he would resist, and even then he thought about doing it just to see if the undead on his body would resist, and explained how he liked to use Time Stop to discern his enemies resistances and weaknesses on an enemy Overlord, but was in a hurry so he just spammed Reality Slash on it and insta killed it

you're right, he can't attack while in it, but has mastered Delay metamagic so his spells hit the exact instant Time Stop ends

 

[FDrybob]

Also Maruyama said that you need Instant Death and Time Stop countermeasures to have a fair fight with Ainz. He is going to use them both very quickly. Ainz only ever lets his guard down when he knows in advance that the enemy isn't a threat to him. Even if they have low stats, that isn't enough to set him at ease. Remember that random undead from the bonus novel that Ainz hid from for so long?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Id like to mention ainz would never trust mana essence life or mana essence on their own to identify a characters strength as it was incredibly common in yggdrasil to use false data life and false data mana to trick you opponent into thinking your far weaker then you actually are. Heck ainz scolds shalltear because she doesn't think of the possiblity ainz is using false data. Its one of the reasons ainz is such a paranoid bastard, yggdrasil was full of ways to screw with your opponent.

This was often compounded by the nonthreatening appearance of certain characters, look at mare and aura, they hardly seem threatening but mare has the highest aoe damaging ability out of the guardians and auras best at fighting groups of enemies due to her mastery of animals. The main threat to beings like ainz were nonthreatening humans. If anything if ainz see's his stats are to low/to high he's going to go into panic mode and assume he's against a super powerful opponent.

You are aware he spent a total of three years in hiding researching the world around him before that battle right? That he also had his self revive ring and mare on hand to protect him if a player actually showed up? He used himself as bait but he was prepared if a player actually appeared.

It took him nine volumes to get confident in a world where their are a total of like six threatening beings and all of them are to divided to move against him... Even with all the dragon lords working together they'd still lose if ainz teleported back to the tomb as it could beat an invasion of over 1400 beings just as strong as ainz himself was.

Despite having what is essentially an impregnable fortress and npcs that are a match for the top entities of new world (And massive supply of them at that, over two hundred npcs over level eighty) Despite all that it took him ages to move out to new world in a serious capacity. Heck it's why some fans have been complaining ainz always assumes theirs a bigger fish circling him just out of sight, he always thinks theres some giant super omega enemy or other player he has to be prepared for.

Being forcibly teleported and forced to fight a random human? This is the exact kind of thing his paranoia has him terrified of...

 

[DontTalkDT]

except he had an idea though? Nigun literally said it contained an angel of the highest order, and ordered Albedo to ready her defenses for a fight in case it was a high level angel

He didn't know before the fight. Meaning he would have run into without instantly finishing them off even if that was an extremely dangerous spell.

Also Maruyama said that you need Instant Death and Time Stop countermeasures to have a fair fight with Ainz. He is going to use them both very quickly.

Instant Death is resisted, though. And just because you need time stop countermeasures in Overlord that doesn't mean it applies to different fictions.

Btw. Karuna has probably better time manipulation magic than Ainz, so if Karuna can react to it he can counter time magic with time magic. Karuna is precognitive...

The pen or the sword"]

Being forcibly teleported and forced to fight a random human? This is the exact kind of thing his paranoia has him terrified of... [/quote]
If he is so scared of Karuna, wouldn't he start with a spell he knows to have an effect even on a presumably high tiered opponent, rather than one that any high tier player resists?

Anyway, you guys are forgetting one important thing: Karuna has insane luck.

Look at every starting move Ainz ever did against an unknown opponent. If there is one in there that doesn't finish off Karuna, Karuna will luck himself into Ainz using that one. Ainz would have to use something that instantly wins this battle next to 100% of the time to actually stand a chance.

As people here said, things like instant death spells and reality slash are techniques he could use against an unknown opponent. Those wouldn't work. So Karuna lucks himself into Ainz using exactly those.

 

[Apeironaxim]

except he had an idea though? Nigun literally said it contained an angel of the highest order, and ordered Albedo to ready her defenses for a fight in case it was a high level angel

He didn't know before the fight. Meaning he would have run into without instantly finishing them off even if that was an extremely dangerous spell.

i don't know what you're saying here, he didn't know the crystal was even a thing until Nigun pulled it out and then loudly proclaimed it was an angel, everything else they had done was low tier stuff that would get nulled anyway, yet he immediately prepared for a fight when Nigun brought out the crystal

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Pretty sure Ainz already knew what those Slaine dudes were capable of and even with the crystal, he knew the maximum threat level and started preparing for it.

Also it's already been pointed out, being high tier or comparable to him doesn't mean he wouldn't use time-stop, even though logically level 70 or something above would have countermeasures against it.

Ainz does have a luck modifier but a DnD nerd might say it does something different lol.

 

[DontTalkDT]

i don't know what you're saying here, he didn't know the crystal was even a thing until Nigun pulled it out

That's the point. He went to play with an unknown enemy without having full knowledge of their equipment and decided to have a casual conversation with them instead of killing them right away.

 

[Apeironaxim]

they were there to kill a single man, Gazef, because of the threat he posed, and watched the multitude of stuff they used to almost bring him down. From what he saw, they could do literally nothing to him as it would all get nulled if used on him

and even then, he didn't want to kill all of them, he wanted to take them alive to get information since this is his first contact into the New World, so him not killing them is related to the context of the scene and has a legit reason in the story

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

I mean ainz luck is pretty out their as well, ended a conspiracy to unite the kingdoms of man against him by accident, saved an entire race and enslaved another because he showed up at the right time, gave a girl who just happened to meet the right criteria a trash tier item that then summoned an army of goblins rather then the ten it was meant to. Created a religion around himself in a nation full of undead hating palidins...again by accident.

He's in a fight against an unkown opponent so he's liable to have his aura active to test if his enemy resist inta death/mental effects.

He had a conversation with them after observing how they fought gazef and coming to the conclusion they were far weaker then him, even then he didn't switch with gazef till the last second to ensure he got more information. The crystal wasn't something nigun was liable to have as it was far higher tier then anything else his group used even then he still had albedo at his side if things went sideways.

Further he immediately prepared for it after seeing it in person by having albedo use her skill that could absorb any attack directed at him in exchange for destroying one layer of her armor...It was literally impossible for what was in that crystal to one shot him at that point.

This scenario is in no way similar to gazef, he has been torn from his reality into a modern version of earth that is nothing like he's ever seen, and faced against an opponent he has never seen before. He has no time to observe, prepare, or plan around his opponent, he's not going to have a conversation with him at this point.

Ainz has never once in all of overlord been in a situation like sba demands, every fight within his own series involves elements he's already been informed of or had time to observe...Something he doesn't get here, tbf to ainz time manip abilities apparently timestop isn't the only form of time manip in yggdrasil that the ring lets you resist, heck theirs an entire subset of overlord that specializes in time magic (Overlord chronomancer irrc), we just don't know what it's capable of.

The closest situation was when he first faced knights in new world and even after observing them using steel swords and slaughtering helpless villagers he was so terrified they'd be level one thousand gods he left open his gate spell with sebas standing watch in nazerick and prepared to run for the hills if his estimations of their strength was wrong and remember this is after watching them slaughter a good portion of the village and not seeing them use any powerful abilities or showing any signs of being high level.

 

[DeathNoodles]

"It can break through usual resistance to appraisal." <- Karuna's page regarding his appraisal.

Ainz has Resistance to Resistance Negation in his profile. I don't see how breaking through usual resistances is going to get past Ainz's resistance to the said resistance-breaking.

 

[DontTalkDT]

He's in a fight against an unkown opponent so he's liable to have his aura active to test if his enemy resist inta death/mental effects.

As said, Aura doesn't trigger due to Karuna's luck. He would have to activate it first anyway (as Ainz doesn't have it passively active at all times), so should the aura actually have an effect Karuna would luck into him doing something else first.

It was literally impossible for what was in that crystal to one shot him at that point.

Only impossible by the standards of power and abilities he knew. The same way Karuna by his own worlds rules wouldn't be able to do anything against Ainz.

Ainz has never once in all of overlord been in a situation like sba demands,

Meaning you can't know that Ainz would go for anything in particular. If Ainz doesn't calmly analyse then he probably also doesn't lead with things that might have no effect whatsoever on a powerful enemy that might kill him given the slightest chance.

So Karuna wins 55% of the time, which becomes 99% of the time due to his luck.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Umm no ainz is a paranoid bastard ripped from his reality into a world that doesn't resemble anything he has seen before in his life (His own reality was very different from modern earth, he's liable to be surpised by the lack of dead orphans litering the streets)

And faced with a human opponent this is the exact scenario he's been terrified of from the get go, humans were always the biggest threat to him. His aura is actually passive he has to toggle it off to avoid casualties/problems but in a combat scenario where he knows nothing I don't see why he would have it down.

No impossible by most standards, any hit directed at ainz would have been absorbed by albedo and destroyed part of her armor, saying that if it was way over ainz pay-grade it would have oneshot albedo but the fact remains unless his opponent had some skill or ability to ignore albedos attack draw and absorption it wouldn't be feasible to oneshot him.

You keep wanking off his luck as this end all be all factor and Im not quite buying it at the moment... The description at the very least doesn't make it out to be that amazing, always winning at a casino by pure chance is very impressive but what else has it done? What unbelievable things has it caused? If it's got some super amazing feats Ill buy it but the profile doesn't give much in the way of context for this ability.

Also you haven't addressed deaths point about ainz resistance negation resistance

Question though why cant ainz oneshot him with his 7b spells? Outside of death manip and memory/pain manip what saves toujou from timestop and reality slash? Ainz won't use one spell against an unkown opponent in the side novel against an opponent he observed for a bit he teleported in during time stopp triplicated maximized magic reality slash along with a bunch of other high tier spells and teleported out. Or against the ancient tree where he turned the thing into a massive christmas decoration with all his spells.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Supernatural Luck, like all abilities in this site, are evaluated by feats (especially in a combat applicable manner). If there aren't any showings or reliable statements that states the scale of their capabilities, it shouldn't be assumed so otherwise. Even characters like Nagito Komaeda actually has feats to back up their supernatural luck ability rather than just having nothing but NLF. If Toujou's supernatural luck hasn't shown any showings of operating outside of a casino, it shouldn't even be assumed that his luck could operate outside of a casino (his profile didn't even suggest that his luck works outside of a casino... So I doubt we can assume it to be combat applicable without it being NLF, unless Toujou actually has showings of it in combat).

Question though why cant ainz oneshot him with his 7b spells?

Based on Toujou's profile, nothing stops Ainz from just nuking the guy if it really comes down to it. Even abilities like Power Absorption requires feats of actually being able to affect higher-tiered abilities than the user's own (or else it'll be considered as NLF). Toujou would actually need feats of stealing skills at the level of Ainz's tier. Also, Toujou's profile explicitly says that he steals Skills. Isn't Magic treated differently from skills in Overlord anyways?

 

[Apeironaxim]

yes, magic and skills are separate in Overlord

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

I mean even if he could steal all ainz magic ect, Im not sure I understand how he gets that done before ainz has reality slashed him/nuked him with 7b magic and timestop especially as his info analysis seems like it might fail.

Yes magic and skills are entierly seperate things within overlord.

 

[DeathNoodles]

@Apeironaxim

@The pen or the sword

Welp, then even with Verse Equalisation, Toujou can only steal Ainz's skills at best (and for any skills of Ainz's that are AP-based, Toujou wouldn't be able replicate them, especially to its full destructive potency unless he has showing of replicating skills with higher tier than his own) with magic being excluded unless shown otherwise based on Toujou's profile.

 

[FDrybob]

Also, even if he stole Ainz's Nuclear Blast or some other powerful spell, he wouldn't be able to use it to anywhere near Ainz's capabilities. The abilities of a caster heavily influences the potency of their spells. That's why Ainz's maximized and boosted Magic Arrow was able to deal demage to Shalltear despite being a 1st tier spell.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Ainz actually boosted it to 10th tier or something, but yes, Shalltear's magic resistance was based on the strength of the caster, even saying a weak caster's spells would get nulled even if they were 10th tier, but any of Ainz's spells above 1st tier would work against her

 

[DontTalkDT]

.
Ainz has Resistance to Resistance Negation in his profile. I don't see how breaking through usual resistances is going to get past Ainz's resistance to the said resistance-breaking.

It isn't resistance negation, but overcoming a resistance with a stronger version of said technique. Not that it matters, given that Karuna also has a skill which can give him information just by wishing to have it and his precognition that can tell him how things would go in advance.

in a combat scenario where he knows nothing I don't see why he would have it down.
Because he has deactivated it the majority of the time. By SBA characters have no prep time. They get basically teleported here from a random time and place in their life. He doesn't get to activate something he usually has turned off in everyday life in preparation for the battle.

That it is possible for an ability to be permanently turned on doesn't make it a passive. The fact that a character actually leaves it permanently turned on does. And that is exactly what Ainz doesn't do, because he can't without causing great turmoil.

Question though why cant ainz oneshot him with his 7b spells? Outside of death manip and memory/pain manip what saves toujou from timestop and reality slash? Ainz won't use one spell against an unkown opponent in the side novel against an opponent he observed for a bit he teleported in during time stopp triplicated maximized magic reality slash along with a bunch of other high tier spells and teleported out. Or against the ancient tree where he turned the thing into a massive christmas decoration with all his spells.

Yet more suggested starting moves.

Karuna is precognitive, has a danger sense, is a master in every fighting style, is lucky, can instantly cast multiple spells at once, can accelerate his thoughts and think multiple things at once. So nothing Ainz throws at him would catch him off guard. Any attack that doesn't destroy his brain will also be easily healed off, as his healing magic can straight up resurrect the dead.

Karuna can teleport himself to a different continent with a thought, so anything that doesn't blitz Karuna can easily be dodged. Karuna can also invert the target (not movement, target) of techniques directed at him, so that they target the user instead.

As I see it Ainz only winning move is not to play is to instant cast time stop into some 7-B attack spell that destroys Karuna's brain. Anything short of that is dodged or resisted. I doubt he is doing that particular move with such a high certainty that Karunas luck can't make him do something else.

DeathNoodles"] Even abilities like Power Absorption requires feats of actually being able to affect higher-tiered abilities than the user's own (or else it'll be considered as NLF). Toujou would actually need feats of stealing skills at the level of Ainz's tier. Also, Toujou's profile explicitly says that he steals Skills. Isn't Magic treated differently from skills in Overlord anyways? [/quote]
Eh, no. An ability can ignore stats exactly then if it doesn't interact with the opponents stats. That's why stuff like space cutting his hax. Karuna isn't decreasing Ainz magic energy or anything. He just takes away his ability to make use of it. Ainz stats are technically left as is.

Karuna would of course not be able to use the stolen abilities on the original level if his power is too low for that.

Whether magic and skills is treated differently in Overlord is irrelevant, since what is stolen is determined by 100 Cheat Skills standards as that is what the technique is based on. In 100 Cheat Skills spells aren't skills, but the ability to use magic and control magical power is a skill. So Ainz will become unable to make any use of all the magical power he has, despite the power not being decreased in the slightest.

Karuna could win in other ways as well. Power Stealing is just the most direct one.

 

[Apeironaxim]

btw, is it even worth it to continue arguing/debating right now?

since none of it is gonna be saved?

 

[DontTalkDT]

┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬» I'm fine with taking a break. Wanted to distance myself a bit from the wiki during the moving anyway. And then I'm going to do the massive Naraku downgrades I planned for ages now.