Battle for #5 strongest 7-B: Toujou Karuna vs Void Entity

[DontTalkDT]

Toujou Karuna vs Void Entity

Speed Equal
SBA otherwise

 

[DontTalkDT]

Screaming is a bodily thing, Void Entity is a God-tier, of course that kind of being corrupting the area would cause one to scream.

I mean, it does indicate that the corruption wasn't complete at that point. Why would he scream when already brainwashed and completely corrupted?

If Toujou goes into the void he needs to fly or he dies. Let alone the place being the place where the corruption is at its most broken, mind you this is both type 1 and 2 corruption, so unless the species you mentioned later on resists both he gets screwed automatically.

Is there some species that resists both? Because Karuna has info gathering skills that could let him find the right species.

What do you mean with "to fly or he dies"? Literally fly? He can do that. And he doesn't necessarily need to enter it. Could just do spatial stuff to send attacks through... or golems.

Does nothing to handle Void Entity also screwing the soul

But if it screws the soul without screwing the mind, does the effect still incapacitate? And, mind you, inversion and time manip can still defend against that. In fact, that's another way Karuna could avoid even entering the void. He can just reverse time to before VE left and then keep him frozen in time.

RotMG makes a difference between something like VE and a ghost. A ghost like Septavius is capable of going intangible to others who can hit and see ghosts, quite obviously Entity scales when he's astral projecting cause he's also invisible

Ok... but that doesn't mean the technique doesn't work. Karuna can also, for instance, cut invisible intangible phenomena.

VE resists all of his own shit+ would corrupt/possess any goddesses first

Doesn't explain how he would resist extortion and love curse. Unless you want to equalize corruption to the curse, but then Karuna also resists the corruption.

And the goddesses have superior range (and can blitz and oneshot from stats alone, being superior to the Demon King). Not to mention that Karuna could counter control them.

Implying a pure nihilist would not destroy something he loves.

Any actual showings of that? Mind you, Karuna can also just control him to feel or do literally anything else.

He just gets another crack. Wanna know why? "his raw form can only be sustained within the Void." And we've seen what happens when his raw form gets exposed outside the void, it is a dissapearence so damn fast that it doesn't even happen as we can see it, a crack just auto appears.

Time Manip.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean, it does indicate that the corruption wasn't complete at that point. Why would he scream when already brainwashed and completely corrupted?


Is there some species that resists both? Because Karuna has info gathering skills that could let him find the right species.

What do you mean with "to fly or he dies"? Literally fly? He can do that. And he doesn't necessarily need to enter it. Could just do spatial stuff to send attacks through... or golems.


But if it screws the soul without screwing the mind, does the effect still incapacitate? And, mind you, inversion and time manip can still defend against that. In fact, that's another way Karuna could avoid even entering the void. He can just reverse time to before VE left and then keep him frozen in time.


Ok... but that doesn't mean the technique doesn't work. Karuna can also, for instance, cut invisible intangible phenomena.


Doesn't explain how he would resist extortion and love curse. Unless you want to equalize corruption to the curse, but then Karuna also resists the corruption.

And the goddesses have superior range (and can blitz and oneshot from stats alone, being superior to the Demon King). Not to mention that Karuna could counter control them.


Any actual showings of that? Mind you, Karuna can also just control him to feel or do literally anything else.


Time Manip.

Recycled and reused argument. "Screaming is a bodily thing, Void Entity is a God-tier, of course that kind of being corrupting the area would cause one to scream." Also when did I say it brainwashed ever? Nowhere is it even implied to do that

No.

Dura neg stuff called Pure Evil VE can go into willy nilly.

Considering VE has like 8 different bodies he's still actively possessing, nah.

Does this work on what's essentially stand-level Intangibility(More intangible than yer average ghost)

Can't hax what you can't touch... also Toujou, again, lacks NPI on his profile, feats are cool and all, but let's get em on the frankly crappy PnA first yeah?

They're corrupted before they try, and Toujou lacks mindfucking on his profile.

"He is motivated purely by the desire to bring complete and utter annihilation to the realm." Literally a part of the quotes I used for his file.

NLF.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Recycled and reused argument. "Screaming is a bodily thing, Void Entity is a God-tier, of course that kind of being corrupting the area would cause one to scream." Also when did I say it brainwashed ever? Nowhere is it even implied to do that

Then how does the corruption incapacitate people? From the scans you posted I had the impression it turns them to VE side. If not that, why wouldn't Karuna just kill VE anyway, even after he was corrupted?

And "screaming is a bodily thing" isn't a good argument. As said, you don't scream without any reason. As long as he's screaming something is still happening to him, that makes him scream. Are this corrupted in pain after being completely corrupted or something? Because otherwise I don't see it. Mind you, the burden of proof is on you for this one.

No.

What about whichever species the void entity is?

Dura neg stuff called Pure Evil VE can go into willy nilly.

So it's literally about flying? Yeah, he can do that.

Considering VE has like 8 different bodies he's still actively possessing, nah.

Which argument is that supposed to counter?

Does this work on what's essentially stand-level Intangibility(More intangible than yer average ghost)

Considering that a ghost still has a spectral body and a phenomena is just... a phenomena, I'm gonna say yes.

Can't hax what you can't touch... also Toujou, again, lacks NPI on his profile, feats are cool and all, but let's get em on the frankly crappy PnA first yeah?

NPI is for being able to harm intangible things with physical attacks. That's why soul manip does not grant it for example. Karuna doesn't have NPI because he uses powers for affecting intangible stuff that are made for intangible harm. And as usual in my profiles most everything is mentioned explicitely in the Notable A/T section.

Anyway, yes can hax what you can't touch, since power absorption interacts with powers not with your body.

They're corrupted before they try, and Toujou lacks mindfucking on his profile.

Oh, so he does. I literally put the Mind Manipulation Extremity skill in the Notable A/T section but forgot to add it into P&A. Gotta fix that soon.

Anyway, VE lacks the range to corrupt over multiversal range, so he can't corrupt the goddesses before they do stuff.

"He is motivated purely by the desire to bring complete and utter annihilation to the realm." Literally a part of the quotes I used for his file.

I mean, that would be a good argument against social influencing, but these are spells whose function is to change the desires of people. His prior desires are not his later ones.

NLF.

How is time reversal and time stop against someone with no resistance at all a NLF?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Then how does the corruption incapacitate people? From the scans you posted I had the impression it turns them to VE side. If not that, why wouldn't Karuna just kill VE anyway, even after he was corrupted?

And "screaming is a bodily thing" isn't a good argument. As said, you don't scream without any reason. As long as he's screaming something is still happening to him, that makes him scream. Are this corrupted in pain after being completely corrupted or something? Because otherwise I don't see it. Mind you, the burden of proof is on you for this one.


What about whichever species the void entity is?


So it's literally about flying? Yeah, he can do that.


Which argument is that supposed to counter?


Considering that a ghost still has a spectral body and a phenomena is just... a phenomena, I'm gonna say yes.


NPI is for being able to harm intangible things with physical attacks. That's why soul manip does not grant it for example. Karuna doesn't have NPI because he uses powers for affecting intangible stuff that are made for intangible harm. And as usual in my profiles most everything is mentioned explicitely in the Notable A/T section.

Anyway, yes can hax what you can't touch, since power absorption interacts with powers not with your body.


Oh, so he does. I literally put the Mind Manipulation Extremity skill in the Notable A/T section but forgot to add it into P&A. Gotta fix that soon.

Anyway, VE lacks the range to corrupt over multiversal range, so he can't corrupt the goddesses before they do stuff.


I mean, that would be a good argument against social influencing, but these are spells whose function is to change the desires of people. His prior desires are not his later ones.


How is time reversal and time stop against someone with no resistance at all a NLF?

It incaps by basically putting them on Puppet strings, enough of a beating to the particularly willful(Esben the Unwilling is a very good example) can cause the individual to snap out of the corruption for a few seconds but VE can just override this manually if need be

It's agonizing to the original soul have two or more e souls in one body, need proof? On the quotes for his file again. Obviously the same thing that applies to a golem will apply to a normal guy

I think you'd have to have proof of Toujou being able to turn into clears throat a "Spiritual Embodiment of Evil Itself" Aka, I don't think he has a race.

Good! Now can he move a universal distance before he just self-BFRs from the fight?

Incapping the main body doesn't incap em all.

Argue that with the Jojo fans- in all seriousness proof of Toujou hitting something more intangible than normal intangible...? Ghosts in RotMG are just souls, I can pull Skuld and Septavius's Realm Eye entries for you

You mean the A/T section that is so ass cancer to read I'd rather read through the literal longest page on the wiki than read through it?

Using power absorption just gets Toujou possessed. VE's corruption and mind aren't things you want to be taking into yourself for any reason

Neat. Does it connect Toujou's mind to VE's? Cause that's basically just getting possessed by him.

Why would Toujou not summon these goddesses to him...?

Doesn't mean it removes the OG desire, love especially is just like, he'd destroy what he loves in a heartbeat

Toujou needs YAHOUCH amounts of blitz-worthy speed to pull VE's physical form from the Void and be capable of doing anything to him. That's how fast he poofs.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Could you, like, split up the quotes and replies somewhat like I do? It's always kinda hard to figure out which part you're responding to with which line.

Btw. to add one more thing not yet brought up: Karuna can turn on a fear aura that incapped a 100k strong army. So two people can play the passive incap game.

It incaps by basically putting them on Puppet strings, enough of a beating to the particularly willful(Esben the Unwilling is a very good example) can cause the individual to snap out of the corruption for a few seconds but VE can just override this manually if need be

You're being really vague as for what is being attacked here. If "puppet strings" is a mental thing than mental defenses work and everything I already said regarding it should apply. If it's body control then Karuna can still use his thought powers, which is plenty. If it's something else, then what is it actually?

I also want to add that Karuna has a supernatural skill to grant him unbreakable willpower. If getting beaten a little can snap you out, there is a decent chance Karuna can snap out via that.

It's agonizing to the original soul have two or more e souls in one body, need proof? On the quotes for his file again. Obviously the same thing that applies to a golem will apply to a normal guy

What's that about multiple souls? And, sure, it's agonizing for the original. Ok. But if they can scream from pain they are still the one that can decide to do that screaming. And Karuna can shut the pain off, so it's not the much of a problem.

I think you'd have to have proof of Toujou being able to turn into clears throat a "Spiritual Embodiment of Evil Itself" Aka, I don't think he has a race.

He can turn into angels and demons at least, which to be fair is not a spiritual embodiement. However, technically he only needs to do it well enough to get the resistance. Considering he can get divine powers from angel physiology, I think getting close enough to get the resistance shouldn't be impossible.

Good! Now can he move a universal distance before he just self-BFRs from the fight?

Is that the reply to the flying line? I'm confused.

Incapping the main body doesn't incap em all.

There are other bodies? The page mentions nothing of it, other than that he can possess a golem. Assuming he has them, which incapacitation methods haven't worked on the others? When it comes to stopping the mind it might be another issue, than physical incapacitation after all. Also, what should stop Karuna from just doing the same to all other bodies?

Argue that with the Jojo fans- in all seriousness proof of Toujou hitting something more intangible than normal intangible...? Ghosts in RotMG are just souls, I can pull Skuld and Septavius's Realm Eye entries for you

Depends on what you consider "more intangible", I guess. He can definitely cut things standard soul destruction techniques wouldn't work on, because... well, there is no soul.

What are you basing "more intangible than normal intangible" on again? I thought it was about there being made a difference between VE and a ghost. Which exact difference is made?

You mean the A/T section that is so ass cancer to read I'd rather read through the literal longest page on the wiki than read through it?

Don't see your problem with it? Also, strong stance for someone whose page doesn't even bother including a A/T section.

Using power absorption just gets Toujou possessed. VE's corruption and mind aren't things you want to be taking into yourself for any reason

? He's not absorbing his mind, he's absorbing his skills. And he could always turn them off if they bother him.

Neat. Does it connect Toujou's mind to VE's? Cause that's basically just getting possessed by him.

Don't think so. It's not the telepathy skill, after all.

Why would Toujou not summon these goddesses to him...?

Both can kinda summon each other. As for why he would go the other way here... because he has precog and hence knows whether or not his moves work in advance.

Doesn't mean it removes the OG desire, love especially is just like, he'd destroy what he loves in a heartbeat

I could argue further about it... but whatever. As said, he can just do any other control instead.

Toujou needs YAHOUCH amounts of blitz-worthy speed to pull VE's physical form from the Void and be capable of doing anything to him. That's how fast he poofs.

I mean, Karuna can make himself like a dozen times faster or so. But that isn't really the point. Karuna can slow, stop and reverse time as he likes. You can hardly poof so fast that someone that can essentially advance time frame-by-frame can't catch him.

In fact, Karuna could even surround the place with barriers that prevent teleportation first so that VE can't leave again.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Could you, like, split up the quotes and replies somewhat like I do? It's always kinda hard to figure out which part you're responding to with which line.

Btw. to add one more thing not yet brought up: Karuna can turn on a fear aura that incapped a 100k strong army. So two people can play the passive incap game.

You're being really vague as for what is being attacked here. If "puppet strings" is a mental thing than mental defenses work and everything I already said regarding it should apply. If it's body control then Karuna can still use his thought powers, which is plenty. If it's something else, then what is it actually?

I also want to add that Karuna has a supernatural skill to grant him unbreakable willpower. If getting beaten a little can snap you out, there is a decent chance Karuna can snap out via that.


What's that about multiple souls? And, sure, it's agonizing for the original. Ok. But if they can scream from pain they are still the one that can decide to do that screaming. And Karuna can shut the pain off, so it's not the much of a problem.


He can turn into angels and demons at least, which to be fair is not a spiritual embodiement. However, technically he only needs to do it well enough to get the resistance. Considering he can get divine powers from angel physiology, I think getting close enough to get the resistance shouldn't be impossible.


Is that the reply to the flying line? I'm confused.


There are other bodies? The page mentions nothing of it, other than that he can possess a golem. Assuming he has them, which incapacitation methods haven't worked on the others? When it comes to stopping the mind it might be another issue, than physical incapacitation after all. Also, what should stop Karuna from just doing the same to all other bodies?


Depends on what you consider "more intangible", I guess. He can definitely cut things standard soul destruction techniques wouldn't work on, because... well, there is no soul.

What are you basing "more intangible than normal intangible" on again? I thought it was about there being made a difference between VE and a ghost. Which exact difference is made?


Don't see your problem with it? Also, strong stance for someone whose page doesn't even bother including a A/T section.


? He's not absorbing his mind, he's absorbing his skills. And he could always turn them off if they bother him.


Don't think so. It's not the telepathy skill, after all.


Both can kinda summon each other. As for why he would go the other way here... because he has precog and hence knows whether or not his moves work in advance.

I could argue further about it... but whatever. As said, he can just do any other control instead.


I mean, Karuna can make himself like a dozen times faster or so. But that isn't really the point. Karuna can slow, stop and reverse time as he likes. You can hardly poof so fast that someone that can essentially advance time frame-by-frame can't catch him.

In fact, Karuna could even surround the place with barriers that prevent teleportation first so that VE can't leave again.

That is waaaaaaaaaay more effort than I am willing to put into debating, pain in the ass I say

so incon party if he just does that! yay!

I mean that it basically puts people under VE's control, mind and soul are effected mainly, some physical changes have occured as well, so there's that

like I said, VE can override this manually if he wants to.

"Forcing additional souls into a body which already possesses a living soul is considered highly taboo, as it inflicts intense pain upon the spirit within." ~ The Realm Eye You can be under incapping control and still scream ya know I assumed he could willpower GG the pain if VE possessed him anyway lol

I mean we've never seen a being like VE before or after his real introduction so I dunno honestly lol

Yes, The Void is Uni in range to explain a wee bit

The Marble Colossus, our old friend the Forgotten King, The Killer Bee Queen, the Golden Oryx Effigy, The Crystal Prisoner, Malus, Esben the Unwilling, and the Puppet Master, It's not mentioned on his page as it isn't really immortality moreso than it is just being there as well, like a shitty omnipresence. But what incap methods, well, just beating their ass till they die works, Esben is the only one who can very briefly break from the Entity's hold only to eventually be just overridden. Could take awhile to make it to each place unless he's just warped into their boss rooms or something

(Two things in one) VE in his astral projection state is more intangible then someone who can go intangible to attacks that can hit ghosts

I mean yeah, most A/T sections blow to read generally to be agonizing and the longer the section the more I'd rather rip my own brains out than read it lol

That's the issue, "I Absorb your corruption!" "Thank you that gives me a way easier time corrupting and possessing you" is basically what would happen

I mean, Telepathy usually connects minds in some way I'd say lol

Doesn't really help I'd say? not 100% on that frankly.

eh, sure.

Your going to need proof of Toujou keeping someone who quite literally cannot sustain his form anywhere but his home dimension outside of said dimension. "He is the spiritual embodiment of evil itself, but his raw form can only be sustained within the Void." ~ The Realm Eye

 

[DontTalkDT]

so incon party if he just does that! yay!

If VE doesn't defeat Karuna it loses due to BFR'ing itself.

I mean that it basically puts people under VE's control, mind and soul are effected mainly, some physical changes have occured as well, so there's that

So the a mental effect, that could be blocked via mental barriers, no?

like I said, VE can override this manually if he wants to.

No idea which part that is arguing against.

"Forcing additional souls into a body which already possesses a living soul is considered highly taboo, as it inflicts intense pain upon the spirit within." ~ The Realm Eye You can be under incapping control and still scream ya know I assumed he could willpower GG the pain if VE possessed him anyway lol

Maybe incapacitating to a normal person, but I doubt that if you can still scream that you are unable to think, which is all Karuna needs to do.

Yes, The Void is Uni in range to explain a wee bit

What argument was that adressed to?

The Marble Colossus, our old friend the Forgotten King, The Killer Bee Queen, the Golden Oryx Effigy, The Crystal Prisoner, Malus, Esben the Unwilling, and the Puppet Master, It's not mentioned on his page as it isn't really immortality moreso than it is just being there as well, like a shitty omnipresence. But what incap methods, well, just beating their ass till they die works, Esben is the only one who can very briefly break from the Entity's hold only to eventually be just overridden. Could take awhile to make it to each place unless he's just warped into their boss rooms or something

Karuna can just warp clones of him or send demons or something... he could also steal Esben's resistance skill to use for himself. Might be useful.

(Two things in one) VE in his astral projection state is more intangible then someone who can go intangible to attacks that can hit ghosts

And Karuna could cut phenomenon that likewise wouldn't get destroyed by just soul destroying attacks, sooooooo...

I mean yeah, most A/T sections blow to read generally to be agonizing and the longer the section the more I'd rather rip my own brains out than read it lol

Really? I would much rather read proper sentences than the walls of text people put into the P&A.

That's the issue, "I Absorb your corruption!" "Thank you that gives me a way easier time corrupting and possessing you" is basically what would happen

Karuna doesn't absorb corruption, Karuna steals the skill to corrupt. Think in terms of poison: He is not absorbing the poison, he steals the ability to produce poison.

I mean, Telepathy usually connects minds in some way I'd say lol

Yeah, but Telepathy is a whole other skill.

Doesn't really help I'd say? not 100% on that frankly.

What part is that about?

Your going to need proof of Toujou keeping someone who quite literally cannot sustain his form anywhere but his home dimension outside of said dimension. "He is the spiritual embodiment of evil itself, but his raw form can only be sustained within the Void." ~ The Realm Eye

Dude, it's time stop. I'm pretty sure you gonna need proof that VE can make anything happen at all in stopped time. The state of things not changing, is kinda what happens when time is stopped.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I really don't feel like debating bibles right now so I'll just address a few. Namely Time Stop, mental barriers, and Esben.

It's up to you to prove Toujou can magic so fast in succession it can catch someone who's form cannot be sustained to the point where it just disappears. If I was highballing I'd say it was 100% instant because tbh there's no evidence to it not be and evidence that is so.

Esben is literally human, and we don't know where his resistance comes from, just that he can break free if beaten on enough(which VE overrid eventually.)

Does he got soul barriers too? Corrupting the soul is just a debilitating as corrupting the mind in RotMG.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It's up to you to prove Toujou can magic so fast in succession it can catch someone who's form cannot be sustained to the point where it just disappears. If I was highballing I'd say it was 100% instant because tbh there's no evidence to it not be and evidence that is so.

Karuna can instantly cast spells (Chantless Extremity) and even multiple spells at once (Parallel Thinking Extremity). Although I still don't see how that would be necessary as, again, Karuna can reverse time. He missed the timing by 1 second? Cool, reverse time by 1 second and stop it then.

Esben is literally human, and we don't know where his resistance comes from, just that he can break free if beaten on enough(which VE overrid eventually.)

Ok, but if he can have it you would have pretty good reasons to say that the dude that has immense willpower, can steal skills, gain whatever knowledge he needs and produce virtually any magical object can't get it either.

Does he got soul barriers too? Corrupting the soul is just a debilitating as corrupting the mind in RotMG.

What would corrupting the soul do, if it does not corrupt the mind?

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm talking instant as in it'd seem like he was never there in the first place besides the crack

That's just the thing, we don't know how Esben resists VE's corruption, so how would Toujou know? He can't exactly get told.

It'd do the same thing as corrupting the mind, aka, instant incap.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm talking instant as in it'd seem like he was never there in the first place besides the crack

Yeah, I get it. But he was there at some point, so time magic can return time to the point in time he was there. Time Stop is practically the equivalent to having infinite speed. If you can slow down time to that degree, then managing that isn't

That's just the thing, we don't know how Esben resists VE's corruption, so how would Toujou know? He can't exactly get told.

I mean, Esben is part of the fight in my understanding due to the immortality thing not mentioned anywhere on the page. So Karuna could get it from Esben via, for example, appraisal, which can tell him everything about Esben's attributes and his abilities or, if necessary, also look at his memories.

It'd do the same thing as corrupting the mind, aka, instant incap.

So you're saying it puts Karuna under VE's control, but without controlling his mind? That doesn't make much sense. Heck, if Karuna's mind still functions he could always reverse the corruption effect via inversion extremity.