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Nice non-sequitur there buddy, you new to VS or something ? Holy Ground is specifically stated to be a Holy Art, which we know Homura doesn't have so your example falls flat on it's face, not like it made much sense to begin with but... Anyway, it's literally stated that Gabriel was just too strong to be affected, he didn't use anything fancy, he was just at a level where the effects of Daoloth's dimension did all of jack and shit. Homura is orders of magnitude stronger and, you know, the person who actually subdued Daoloth in the first place. 1+1, shouldn't be too hard, or so I thought.LazyHunter said:Late reply, but I need to adress these ridiculous claims in case anyone wants to cast the last vote for Tamura to win.
@ADandyMustache
And your proof of Homura being able to shrug off a Time Stop is? You don't automatically get the resistances or abilities of those weaker than you unless it's an explicit mechanic of the verse. Using the same reasoning, one could argue that since demons and angels beside Michael are that much weaker than full-power Homura he should get their immunity to conventional damage and the angelic Holy Ground.
Way to go, Gar.Gargoyle One said:LazyHunter just dropped a space-Timed mic into the nucleus of all infinite chaos.
They're not unfounded claims really. One character does a feat which is stated to be with pure power alone, no fancy tricks, no resistance as you yourself say. But you refuse to powerscale it to someone else who is explicitly stronger... because. Yeah, if that doesn't make any sense to you you're on the right track.LazyHunter said:@ADandyMustache
It was only to point out how ridiculous your claim was. Just as we know that Homura doesn't have Holy Ground or the demon immunity to non-magic attacks, you have zero evidence that Homura has a resistance to time-stops outside unfounded claims. And no, the novel explicitly says it's a result of his physical power, not a resistance.
It doesn't even matter anyway, because stronger characters don't get the resistances of weaker characters unless the setting explicitly works like that, and Ultimate Antihero doesn't.
So basically, you're saying he wasn't swallowed. You do'nt understand the basic implications behind your claims. He wasn't completely swallowed if his spear was preventing the hole from closing, basic common sense which you visibly lack. So yes, narration explicitly says he was swallowed, vanishing from her sight, baww around all you want that's a fact. Pro-tip ? A huge ass spear protruding from a vortex is not something you can't notice. So you have absolutely no leg to stand on.LazyHunter said:I was obviously talking about the moment where Gabriel stabs Sumika from the hole, so I don't know why you even bring up Gabriel killing her Shoggoths. I also didn't say Gabriel wasn't completely swallowed, stop putting words in my mouth. He extended his spear from the hole and stabbed Sumika before the hole could close and then used his arm to pry it open to escape.
His voice came out while his body was still twisting and being absorbed, so of course his voice still carried over to her. Congratulations, you don't understand basic literary devices. Here's how it goes: > Sumika hits him with Grim Bullet > Struggle ensues > He vanishes from her sight (at this point he had completely been swallowed > Narration says that this should have been the end of him, that no one should be able to come back from that > he comes back anyway and stabs her in a surprise attack There's absolutely nothing complicated here, you'd think.LazyHunter said:And yes, he would need the hole to be fully closed for the argument of shrugging the effects off to work, as we clearly see it needs to be closed so that the opponent is completely under Daoloth's effects and BFR, otherwise his voice from within wouldn't even carry as sound doesn't work in Daoloth's territory. As long as the portal is open escape it's possible. The narration even says that Gabriel was supposed to be dragged into Daoloth's territory but that it didn't happen.
You're contradicting yourself hard, don't you realize it ? You're simultaneously saying that raw power allows Gabriel to resist the effects of Daoloth and then claim it's a resistance that can't be powerscaled to others. Narration says he got out with power, Homura > him in power by orders of magnitude. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.LazyHunter said:Again, Gabriel escaped explicitly because of his pure, brute physical strength. And even if he hadn't, stronger characters don't get resistances from weaker characters unless the setting works like that.
Lmao, wrong: "Nowhere in this universe, the empty void where no space, no time, no concept, nothing existed at all. Gabriel had been dragged into the territory of Daoloth." THE TERRITORY OF DAOLOTH. English. Basic. Understand. It banishes them into his pocket dimension, so again, unless you're willing to claim Daoloth with all his described powers just happened to find this dimension as it is and made it his home, this is a power of his, which means Homura can summon him to do the exact same thing, dwi.LazyHunter said:So you don't even understand how Daoloth works. Daoloth didn't erase the concept of time nor did he even create a pocket dimensions. Daoloth's power is to break dimensional boundaries and use that to BFR an opponent to outside space-time, to the nothingness beyond the universe.
So you basically didn't read a word that I said ? Cool, lemme say it again then: His Spirit body is stated to be unable to produce Magic Power due to lack of a magic power vein. Which means when he is turned into a Wraith he is stuck with the power he has when his body died. Which means, if you've followed this far, that when he turned he was already weakened because he didn't have the time to replenish his reserves, and busting out of Michael's stomach was also stated to have taken a great deal of power from him. Ergo, all those things weakened him to the extent that he was "weak".LazyHunter said:His wraith body is explicitly said to be very weak and easily destroyed. He even needs to waste magic power to carry/move stuff. He summoned Eihort and teleported everyone as he was dying, not after as a wraith so trying to use that action is worthless. In fact, he says that he only carried over a bit of magic power with him as a wraith that he used up saving Shiori. So he only gets to do an attack or two before running out and entering the "can't even carry a single girl without suffering pain" state. An opponent who kills him at full power only needs to easily repeat the same thing with a very weakened version of him.
Ah yes, it's easy but it takes a year, flawless logic right there buddy. Quote on it requiring "ingredients" now. I know this doesn't exist so I'm gonna wait for your concession. From the mouth of the man himself, literally the only things needed are "knowledge of the structure and composition of that, it's possible to create body."LazyHunter said:Another thing you either didn't understand or you are twisting to support your argument. When the narration says Homura could have easily made another body not only does that not give you a timeframe (easily could mean that it would take him a week or a single day compared to a year), it's obviously refering to the living Homura, not wraith Homura who uses up his remaining magic power to lift objects and needs a second person to help him make a body. You also blatantly ignore how creating an artificial body requires prep time to gather the materials, and that outside help beyond summons is not allowed (even if it were in the standard scenario Homura would only have access to Vel or random people that he would need to convince to help him and teach them sorcery from start unlike with Elfiena, who at least knew the basics), or that you lack any proof Homura could create an artificial body comparable in strength to his original one.
Easy, no materials are actually needed and he's immune to Time-Stop. Anything else you want in addition to the butt-kicking I'm delivering right now ? Don't hesitate, got plenty in stock.LazyHunter said:So please, tell me how Homura or possibly Vel gather the materials necessary and make an artificial body while wasting his magic power with an enemy that can easily kill him and that can stop time to prevent him from fleeing.
The only thing that's on your side is ignorance and utter incapability of understanding basic stuff as I demonstrated and will happily continue to as long as you want.LazyHunter said:The evidence is clearly on my side. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. But let's go over the series:
There's no need for Time-Compression if you use something else. Other news at 7. You're incapable of following a conversation, it's impressive. I'm saying that when they use Time compression, for the people who can, then the chant is for all intents and purpose instantaneous. But obviously if Sumika can use something else to pin down or give herself the required normal time then it's unnecessary. I also laughted out loud at you trying your damndest to find every time it wasn't used, completely ignoring the context of those, to the point where you're even bringing up utter nonsense. But I'm hardly surprised, that's all you do anyway. Let's get to debunking this like the rest then~LazyHunter said:Volume 1:
- Sumika uses Grim Bullet against Chitori only after using Reverse Spell to cast a Spatial sorcery that makes Chitori unable to approach her during the chant. This was especifically to buy time for her chant. No time compression mentioned, and evidence debunks it.
Homura had just kicked Jambure's mouth and made his own attack implode in his mouth, the thing was pretty much dead. The only reason Homura summoned Ithaqua was to get rid of his body so that it would not crush the injured Magicians below. there was literally no need for anything speeding up the summoning here. See, that's the problem with making claims ignoring context, it's as brittle as a sandcastle. So, 1 use of Compressed chant.LazyHunter said:*Sumika uses Grim Bullet against Baphomet to destroy him and his attack. Chant is said to be incredibly fast (chant happens in a blink of an eye, summoning the binder prior to that didn't even reach an instant) and that Baphomet screwed up for being so confident he didn't react in time (Because it was confident, its reaction to everything was slow.). Possible time compression.
- Homura summons Ithaqua, no time compression mentioned, chant is mentioned to be a slow melody and everyone else present witnesses how each line of the chant made the sky progressively darker, so evidence against it.
Putting distance between her and Lilly is meaningless to begin with, her Gae Bolg can strike anything she wants within her field of vision and it's pretty much instant as well, of course she'd put some protection, especially since it worked once during her surprise attack through the guest house. 3 uses.LazyHunter said:Volume 2:
- Sumika tries to use Grim Bullet, but only after putting some distance between her and Lily and using defensive magic to prevent Lily's attack from disrupting the technique.
- Homura summons Y'golonac. I had forgotten about this chant, which mentions it lasts "a condensed instant".
- Homura summons Iod, chant is said to last an instant. Possible time compression.
He summoned Quachill Uttaus while the Church's army was at bay because they were waiting for him to leave, Michael himself was waiting for him. he had, again, absolutely no reason to hurry it up. Your examples are so bad it's saddening. She blinded them and went up so that she could align them with the the one on the ground and kill all of them in one shot in a way that they wouldn't realize. Sigh...LazyHunter said:Volume 3:
- Homura summons Quachil Uttaus. No time compression mentioned, wind is mentioned to make the pages of his grimoire flutter while he chants, so evidence against it.
- Sumika uses Dual Spell so that she can cast two Grim Bullets at the same time when faced against two enemies. But only after blinding both of them with Flashbang and flying hig up to get away from them. Narration also has them moving and charging her from two sides as she tries to chant, as they were confident one of them would finish her off before she could chant a second time. Also, narration especifically says she hadn't had time to chant before in the battle and that Grim Bullet cannot be used repeatedly because of the lengthy chant. No time compression mentioned and plenty of evidence against it.
Closest thing to actually decent evidence so far. that is, if you forget the fact that they had decided to go all out and stop cheap tricks, just as Homura didn't interrupt Michael while he was concentrating his Holy Ground around his blade, Michael didn't either. 3 uses with 1 questionable instance where it wasn't used for no reason.LazyHunter said:* Homura summons Cthulhu, no time compression mentioned, and each verse of the chant progressively affects the planet, so evidence against it.
4 uses with 1 questionable instance where it wasn't used for no reason.LazyHunter said:Volume 4:
- Sumika uses Grim Bullet against Raphael. Time compression is mentioned and used, it's explicitly not a property of the chant but Sumika using her magic to chant faster by extending her own time. So it only confirms Sumika can use some sort of time element magic, which is not a surprise given she's the second best sorcerer.
She needed an opening, and by that point she had been fighting almost non-stop for a long time. She didn't need to chant it fast, she wanted to wait until the surprise of her last clone being a Shoggoth hit Gabriel and aim for that moment. Moreover, it's possible all this plan could've went to shit if she had used more magic than she needed to, you know, in case he noticed ? No chant whatsoever was heard, only the last line that they always pronounce, funnily enough when only this line is used it's most of the time because of Time-Compression, so you very much have no basis here. Yog-Sothoth is, as far as we know, his strongest summon. Of course I wouldn't expect a weakened Homura acting through Sumika's body via contract to be able to shorten it. 4 uses 4 uses with 2 questionable instances where it wasn't used. See how quickly shit melts when you completely ignore context and hope the other side will not call you out on your bullshit ? Funny that.LazyHunter said:* Sumika asks the other sorcerers to hold Gabriel's attention while she tries to use Grim Bullet, and significant time passes as the good guys try to distract him while Sumika summons and loads two Grim Bullets, so evidence against time compression.
You have two instances of time being compressed/condensed (one of them explicitly being the result of a secondary sorcery and not a property of chants) and two where the chants last an instant that is possibly a result of the same type of time sorcery. All other occassions either don't mention it at all or explicitly depict time happening as normal and call out the weakness of having to use a long chant.
- Sumika uses Grim Bullet against Gabriel. No time compression mentioned, Sumika uses the Shoggoth to distract Gabriel while she chants and Gabriel manages to hear the last line of the chant, so evidence against it.
- Hastur is summoned by the civilians, no time compression mentioned or depicted.
- Sumika uses Grim Bullet against Michael. No time compression mentioned, it only happened because Shiori tried to create an opening of a few seconds.
- Sumika/Homura summon Yog-Sothoth. No time compression mentioned or depicted.
Starryknight200 said:I think I'm going to have to give this one to Homura