Battle for strongest non-smurf High 8-C (Toujou Karuna vs Void Knight)

[DontTalkDT]

Toujou Karuna vs Void Knight

Speed Equal
High 8-C keys
SBA otherwise

How does it end?

 

[deonment]

NEP2 + resistances out the ass means void knight ggs, specially since all its damage hit people on the conceptual level

 

[DontTalkDT]

NEP2 + resistances out the ass means void knight ggs, specially since all its damage hit people on the conceptual level

Can Void Knight get close enough to Karuna to actually harm him in turn, though? He has only like several meters range, while Karuna easily has kilometers.
Add teleportation to other continents on top and Karuna can fight him forever, without ever entering VN's range.

 

[deonment]

Can Void Knight get close enough to Karuna to actually harm him in turn, though? He has only like several meters range, while Karuna easily has kilometers.
Add teleportation to other continents on top and Karuna can fight him forever, without ever entering VN's range.

at worst then it is incon, depends on how the power null works

 

[Everything12]

Toujou doesn't even have Longevity nevermind Immortally, so even that tactic won't grant an incon against the Void Knight and its Immortality. This is a stomp.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Toujou doesn't even have Longevity nevermind Immortally, so even that tactic won't grant an incon against the Void Knight and its Immortality. This is a stomp.

He has resurrection and can de-age himself with time magic. He could even turn himself into an undead, demon or angel, who are immortal. So age is not a problem.

Anyway, I just wanted to establish that the battle isn't ending any time soon before I start bringing up possibilities of how Karuna wins, since Karuna will probably need some time before he starts using the strategies I come up with. I have come up with a few and want to see if anything would work.

Let's start with the following: VK's weakness section states "Like all Undead, attempts to heal a Void Knight instead harm it".
Karuna has healing potent enough to resurrect the dead. Could he heal it to death?

depends on how the power null works

I mean, according to the profile the power null doesn't have enough range to work, so I don't think it comes into play.

 

[deonment]

Karuna has healing potent enough to resurrect the dead. Could he heal it to death?

can he interact with NEP2? also low-godly

 

[DontTalkDT]

can he interact with NEP2? also low-godly

Is the NEP2 its entire being? Profile makes it sounds like it has some physical parts.

Anyway, how much damage the healing magic deals kinda depends on Void Knight, not Karuna. The only reason it deals damage at all is that Void Knight has that weird healing does damage aspect. I don't know how much damage how much healing deals, as that depends on Anima's mechanism regarding the inversion.

 

[deonment]

Is the NEP2 its entire being? Profile makes it sounds like it has some physical parts.

Yes it is everything about it that is nep2

 

[Everything12]

It says his body and soul are infused with the Non-existence, and in Anima, the Soul is also one's Concept.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm just not sure how I should, in practice, treat "infused with nonexistence" for something with a physical body that you can hit.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter. As said, it depends on how Anima treats the healing magic inversion. If spamming physical healing is enough to kill a Void Knight in Anima, then it should work for Karuna too. If not, then not.

Let me bring up strategy #2 as well. Karuna can create pocket dimensions. Now, due to Void Knights resistance, Karuna can't just throw it into a pocket dimension. However, I believe Void Knights resistances would not stop it from willingly entering a pocket dimension. So Karuna could simply make a cave that is in truth an entrance into a pocket dimensions.
Void Knight has to get close to Karuna to kill him, so it would willingly follow him inside. Given its lack of fitting perception abilities, it wouldn't even notice that it enters a pocket dimension.
Once both are inside, Karuna can teleport himself out and get rid of the entrance. At that point Void Knight has no ability that would allow it to get back out, so Karuna wins per BFR.

 

[Antoniofer]

I believe someone get mixxed DnD with Anima, healing powers cause no harm to undeads, there's no such a thing as Positive or Negative Energy in that verse. May I ask where is this supposed trait is coming from?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I believe someone get mixxed DnD with Anima, healing powers cause no harm to undeads, there's no such a thing as Positive or Negative Energy in that verse. May I ask where is this supposed trait is coming from?

Don't ask me, I just go by what is written in the weakness section on the profile.

If it helps, this was the revision it was added.

 

[Antoniofer]

Mm, guess I'll need to find out about that statement.

Meanwhile, as long one does not forcibly try to teleport th knight to another place (without the use of summoning abilities, but since vk is an undead so those wouldn't work neither) then its resistances wouldn't get "triggered"; it would be the case of opening a spatial gate and then bring him there through mundane means (like using the spell Portal).

 

[DontTalkDT]

Mm, guess I'll need to find out about that statement.

Meanwhile, as long one does not forcibly try to teleport th knight to another place (without the use of summoning abilities, but since vk is an undead so those wouldn't work neither) then its resistances wouldn't get "triggered"; it would be the case of opening a spatial gate and then bring him there through mundane means (like using the spell Portal).

So the pocket reality thing would work then, right?

Also, funny that you bring up the summoning thing because that was tactic #3 I was going to bring up. I read that undead summoners can apparently summon and bind other undead, so I thought that Karuna might be able to do that with his summoning magic if he turns himself into an undead first.

 

[Antoniofer]

Although, summoning through magic may not be the same as the summoning abilities; last one involve synchronizing with the essence of the creature in order to bring it to its side or banishing ot where it belongs. Simply using magic to open portal or forcibly teleport them away does not qualify as summoning, and doing it so would trigger the vk's resistances. In the case that the summoning work like the summoning abilities in general, then one could, although it may carry some risks, like, instead of banishing the knight one would instead summong a bunch of other vk (but that is in the worst of the cases).

 

[DontTalkDT]

Summoning magic is a different branch of magic than space magic, so I think it's probably different from just normal teleportation.

 

[Antoniofer]

It deoends how is defined that summoning magic, for instance, does it works with natural beings (i.e, humans, animals)?

 

[DontTalkDT]

The novel isn't clear about the limits in that regard. It has never demonstrated summoning a non-supernatural entity.

Alternatively, if summoning magic in Anima can be learned, there is also the potential of Karuna learning Anima's brand mid-battle.

 

[Antoniofer]

Considering that summoning magic seems to be another school in magic here, it may qualify more as magic than summoning. Plus, if its magic, then VK may nullify with Nemesis; this does not necessary means the character is unable to cast magic, but since it reduces the zeonic (zeon is kind like the well known mana) value, the spell would be cast with less potency or can't manifest at all, although a character can spend more accumulation time and zeon in order to compensate this lost. The magic null only last 174 seconds before the VK runs out of reserves.

Summoning abilities (summon, banish, bind and domination) can be learned in the same way one may learn a skill like Acrobatics or History, as one does not need any special power aside of the respective ritual and Zeon supply. However, how is this character could learn a skill that can't be used by neither fighter here?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Karuna has a skill called Information Extremity (or 'Pinnacle of Information' I need to rename that at some point).
That skill is basically something like an oracle. If he wishes to know something he can ask it and the skill will 'download' all the necessary information right into his mind.
That's how Karuna learned all his magic skills. He basically just asks 'how do I do x' and instantly gains god-class skill in it due to the knowledge flowing into his mind.

So in this case he could ask 'how do I bind VK' and gain knowledge of how it's done.

 

[Everything12]

NEP2 and resistance to Information Analysis will prevent it from knowing anything about Void Knight.

 

[DontTalkDT]

NEP2 and resistance to Information Analysis will prevent it from knowing anything about Void Knight.

It's not doing information analysis on void knight, so the point really doesn't matter.
As it only resists information analysis, Void Knight can't cancel information gathering skills that don't affect it, i.e. that do not use it as the source of said information.

 

[Antoniofer]

I don't think is as simply as knowing what summoning is in order to succefully bind or banish someone; summoning involve knowledge, concentration and animic power, with several degrees of intensity, from needing a one year ritual to bind an spirit to simply call down a demi-god by calling its name.

If Toujo can simply choose show powerful their summoning abilities can be one can also argue that he very well can summon a legion of demons in an instant, that makes me subspect that it could be nlf-ish.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, he doesn't just get the information on what it is, but also precisely how to do it. As in, he can actually use this knowledge in practice. He arrived in the universe without knowing what magic is, but due to this skill, he immediately could, in practice, cast god-class fire magic. The difficulty of that is so high that nobody else in the verse can do it, neither demon lords, archangels nor dragon kings.

I think knowledge and concentration are no problem, given his skills. Animic power might be, depending on what that is. If it is something that equalizes to neither ki nor magic, then the question is if Karuna can acquire it somehow.

Karuna can't choose how powerful he or his ability is. The information ability only gives him detailed knowledge. If, despite all knowledge, he isn't powerful enough to summon an entity, he still can't. He has demonstrated effortlessly summoning 7-A's, though, so I suspect a High 8-C summon would be no problem from a perspective of power if he can use his magic for it.

 

[Antoniofer]

Choosing how powerful a creature is in order to be succesfully summoned/banished/bound/dominated may be arbitrary. Not taking gnostic limitations into account (that shouldn't be an issue here due VK relatively low gnosis) how much summoning skill and zeon is needed depends of the power of the entity, although power in this context does not mean it punches harder or its faster, but rather refer to the sheer potential of the creature (basically it depend sof the level of the creature, but level is not a measure of speed or physical strength, although its true that the strongest creatures [combat wise] tend to be high leveled, this is not always necessary the case).

This all may seems to much of an stretch, as there is other ways of defeating the VK through more mundane ways, like exploding its lack of range for example.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Choosing how powerful a creature is in order to be succesfully summoned/banished/bound/dominated may be arbitrary. Not taking gnostic limitations into account (that shouldn't be an issue here due VK relatively low gnosis) how much summoning skill and zeon is needed depends of the power of the entity, although power in this context does not mean it punches harder or its faster, but rather refer to the sheer potential of the creature (basically it depend sof the level of the creature, but level is not a measure of speed or physical strength, although its true that the strongest creatures [combat wise] tend to be high leveled, this is not always necessary the case).

So what would that mean in practice for this match?

This all may seems to much of an stretch, as there is other ways of defeating the VK through more mundane ways, like exploding its lack of range for example.

Which mundane ways do you mean specifically? Between the regeneration, nonexistent physiology and resistance to basically everything, it sounds like defeating it would (usually) need highly esoteric abilities.

 

[Antoniofer]

So what would that mean in practice for this match?

Not sure. If it work for a reference, for a group of 10 average summoners to banish an entity with the same level/potential its required a 1 month ritual to do so with a guaranteed succeed (unless something goes terribly wrong). Dominating a creature is more difficult, requiring over 50 years to do so and yet have a minor chance of failing. Naturally one can try to do it in less time, but it can be risky and may require some luck, either the attemp does not work (best of the cases) or you summon a bunch of other VK (worst case if try to banish).

Which mundane ways do you mean specifically? Between the regeneration, nonexistent physiology and resistance to basically everything, it sounds like defeating it would (usually) need highly esoteric abilities.

NEP aside, the VK is simply a swordman, its ranged attacks costs it health, stuff like danmaku its pretty troublesome to something like him (actually, ranged attacks are an effective way to deal with him in game); his attacks can ignore dura and cause spirit damage (so that means no regen for a while) but dodging its still valid maneuver. The VK does not have a notable regen, it simply use Nemesis to hold its body together, like, if you cut his arm then another one made of energy would take its place, but the arm is gone (not that it makes a difference); this however can be avoided by beheading (something that instantly kills the creature... just like any other creature). Of course, even if you kill it, its final attack may kill the target if it already suffered enough damage during the battle and its within range.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not sure. If it work for a reference, for a group of 10 average summoners to banish an entity with the same level/potential its required a 1 month ritual to do so with a guaranteed succeed (unless something goes terribly wrong). Dominating a creature is more difficult, requiring over 50 years to do so and yet have a minor chance of failing. Naturally one can try to do it in less time, but it can be risky and may require some luck, either the attemp does not work (best of the cases) or you summon a bunch of other VK (worst case if try to banish).

I see. Karuna has an ability that lets him skip chants and stuff to cast spells without casting time. Otherwise he could still use time magic to make it happen in 1/60th of the time. With his parallel thinking or duplication abilities acting for 10 summoners is no problem either.
So, more manageable than it sounds, I guess.

NEP aside, the VK is simply a swordman, its ranged attacks costs it health, stuff like danmaku its pretty troublesome to something like him (actually, ranged attacks are an effective way to deal with him in game); his attacks can ignore dura and cause spirit damage (so that means no regen for a while) but dodging its still valid maneuver. The VK does not have a notable regen, it simply use Nemesis to hold its body together, like, if you cut his arm then another one made of energy would take its place, but the arm is gone (not that it makes a difference); this however can be avoided by beheading (something that instantly kills the creature... just like any other creature). Of course, even if you kill it, its final attack may kill the target if it already suffered enough damage during the battle and its within range.

So you can kill a Void Knight by just beheading it by common means? So Karuna could, for example, simply throw large shuriken at it from kilometers away until he eventually manages to cut its head off?

He should be able to manage that.

 

[Everything12]

That's without taking NEP2 into account.

 

[DontTalkDT]

And how is it with taking NEP2 into account?

 

[Everything12]

He can't affect it directly in any way.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Despite not being incorporeal? Are you sure about that?

 

[Everything12]

I fail to see how Incorporeal has anything to do with Nonexistent Physiology making things unable to interact with you. If it has Nonexistent Physiology, then its nonexistent and thus can't be interacted with by things who can't interact with nonexistence (and Type 2 is so nonexistent that even smurfy stuff can't do anything without feats)

 

[Antoniofer]

You can read what of the few Nemesis abilities can do here (note that the VK does not possesses all of them). I can give you more descriptions if you wish, but you'll need to wait.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I fail to see how Incorporeal has anything to do with Nonexistent Physiology making things unable to interact with you. If it has Nonexistent Physiology, then its nonexistent and thus can't be interacted with by things who can't interact with nonexistence (and Type 2 is so nonexistent that even smurfy stuff can't do anything without feats)

Thing is, if you can punch it and it is tangible, then it must stop your punch. That means an interaction is happening, as the punch behaves differently as it would without its presence.

If one truly can't interact with it, it must be incorporeal, as only that way there is no interaction between it and other physical things i.e. any punch targeted at it would behave exactly as it would without its presence, by going straight through it unopposed.

So I don't think a physical (i.e. non-incorporeal) character with any type of NEP automatically is immune to all conventional damage. How it is in the case depends on the game.

You can read what of the few Nemesis abilities can do here (note that the VK does not possesses all of them). I can give you more descriptions if you wish, but you'll need to wait.

I read through it. In my understanding, there are two abilities of these dealing with evading physical damage.

The first is "Form of Emptiness". In my understanding, this grants intangibility, but consumes Ki which I assume means that it can't be used forever. Additionally attacks able to affect energy can affect it. As Karuna's Cutting Extremity skill allows him to cut energy he should be able to bypass that one, unless there are verse equalization issues.

The second one is "One with the Nothing". In my understanding, this neither evades damage being done nor heals it, but instead just makes it inconsequential by replacing the destroyed body parts with ones made from pure energy. However, the "Technically, a character with this ability can survive while he has a head and a few organs left" seems to suggest that if the head is missing that would still kill the creature. So, I guess the head can't be replaced by energy?
Additionally, gameplay-wise, while physical penalties don't apply magical ones apparently still do. I'm not quite sure what that means in practice, though.

So, from the sound of these abilities alone, it doesn't seem like it is (permanently) immune to physical attacks to the head nor able to just shrug the damage done to it.

However, I will wait for your clarification on the matter.

 

[Antoniofer]

Vk does not possesses Form of Nothingness, the Nemesis abilities that the create has are: Use of Nemesis (basically the power that enable the other ones), Armor of Emptiness (Damage reduction), Noht (an advanced form of Armor of Emptiness), Ki Cancellation, Magic Cancellation, Matrices Cancellation (this is psionic nullification), Emptiness Extrusion, Body of Emptiness, One with the Nothing and Aura of Emptiness; the reaon for VK's NEP is described in the One with the Nothing ability, by fusing its body with Nemesis energy and then making its body and spirit to be a single one.

Yes, as I said, it can be killed by being beheaded (or perhaps destroying most of its head may be valid as well) or impaled in the heart or any vital organ; as an undead, the VK only vulnerable point s its head. Physical penalties are those that are induced by physical dispairments, such losing limbs, pain, bleeding, etc. One with the Nothing, meanwhile supernatural ones are... well, basically everything else, like making you slower cuz of magic, petrification, etc.

Here is the main definition of Nemesis.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Thing is, if you can punch it and it is tangible, then it must stop your punch. That means an interaction is happening, as the punch behaves differently as it would without its presence.

If one truly can't interact with it, it must be incorporeal, as only that way there is no interaction between it and other physical things i.e. any punch targeted at it would behave exactly as it would without its presence, by going straight through it unopposed.

So I don't think a physical (i.e. non-incorporeal) character with any type of NEP automatically is immune to all conventional damage. How it is in the case depends on the game.

Youre implying Non-Existence is corporeal? Especially Type 2?

You likely in normal circumstances cannot even percieve something that is nonexistent, let alone touch it or interact with it. It is incorporeal for the sheer fact that there is nothing to interact with at all, literally. It is by definition incorporeal.

"Incorporeal (or Non-Corporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept. Being incorporeal is very different than Intangibility, as an intangible being's body is their true body, it just can't be affected by conventional physical forces. A incorporeal being does not usually have any kind of concrete, defined form, and can appear in many different forms if they wish, though the destruction of these bodies is of little relevance to the entity behind them."

The prerequisite for Incorporeality by our standards, is having no true physical form composed of matter. That is in fact what NEP is.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Youre implying Non-Existence is corporeal? Especially Type 2?

You likely in normal circumstances cannot even percieve something that is nonexistent, let alone touch it or interact with it. It is incorporeal for the sheer fact that there is nothing to interact with at all, literally. It is by definition incorporeal.

"Incorporeal (or Non-Corporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept. Being incorporeal is very different than Intangibility, as an intangible being's body is their true body, it just can't be affected by conventional physical forces. A incorporeal being does not usually have any kind of concrete, defined form, and can appear in many different forms if they wish, though the destruction of these bodies is of little relevance to the entity behind them."

The prerequisite for Incorporeality by our standards, is having no true physical form composed of matter. That is in fact what NEP is.

Void Knight is corporeal, though. In fact, I'm pretty sure we have quite a few characters with NEP that are corporeal. By our current standards that is actually permissible.

I think that corporeal characters should at minimum be separated into another type than other NEP users, but that is subject of an upcoming revision of the ability. Honestly, it might be time to finally do that...

 

[ShivaShakti]

Void Knight is corporeal, though. In fact, I'm pretty sure we have quite a few characters with NEP that are corporeal. By our current standards that is actually permissible.

I think that corporeal characters should at minimum be separated into another type than other NEP users, but that is subject of an upcoming revision of the ability. Honestly, it might be time to finally do that...

If he's corporeal then he wouldn't have NEP in the first place. To have NEP, you have be nonexistent, meaning no physical form in anyway.