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Battle of Identity Crisis: Tamura Akemi vs Homura Kamishiro
- Thread starter Peter1129
- Start date
- Status
- 1,812
- 317
Late reply, but I need to adress these ridiculous claims in case anyone wants to cast the last vote for Tamura to win.
@ADandyMustache
Gabriel, who's an ant compared to Homura, shrugged off being sent into a dimension where time, space as concepts didn't even exist. Time-Stop isn't doing anything to Homura, like, really.
And your proof of Homura being able to shrug off a Time Stop is? You don't automatically get the resistances or abilities of those weaker than you unless it's an explicit mechanic of the verse. Using the same reasoning, one could argue that since demons and angels beside Michael are that much weaker than full-power Homura he should get their immunity to conventional damage and the angelic Holy Ground.
Besides, Gabriel didn't shrug off anything (if he was that unaffected by space-time Daoloth's bullet shouldn't even make the dimensional hole ion his flesh)
Wrung and wrung, like a thick rubber string forcefully being twisted before raising an unpleasant sound, the hole opened on his chest was sucking Gabriel's body like a vortex.
He just used his spear to stab Sumika as an anchor and used his strength to pry the portal open and escape before it could be closed. This was especifically attributed to his physical strength, no any kind of resistance.
Besides, unless you're willing to argue that Daoloth just one day stumbled upon a nice little pocket universe where no time/space or concepts existed at all and made it his home, it's pretty clear that he's the one responsible for the state of his dimension. Which means Homura himself could stop time if he wanted since Daoloth did something even better, especially when you think about the fact that Daoloth did it without even being the "time shenanigans dedicated" summon.
Proof of Homura being able to stop time or Daoloth being able to manipulate time at all, because the only thing it does is break dimensional boundaries to BFR people. As mentioned above, whether Daoloth or one of his summons could do it doesn't mean anything, as you don't get the abilities/resistances of characters weaker than you unless noted.
The reason Homura's spirit body was weak when he busted out of Michael is because he used his remaining power to shelter the Tokyo Life Sphere and it's 70~80 million inhabitants inside Eihort's maze. It's stated that creating himself a new body is a trivial matter for Homura in normal circumstances. Heck, the whole point of the end of his fight with Michael was to "die" and weaken himself as much as possible so that Michael wouldn't detect him searching for Shiori inside of his own damn body. Finally ? Even as a wraith he managed to literally bust out of Michael's stomach, which is probably what took the most energy out of him. It's stated that his Spiritual Body's weakness is that he cannot produce Magic Power, aka once he's turned into a Spirit Body he's stuck with whatever energy he had when his body was destroyed., which is utterly irrelevant in the context of a VS as he's just not going to try to do all the things he has done while in Spiritual Body in-canon.
He's especifically mentioned to be incredibly weak in this state and basically unable to fight alone, and he needed about one year of work to teach another person to actually make him a new artificial body (so your claim of him trivially making a new body for himself as a wraith is completely false), and this body is much weaker than his old one.
Chants have been repeatedly stated to be used in "compressed time", they're pretty much instant for all intents and purpose. It's not something that's going to matter at all unless there is a huge difference in speed, which isn't the case here obviously.
Are you referring to this sentence?
Inside a compressed time, Sumika was seething with red magic power while manipulating the sorcery that could be said as the origin of her nickname.
Because it's the only time this is even mentioned, and it doesn't fit with the rest of the verse where Sumika, the one chanting there, specifically uses tricks like Reverse Spell and Dual Spell and other spells to give herself time to chant. So no, a big chant is a glaring weakness in a speed equalized match. The novel also specifically says Sumika cannot use Grim Bullet rapidly due to the length of the chant.
Certainly <Grim Bullet> couldn't be fired rapidly due to the length of its chanting.
@ADandyMustache
Gabriel, who's an ant compared to Homura, shrugged off being sent into a dimension where time, space as concepts didn't even exist. Time-Stop isn't doing anything to Homura, like, really.
And your proof of Homura being able to shrug off a Time Stop is? You don't automatically get the resistances or abilities of those weaker than you unless it's an explicit mechanic of the verse. Using the same reasoning, one could argue that since demons and angels beside Michael are that much weaker than full-power Homura he should get their immunity to conventional damage and the angelic Holy Ground.
Besides, Gabriel didn't shrug off anything (if he was that unaffected by space-time Daoloth's bullet shouldn't even make the dimensional hole ion his flesh)
Wrung and wrung, like a thick rubber string forcefully being twisted before raising an unpleasant sound, the hole opened on his chest was sucking Gabriel's body like a vortex.
He just used his spear to stab Sumika as an anchor and used his strength to pry the portal open and escape before it could be closed. This was especifically attributed to his physical strength, no any kind of resistance.
Besides, unless you're willing to argue that Daoloth just one day stumbled upon a nice little pocket universe where no time/space or concepts existed at all and made it his home, it's pretty clear that he's the one responsible for the state of his dimension. Which means Homura himself could stop time if he wanted since Daoloth did something even better, especially when you think about the fact that Daoloth did it without even being the "time shenanigans dedicated" summon.
Proof of Homura being able to stop time or Daoloth being able to manipulate time at all, because the only thing it does is break dimensional boundaries to BFR people. As mentioned above, whether Daoloth or one of his summons could do it doesn't mean anything, as you don't get the abilities/resistances of characters weaker than you unless noted.
The reason Homura's spirit body was weak when he busted out of Michael is because he used his remaining power to shelter the Tokyo Life Sphere and it's 70~80 million inhabitants inside Eihort's maze. It's stated that creating himself a new body is a trivial matter for Homura in normal circumstances. Heck, the whole point of the end of his fight with Michael was to "die" and weaken himself as much as possible so that Michael wouldn't detect him searching for Shiori inside of his own damn body. Finally ? Even as a wraith he managed to literally bust out of Michael's stomach, which is probably what took the most energy out of him. It's stated that his Spiritual Body's weakness is that he cannot produce Magic Power, aka once he's turned into a Spirit Body he's stuck with whatever energy he had when his body was destroyed., which is utterly irrelevant in the context of a VS as he's just not going to try to do all the things he has done while in Spiritual Body in-canon.
He's especifically mentioned to be incredibly weak in this state and basically unable to fight alone, and he needed about one year of work to teach another person to actually make him a new artificial body (so your claim of him trivially making a new body for himself as a wraith is completely false), and this body is much weaker than his old one.
Chants have been repeatedly stated to be used in "compressed time", they're pretty much instant for all intents and purpose. It's not something that's going to matter at all unless there is a huge difference in speed, which isn't the case here obviously.
Are you referring to this sentence?
Inside a compressed time, Sumika was seething with red magic power while manipulating the sorcery that could be said as the origin of her nickname.
Because it's the only time this is even mentioned, and it doesn't fit with the rest of the verse where Sumika, the one chanting there, specifically uses tricks like Reverse Spell and Dual Spell and other spells to give herself time to chant. So no, a big chant is a glaring weakness in a speed equalized match. The novel also specifically says Sumika cannot use Grim Bullet rapidly due to the length of the chant.
Certainly <Grim Bullet> couldn't be fired rapidly due to the length of its chanting.
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This gonna be fun. Please do address my claims with blatantly half-baked knowledge, it's entertaining. In your future responses put some effort into not making a wall of text by the way, use quotes. I know this wiki is absolutely trash for extended conversations but do it nonetheless, that's the bare minimum. Lessgo
He just used his spear to stab Sumika as an anchor and used his strength to pry the portal open and escape before it could be closed. This was especifically attributed to his physical strength, no any kind of resistance.
Nice, thanks for displaying to everyone how little you actually know. That literally didn't happen. The first Sumika he stabbed was the real one, afterwards he went on a stabbing spree against her Shoggoth clones, he didn't have an anchor or anything because when he got hit by Grim Bullet he wasn't stabbing anything. That's my point you idiot, he didn't use any special Holy Art only Angels know or anything, just raw power. Homura is orders of magnitude above him so he can do exactly the same, better in fact. WHich makes sense you know since he subdued Daoloth himself some time in the past, can't quite do that if you can't even deal with the guy's most basic shit, can you ? Also, again, thanks for displaying your half-baked knowledge, but no, Gabriel had been completely swallowed: "Finally his figure vanished from in front of Sumika. Nowhere in this universe, the empty void where no space, no time, no concept, nothing existed at all. Gabriel had been dragged into the territory of Daoloth." He stabbed Sumika after opening the hole enough for the spear to pass, then he opened it more for his arm etc... It's even flat out stated that his figure had disappeared in front of Sumika. He was gone, then he came back almost immediately and stabbed her. Not like he'd need to be completely swallowed to suffer the effects anyway, he still shrugged them off and came back more pised and angry than anything.
Proof of Homura being able to stop time or Daoloth being able to manipulate time at all, because the only thing it does is break dimensional boundaries to BFR people. As mentioned above, whether Daoloth or one of his summons could do it doesn't mean anything, as you don't get the abilities/resistances of characters weaker than you unless noted.
I'm sorry, is simple logic too much to handle ? Daoloth doesn't need to manipulate Time, he did something better, he ERASED the concept of Time in his pocket dimension. Functionally this is even better than regular Time-Stop. Also, no, again, it doesn't manipulate dimensional boundaries. It's just stated that the boundaries of Space-Time have no meaning, but nice fanon you've got there, you got a Patreon to continue that stuff ? He gets the scaling from Gabriel as explained above, end of story.
He's especifically mentioned to be incredibly weak in this state and basically unable to fight alone, and he needed about one year of work to teach another person to actually make him a new artificial body (so your claim of him trivially making a new body for himself as a wraith is completely false), and this body is much weaker than his old one.
Good job missing everything I've said. Next time take a few seconds to try and understand the post you're replying to instead of frothing at the mouth and jumping on that reply button. Yes he was very weak, BECAUSE HE DID EVERYTHING I'VE MENTIONED. Jesus ****, again, it's stated that in his Wraith body he had no dragon vein, aka he cannot create Magic Power, so he's running on reserves, and he used those reserves to put the entirety of the Tokyo Life Sphere in Eihort's maze + bust out of Michael's stomach. You're acting like any of tht shit is going to happen in a VS, it's not. Let's see what the actual novel has to say on this matter: "If this had been done by Homura himself then something like <human body transmutation> would've been easy, but for Elfiena it was a sorcery with a relatively high difficulty." Oh snap, would you look at that, it's EASY for him under normal circumstances. Who woulda thunk ? i'm gonna pass on the fact you believe Elfiena struggling to learn the Sorcery means shit when we're specifically told and shown that fairies are piss weak people. Remember why they decided to come in the the Human realm ? Lmfao. They can't even use Sorceries higher than 3rd grade if you recall, of course it took her some time to learn, and even then she did a crappy job at it.
Are you referring to this sentence?
Because it's the only time this is even mentioned, and it doesn't fit with the rest of the verse where Sumika, the one chanting there, specifically uses tricks like Reverse Spell and Dual Spell and other spells to give herself time to chant. So no, a big chant is a glaring weakness in a speed equalized match. The novel also specifically says Sumika cannot use Grim Bullet rapidly due to the length of the chant.
Ah yes, the best one yet "It doesn't fit with the rest so it doesn't count !!1!". I don't care what your opinion is, that's what happens, deal with it. Also like how you completely forgot that she was facing 2 people about as strong as her, that she was injured like hell and was under a constant barrage of magics. But hey, why bother with context right ? Hurr
I impatiently await your next vomi- I mean reply.
Nice non-sequitur there buddy, you new to VS or something ? Holy Ground is specifically stated to be a Holy Art, which we know Homura doesn't have so your example falls flat on it's face, not like it made much sense to begin with but... Anyway, it's literally stated that Gabriel was just too strong to be affected, he didn't use anything fancy, he was just at a level where the effects of Daoloth's dimension did all of jack and shit. Homura is orders of magnitude stronger and, you know, the person who actually subdued Daoloth in the first place. 1+1, shouldn't be too hard, or so I thought.LazyHunter said:
He just used his spear to stab Sumika as an anchor and used his strength to pry the portal open and escape before it could be closed. This was especifically attributed to his physical strength, no any kind of resistance.
Nice, thanks for displaying to everyone how little you actually know. That literally didn't happen. The first Sumika he stabbed was the real one, afterwards he went on a stabbing spree against her Shoggoth clones, he didn't have an anchor or anything because when he got hit by Grim Bullet he wasn't stabbing anything. That's my point you idiot, he didn't use any special Holy Art only Angels know or anything, just raw power. Homura is orders of magnitude above him so he can do exactly the same, better in fact. WHich makes sense you know since he subdued Daoloth himself some time in the past, can't quite do that if you can't even deal with the guy's most basic shit, can you ? Also, again, thanks for displaying your half-baked knowledge, but no, Gabriel had been completely swallowed: "Finally his figure vanished from in front of Sumika. Nowhere in this universe, the empty void where no space, no time, no concept, nothing existed at all. Gabriel had been dragged into the territory of Daoloth." He stabbed Sumika after opening the hole enough for the spear to pass, then he opened it more for his arm etc... It's even flat out stated that his figure had disappeared in front of Sumika. He was gone, then he came back almost immediately and stabbed her. Not like he'd need to be completely swallowed to suffer the effects anyway, he still shrugged them off and came back more pised and angry than anything.
Proof of Homura being able to stop time or Daoloth being able to manipulate time at all, because the only thing it does is break dimensional boundaries to BFR people. As mentioned above, whether Daoloth or one of his summons could do it doesn't mean anything, as you don't get the abilities/resistances of characters weaker than you unless noted.
I'm sorry, is simple logic too much to handle ? Daoloth doesn't need to manipulate Time, he did something better, he ERASED the concept of Time in his pocket dimension. Functionally this is even better than regular Time-Stop. Also, no, again, it doesn't manipulate dimensional boundaries. It's just stated that the boundaries of Space-Time have no meaning, but nice fanon you've got there, you got a Patreon to continue that stuff ? He gets the scaling from Gabriel as explained above, end of story.
He's especifically mentioned to be incredibly weak in this state and basically unable to fight alone, and he needed about one year of work to teach another person to actually make him a new artificial body (so your claim of him trivially making a new body for himself as a wraith is completely false), and this body is much weaker than his old one.
Good job missing everything I've said. Next time take a few seconds to try and understand the post you're replying to instead of frothing at the mouth and jumping on that reply button. Yes he was very weak, BECAUSE HE DID EVERYTHING I'VE MENTIONED. Jesus ****, again, it's stated that in his Wraith body he had no dragon vein, aka he cannot create Magic Power, so he's running on reserves, and he used those reserves to put the entirety of the Tokyo Life Sphere in Eihort's maze + bust out of Michael's stomach. You're acting like any of tht shit is going to happen in a VS, it's not. Let's see what the actual novel has to say on this matter: "If this had been done by Homura himself then something like <human body transmutation> would've been easy, but for Elfiena it was a sorcery with a relatively high difficulty." Oh snap, would you look at that, it's EASY for him under normal circumstances. Who woulda thunk ? i'm gonna pass on the fact you believe Elfiena struggling to learn the Sorcery means shit when we're specifically told and shown that fairies are piss weak people. Remember why they decided to come in the the Human realm ? Lmfao. They can't even use Sorceries higher than 3rd grade if you recall, of course it took her some time to learn, and even then she did a crappy job at it.
Are you referring to this sentence?
Because it's the only time this is even mentioned, and it doesn't fit with the rest of the verse where Sumika, the one chanting there, specifically uses tricks like Reverse Spell and Dual Spell and other spells to give herself time to chant. So no, a big chant is a glaring weakness in a speed equalized match. The novel also specifically says Sumika cannot use Grim Bullet rapidly due to the length of the chant.
Ah yes, the best one yet "It doesn't fit with the rest so it doesn't count !!1!". I don't care what your opinion is, that's what happens, deal with it. Also like how you completely forgot that she was facing 2 people about as strong as her, that she was injured like hell and was under a constant barrage of magics. But hey, why bother with context right ? Hurr
I impatiently await your next vomi- I mean reply.
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But yeah, Kaltias is right. At least don't use that kind of tone. Also, Lazy is clearly not frothing at the mouth...
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His first line was basically "Lemme address those ridiculous claims". What I'm saying is exactly what happens in the story while he's intentionally ignoring entire chapters worth of context and story. The most blatant example being how he says Homura's Spirit state is weak when we're flat out told in-story that the reason for that is because he used up all his reserves to protect an entire nation and search for 1 girl stuck inside an enemy's stomach/whatever while simultaneously being incapable of replenishing his energy reserves due to said Spirit state. In a versus none of that is going to happen, he won't care about not getting spotted to perform his rescue mission, he's just going to create himself a new body and hop into it, which the narration flat out tells us he can do easily, but this guy persist in saying that's not how it works...
Such blatant dishonesty, or ignorance, irks me to no end, always has and always will. But sure, I'll try to be more careful with my language from now on.
Such blatant dishonesty, or ignorance, irks me to no end, always has and always will. But sure, I'll try to be more careful with my language from now on.
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@ADandyMustache
Nice non-sequitur there buddy, you new to VS or something ? Holy Ground is specifically stated to be a Holy Art, which we know Homura doesn't have so your example falls flat on it's face, not like it made much sense to begin with but... Anyway, it's literally stated that Gabriel was just too strong to be affected, he didn't use anything fancy, he was just at a level where the effects of Daoloth's dimension did all of jack and shit. Homura is orders of magnitude stronger and, you know, the person who actually subdued Daoloth in the first place. 1+1, shouldn't be too hard, or so I thought.
It was only to point out how ridiculous your claim was. Just as we know that Homura doesn't have Holy Ground or the demon immunity to non-magic attacks, you have zero evidence that Homura has a resistance to time-stops outside unfounded claims.
And no, the novel explicitly says it's a result of his physical power, not a resistance.
And then those two things wrenched open the cramped hole with brute force while,
"It means god is my strength……-!"
The hole was torn off to left and right.
The grey silver angel Gabriel possessed peerless physical strength entrusted to him along with that name from god, he returned back from the territory of Daoloth by sheer strength.
It doesn't even matter anyway, because stronger characters don't get the resistances of weaker characters unless the setting explicitly works like that, and Ultimate Antihero doesn't.
Nice, thanks for displaying to everyone how little you actually know. That literally didn't happen. The first Sumika he stabbed was the real one, afterwards he went on a stabbing spree against her Shoggoth clones, he didn't have an anchor or anything because when he got hit by Grim Bullet he wasn't stabbing anything. That's my point you idiot, he didn't use any special Holy Art only Angels know or anything, just raw power. Homura is orders of magnitude above him so he can do exactly the same, better in fact. WHich makes sense you know since he subdued Daoloth himself some time in the past, can't quite do that if you can't even deal with the guy's most basic shit, can you ? Also, again, thanks for displaying your half-baked knowledge, but no, Gabriel had been completely swallowed: "Finally his figure vanished from in front of Sumika. Nowhere in this universe, the empty void where no space, no time, no concept, nothing existed at all. Gabriel had been dragged into the territory of Daoloth." He stabbed Sumika after opening the hole enough for the spear to pass, then he opened it more for his arm etc... It's even flat out stated that his figure had disappeared in front of Sumika. He was gone, then he came back almost immediately and stabbed her. Not like he'd need to be completely swallowed to suffer the effects anyway, he still shrugged them off and came back more pised and angry than anything.
I was obviously talking about the moment where Gabriel stabs Sumika from the hole, so I don't know why you even bring up Gabriel killing her Shoggoths. I also didn't say Gabriel wasn't completely swallowed, stop putting words in my mouth. He extended his spear from the hole and stabbed Sumika before the hole could close and then used his arm to pry it open to escape.
And yes, he would need the hole to be fully closed for the argument of shrugging the effects off to work, as we clearly see it needs to be closed so that the opponent is completely under Daoloth's effects and BFR, otherwise his voice from within wouldn't even carry as sound doesn't work in Daoloth's territory. As long as the portal is open escape it's possible. The narration even says that Gabriel was supposed to be dragged into Daoloth's territory but that it didn't happen.
Gabriel was dragged into the territory of Daoloth.
That was, what supposed to happen.
But,
Again, Gabriel escaped explicitly because of his pure, brute physical strength. And even if he hadn't, stronger characters don't get resistances from weaker characters unless the setting works like that.
I'm sorry, is simple logic too much to handle ? Daoloth doesn't need to manipulate Time, he did something better, he ERASED the concept of Time in his pocket dimension. Functionally this is even better than regular Time-Stop. Also, no, again, it doesn't manipulate dimensional boundaries. It's just stated that the boundaries of Space-Time have no meaning, but nice fanon you've got there, you got a Patreon to continue that stuff ? He gets the scaling from Gabriel as explained above, end of story.
So you don't even understand how Daoloth works. Daoloth didn't erase the concept of time nor did he even create a pocket dimensions. Daoloth's power is to break dimensional boundaries and use that to BFR an opponent to outside space-time, to the nothingness beyond the universe.
Daoloth was a divinity that tore away the wall, that was to say the [boundary] of dimension.
In front of this god, all the boundary of space-time didn't have any meaning, the thing touched by Daoloth would wholly go to the abyss that was nowhere in this night, in this universe. Blown away to the outside of the phenomenon's boundary line.
At that place there was no light, no distance, no space, no time, nothing.
What existed there was only life frozen eternally.
[...]
Gabriel's chest was pierced by the strength of Great Old One that exiled Raphael to beyond space-time.
[...]
Nowhere in this universe, the empty space where no space, no time, no concept, nothing existed at all.
Gabriel was dragged into the territory of Daoloth.
Good job missing everything I've said. Next time take a few seconds to try and understand the post you're replying to instead of frothing at the mouth and jumping on that reply button. Yes he was very weak, BECAUSE HE DID EVERYTHING I'VE MENTIONED. Jesus ****, again, it's stated that in his Wraith body he had no dragon vein, aka he cannot create Magic Power, so he's running on reserves, and he used those reserves to put the entirety of the Tokyo Life Sphere in Eihort's maze + bust out of Michael's stomach. You're acting like any of tht shit is going to happen in a VS, it's not. Let's see what the actual novel has to say on this matter: "If this had been done by Homura himself then something like <human body transmutation> would've been easy, but for Elfiena it was a sorcery with a relatively high difficulty." Oh snap, would you look at that, it's EASY for him under normal circumstances. Who woulda thunk ? i'm gonna pass on the fact you believe Elfiena struggling to learn the Sorcery means shit when we're specifically told and shown that fairies are piss weak people. Remember why they decided to come in the the Human realm ? Lmfao. They can't even use Sorceries higher than 3rd grade if you recall, of course it took her some time to learn, and even then she did a crappy job at it.
His wraith body is explicitly said to be very weak and easily destroyed. He even needs to waste magic power to carry/move stuff. He summoned Eihort and teleported everyone as he was dying, not after as a wraith so trying to use that action is worthless.
"I see. I thought that he was doing something in his dying moment, so he was doing something like this."
In fact, he says that he only carried over a bit of magic power with him as a wraith that he used up saving Shiori.
"The current me is a wraith that will fly away if I'm getting blown. Even the little magic power I carried got completely used up when I took away Shiori. That's why honestly holding Shiori like this is really bone-breaking work here. ――Chikori, I'll leave her to you. Also Vel. Give Shiori something to wear. It's too much for her to keep looking like this."
So he only gets to do an attack or two before running out and entering the "can't even carry a single girl without suffering pain" state. An opponent who kills him at full power only needs to easily repeat the same thing with a very weakened version of him.
Another thing you either didn't understand or you are twisting to support your argument. When the narration says Homura could have easily made another body not only does that not give you a timeframe (easily could mean that it would take him a week or a single day compared to a year), it's obviously refering to the living Homura, not wraith Homura who uses up his remaining magic power to lift objects and needs a second person to help him make a body. You also blatantly ignore how creating an artificial body requires prep time to gather the materials, and that outside help beyond summons is not allowed (even if it were in the standard scenario Homura would only have access to Vel or random people that he would need to convince to help him and teach them sorcery from start unlike with Elfiena, who at least knew the basics), or that you lack any proof Homura could create an artificial body comparable in strength to his original one.
So please, tell me how Homura or possibly Vel gather the materials necessary and make an artificial body while wasting his magic power with an enemy that can easily kill him and that can stop time to prevent him from fleeing.
Ah yes, the best one yet "It doesn't fit with the rest so it doesn't count !!1!". I don't care what your opinion is, that's what happens, deal with it. Also like how you completely forgot that she was facing 2 people about as strong as her, that she was injured like hell and was under a constant barrage of magics. But hey, why bother with context right ? Hurr
The evidence is clearly on my side. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. But let's go over the series:
Volume 1:
Each time a single melody reverberated, the color of the sky turned deeper.
The ash-colored clouds that covered the sky turned muddy black, tinged with lightning.
Even the light of the sun that pierced through the cloudy sky and illuminated the ground was perfectly blocked, a darkness that was equal with the dark of night fell onto the land.
Anyone that was on the battlefield obtained a single premonition from the sudden change in the world.
―Something terrifying was going to happen.
Even something like <Demon King class> wouldn't compare, a terrifying existence was coming closer, that kind of premonition.
And then, among those people, there was only one person―a person that didn't merely have a premonition but a conviction.
It was, Sumika.
"-……!"
The girl hugged her shoulders from the chill that attacked her whole body, her breath was taken away.
Volume 2:
However… there was no need to search. The reason was――
{Listen from beyond o the most shining bright person in the abyss of heaven and earth}
Sumika was standing high in the sky as if she was looking down at the two people, she prepared her gun without even hiding the fierce crimson magic power light.
(<Grim Bullet>……-!)
Aleph guessed that Sumika was trying to use her sure-kill technique from that surging tremendous magic power.
Because until now she had to protect the city, there wasn't even time to chant, but just now that shackle had been gone. There was no more need to hesitate for Sumika.
[...]
(Certainly <Grim Bullet> can't be evaded or blocked or anything once it had been invoked, it's a powerful sorcery that could even penetrate <Holy Ground>, but… in exchange you got to chant it!)
In other words, it couldn't be rapid-fired.
[...]
Based on how the <Grim Bullet> couldn't be fired rapidly, the power of Evil God wouldn't come to Bet's side.
[...]
Certainly <Grim Bullet> couldn't be fired rapidly due to the length of its chanting.
But if it was used by the skill of Sumika, it was possible to fire both at the same time.
The sea surged, the ground broke, underground water and magma spurted out from everywhere, that situation was, yes, exactly like the primeval earth.
Volume 4:
She took out a binder from subspace.
Sumika tore off several loose-leaves from the paper bundle stored in it.
That was the copy regarding <The Outer GODS> recorded in <The Last Revelation of Gla'akiÒâ╗Ninth Volume>.
With those pieces of paper in hand, <Grim Bullet> Hoshikawa Sumika closed her eyes and spoked the words that connected her to the outer space.
Listen from the outer space o the person that judge the boundary of phenomeno
The seething stars shining brilliantly in blasphemy announcing the time of fate to thy
The god of ancient Atlantis o the person who bring about the holy light
Raise the dark curtain thy become light and swoop down right here
Dark and sky dream and reality not separated by the border of dark and light in order to ruin the crow of the universe
Along with those words, the pieces of paper in Sumika's hand were wrapped in flame and their shape transformed.
From paper――into a single [gray bullet].
It was the <Grim Bullet> where the power of <The Outer GODS> Daoloth resided.
Next if she loaded it into her revolver and shot it, the victory and defeat would be decided.
Even for an <Archangel>, he would be helpless in front of the power of authentic <god>.
But,
"Don't look down on me you fox bitchhhhhHHHH――――――――!!!!"
"―!?"
The moment she was going to decided the battle with <Grim Bullet>.
The <Archangel> Raphael interrupted into the thinly extending instant that Sumika lengthened using sorcery.
Gabriel heard that spell from behind him.
When he turned around in panic, Sumika whose shoulder had a hole gouged there with blood trickling was entering the shooting posture for <Grim Bullet>.
Yes. After the girl got pierced at the very first turn, she transformed into <Shogoth> and took Gabriel's back.
Gabriel also noticed that trick now, but the time was already too――
That was a few seconds that worth all gold in the world, the only chance of winning for mankind. At there――
{Now!}
"Rage! <God of Raging Storm> Ithaqua!"
@Burning Full Fingers
Yeah, Sumika is awesome. There's a reason the best volumes of the series are 3 and 4 when Homura isn't around.
Nice non-sequitur there buddy, you new to VS or something ? Holy Ground is specifically stated to be a Holy Art, which we know Homura doesn't have so your example falls flat on it's face, not like it made much sense to begin with but... Anyway, it's literally stated that Gabriel was just too strong to be affected, he didn't use anything fancy, he was just at a level where the effects of Daoloth's dimension did all of jack and shit. Homura is orders of magnitude stronger and, you know, the person who actually subdued Daoloth in the first place. 1+1, shouldn't be too hard, or so I thought.
It was only to point out how ridiculous your claim was. Just as we know that Homura doesn't have Holy Ground or the demon immunity to non-magic attacks, you have zero evidence that Homura has a resistance to time-stops outside unfounded claims.
And no, the novel explicitly says it's a result of his physical power, not a resistance.
And then those two things wrenched open the cramped hole with brute force while,
"It means god is my strength……-!"
The hole was torn off to left and right.
The grey silver angel Gabriel possessed peerless physical strength entrusted to him along with that name from god, he returned back from the territory of Daoloth by sheer strength.
It doesn't even matter anyway, because stronger characters don't get the resistances of weaker characters unless the setting explicitly works like that, and Ultimate Antihero doesn't.
Nice, thanks for displaying to everyone how little you actually know. That literally didn't happen. The first Sumika he stabbed was the real one, afterwards he went on a stabbing spree against her Shoggoth clones, he didn't have an anchor or anything because when he got hit by Grim Bullet he wasn't stabbing anything. That's my point you idiot, he didn't use any special Holy Art only Angels know or anything, just raw power. Homura is orders of magnitude above him so he can do exactly the same, better in fact. WHich makes sense you know since he subdued Daoloth himself some time in the past, can't quite do that if you can't even deal with the guy's most basic shit, can you ? Also, again, thanks for displaying your half-baked knowledge, but no, Gabriel had been completely swallowed: "Finally his figure vanished from in front of Sumika. Nowhere in this universe, the empty void where no space, no time, no concept, nothing existed at all. Gabriel had been dragged into the territory of Daoloth." He stabbed Sumika after opening the hole enough for the spear to pass, then he opened it more for his arm etc... It's even flat out stated that his figure had disappeared in front of Sumika. He was gone, then he came back almost immediately and stabbed her. Not like he'd need to be completely swallowed to suffer the effects anyway, he still shrugged them off and came back more pised and angry than anything.
I was obviously talking about the moment where Gabriel stabs Sumika from the hole, so I don't know why you even bring up Gabriel killing her Shoggoths. I also didn't say Gabriel wasn't completely swallowed, stop putting words in my mouth. He extended his spear from the hole and stabbed Sumika before the hole could close and then used his arm to pry it open to escape.
And yes, he would need the hole to be fully closed for the argument of shrugging the effects off to work, as we clearly see it needs to be closed so that the opponent is completely under Daoloth's effects and BFR, otherwise his voice from within wouldn't even carry as sound doesn't work in Daoloth's territory. As long as the portal is open escape it's possible. The narration even says that Gabriel was supposed to be dragged into Daoloth's territory but that it didn't happen.
Gabriel was dragged into the territory of Daoloth.
That was, what supposed to happen.
But,
Again, Gabriel escaped explicitly because of his pure, brute physical strength. And even if he hadn't, stronger characters don't get resistances from weaker characters unless the setting works like that.
I'm sorry, is simple logic too much to handle ? Daoloth doesn't need to manipulate Time, he did something better, he ERASED the concept of Time in his pocket dimension. Functionally this is even better than regular Time-Stop. Also, no, again, it doesn't manipulate dimensional boundaries. It's just stated that the boundaries of Space-Time have no meaning, but nice fanon you've got there, you got a Patreon to continue that stuff ? He gets the scaling from Gabriel as explained above, end of story.
So you don't even understand how Daoloth works. Daoloth didn't erase the concept of time nor did he even create a pocket dimensions. Daoloth's power is to break dimensional boundaries and use that to BFR an opponent to outside space-time, to the nothingness beyond the universe.
Daoloth was a divinity that tore away the wall, that was to say the [boundary] of dimension.
In front of this god, all the boundary of space-time didn't have any meaning, the thing touched by Daoloth would wholly go to the abyss that was nowhere in this night, in this universe. Blown away to the outside of the phenomenon's boundary line.
At that place there was no light, no distance, no space, no time, nothing.
What existed there was only life frozen eternally.
[...]
Gabriel's chest was pierced by the strength of Great Old One that exiled Raphael to beyond space-time.
[...]
Nowhere in this universe, the empty space where no space, no time, no concept, nothing existed at all.
Gabriel was dragged into the territory of Daoloth.
Good job missing everything I've said. Next time take a few seconds to try and understand the post you're replying to instead of frothing at the mouth and jumping on that reply button. Yes he was very weak, BECAUSE HE DID EVERYTHING I'VE MENTIONED. Jesus ****, again, it's stated that in his Wraith body he had no dragon vein, aka he cannot create Magic Power, so he's running on reserves, and he used those reserves to put the entirety of the Tokyo Life Sphere in Eihort's maze + bust out of Michael's stomach. You're acting like any of tht shit is going to happen in a VS, it's not. Let's see what the actual novel has to say on this matter: "If this had been done by Homura himself then something like <human body transmutation> would've been easy, but for Elfiena it was a sorcery with a relatively high difficulty." Oh snap, would you look at that, it's EASY for him under normal circumstances. Who woulda thunk ? i'm gonna pass on the fact you believe Elfiena struggling to learn the Sorcery means shit when we're specifically told and shown that fairies are piss weak people. Remember why they decided to come in the the Human realm ? Lmfao. They can't even use Sorceries higher than 3rd grade if you recall, of course it took her some time to learn, and even then she did a crappy job at it.
His wraith body is explicitly said to be very weak and easily destroyed. He even needs to waste magic power to carry/move stuff. He summoned Eihort and teleported everyone as he was dying, not after as a wraith so trying to use that action is worthless.
"I see. I thought that he was doing something in his dying moment, so he was doing something like this."
In fact, he says that he only carried over a bit of magic power with him as a wraith that he used up saving Shiori.
"The current me is a wraith that will fly away if I'm getting blown. Even the little magic power I carried got completely used up when I took away Shiori. That's why honestly holding Shiori like this is really bone-breaking work here. ――Chikori, I'll leave her to you. Also Vel. Give Shiori something to wear. It's too much for her to keep looking like this."
So he only gets to do an attack or two before running out and entering the "can't even carry a single girl without suffering pain" state. An opponent who kills him at full power only needs to easily repeat the same thing with a very weakened version of him.
Another thing you either didn't understand or you are twisting to support your argument. When the narration says Homura could have easily made another body not only does that not give you a timeframe (easily could mean that it would take him a week or a single day compared to a year), it's obviously refering to the living Homura, not wraith Homura who uses up his remaining magic power to lift objects and needs a second person to help him make a body. You also blatantly ignore how creating an artificial body requires prep time to gather the materials, and that outside help beyond summons is not allowed (even if it were in the standard scenario Homura would only have access to Vel or random people that he would need to convince to help him and teach them sorcery from start unlike with Elfiena, who at least knew the basics), or that you lack any proof Homura could create an artificial body comparable in strength to his original one.
So please, tell me how Homura or possibly Vel gather the materials necessary and make an artificial body while wasting his magic power with an enemy that can easily kill him and that can stop time to prevent him from fleeing.
Ah yes, the best one yet "It doesn't fit with the rest so it doesn't count !!1!". I don't care what your opinion is, that's what happens, deal with it. Also like how you completely forgot that she was facing 2 people about as strong as her, that she was injured like hell and was under a constant barrage of magics. But hey, why bother with context right ? Hurr
The evidence is clearly on my side. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. But let's go over the series:
Volume 1:
- Sumika uses Grim Bullet against Chitori only after using Reverse Spell to cast a Spatial sorcery that makes Chitori unable to approach her during the chant. This was especifically to buy time for her chant. No time compression mentioned, and evidence debunks it.
- Sumika uses Grim Bullet against Baphomet to destroy him and his attack. Chant is said to be incredibly fast (chant happens in a blink of an eye, summoning the binder prior to that didn't even reach an instant) and that Baphomet screwed up for being so confident he didn't react in time (Because it was confident, its reaction to everything was slow.). Possible time compression.
- Homura summons Ithaqua, no time compression mentioned, chant is mentioned to be a slow melody and everyone else present witnesses how each line of the chant made the sky progressively darker, so evidence against it.
Each time a single melody reverberated, the color of the sky turned deeper.
The ash-colored clouds that covered the sky turned muddy black, tinged with lightning.
Even the light of the sun that pierced through the cloudy sky and illuminated the ground was perfectly blocked, a darkness that was equal with the dark of night fell onto the land.
Anyone that was on the battlefield obtained a single premonition from the sudden change in the world.
―Something terrifying was going to happen.
Even something like <Demon King class> wouldn't compare, a terrifying existence was coming closer, that kind of premonition.
And then, among those people, there was only one person―a person that didn't merely have a premonition but a conviction.
It was, Sumika.
"-……!"
The girl hugged her shoulders from the chill that attacked her whole body, her breath was taken away.
Volume 2:
- Sumika tries to use Grim Bullet, but only after putting some distance between her and Lily and using defensive magic to prevent Lily's attack from disrupting the technique.
- Homura summons Y'golonac. I had forgotten about this chant, which mentions it lasts "a condensed instant".
- Homura summons Iod, chant is said to last an instant. Possible time compression.
- Homura summons Quachil Uttaus. No time compression mentioned, wind is mentioned to make the pages of his grimoire flutter while he chants, so evidence against it.
- Sumika uses Dual Spell so that she can cast two Grim Bullets at the same time when faced against two enemies. But only after blinding both of them with Flashbang and flying hig up to get away from them. Narration also has them moving and charging her from two sides as she tries to chant, as they were confident one of them would finish her off before she could chant a second time. Also, narration especifically says she hadn't had time to chant before in the battle and that Grim Bullet cannot be used repeatedly because of the lengthy chant. No time compression mentioned and plenty of evidence against it.
However… there was no need to search. The reason was――
{Listen from beyond o the most shining bright person in the abyss of heaven and earth}
Sumika was standing high in the sky as if she was looking down at the two people, she prepared her gun without even hiding the fierce crimson magic power light.
(<Grim Bullet>……-!)
Aleph guessed that Sumika was trying to use her sure-kill technique from that surging tremendous magic power.
Because until now she had to protect the city, there wasn't even time to chant, but just now that shackle had been gone. There was no more need to hesitate for Sumika.
[...]
(Certainly <Grim Bullet> can't be evaded or blocked or anything once it had been invoked, it's a powerful sorcery that could even penetrate <Holy Ground>, but… in exchange you got to chant it!)
In other words, it couldn't be rapid-fired.
[...]
Based on how the <Grim Bullet> couldn't be fired rapidly, the power of Evil God wouldn't come to Bet's side.
[...]
Certainly <Grim Bullet> couldn't be fired rapidly due to the length of its chanting.
But if it was used by the skill of Sumika, it was possible to fire both at the same time.
- Homura summons Cthulhu, no time compression mentioned, and each verse of the chant progressively affects the planet, so evidence against it.
The sea surged, the ground broke, underground water and magma spurted out from everywhere, that situation was, yes, exactly like the primeval earth.
Volume 4:
- Sumika uses Grim Bullet against Raphael. Time compression is mentioned and used, it's explicitly not a property of the chant but Sumika using her magic to chant faster by extending her own time. So it only confirms Sumika can use some sort of time element magic, which is not a surprise given she's the second best sorcerer.
She took out a binder from subspace.
Sumika tore off several loose-leaves from the paper bundle stored in it.
That was the copy regarding <The Outer GODS> recorded in <The Last Revelation of Gla'akiÒâ╗Ninth Volume>.
With those pieces of paper in hand, <Grim Bullet> Hoshikawa Sumika closed her eyes and spoked the words that connected her to the outer space.
Listen from the outer space o the person that judge the boundary of phenomeno
The seething stars shining brilliantly in blasphemy announcing the time of fate to thy
The god of ancient Atlantis o the person who bring about the holy light
Raise the dark curtain thy become light and swoop down right here
Dark and sky dream and reality not separated by the border of dark and light in order to ruin the crow of the universe
Along with those words, the pieces of paper in Sumika's hand were wrapped in flame and their shape transformed.
From paper――into a single [gray bullet].
It was the <Grim Bullet> where the power of <The Outer GODS> Daoloth resided.
Next if she loaded it into her revolver and shot it, the victory and defeat would be decided.
Even for an <Archangel>, he would be helpless in front of the power of authentic <god>.
But,
"Don't look down on me you fox bitchhhhhHHHH――――――――!!!!"
"―!?"
The moment she was going to decided the battle with <Grim Bullet>.
The <Archangel> Raphael interrupted into the thinly extending instant that Sumika lengthened using sorcery.
- Sumika asks the other sorcerers to hold Gabriel's attention while she tries to use Grim Bullet, and significant time passes as the good guys try to distract him while Sumika summons and loads two Grim Bullets, so evidence against time compression.
- Sumika uses Grim Bullet against Gabriel. No time compression mentioned, Sumika uses the Shoggoth to distract Gabriel while she chants and Gabriel manages to hear the last line of the chant, so evidence against it.
Gabriel heard that spell from behind him.
When he turned around in panic, Sumika whose shoulder had a hole gouged there with blood trickling was entering the shooting posture for <Grim Bullet>.
Yes. After the girl got pierced at the very first turn, she transformed into <Shogoth> and took Gabriel's back.
Gabriel also noticed that trick now, but the time was already too――
- Hastur is summoned by the civilians, no time compression mentioned or depicted.
- Sumika uses Grim Bullet against Michael. No time compression mentioned, it only happened because Shiori tried to create an opening of a few seconds.
That was a few seconds that worth all gold in the world, the only chance of winning for mankind. At there――
{Now!}
"Rage! <God of Raging Storm> Ithaqua!"
- Sumika/Homura summon Yog-Sothoth. No time compression mentioned or depicted.
@Burning Full Fingers
Yeah, Sumika is awesome. There's a reason the best volumes of the series are 3 and 4 when Homura isn't around.
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LazyHunter just dropped a space-Timed mic into the nucleus of all infinite chaos.
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Way to go, Gar.Gargoyle One said:
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I took inspiration from Matt
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They're not unfounded claims really. One character does a feat which is stated to be with pure power alone, no fancy tricks, no resistance as you yourself say. But you refuse to powerscale it to someone else who is explicitly stronger... because. Yeah, if that doesn't make any sense to you you're on the right track.LazyHunter said:
So basically, you're saying he wasn't swallowed. You do'nt understand the basic implications behind your claims. He wasn't completely swallowed if his spear was preventing the hole from closing, basic common sense which you visibly lack. So yes, narration explicitly says he was swallowed, vanishing from her sight, baww around all you want that's a fact. Pro-tip ? A huge ass spear protruding from a vortex is not something you can't notice. So you have absolutely no leg to stand on.LazyHunter said:
His voice came out while his body was still twisting and being absorbed, so of course his voice still carried over to her. Congratulations, you don't understand basic literary devices. Here's how it goes: > Sumika hits him with Grim Bullet > Struggle ensues > He vanishes from her sight (at this point he had completely been swallowed > Narration says that this should have been the end of him, that no one should be able to come back from that > he comes back anyway and stabs her in a surprise attack There's absolutely nothing complicated here, you'd think.LazyHunter said:
You're contradicting yourself hard, don't you realize it ? You're simultaneously saying that raw power allows Gabriel to resist the effects of Daoloth and then claim it's a resistance that can't be powerscaled to others. Narration says he got out with power, Homura > him in power by orders of magnitude. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.LazyHunter said:
Lmao, wrong: "Nowhere in this universe, the empty void where no space, no time, no concept, nothing existed at all. Gabriel had been dragged into the territory of Daoloth." THE TERRITORY OF DAOLOTH. English. Basic. Understand. It banishes them into his pocket dimension, so again, unless you're willing to claim Daoloth with all his described powers just happened to find this dimension as it is and made it his home, this is a power of his, which means Homura can summon him to do the exact same thing, dwi.LazyHunter said:
So you basically didn't read a word that I said ? Cool, lemme say it again then: His Spirit body is stated to be unable to produce Magic Power due to lack of a magic power vein. Which means when he is turned into a Wraith he is stuck with the power he has when his body died. Which means, if you've followed this far, that when he turned he was already weakened because he didn't have the time to replenish his reserves, and busting out of Michael's stomach was also stated to have taken a great deal of power from him. Ergo, all those things weakened him to the extent that he was "weak".LazyHunter said:
Ah yes, it's easy but it takes a year, flawless logic right there buddy. Quote on it requiring "ingredients" now. I know this doesn't exist so I'm gonna wait for your concession. From the mouth of the man himself, literally the only things needed are "knowledge of the structure and composition of that, it's possible to create body."LazyHunter said:
Easy, no materials are actually needed and he's immune to Time-Stop. Anything else you want in addition to the butt-kicking I'm delivering right now ? Don't hesitate, got plenty in stock.LazyHunter said:
The only thing that's on your side is ignorance and utter incapability of understanding basic stuff as I demonstrated and will happily continue to as long as you want.LazyHunter said:
There's no need for Time-Compression if you use something else. Other news at 7. You're incapable of following a conversation, it's impressive. I'm saying that when they use Time compression, for the people who can, then the chant is for all intents and purpose instantaneous. But obviously if Sumika can use something else to pin down or give herself the required normal time then it's unnecessary. I also laughted out loud at you trying your damndest to find every time it wasn't used, completely ignoring the context of those, to the point where you're even bringing up utter nonsense. But I'm hardly surprised, that's all you do anyway. Let's get to debunking this like the rest then~LazyHunter said:
Homura had just kicked Jambure's mouth and made his own attack implode in his mouth, the thing was pretty much dead. The only reason Homura summoned Ithaqua was to get rid of his body so that it would not crush the injured Magicians below. there was literally no need for anything speeding up the summoning here. See, that's the problem with making claims ignoring context, it's as brittle as a sandcastle. So, 1 use of Compressed chant.LazyHunter said:
Putting distance between her and Lilly is meaningless to begin with, her Gae Bolg can strike anything she wants within her field of vision and it's pretty much instant as well, of course she'd put some protection, especially since it worked once during her surprise attack through the guest house. 3 uses.LazyHunter said:
He summoned Quachill Uttaus while the Church's army was at bay because they were waiting for him to leave, Michael himself was waiting for him. he had, again, absolutely no reason to hurry it up. Your examples are so bad it's saddening. She blinded them and went up so that she could align them with the the one on the ground and kill all of them in one shot in a way that they wouldn't realize. Sigh...LazyHunter said:
Closest thing to actually decent evidence so far. that is, if you forget the fact that they had decided to go all out and stop cheap tricks, just as Homura didn't interrupt Michael while he was concentrating his Holy Ground around his blade, Michael didn't either. 3 uses with 1 questionable instance where it wasn't used for no reason.LazyHunter said:
4 uses with 1 questionable instance where it wasn't used for no reason.LazyHunter said:
She needed an opening, and by that point she had been fighting almost non-stop for a long time. She didn't need to chant it fast, she wanted to wait until the surprise of her last clone being a Shoggoth hit Gabriel and aim for that moment. Moreover, it's possible all this plan could've went to shit if she had used more magic than she needed to, you know, in case he noticed ? No chant whatsoever was heard, only the last line that they always pronounce, funnily enough when only this line is used it's most of the time because of Time-Compression, so you very much have no basis here. Yog-Sothoth is, as far as we know, his strongest summon. Of course I wouldn't expect a weakened Homura acting through Sumika's body via contract to be able to shorten it. 4 uses 4 uses with 2 questionable instances where it wasn't used. See how quickly shit melts when you completely ignore context and hope the other side will not call you out on your bullshit ? Funny that.LazyHunter said:
I will, again, eagerly await for the rest of your nonsense.
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@ADandyMustache
They're not unfounded claims really. One character does a feat which is stated to be with pure power alone, no fancy tricks, no resistance as you yourself say. But you refuse to powerscale it to someone else who is explicitly stronger... because. Yeah, if that doesn't make any sense to you you're on the right track.
They're unfounded. Gabriel didn't shrug off anything, he just opened the hole before it could fully close due to his brute physical strength (not necessarily equal to raw power, you can have a magician X with more raw power than character Y despite being physically inferior). This is not a resistance feat, he's not resisting a time-stop or resisting time manipulation. And even if he had resistance to time manipulation it wouldn't scale to Homura, as resistances don't scale to stronger characters unless the mechanics of the verse work like that, and they don't in this case, as I've explained multiple times.
So basically, you're saying he wasn't swallowed. You do'nt understand the basic implications behind your claims. He wasn't completely swallowed if his spear was preventing the hole from closing, basic common sense which you visibly lack. So yes, narration explicitly says he was swallowed, vanishing from her sight, baww around all you want that's a fact. Pro-tip ? A huge ass spear protruding from a vortex is not something you can't notice. So you have absolutely no leg to stand on.
No, I'm not saying that, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that the hole never fully closed and sealed Gabriel in Daoloth's territory, he had time to extend his spear before that and used that to keep the hole open and force himself back through the hole.
His voice came out while his body was still twisting and being absorbed, so of course his voice still carried over to her. Congratulations, you don't understand basic literary devices. Here's how it goes:
> Sumika hits him with Grim Bullet > Struggle ensues > He vanishes from her sight (at this point he had completely been swallowed > Narration says that this should have been the end of him, that no one should be able to come back from that > he comes back anyway and stabs her in a surprise attack There's absolutely nothing complicated here, you'd think.
No, he talks from the hole and stabs her after the hole sucks him up but before it can be closed, so he was never fully exiled as he had the portal connecting him to the universe and its space-time.
Finally his figure vanished from in front of Sumika.
Nowhere in this universe, the empty space where no space, no time, no concept, nothing existed at all.
Gabriel was dragged into the territory of Daoloth.
That was, what supposed to happen.
But,
――Do you know the meaning of the name Gabriel? ――
"Ka, -……!?"
Right after such question shook the atmosphere, Sumika felt the sensation of her stomach pierced by sharp impact.
You're contradicting yourself hard, don't you realize it ? You're simultaneously saying that raw power allows Gabriel to resist the effects of Daoloth and then claim it's a resistance that can't be powerscaled to others. Narration says he got out with power, Homura > him in power by orders of magnitude. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.
I'm not contradicting myself, you simply can't understand the simple fact that Gabriel didn't resist or shrug off anything, he only used brute physical strength (not necessarily equal to raw power) to keep the portal from closing. This is not a resistance feat.
Lmao, wrong:
"Nowhere in this universe, the empty void where no space, no time, no concept, nothing existed at all. Gabriel had been dragged into the territory of Daoloth." THE TERRITORY OF DAOLOTH. English. Basic. Understand.
It banishes them into his pocket dimension, so again, unless you're willing to claim Daoloth with all his described powers just happened to find this dimension as it is and made it his home, this is a power of his, which means Homura can summon him to do the exact same thing, dwi.
No. As I've already explained and proved, it's not a pocket dimension not something Daoloth created. It's the nothingness outside the universe and its space-time, so your argument here doesn't make any sense.
So you basically didn't read a word that I said ? Cool, lemme say it again then:
His Spirit body is stated to be unable to produce Magic Power due to lack of a magic power vein. Which means when he is turned into a Wraith he is stuck with the power he has when his body died. Which means, if you've followed this far, that when he turned he was already weakened because he didn't have the time to replenish his reserves, and busting out of Michael's stomach was also stated to have taken a great deal of power from him.
Ergo, all those things weakened him to the extent that he was "weak".
You're the one that didn't read a word of what I said. The "summoned Eihort and teleported the people in Tokyo" that you keep repeating he did as a wraith is not something done as a wraith, but something that he did just before he fully died when he still had access to his power. It has no relation to his powers as a wraith, which are explicitly incredibly diminished.
There's no proof of this claim "Which means when he is turned into a Wraith he is stuck with the power he has when his body died", because as I've already mentionedhe said he could only carry over a little of his power.
This claim "busting out of Michael's stomach was also stated to have taken a great deal of power from him" is false, he explicitly says it used up the small reserve of magic power he had as a wraith, not that it used a lot of magic power:
Even the little magic power I carried got completely used up when I took away Shiori.
Ah yes, it's easy but it takes a year, flawless logic right there buddy.
You're not even pretending to read my arguments anymore, you're just attacking a strawman at this point. Homura being able to easily make an artificial body is relative compared to Elfenia who needed a year. It doesn't necessarily mean it's instant.
Quote on it requiring "ingredients" now. I know this doesn't exist so I'm gonna wait for your concession. From the mouth of the man himself, literally the only things needed are "knowledge of the structure and composition of that, it's possible to create body."
Given the sometimes poor translation of the novels, I read that sentence as him saying you need the knowledge of the structure of the human body and the mattter that makes it up, similar to FMA's take on human transmutation. I'll agree to disagree on this, even if it doesn't resolve the issue of him probably needing another person to make the body.
Easy, no materials are actually needed and he's immune to Time-Stop.
Even if materials aren't needed, he's not immune to time-stop, we have no indication of how much time he needs to make one and you havent' explained how he gets away with doing so in front of an enemy capable of killing him at full power. This not taking into account that the new body is prbably not going to be as strong as his original one.
There's no need for Time-Compression if you use something else. Other news at 7.
Thank you for conceding chants aren't time-compressed, as this scene alone already debunks your entire argument.
Homura had just kicked Jambure's mouth and made his own attack implode in his mouth, the thing was pretty much dead. The only reason Homura summoned Ithaqua was to get rid of his body so that it would not crush the injured Magicians below. there was literally no need for anything speeding up the summoning here.
See, that's the problem with making claims ignoring context, it's as brittle as a sandcastle. So, 1 use of Compressed chant.
No, 1 possible use of a secondary sorcery to speed a chant and another where it's clearly not.
Putting distance between her and Lilly is meaningless to begin with, her Gae Bolg can strike anything she wants within her field of vision and it's pretty much instant as well, of course she'd put some protection, especially since it worked once during her surprise attack through the guest house.
No, she can do that with one version of the technique, the other one is a scarlet flash that travels through air can can clearly be intercepted, so making some space helps defend against this second one and from Lily simply running up to her and smacking her binder with her spear mid-chant to interrupt it.
So as I said, 2 more possible uses of a secondary sorcery to speed up a chant and another where it's clearly not.
He summoned Quachill Uttaus while the Church's army was at bay because they were waiting for him to leave, Michael himself was waiting for him. he had, again, absolutely no reason to hurry it up. Your examples are so bad it's saddening. She blinded them and went up so that she could align them with the the one on the ground and kill all of them in one shot in a way that they wouldn't realize.
You clearly ignore the quotes proving your entire argument wrong when the narration and characters note how long chants are a weakness.
Closest thing to actually decent evidence so far. that is, if you forget the fact that they had decided to go all out and stop cheap tricks, just as Homura didn't interrupt Michael while he was concentrating his Holy Ground around his blade, Michael didn't either. 3 uses with 1 questionable instance where it wasn't used for no reason.
Dismissing and ignoring the parts you don't like completely devalues your entire argument. So far we have 1 instance of compressed time and 2 of possible compressed time, all likely caused by the same secondary time element sorcery used by Sumika later and not as an intrinsic property of chants, as proven by all the other instances of chants clearly not compressing time that debunk your entire argument.
She needed an opening, and by that point she had been fighting almost non-stop for a long time.
She didn't need to chant it fast, she wanted to wait until the surprise of her last clone being a Shoggoth hit Gabriel and aim for that moment. Moreover, it's possible all this plan could've went to shit if she had used more magic than she needed to, you know, in case he noticed ? No chant whatsoever was heard, only the last line that they always pronounce, funnily enough when only this line is used it's most of the time because of Time-Compression, so you very much have no basis here. Yog-Sothoth is, as far as we know, his strongest summon. Of course I wouldn't expect a weakened Homura acting through Sumika's body via contract to be able to shorten it.
4 uses 4 uses with 2 questionable instances where it wasn't used.
Again, even yourself admit your entire argument of "Chants have been repeatedly stated to be used in "compressed time", they're pretty much instant for all intents and purpose" is false and proven wrong by the actual quotes I provided. A couple of times the character making the chant has chosen to also use time magic to speed it up, but all the other times they haven't. So in.character is way more likely than they won't immediately jump to that, not that it would help if they did in a speed equalized match against an opponent with better time manipulation abilities.
Given your general hostile tone when called out on your claims, how you refuse to provide actual proof of your claims, use of half-truths or lies and how you immediately jumped to cheap insults when proven wrong I'm giving up on this debate. You're only going to repeat the same debunked arguments again, so I'll save both of our times.
They're not unfounded claims really. One character does a feat which is stated to be with pure power alone, no fancy tricks, no resistance as you yourself say. But you refuse to powerscale it to someone else who is explicitly stronger... because. Yeah, if that doesn't make any sense to you you're on the right track.
They're unfounded. Gabriel didn't shrug off anything, he just opened the hole before it could fully close due to his brute physical strength (not necessarily equal to raw power, you can have a magician X with more raw power than character Y despite being physically inferior). This is not a resistance feat, he's not resisting a time-stop or resisting time manipulation. And even if he had resistance to time manipulation it wouldn't scale to Homura, as resistances don't scale to stronger characters unless the mechanics of the verse work like that, and they don't in this case, as I've explained multiple times.
So basically, you're saying he wasn't swallowed. You do'nt understand the basic implications behind your claims. He wasn't completely swallowed if his spear was preventing the hole from closing, basic common sense which you visibly lack. So yes, narration explicitly says he was swallowed, vanishing from her sight, baww around all you want that's a fact. Pro-tip ? A huge ass spear protruding from a vortex is not something you can't notice. So you have absolutely no leg to stand on.
No, I'm not saying that, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that the hole never fully closed and sealed Gabriel in Daoloth's territory, he had time to extend his spear before that and used that to keep the hole open and force himself back through the hole.
His voice came out while his body was still twisting and being absorbed, so of course his voice still carried over to her. Congratulations, you don't understand basic literary devices. Here's how it goes:
> Sumika hits him with Grim Bullet > Struggle ensues > He vanishes from her sight (at this point he had completely been swallowed > Narration says that this should have been the end of him, that no one should be able to come back from that > he comes back anyway and stabs her in a surprise attack There's absolutely nothing complicated here, you'd think.
No, he talks from the hole and stabs her after the hole sucks him up but before it can be closed, so he was never fully exiled as he had the portal connecting him to the universe and its space-time.
Finally his figure vanished from in front of Sumika.
Nowhere in this universe, the empty space where no space, no time, no concept, nothing existed at all.
Gabriel was dragged into the territory of Daoloth.
That was, what supposed to happen.
But,
――Do you know the meaning of the name Gabriel? ――
"Ka, -……!?"
Right after such question shook the atmosphere, Sumika felt the sensation of her stomach pierced by sharp impact.
You're contradicting yourself hard, don't you realize it ? You're simultaneously saying that raw power allows Gabriel to resist the effects of Daoloth and then claim it's a resistance that can't be powerscaled to others. Narration says he got out with power, Homura > him in power by orders of magnitude. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.
I'm not contradicting myself, you simply can't understand the simple fact that Gabriel didn't resist or shrug off anything, he only used brute physical strength (not necessarily equal to raw power) to keep the portal from closing. This is not a resistance feat.
Lmao, wrong:
"Nowhere in this universe, the empty void where no space, no time, no concept, nothing existed at all. Gabriel had been dragged into the territory of Daoloth." THE TERRITORY OF DAOLOTH. English. Basic. Understand.
It banishes them into his pocket dimension, so again, unless you're willing to claim Daoloth with all his described powers just happened to find this dimension as it is and made it his home, this is a power of his, which means Homura can summon him to do the exact same thing, dwi.
No. As I've already explained and proved, it's not a pocket dimension not something Daoloth created. It's the nothingness outside the universe and its space-time, so your argument here doesn't make any sense.
So you basically didn't read a word that I said ? Cool, lemme say it again then:
His Spirit body is stated to be unable to produce Magic Power due to lack of a magic power vein. Which means when he is turned into a Wraith he is stuck with the power he has when his body died. Which means, if you've followed this far, that when he turned he was already weakened because he didn't have the time to replenish his reserves, and busting out of Michael's stomach was also stated to have taken a great deal of power from him.
Ergo, all those things weakened him to the extent that he was "weak".
You're the one that didn't read a word of what I said. The "summoned Eihort and teleported the people in Tokyo" that you keep repeating he did as a wraith is not something done as a wraith, but something that he did just before he fully died when he still had access to his power. It has no relation to his powers as a wraith, which are explicitly incredibly diminished.
There's no proof of this claim "Which means when he is turned into a Wraith he is stuck with the power he has when his body died", because as I've already mentionedhe said he could only carry over a little of his power.
This claim "busting out of Michael's stomach was also stated to have taken a great deal of power from him" is false, he explicitly says it used up the small reserve of magic power he had as a wraith, not that it used a lot of magic power:
Even the little magic power I carried got completely used up when I took away Shiori.
Ah yes, it's easy but it takes a year, flawless logic right there buddy.
You're not even pretending to read my arguments anymore, you're just attacking a strawman at this point. Homura being able to easily make an artificial body is relative compared to Elfenia who needed a year. It doesn't necessarily mean it's instant.
Quote on it requiring "ingredients" now. I know this doesn't exist so I'm gonna wait for your concession. From the mouth of the man himself, literally the only things needed are "knowledge of the structure and composition of that, it's possible to create body."
Given the sometimes poor translation of the novels, I read that sentence as him saying you need the knowledge of the structure of the human body and the mattter that makes it up, similar to FMA's take on human transmutation. I'll agree to disagree on this, even if it doesn't resolve the issue of him probably needing another person to make the body.
Easy, no materials are actually needed and he's immune to Time-Stop.
Even if materials aren't needed, he's not immune to time-stop, we have no indication of how much time he needs to make one and you havent' explained how he gets away with doing so in front of an enemy capable of killing him at full power. This not taking into account that the new body is prbably not going to be as strong as his original one.
There's no need for Time-Compression if you use something else. Other news at 7.
Thank you for conceding chants aren't time-compressed, as this scene alone already debunks your entire argument.
Homura had just kicked Jambure's mouth and made his own attack implode in his mouth, the thing was pretty much dead. The only reason Homura summoned Ithaqua was to get rid of his body so that it would not crush the injured Magicians below. there was literally no need for anything speeding up the summoning here.
See, that's the problem with making claims ignoring context, it's as brittle as a sandcastle. So, 1 use of Compressed chant.
No, 1 possible use of a secondary sorcery to speed a chant and another where it's clearly not.
Putting distance between her and Lilly is meaningless to begin with, her Gae Bolg can strike anything she wants within her field of vision and it's pretty much instant as well, of course she'd put some protection, especially since it worked once during her surprise attack through the guest house.
No, she can do that with one version of the technique, the other one is a scarlet flash that travels through air can can clearly be intercepted, so making some space helps defend against this second one and from Lily simply running up to her and smacking her binder with her spear mid-chant to interrupt it.
So as I said, 2 more possible uses of a secondary sorcery to speed up a chant and another where it's clearly not.
He summoned Quachill Uttaus while the Church's army was at bay because they were waiting for him to leave, Michael himself was waiting for him. he had, again, absolutely no reason to hurry it up. Your examples are so bad it's saddening. She blinded them and went up so that she could align them with the the one on the ground and kill all of them in one shot in a way that they wouldn't realize.
You clearly ignore the quotes proving your entire argument wrong when the narration and characters note how long chants are a weakness.
Closest thing to actually decent evidence so far. that is, if you forget the fact that they had decided to go all out and stop cheap tricks, just as Homura didn't interrupt Michael while he was concentrating his Holy Ground around his blade, Michael didn't either. 3 uses with 1 questionable instance where it wasn't used for no reason.
Dismissing and ignoring the parts you don't like completely devalues your entire argument. So far we have 1 instance of compressed time and 2 of possible compressed time, all likely caused by the same secondary time element sorcery used by Sumika later and not as an intrinsic property of chants, as proven by all the other instances of chants clearly not compressing time that debunk your entire argument.
She needed an opening, and by that point she had been fighting almost non-stop for a long time.
She didn't need to chant it fast, she wanted to wait until the surprise of her last clone being a Shoggoth hit Gabriel and aim for that moment. Moreover, it's possible all this plan could've went to shit if she had used more magic than she needed to, you know, in case he noticed ? No chant whatsoever was heard, only the last line that they always pronounce, funnily enough when only this line is used it's most of the time because of Time-Compression, so you very much have no basis here. Yog-Sothoth is, as far as we know, his strongest summon. Of course I wouldn't expect a weakened Homura acting through Sumika's body via contract to be able to shorten it.
4 uses 4 uses with 2 questionable instances where it wasn't used.
Again, even yourself admit your entire argument of "Chants have been repeatedly stated to be used in "compressed time", they're pretty much instant for all intents and purpose" is false and proven wrong by the actual quotes I provided. A couple of times the character making the chant has chosen to also use time magic to speed it up, but all the other times they haven't. So in.character is way more likely than they won't immediately jump to that, not that it would help if they did in a speed equalized match against an opponent with better time manipulation abilities.
Given your general hostile tone when called out on your claims, how you refuse to provide actual proof of your claims, use of half-truths or lies and how you immediately jumped to cheap insults when proven wrong I'm giving up on this debate. You're only going to repeat the same debunked arguments again, so I'll save both of our times.
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They're unfounded. Gabriel didn't shrug off anything, he just opened the hole before it could fully close due to his brute physical strength (not necessarily equal to raw power, you can have a magician X with more raw power than character Y despite being physically inferior). This is not a resistance feat, he's not resisting a time-stop or resisting time manipulation. And even if he had resistance to time manipulation it wouldn't scale to Homura, as resistances don't scale to stronger characters unless the mechanics of the verse work like that, and they don't in this case, as I've explained multiple times.
He didn't, do you struggle with the concept of vanishing from her sight ? Again, pro-tip, a huge spear protruding from a vortex wouldn't go unnoticed. She thought it was over, and of course she did, he had just disappeared to a place a Time and Space as concepts didn't exist, the dude's butt-buddy got sent to the same place and couldn't come back. Yet he did, with raw power, no fancy resistance or techniques. Homura who is by feats leagues above him (remember the whole "a blow with this weight can mass scatter the planet" bit ? Yeah) can do exactly the same, aka he's not affected by Time-Stop.
No, I'm not saying that, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that the hole never fully closed and sealed Gabriel in Daoloth's territory, he had time to extend his spear before that and used that to keep the hole open and force himself back through the hole.
Yeah but the problem is you're wrong. You can't vanish from someone's sight when you still have a spear preventing the hole from closing up, Jesus Christ. You insult Sumika by basically turning her into a moronic bimbo who would still believe in her victory when a spear prevents the hole from closing. This isn't even an exaggeration, you'd need to be ******** to see that and still believe everything's fine and dandy. So you have no leg to stand on. According to you Sumika sees the spear preventing the hole from closing up and she goes "Welp, he tooootally vanished from my sight, I won ! Now where'd I put my hat..."
Like hell.
No, he talks from the hole and stabs her after the hole sucks him up but before it can be closed, so he was never fully exiled as he had the portal connecting him to the universe and its space-time.
No he didn't, se above.
I'm not contradicting myself, you simply can't understand the simple fact that Gabriel didn't resist or shrug off anything, he only used brute physical strength (not necessarily equal to raw power) to keep the portal from closing. This is not a resistance feat.
This is not what happened, lying through your teeth won't change anything about it.
No. As I've already explained and proved, it's not a pocket dimension not something Daoloth created. It's the nothingness outside the universe and its space-time, so your argument here doesn't make any sense.
HIS TERRITORY. You don't claim something to be your territory if it isn't, like what the hell...
You're the one that didn't read a word of what I said. The "summoned Eihort and teleported the people in Tokyo" that you keep repeating he did as a wraith is not something done as a wraith, but something that he did just before he fully died when he still had access to his power. It has no relation to his powers as a wraith, which are explicitly incredibly diminished.
Explicitly incredibly diminished after he had to do many things while stuck in a state where he could not generate Magic Power. The Eihort passage matters because he expanded his power before turning into said Wraith as I said before.
There's no proof of this claim "Which means when he is turned into a Wraith he is stuck with the power he has when his body died", because as I've already mentionedhe said he could only carry over a little of his power.
Yes, he could only carry over a little of his power because he used a ton of it just before dying. "We had a bag filled with 100 chocolate bars, I ate 80 of them on the road, so I could only save a little of the sum total" Replace with the appropriate terms and you've got exactly what happened.
This claim "busting out of Michael's stomach was also stated to have taken a great deal of power from him" is false, he explicitly says it used up the small reserve of magic power he had as a wraith, not that it used a lot of magic power:
I see you keep failing at basic English comprehension. I said, word for word, that it took a great deal of power FROM HIM. Aka it exhausted him even further. If his reserves was low and he had to expand most of it to get out, that took a great deal of power out of him. Want me to find yet another simpler way of saying this or we good ?
You're not even pretending to read my arguments anymore, you're just attacking a strawman at this point. Homura being able to easily make an artificial body is relative compared to Elfenia who needed a year. It doesn't necessarily mean it's instant.
It took a year because of the rank/power of Homura's soul. For Elfiena who wouldn't even scratch the sole of his shoes with the Aureole on of course it took some time. It's flat out stated the main difficulty was making a body good enough for him to hop in and this is where her atrocious magic levels kick in. Author would have never said it would be easy if Homura had to struggle for months making himself a good enough body, that's not what easy means.
Given the sometimes poor translation of the novels, I read that sentence as him saying you need the knowledge of the structure of the human body and the mattter that makes it up, similar to FMA's take on human transmutation. I'll agree to disagree on this, even if it doesn't resolve the issue of him probably needing another person to make the body.
He doesn't need another person. Also, you shouldn't read from baka-tsuki or whatever, grab the PDFs from Rec, they're edited with proper English.
Even if materials aren't needed, he's not immune to time-stop, we have no indication of how much time he needs to make one and you havent' explained how he gets away with doing so in front of an enemy capable of killing him at full power. This not taking into account that the new body is prbably not going to be as strong as his original one.
He is, scaling from Gabriel. And nothing indicates the body would be weaker, very much the opposite.
Thank you for conceding chants aren't time-compressed, as this scene alone already debunks your entire argument.
I'm conceding that chants aren't time-compressed when you yourself gave quotes about time-compressed chants being a thing ? You're a special brand of stupid.
No, 1 possible use of a secondary sorcery to speed a chant and another where it's clearly not.
If you happen to know of another way in-verse to speed up chanting time that isn't "interweave chant in discussion" because obviously that wasn't the case here, then feel free to let me know. Oh, that's right, there isn't ! Occam's razor, meet this nice little guy over there~
No, she can do that with one version of the technique, the other one is a scarlet flash that travels through air can can clearly be intercepted, so making some space helps defend against this second one and from Lily simply running up to her and smacking her binder with her spear mid-chant to interrupt it. So as I said, 2 more possible uses of a secondary sorcery to speed up a chant and another where it's clearly not.
Reading comprehension. I said that putting distance between her and Lilly was useless because if she went too far she would still be able to hit her with Gae Bolg, on the other hand she KNOWS that her shields can take a Gae Bolg strike. Ehrmagerd.
You clearly ignore the quotes proving your entire argument wrong when the narration and characters note how long chants are a weakness.
They are a weakness, provided you don't use anything to shorten them. I never said chants aren't long, I said that using Time-Compression they're for all intents and purpose instant, which is the case as demonstrated.
Dismissing and ignoring the parts you don't like completely devalues your entire argument. So far we have 1 instance of compressed time and 2 of possible compressed time, all likely caused by the same secondary time element sorcery used by Sumika later and not as an intrinsic property of chants, as proven by all the other instances of chants clearly not compressing time that debunk your entire argument.
So you fail at Maths in addition to reading ? But go ahead and count all those times you purposely ignored context and story to act like you have a solid basis behind your bawwing.
Again, even yourself admit your entire argument of "Chants have been repeatedly stated to be used in "compressed time", they're pretty much instant for all intents and purpose" is false and proven wrong by the actual quotes I provided. A couple of times the character making the chant has chosen to also use time magic to speed it up, but all the other times they haven't. So in.character is way more likely than they won't immediately jump to that, not that it would help if they did in a speed equalized match against an opponent with better time manipulation abilities.
It's not false as it's exactly what happens. And when they don't use that one specific way of giving themselves enough time, they generally use something else, as I said. So nah kiddo.
Given your general hostile tone when called out on your claims, how you refuse to provide actual proof of your claims, use of half-truths or lies and how you immediately jumped to cheap insults when proven wrong I'm giving up on this debate. You're only going to repeat the same debunked arguments again, so I'll save both of our times.
Have to wonder what was the point of writing all of that if you're gonna drop out, but hey. Probably the smart thing to do as we're apparently not supposed to debate this in a versus thread, curiously.
He didn't, do you struggle with the concept of vanishing from her sight ? Again, pro-tip, a huge spear protruding from a vortex wouldn't go unnoticed. She thought it was over, and of course she did, he had just disappeared to a place a Time and Space as concepts didn't exist, the dude's butt-buddy got sent to the same place and couldn't come back. Yet he did, with raw power, no fancy resistance or techniques. Homura who is by feats leagues above him (remember the whole "a blow with this weight can mass scatter the planet" bit ? Yeah) can do exactly the same, aka he's not affected by Time-Stop.
No, I'm not saying that, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that the hole never fully closed and sealed Gabriel in Daoloth's territory, he had time to extend his spear before that and used that to keep the hole open and force himself back through the hole.
Yeah but the problem is you're wrong. You can't vanish from someone's sight when you still have a spear preventing the hole from closing up, Jesus Christ. You insult Sumika by basically turning her into a moronic bimbo who would still believe in her victory when a spear prevents the hole from closing. This isn't even an exaggeration, you'd need to be ******** to see that and still believe everything's fine and dandy. So you have no leg to stand on. According to you Sumika sees the spear preventing the hole from closing up and she goes "Welp, he tooootally vanished from my sight, I won ! Now where'd I put my hat..."
Like hell.
No, he talks from the hole and stabs her after the hole sucks him up but before it can be closed, so he was never fully exiled as he had the portal connecting him to the universe and its space-time.
No he didn't, se above.
I'm not contradicting myself, you simply can't understand the simple fact that Gabriel didn't resist or shrug off anything, he only used brute physical strength (not necessarily equal to raw power) to keep the portal from closing. This is not a resistance feat.
This is not what happened, lying through your teeth won't change anything about it.
No. As I've already explained and proved, it's not a pocket dimension not something Daoloth created. It's the nothingness outside the universe and its space-time, so your argument here doesn't make any sense.
HIS TERRITORY. You don't claim something to be your territory if it isn't, like what the hell...
You're the one that didn't read a word of what I said. The "summoned Eihort and teleported the people in Tokyo" that you keep repeating he did as a wraith is not something done as a wraith, but something that he did just before he fully died when he still had access to his power. It has no relation to his powers as a wraith, which are explicitly incredibly diminished.
Explicitly incredibly diminished after he had to do many things while stuck in a state where he could not generate Magic Power. The Eihort passage matters because he expanded his power before turning into said Wraith as I said before.
There's no proof of this claim "Which means when he is turned into a Wraith he is stuck with the power he has when his body died", because as I've already mentionedhe said he could only carry over a little of his power.
Yes, he could only carry over a little of his power because he used a ton of it just before dying. "We had a bag filled with 100 chocolate bars, I ate 80 of them on the road, so I could only save a little of the sum total" Replace with the appropriate terms and you've got exactly what happened.
This claim "busting out of Michael's stomach was also stated to have taken a great deal of power from him" is false, he explicitly says it used up the small reserve of magic power he had as a wraith, not that it used a lot of magic power:
I see you keep failing at basic English comprehension. I said, word for word, that it took a great deal of power FROM HIM. Aka it exhausted him even further. If his reserves was low and he had to expand most of it to get out, that took a great deal of power out of him. Want me to find yet another simpler way of saying this or we good ?
You're not even pretending to read my arguments anymore, you're just attacking a strawman at this point. Homura being able to easily make an artificial body is relative compared to Elfenia who needed a year. It doesn't necessarily mean it's instant.
It took a year because of the rank/power of Homura's soul. For Elfiena who wouldn't even scratch the sole of his shoes with the Aureole on of course it took some time. It's flat out stated the main difficulty was making a body good enough for him to hop in and this is where her atrocious magic levels kick in. Author would have never said it would be easy if Homura had to struggle for months making himself a good enough body, that's not what easy means.
Given the sometimes poor translation of the novels, I read that sentence as him saying you need the knowledge of the structure of the human body and the mattter that makes it up, similar to FMA's take on human transmutation. I'll agree to disagree on this, even if it doesn't resolve the issue of him probably needing another person to make the body.
He doesn't need another person. Also, you shouldn't read from baka-tsuki or whatever, grab the PDFs from Rec, they're edited with proper English.
Even if materials aren't needed, he's not immune to time-stop, we have no indication of how much time he needs to make one and you havent' explained how he gets away with doing so in front of an enemy capable of killing him at full power. This not taking into account that the new body is prbably not going to be as strong as his original one.
He is, scaling from Gabriel. And nothing indicates the body would be weaker, very much the opposite.
Thank you for conceding chants aren't time-compressed, as this scene alone already debunks your entire argument.
I'm conceding that chants aren't time-compressed when you yourself gave quotes about time-compressed chants being a thing ? You're a special brand of stupid.
No, 1 possible use of a secondary sorcery to speed a chant and another where it's clearly not.
If you happen to know of another way in-verse to speed up chanting time that isn't "interweave chant in discussion" because obviously that wasn't the case here, then feel free to let me know. Oh, that's right, there isn't ! Occam's razor, meet this nice little guy over there~
No, she can do that with one version of the technique, the other one is a scarlet flash that travels through air can can clearly be intercepted, so making some space helps defend against this second one and from Lily simply running up to her and smacking her binder with her spear mid-chant to interrupt it. So as I said, 2 more possible uses of a secondary sorcery to speed up a chant and another where it's clearly not.
Reading comprehension. I said that putting distance between her and Lilly was useless because if she went too far she would still be able to hit her with Gae Bolg, on the other hand she KNOWS that her shields can take a Gae Bolg strike. Ehrmagerd.
You clearly ignore the quotes proving your entire argument wrong when the narration and characters note how long chants are a weakness.
They are a weakness, provided you don't use anything to shorten them. I never said chants aren't long, I said that using Time-Compression they're for all intents and purpose instant, which is the case as demonstrated.
Dismissing and ignoring the parts you don't like completely devalues your entire argument. So far we have 1 instance of compressed time and 2 of possible compressed time, all likely caused by the same secondary time element sorcery used by Sumika later and not as an intrinsic property of chants, as proven by all the other instances of chants clearly not compressing time that debunk your entire argument.
So you fail at Maths in addition to reading ? But go ahead and count all those times you purposely ignored context and story to act like you have a solid basis behind your bawwing.
Again, even yourself admit your entire argument of "Chants have been repeatedly stated to be used in "compressed time", they're pretty much instant for all intents and purpose" is false and proven wrong by the actual quotes I provided. A couple of times the character making the chant has chosen to also use time magic to speed it up, but all the other times they haven't. So in.character is way more likely than they won't immediately jump to that, not that it would help if they did in a speed equalized match against an opponent with better time manipulation abilities.
It's not false as it's exactly what happens. And when they don't use that one specific way of giving themselves enough time, they generally use something else, as I said. So nah kiddo.
Given your general hostile tone when called out on your claims, how you refuse to provide actual proof of your claims, use of half-truths or lies and how you immediately jumped to cheap insults when proven wrong I'm giving up on this debate. You're only going to repeat the same debunked arguments again, so I'll save both of our times.
Have to wonder what was the point of writing all of that if you're gonna drop out, but hey. Probably the smart thing to do as we're apparently not supposed to debate this in a versus thread, curiously.
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Starryknight200 said:
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Wish I could.
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Why not, you know, simply stop bumping this thing ?
Like, passing on the fact that at least one of the participant's page is horrendous, most if not all the votes so far have been made under the assumption that Time-Stop would work, which it won't. This thread summarizes all the flaws of having a voting system to determine a winner. Even if you do reach a conclusion here chances are it'll be the wrong one, and if not, it'll definitely be for the wrong reasons.
If you want to "end this" just let it die. It's rather curious that mods allow a thread to be repeatedly bumped for nearly a whole month, but hey.
Like, passing on the fact that at least one of the participant's page is horrendous, most if not all the votes so far have been made under the assumption that Time-Stop would work, which it won't. This thread summarizes all the flaws of having a voting system to determine a winner. Even if you do reach a conclusion here chances are it'll be the wrong one, and if not, it'll definitely be for the wrong reasons.
If you want to "end this" just let it die. It's rather curious that mods allow a thread to be repeatedly bumped for nearly a whole month, but hey.
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Have you made a CRT for this supposed "horrendous page"?
Pretty sure he wants to end it due to how much effort was made on both sides to make an argument, and not let it go to waste.
Pretty sure he wants to end it due to how much effort was made on both sides to make an argument, and not let it go to waste.
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CRT ?
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content revision thread
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That'd require more effort than I'm willing to spare. Especially if I have to get into the same kind of debate as above, taking nearly an hour to type a properly layed out response which could be done in 1/3rd of that time on a regular forum certainly doesn't encourage any sort of protracted debate, which is largely responsible for my foul mood and harsh words from before, typing long posts on here is a chore, no disrespect.
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Well, also no disrespect, but if you complain about the stats, have evidence for the change, but won't do it because you don't wanna waste your own time, for what is really just a normal debate on any forum (don't know where you get the protracted debate when you were trying to debate on the wrong thread to begin with), then you really have no right to complain.
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I'm not complaining though, you'll notice I didn't even try to change anyone's mind, or even vote myself to begin with. I'm just stating a fact, anyone who has actually paid attention to the text would have a double-take reading Homura's page.
"Hypersonic" when Hecathoncheires, whom Homura shat on the moment he stopped caring about using Elfiena's method for political reasons, reacted before a lightspeed attack could go from his forehead to the ground ? "Possibly Planet level" when one of the sorceries he used while still having a massive seal on him was stated to have the energy equivalent of the Sun ? Or that a swing of his Cthulu-reinforced sword could mass scatter an alternate version of the Earth ? I've seen some pages on here that use higher-end interpretations for far less and despite a lot more opposing evidence.
Don't worry, I don't expect anything to change unless I make said thread. And you won't see me complain about something I'm too lazy to attempt to change.
Only reason I'm still posting here is because I keep receiving e-mails whenever it's bumped and I feel compelled to check back in case someone quoted me or something. Which is frankly annoying.
"Hypersonic" when Hecathoncheires, whom Homura shat on the moment he stopped caring about using Elfiena's method for political reasons, reacted before a lightspeed attack could go from his forehead to the ground ? "Possibly Planet level" when one of the sorceries he used while still having a massive seal on him was stated to have the energy equivalent of the Sun ? Or that a swing of his Cthulu-reinforced sword could mass scatter an alternate version of the Earth ? I've seen some pages on here that use higher-end interpretations for far less and despite a lot more opposing evidence.
Don't worry, I don't expect anything to change unless I make said thread. And you won't see me complain about something I'm too lazy to attempt to change.
Only reason I'm still posting here is because I keep receiving e-mails whenever it's bumped and I feel compelled to check back in case someone quoted me or something. Which is frankly annoying.
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Ah I see, btw, you know you can unfollow the thread if you want, its on the top right part of the op's post.
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Thanks for the tip.
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