Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki downgrade

[DuDE01010]

Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki are rated as 5C and FTL, but I believe both haven’t displayed anything close to that. The justifications made are also not solid, with multiple scaling inconsistencies by them being that strong and that fast.

Kinshiki:

1. Fought and matched Sasuke Uchiha (from his page)

• Fighting Sasuke isn't enough justification for him to be 5C especially due to his performance against the kage as well as his later performance against Sasuke in the chunin exams (discussed below).
• All kinshiki did was match him while Sasuke parried. At no point was Sasuke shown to be struggling or hurt and at no point did he feel the need to use his jutsu (chidori, fire style etc) or susanoo.

2. Took hits from Sasuke (from his page)

• Sasuke cuts Kinshiki's horn
• Kinshiki survived Sasuke's chidori in their final battle, however its clear that they wanted to capture Kinshiki instead of killling him, Otherwise they would have killed him here. Naruto and Sasuke have both shown to weaken their attacks if they want intel e.g Shin and delta.

Anti feats

1. While Kinshiki matched Sasuke when he was introduced, in their rematch Sasuke was casually evading Kinshiki’s strikes. This was done without his sharingan being active while also carrying Sarada. (This scene was extended in the anime).

2. Chojuro was able to parry and dodge his attacks and the only reason Chojuro got cut was because he was backed into the root of the god tree and didn't have the room to evade. (Extended in the anime)

3. Chojuro later went on to pearce Kinshiki. If Kinshiki was truly 5C and FTL he would have easily been able to blitz and slice through Chojuro, who’s 7A and MHS+ (scaled off Gaara and Darui’s pages)

4. Kurotsuchi was able to send kinshiki flying. He was also not fast enough to evade her despite kinshiki being rated FTL while kurotsuki is MHS+ (scaling off Darui and Gaara).

5. Kurotsuchi later went off to restrain Kinshiki with her jutsu and he only broke free because Momoshiki forced him out and turned him into a fruit .

6.Kinshiki was stopped mid swing by Shikamaru’s shadow possession and was unable to move.

Proposed rating

AP: 6C (stronger than the 7A kage and shouldn't be different from his durability)
Durability: 6C (no sold Hachibi’s bijuu dama that was enhanced 2x)
Speed: MHS+ (kept up with the kages)

Base Momoshiki

1. Broke through Six Paths Kurama Mode Naruto's shield, knocking him unconscious in the process (from his page)

• Momoshiki has an ability to absorb jutsu, multiply its power and send it back, so being able to break Naruto's shield and knock him unconscious doesn't matter since Momoshiki, on his own, can't replicate those jutsu as they don't belong to him.
• Knocking Naruto unconscious shouldn't even matter as Naruto knocked himself out by exhausting himself trying to contain a bijudama, from blowing up konoha, inside of a small stadium sized space.
• There is also a statement from Sasuke stating that Naruto's bijuu dama can easily blow Momoshiki's away, so unless Naruto’s bijuudama is massively superior to his durability, it makes no sense to why its justification for 5C Momoshiki.

2. Stated he will punish Kaguya

• Base Momoshiki stated he will punish Kaguya, implying he was stronger than her, however this doesn't matter since Momoshiki only knew Kaguya before she came to Earth, ate a shinju fruit and merged with the shijuu tree, so he only knew ‘base’ Kaguya and not Prime kaguya.

3. Scaling from kinshiki

• Already debunked

Anti feats

1. Darui was able to keep up with momoshiki and fight him (Darui is MHS+) while all Momoshiki could do was dodge and parry instead of using his apparent 5C jutsu that can break Kurama Mode’s shield. He was also running away.

2. Gaara's sand was faster than Momoshiki in the anime (sand is MHS+)

3. Restrained by Shikamaru's shadow and had to absorb it to escape.

• He was completely restrained btw (backed up also by kinshiki, a close equal to Momoshiki, being stopped mid swing) before an argument is made that he only absorbed the shadow so he could have another jutsu.

Proposed rating
AP: 6C (restrained Hachibi) stronger with jutsu absorption (can increase the power of his absorbed jutsu and break through Six Paths Kurama Mode Naruto's shield)
Durability: 6C (no sold Hachibi’s bijuu dama that was enhanced two fold)
Speed: MHS+ (kept up with the kages)

 

[Planck69]

This.......oddly makes sense to me.

 

[Slacjow]

1. While Kinshiki matched Sasuke when he was introduced, in their rematch Sasuke was casually evading Kinshiki’s strikes. This was done without his sharingan being active while also carrying Sarada. (This scene was extended in the anime).

This is not an anti feat.

2. Chojuro was able to parry and dodge his attacks and the only reason Chojuro got cut was because he was backed into the root of the god tree and didn't have the room to evade. (Extended in the anime)

Chojuro didn't parry anything, Kinshiki was the one that hit his sword.

3. Chojuro later went on to pearce Kinshiki. If Kinshiki was truly 5C and FTL he would have easily been able to blitz and slice through Chojuro, who’s 7A and MHS+ (scaled off Gaara and Darui’s pages)

This is like, the only anti feat out there, and it was done by the sword's needls, not Chojuro himself.

4. Kurotsuchi was able to send kinshiki flying. He was also not fast enough to evade her despite kinshiki being rated FTL while kurotsuki is MHS+ (scaling off Darui and Gaara).

Kurotsuchi sent him flying without dealing any damage, and she caught him off guard appearing out of nowhere.

5. Kurotsuchi later went off to restrain Kinshiki with her jutsu and he only broke free because Momoshiki forced him out and turned him into a fruit .

She restrained him because Hiramikarei's needles displaced his bones and disrupt chakra pathway system, even though it was stated only in the novel I believe.

6.Kinshiki was stopped mid swing by Shikamaru’s shadow possession and was unable to move.

That says more about Shikamaru's Shadows being strong then Kinshiki being weak.

Knocking Naruto unconscious shouldn't even matter as Naruto knocked himself out by exhausting himself trying to contain a bijudama, from blowing up konoha, inside of a small stadium sized space.

And prior to that Momoshiki pierced Majestic Attire with Lightning.

There is also a statement from Sasuke stating that Naruto's bijuu dama can easily blow Momoshiki's away, so unless Naruto’s bijuudama is massively superior to his durability, it makes no sense to why its justification for 5C Momoshiki.

Easily be blow away by Naruto's own Bijuu Dama, he can create one of the same size and push those into the sky.

1. Darui was able to keep up with momoshiki and fight him (Darui is MHS+) while all Momoshiki could do was dodge and parry instead of using his apparent 5C jutsu that can break Kurama Mode’s shield. He was also running away.

He is "Uknown" physically, he wasn't running away, he was moving, because apparently they were fighting. And Kage also had Naruto/Sasuke there.

While I don't care about Kinshiki, Momoshiki will stay as he is. I won't be replying here anymore.

 

[DuDE01010]

This is not an anti feat.

Why is it not? A Sharingan less Sasuke, while carrying someone, was easily dodging Kinshiki despite him being able to keep up earlier.

Chojuro didn't parry anything, Kinshiki was the one that hit his sword.

Upon second viewing I agree. It however still doesn't change the fact that a MHS+ character was evading an apparent FTL.

This is like, the only anti feat out there, and it was done by the sword's needls, not Chojuro himself.

That still applies does it not? I don't recall Chojuro having 5C ninjutsu.

Kurotsuchi sent him flying without dealing any damage, and she caught him off guard appearing out of nowhere.

A 7A still sent a 5C flying. and the no damage part can be attributed to the fact that Kinshiki's is atleast 6C through Hachibi scaling.

She restrained him because Hiramikarei's needles displaced his bones and disrupt chakra pathway system, even though it was stated only in the novel I believe.

I don't believe the movie novel is accepted here? Unless i'm mistaken?

That says more about Shikamaru's Shadows being strong then Kinshiki being weak.

I don't recall Shikamaru having 5C AP.

And prior to that Momoshiki pierced Majestic Attire with Lightning.

With jutsu he absorbed. I've proposed stronger via jutsu absorption.

Easily be blow away by Naruto's own Bijuu Dama, he can create one of the same size and push those into the sky.

Sorry I don't understand this point.

He is "Uknown" physically, he wasn't running away, he was moving, because apparently they were fighting. And Kage also had Naruto/Sasuke there.

He was very clearly running away. Why was he moving away from the kage when he can use his 5C jutsu?

Also Naruto and Boruto were having a conversation while Sasuke was with Chojuro and Kurotsuchi, so Darui and Gaara were fighting Momoshiki atleast for a short amount of time before they joined in. Plenty of time for a 5C and FTL character to kill 2 7A and MHS+ characters, instead of moving.

 

[RanaProGamer]

There are some of the issues with your reasoning:

1.

Kinshiki:

1. Fought and matched Sasuke Uchiha (from his page)

• Fighting Sasuke isn't enough justification for him to be 5C especially due to his performance against the kage as well as his later performance against Sasuke in the chunin exams (discussed below).
• All kinshiki did was match him while Sasuke parried. At no point was Sasuke shown to be struggling or hurt and at no point did he feel the need to use his jutsu (chidori, fire style etc) or susanoo.

Using the Kages as anti-feat doesn't work, especially since the Kage doesn't have any anti-feats of their own. It would just mean that the current Kage (at the very least this Jutsu) are that much stronger. Also, Sasuke was literally forced to use his Rinnegan to switch places with a statue to avoid taking a hit from Kinshiki. So that's both a speed and AP feat for Kinshiki. Not forget to mention that Sasuke literally started getting exhausted from continuing to fight Kinshiki.

2. Took hits from Sasuke (from his page)

• Sasuke cuts Kinshiki's horn
• Kinshiki survived Sasuke's chidori in their final battle, however its clear that they wanted to capture Kinshiki instead of killling him, Otherwise they would have killed him here. Naruto and Sasuke have both shown to weaken their attacks if they want intel e.g Shin and delta.

You do realize they only could've killed him after damaging and sealing him, doesn't take away that Kinshiki in his best shape survived a Chidori.

Anti feats


1. While Kinshiki matched Sasuke when he was introduced, in their rematch Sasuke was casually evading Kinshiki’s strikes. This was done without his sharingan being active while also carrying Sarada. (This scene was extended in the anime).

2. Chojuro was able to parry and dodge his attacks and the only reason Chojuro got cut was because he was backed into the root of the god tree and didn't have the room to evade. (Extended in the anime)

3. Chojuro later went on to pearce Kinshiki. If Kinshiki was truly 5C and FTL he would have easily been able to blitz and slice through Chojuro, who’s 7A and MHS+ (scaled off Gaara and Darui’s pages)

4. Kurotsuchi was able to send kinshiki flying. He was also not fast enough to evade her despite kinshiki being rated FTL while kurotsuki is MHS+ (scaling off Darui and Gaara).

5. Kurotsuchi later went off to restrain Kinshiki with her jutsu and he only broke free because Momoshiki forced him out and turned him into a fruit .

6.Kinshiki was stopped mid swing by Shikamaru’s shadow possession and was unable to move.

1. They both consistently evade each other's attacks. Like how Kinshiki evaded getting stabbed by a kunai from Sasuke in their fight. Hell, the second instance you mentioned even required Shikamaru to stop Kinshiki from attacking Sasuke cuz Sasuke couldn't keep dodging.

2. Choujoru didn't parry any of his attacks.

3. That would just mean that Chojuro's ninjutsu can harm Kinshiki as there is no anti-feat for Chojuro's ninjutsu.

4. Kinshiki sent Sasuke flying and even through boulders despite Sasuke blocking. Kinshiki, on the other hand, had his guard and still didn't show any sign of damage. It's like you said, it doesn't mean anything if no damage was visible.

5. Again, just means that the Kage ninjutsu scale to that level.

6. The same Shikamaru who restrained all the 5 Kage in one of the novels which even Naruto struggled with.

Anti feats

1. Darui was able to keep up with momoshiki and fight him (Darui is MHS+) while all Momoshiki could do was dodge and parry instead of using his apparent 5C jutsu that can break Kurama Mode’s shield. He was also running away.

2. Gaara's sand was faster than Momoshiki in the anime (sand is MHS+)

3. Restrained by Shikamaru's shadow and had to absorb it to escape.

• He was completely restrained btw (backed up also by kinshiki, a close equal to Momoshiki, being stopped mid swing) before an argument is made that he only absorbed the shadow so he could have another jutsu.

1. No anti-feats that suggest that New Era Darui can't keep up with the God Tiers.

2. Again, New Era Gaara has no anti-feats of not scaling to Momoshiki in speed.

3. Already explained how Shikamura's shadow was able to restrain all the 5 Kage including base Naruto. Also yes, absorbing weaker ninjutsu is completely in character for him.

 

[Damage3245]

Using the Kages as anti-feat doesn't work, especially since the Kage doesn't have any anti-feats of their own. It would just mean that the current Kage (at the very least this Jutsu) are that much stronger.

It seems more reasonable to me that Momoshiki and Kinshiki could be weaker than we think they are, than every Kage randomly became Sage of Six Paths level over time.

 

[RanaProGamer]

It seems more reasonable to me that Momoshiki and Kinshiki could be weaker than we think they are, than every Kage randomly became Sage of Six Paths level over time.

It isn't random though, characters getting astronomically stronger over a big-time period is something that has happened in many verses. Also, I was more so referring to the ninjutsu side of things, especially since you even have cases of Hashirama being High 7-A physically with 6-A+ ninjutsu. But like I said unless the character's ninjutsu themselves don't have any anti-feats and is shown being consistent that strong, them being around those levels is pretty normal.

 

[Planck69]

In those verses though, there's usually something alluding to growth in the plot itself, no matter how nonsensical. Here they just jump tiers.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm scared that this makes sense.

Also, I was more so referring to the ninjutsu side of things, especially since you even have cases of Hashirama being High 7-A physically with 6-A+ ninjutsu. But like I said unless the character's ninjutsu themselves don't have any anti-feats and is shown being consistent that strong, them being around those levels is pretty normal.

Kurotsuchi sent Kinshiki flying with a rock punch and Chojuro used strictly sword swings, so ehhh.

And Chojuro and Kurotsuchi have a bunch of antifeats (like getting hurt by clowns that Boruto and Mitsuki beat, The Seven Garbo Swordsman and Cu respectively).

 

[RanaProGamer]

In those verses though, there's usually something alluding to growth in the plot itself, no matter how nonsensical. Here they just jump tiers.

Yet there are statements of the Kage and the shinobi training to face Otsutsuki level threats during the time skip. Also, characters do jump tiers in other verses as well.

 

[RanaProGamer]

I'm scared that this makes sense.


Kurotsuchi sent Kinshiki flying with a rock punch and Chojuro used strictly sword swings, so ehhh.

And Chojuro and Kurotsuchi have a bunch of antifeats (like getting hurt by clowns that Boruto and Mitsuki beat, The Seven Garbo Swordsman and Cu respectively).

Oh, none of those are anti-feats surprisingly. Chojuro purposely let himself take damage to teach the Seven Garbo Swordsman the meaning of getting cut. And if anything, him taking damage does nothing to disprove his ninjutsu AP, especially since he was using a fodder sword. And Kurotsuchi never lost to Ku or the clowns, she got emotionally clouded and lost the will to fight when Ku revealed himself. And even in the flashback, she killed the clowns easily when not emotionally clouded.

 

[KingTempest]

Oh, none of those are anti-feats surprisingly. Chojuro purposely let himself take damage to teach the Seven Garbo Swordsman the meaning of getting cut. And if anything, him taking damage does nothing to disprove his ninjutsu AP, especially since he was using a fodder sword. And Kurotsuchi never lost to Ku or the clowns, she got emotionally clouded and lost the will to fight when Ku revealed himself. And even in the flashback, she killed the clowns easily when not emotionally clouded.

Fair.

I'm neutral on all of this. Interested to see how it turns out.

 

[Kin201]

The new Kage is bijuu level at best. Either Madara or Hashirama can solo them. Except Naruto.

 

[Planck69]

Yet there are statements of the Kage and the shinobi training to face Otsutsuki level threats during the time skip. Also, characters do jump tiers in other verses as well.

I will point out that this just means those verses should be looked at as well.

As for the statements, fair enough though I'm not sure if they're enough. I'll just wait and see how this goes.

 

[Damage3245]

I'd love to know how one trains for an "Otsutsuki threat".

I wonder if the average Jonin is 10-Tails level now with this godly training method.

 

[DuDE01010]

Using the Kages as anti-feat doesn't work, especially since the Kage doesn't have any anti-feats of their own. It would just mean that the current Kage (at the very least this Jutsu) are that much stronger.

That's not how it works. Kinshiki and Momoshiki are unknown characters with few and wonky feats. Evidence have to be provided that kages who are 7A/MHS+ are now all of a sudden 5C/FTL out of nowhere.

Naruto and Sasuke even with Kurama and EMS were not 5C/FTL. They needed powers handed by Hagoromo to be that strong. Obito and Madara had to become Juubi Jins to be that strong, but now Chojuro is all of a sudden 5C/FTL and on the level of other god tiers?

Scaling worked like that. Shin Uchiha, Sakura etc would be 5C

Also, Sasuke was literally forced to use his Rinnegan to switch places with a statue to avoid taking a hit from Kinshiki. So that's both a speed and AP feat for Kinshiki.

Substitution* and this would be disregarded due to the kage anti feats.

Not forget to mention that Sasuke literally started getting exhausted from continuing to fight Kinshiki.

Sasuke retreated, wasn't exhausted. This isn't the look of an exhausted man.

You do realize they only could've killed him after damaging and sealing him, doesn't take away that Kinshiki in his best shape survived a Chidori.

And they didn't, showing they wanted him alive.

1. They both consistently evade each other's attacks. Like how Kinshiki evaded getting stabbed by a kunai from Sasuke in their fight. Hell, the second instance you mentioned even required Shikamaru to stop Kinshiki from attacking Sasuke cuz Sasuke couldn't keep dodging.

First fight is the only positive feat for kinshiki among many more negatives.

2. Choujoru didn't parry any of his attacks.

I've already conceded this point above

That would just mean that Chojuro's ninjutsu can harm Kinshiki as there is no anti-feat for Chojuro's ninjutsu.

Already discussed above.

5. Again, just means that the Kage ninjutsu scale to that level.

Discussed above.

The same Shikamaru who restrained all the 5 Kage in one of the novels which even Naruto struggled with.

The kages are 7A. This feat would put Shikamaru at 6C through my proposed rating.

Naruto is rated as unknown and his base can become stronger by borrowing chakra from Kurama. The novel even mentions only Naruto can escape because he's got Kurama.

1. No anti-feats that suggest that New Era Darui can't keep up with the God Tiers.

2. Again, New Era Gaara has no anti-feats of not scaling to Momoshiki in speed.

Above

3. Already explained how Shikamura's shadow was able to restrain all the 5 Kage including base Naruto. Also yes, absorbing weaker ninjutsu is completely in character for him.

Being in character doesn't mean he could have without it since Kinshiki, a close peer, was retrained mid swing.

The new gen kages are rated as 7A and MHS+ and i'm using their rating as justification for the downgrade. If there is an issue then a CRT can be made for 5C and FTL kages.

Once again Naruto with Kurama and Sasuke with EMS were not 5C/FTL.
Madara and obito had to become juubi jins to become 5C/FTL.
Naruto and Sasuke had to be given SPSM + other biju and rinnegan to become 5C/FTL.

Just because time has passed and there are no anti feats for the kages (people in verse who are not treated as gods), doesn't mean there are now all of a sudden god tiers and have been six paths level, despite not having displayed any sort of powerups. No amount of training makes a person 5C/FTL, they made this very clear when Might Guy, the one who trains the most and the hardest, couldn't even beat Madara, who wasn't even 5C at that point. Further proof is shown in Boruto where you have to use cybernetics to even be in that level.

 

[RanaProGamer]

I'd love to know how one trains for an "Otsutsuki threat".

I wonder if the average Jonin is 10-Tails level now with this godly training method.

cough cough Might Guy cough cough

In all seriousness though, it's not on me to explain what training they went through to able to perform ninjutsu that counters Otsutsuki level threat. You have other novel statements of Kakashi coming up with Purple Lightning which impressed even the Kage. So what is there to say that the current Kage didn't get stronger ninjutsu?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Agreed. Also, quotes from the movie's novelization (which covers some of the fight off-screen) that shows that Momoshiki and Kinshiki were struggling against Kage-level opponents:

Spoiler: Base Madara would eat them alive

Taking advantage of the sand, Choujuurou, Kurotsuchi, and Darui used the sand as footholds and soared.

“Haah!”

Choujuurou and Kurotsuchi launched an attack.

“You impudent ones!”

Kinshiki expanded his giant axe, and counter-attacked. Kurotsuchi and Choujuurou nimbly evaded him.

From the beginning, the two were a diversion.

Without the words even being said, they’d understood that and taken action.

Gaara’s sand was stretching towards Momoshiki’s feet. Momoshiki leapt up, avoiding the sand by a hair’s breadth. But up in the sky, Darui was lying in wait.

“How to say this?” Darui said. “You’ll get destroyed at this rate, yknow.”

Darui used his muscles as a bullet of mass and swooped down on Momoshiki. Momoshiki evaded this attack, as well, however this too was only a diversion. Gaara with his Absolute Defence of sand was approaching from behind them!

“Don’t think that you can run away from us.” he said.

“You low-grade beings!”

The swing of Momoshiki’s blade was stopped and caught by Gaara’s blade of sand.

---

Kinshiki’s giant axe swung downwards, and its blade cut Choujuurou’s chest. Choujuurou stumbled, his blood spraying.

“You’re cornered now.” Kinshiki said.

“Shouldn’t that be referring to yourself?” Choujuurou was grinning like a shark.

Kurotsuchi burst out from the ground underneath them, attacking Kinshiki’s chest.

“Impudent-!” Kinshiki flew backwards.

Behind him was Sasuke. The sharingan in his right eye had been activated. He was deadly serious.

Sasuke used a chidori with no distance between them.

Nobody could follow those movements.

“Gugh!”

Kinshiki deflected the chidori with his battle axe, but the might of the attack was so great his axe couldn’t withstand it, and crumbled.

At that moment, Choujuurou leapt down from the sky. He held an enormous sword in his hand. The whole group was displaying stunningly vibrant cooperation.

“Spineless mongrels!”

In the air, Choujuurou took his beloved sword, Hiramekarei, and detached it so it divided into two swords. The chakra that gathered between them pierced Kinshiki like glowing kunai.

The art of wielding swords was Kirigakure’s speciality.

“Guagh!”

Blood spurted out from all over Kinshiki’s body. The chakra needles that had spurted out from hiramekarei disrupted his chakra channels. It was a shinobi killing technique unique to Kirigakura that, while it wouldn’t kill instantly, would slowly bring death.

But, that was as far as he could go. Choujuurou fell to his knees because of the bleeding he’d suffered from his wound. For a while, it’d be best for him not to move.

As expected, this Kinshiki was no ordinary opponent.

“Tsuchikage!”

“Leave it to me!”

At Sasuke’s signal, Kurotsuchi spat out caustic lime from her mouth.

Lava Release: Ashstone*** Seal!

“Gu- Gughugh....”

“I’ve restrained this guy!” Kurotsuchi yelled, “Sasuke, you and the Seventh act!” Sasuke nodded and began to run.

Momoshiki was standing his ground against his two opponents Darui and Gaara. He gatheres his chakra into a rod¬ like shape and defended against all the attacks from Darui’s brute strength to Gaara’s shaep-shifting sand, without letting the slightest opening be breached.

You could call him an expert of the highest class.

“We kept you waiting!” A man yelled.

As expected, the one who would break the equilibrium of this fight was going to be Naruto as usual. He was always a man of the element of surprise.

He hit Momoshiki from the side with an elbow strike and made him stumble

Next he’d make a seal and use a close range attack-or at least that was his intention, however Sasuke inhibited him.

“Naruto, don’t use Ninjutsu against him!”

Of course, Sasuke didn’t just stop Naruto. At the same time, he went around behind Momoshiki and readied a kunai.

Momoshiki turned around in mid-air, intending to fell down Sasuke with one large sweep of his sword, but in Sasuke’s place there was the chakra pillar that Naruto had been restrained to.

It was the Body Replacement jutsu.

It was a bit cliche, but it was an effective technique.

Sasuke appeared from within another shadow.

“You can only release jutsu that you’ve sucked up...right?” He said, “It’s the same trickery as the Scientific Ninja Tool Division’s toy.”

“In that case, we should mainly use Taijutsu and not let you suck up any jutsu.” Darui said.

Gaara continued as he expanded his sand and took control of the air space. “It’s the same as Kaguya, huh.”

In that case, it was a shame they hadn’t brought Rock Lee with them, but, well, it wasn’t bad to show off his taijutsu every now and then.

The four of them were explaining the situation in loud voices so that they could grab Momoshiki’s attention and surround him.

Vexedly, the ogre bit his bottom lip.

“Momoshiki-sama!”

Even though his whole body had been cut up by hiramekarei, Kinshiki forcefully started breaking out of Kurotsuchi’s restraints.

Chakra overflowed from his entire body, and his muscles swelled up.

“Haa!” Kinshiki gave a battle cry as he broke from his restrains and blew back Kurotsuchi. But, Kurotsuchi hadn’t just been thrown back. She’d thrown all the kunai she had on her to hit Kinshiki’s vitals.

She wasn’t a woman who was called the Tsuchikage just for show.

“Guugh...!”

“Haa...Haaa...”

Kinshiki’s remaining stamina was too precious to put an end to the woman who’d tumbled down in front of his eyes. Hiramekarei and the Ashstone seal that had followed it, they’d destroyed most of Kinshiki’s body.

As one would expect.. .from the skilled ones of this world.. .I suppose I only have a few minutes left...

Kinshiki understood that the time had come.

He was calmer than he’d thought he’d be.

If he did this, then he’d have succeeded in doing his duty.

His final service.

Momoshiki was cornered.

He could say that he’d fought well against his opponents, Naruto, Sasuke, Gaara, and Darui.

However, the root of his power existed in absorbing the jutsu of others. Taijutsu wasn’t something that could be externally released, so it also wasn’t something that could be sucked in.

Unfortunately, the four in front of him were shinobi who were extremely first class in taijutsu as well as everything else.

Nngh...

His blood was flowing.

Most humans experienced it, but it was the first time since Momoshiki was born that he had come to a point where he was resigned to death.

A huge spear flew in from outside the circle of opponents.

“Gah!”

Darui, who missed avoiding it, got thrown back holding his shoulder.

And on top of that, a battle axe appeared.

Gaara’s shield of sand was able stop its attack, but because he couldn’t cut off the shockwave, he got thrown back. While he may have been the Absolute Defence, he couldn’t convert kinetic energy to zero.

“Naruto!” Sasuke yelled.

Kinshiki, soaked in blood had appeared with a battle cry.

The look on his face was that of a man ready for death.

Naruto’s Rasengan and Sasuke’s Susanoo pierced him.

And even so, Kinshiki didn’t stop.

“GUUUUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!” Kinshiki yelled.

He wrung out every single ounce of chakra in his body and brought out countless weapons.

In the face of his fierce torrent of attacks, even Naruto who’d united with Kurama and Sasuke who’d started operating Susanoo, were both thrown back with a single blow.

This was surely...

This storm of attacks could only be held by those who had decided on death.

Better yet, the fact that not one of Naruto and the others had died in the face of such a series of attacks was undoubtedly proof of their rare prodigy.

And Kinshiki himself understood that was no longer able to kill them with his own attacks.

The two ogres had been too contemptuous towards the world of ninja that had overthrown Ootsutsuki Kaguya.

“Kinshiki."

The flame of Kinshiki’s life was in a trodden down state in front of the injured Momoshiki.

However, Kinshiki’s expression was peaceful.

That was because this was the law in their clan.

“Come now...Momoshiki-sama.” Kinshiki said. “It looks like the time has come for you to eat my chakra as well...” Momoshiki was staring at him.

There was nothing else he could do.

“It is my duty as your parental role.” Kinshiki guided Momoshiki just as he had done in the past. “The only thing I can pass onto you is power...Do not hesitate.”

Coincidently, Gaara was helping a rested Sasuke fight Urashiki in the cursed Boruto anime arc.

I know that there will be objections that 'Sasuke deemed Momoshiki a greater threat than Kaguya'. But that is just a theory Sasuke had based on some thousand years old scroll (before Kaguya absorbed the Ten Tails and probably before she ate a Chakra Fruit). It is entirely plausible that Kaguya was paranoid and overcautious, and was preparing for stronger Otsutsuki than Kinshiki.

 

[RanaProGamer]

That's not how it works. Kinshiki and Momoshiki are unknown characters with few and wonky feats. Evidence have to be provided that kages who are 7A/MHS+ are now all of a sudden 5C/FTL out of nowhere.

They aren't 5-C out of nowhere if there are statements that suggest that the Kages have trained. I've also proved why it's only their speed and ninjutsu AP that scale that high. It would be on you to prove that the New Era Kages have anti-feats that prevents them from being on those levels. I've already proved it in one of my previous arguments on why their ninjutsu AP and speed being that high is consistent.

Naruto and Sasuke even with Kurama and EMS were not 5C/FTL. They needed powers handed by Hagoromo to be that strong. Obito and Madara had to become Juubi Jins to be that strong, but now Chojuro is all of a sudden 5C/FTL and on the level of other god tiers?

Yet you have Might Guy who had no SOSP powers and nearly killed Juubi Madara. Or the fact that 7th Gate Rock Lee threw a kunai knife faster than Guy and Juubi Madara. Characters can be this fast without SOSP chakra.

Scaling worked like that. Shin Uchiha, Sakura etc would be 5C

No, it wouldn't. Also why?

Substitution* and this would be disregarded due to the kage anti feats.

Already proved that the Kage has speed and ninjutsu are on those level.

Sasuke retreated, wasn't exhausted. This isn't the look of an exhausted man.

And just a few seconds after that screenshot you sent, Kinshiki charges at Sasuke again, where Sasuke nearly falls unconscious after dodging Kinshiki's attack, that is clear exhaustion.

And they didn't, showing they wanted him alive.

Again, that's referring to the Kinshiki who is pinned and injured.

First fight is the only positive feat for kinshiki among many more negatives.

The negatives don't even exist. I've already explained every anti-feat you brought up.

The kages are 7A. This feat would put Shikamaru at 6C through my proposed rating.

Naruto is rated as unknown and his base can become stronger by borrowing chakra from Kurama. The novel even mentions only Naruto can escape because he's got Kurama.

Yes, they are 7-A, but only physically. Also, Naruto having to use Kurama's chakra only acts as a supporting feat for Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis being that high.

Being in character doesn't mean he could have without it since Kinshiki, a close peer, was retrained mid swing.

So that just means Momoshiki is stronger than Kinshiki.

The new gen kages are rated as 7A and MHS+ and i'm using their rating as justification for the downgrade. If there is an issue then a CRT can be made for 5C and FTL kages.

I know what they are rated, I'm proposing an upgrade for the Kage. Also, what would be the point of downgrading if a separate CRT put Kinshiki and Momoshiki back there anyway?

Once again Naruto with Kurama and Sasuke with EMS were not 5C/FTL.
Madara and obito had to become juubi jins to become 5C/FTL.
Naruto and Sasuke had to be given SPSM + other biju and rinnegan to become 5C/FTL.

Again, look at my Might Guy example. Nothing suggests that you need SOSP chakra to be on those levels.

Just because time has passed and there are no anti feats for the kages (people in verse who are not treated as gods), doesn't mean there are now all of a sudden god tiers and have been six paths level, despite not having displayed any sort of powerups.

Powerups are not necessary to prove characters have gotten stronger. They showcased ninjutsu that harmed Kinshiki and there are no anti feats for it, the Kakashi novel has statements of the Kage developing new ninjutsu. Which is exactly what I proposed is that got stronger.

 

[Damage3245]

Again, look at my Might Guy example. Nothing suggests that you need SOSP chakra to be on those levels.

If the Kages had activated all eight of the Eight Gates, I doubt there'd be any confusion as to why they're keeping up with supposedly 5-C characters.

 

[Kin201]

They aren't 5-C out of nowhere if there are statements that suggest that the Kages have trained. I've also proved why it's only their speed and ninjutsu AP that scale that high. It would be on you to prove that the New Era Kages have anti-feats that prevents them from being on those levels. I've already proved it in one of my previous arguments on why their ninjutsu AP and speed being that high is consistent.

I don't think they could train their jutsu to the point that it makes Madara's Susanoo and Hashirama's Wood Style look like a joke.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Agreed. Also, quotes from the movie's novelization (which covers some of the fight off-screen) that shows that Momoshiki and Kinshiki were struggling against Kage-level opponents:

I know that there will be objections that 'Sasuke deemed Momoshiki a greater threat than Kaguya'. But that is just a theory Sasuke had based on some thousand years old scroll (before Kaguya absorbed the Ten Tails and probably before she ate a Chakra Fruit). It is entirely plausible that Kaguya was paranoid and overcautious, and was preparing for stronger Otsutsuki than Kinshiki.

That would be true, but remember that the theory statement was only presented when the scroll had barely been decoded. Sasuke literally says that his theory has been proven as soon as it finished decoding. The manga one-ups this with Sasuke learning both the names of Momoshiki and Kinshiki through the scrolls.

Also, the same novel you presented had these 2 statements.


10/22




The figure of Uchiha Sasuke, the extraordinary shinobi, was clearly visible.

“Sakura, please look after these two.” Sasuke said as he landed, turning to glare at the ogres. “...That’s the enemy.
Those things I found out about with Kaguya’s scroll, they’re our enemy!”


Sasuke took his Susanoo sword in hand, and charged towards the giant ogre. It was the same male he’d failed to
kill at the castle.

“UOOOOOOOOH!” He swung his huge sword down. He held conviction that the weight and the speed would ensure
a kill no matter the timing.

However, his opponent wasn’t an ordinary person either.

“I won’t let you break my horn again!”

Swish!

With frightening speed, the giant took out his ace’s blade and repelled Sasuke’s blow.


as well as this


13/22


“It looks like the reason Kaguya was gathering White Zetsu soldiers was so she could fight against them...”

In other words, they were enemies who even Kaguya wouldn’t have been able to oppose without an army.

This was the worst possible development.

For Momoshiki up in the sky, the ninja down below had nothing to do with him. For him, this whole business was just
a miscellaneous task.


Notice how the lines,
In other words, they were enemies who even Kaguya wouldn’t have been able to oppose without an army.
and
This was the worst possible development.
Are not having any quotations, meaning this is something that the story itself is telling us.

Though I'm not sure why you brought up the novel, we don't even use it.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah no

That would be true, but remember that the theory statement was only presented when the scroll had barely been decoded. Sasuke literally says that his theory has been proven as soon as it finished decoding. The manga one-ups this with Sasuke learning both the names of Momoshiki and Kinshiki through the scrolls.

Sasuke made that theory before he even found the scroll.

The scroll said that Momo and Kinshiki were coming to earth for the chakra fruit, not that they were superior to Kaguya.

 

[RanaProGamer]

If the Kages had activated all eight of the Eight Gates, I doubt there'd be any confusion as to why they're keeping up with supposedly 5-C characters.

Why is it suddenly being restricted to 8 Gates? We're talking about ninjutsu here. It's just an example that I brought up, hell Might Duy doesn't even reach the levels of the God Tiers even with the 8th Gate. All I'm saying is that characters have shown the capability to reach those levels, whether it be physically or with ninjutsu.

 

[RanaProGamer]

I don't think they could train their jutsu to the point that it makes Madara's Susanoo and Hashirama's Wood Style look like a joke.

With the feats and scaling that has been presented, that isn't really an argument.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Notice how the lines,
In other words, they were enemies who even Kaguya wouldn’t have been able to oppose without an army.
and
This was the worst possible development.
Are not having any quotations, meaning this is something that the story itself is telling us.

Though I'm not sure why you brought up the novel, we don't even use it.

Sounds to me that the enemy was opposed by a couple of Kages, hence Sasuke's hypothesis that this is who Kaguya was preparing for is not sound.

Boruto is canon to Naruto regardless of its format. In fact, an official timeline includes a picture of the movie novelization (top right). The novelization clearly shows that Momoshiki and Kinshiki were struggling/frustrated/stalemated by two Kage-level opponents.

 

[LordTracer]

I’m not gonna weigh in on Momoshiki and Kinshiki’s tierings, but because I’ve seen two people make the claim that Madara would solo the New Era Kage, I’d like to remind you that one of these Kage is Gaara, who could already fight Madara fifteen years ago.

Also just saying “I don’t think the Kage can get this strong” or “This doesn’t make sense” are not arguments, those are fallacies.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Uh. wasn't this already kinda brought up before? The Kinshiki vs Kage point at least?

I vaguely remember the kages being used before in attempts to downgrade Kinshiki and Momo and it was agreed on not being viable.

 

[Kin201]

I’m not gonna weigh in on Momoshiki and Kinshiki’s tierings, but because I’ve seen two people make the claim that Madara would solo the New Era Kage, I’d like to remind you that one of these Kage is Gaara, who could already fight Madara fifteen years ago.

Also just saying “I don’t think the Kage can get this strong” or “This doesn’t make sense” are not arguments, those are fallacies.

Fighting someone doesn't mean you are on their level. Common sense should tell you that Gaara or the other kages individually can stomp Ten-tails, Hashirama's Wood Style, Madara's PS and 8th Gates Guy doesn't make sense.

 

[Galvino]

So why didn't Sasuke just stomp and speedblitz him if Kinshiki is only Island level and MHS+? Their fight looked pretty equal for the most part and Kinshiki launched Sasuke into rocks, how can someone who's 6-C do that against someone who's 5-C?

I'm pretty sure Sasuke was the one carrying the kage for the most part.

Having the Kage somewhat scale to Kinshiki isn't far fetched as the new Team 7+Kawaki (With the help of Karma) beat up Boro. Who's stated to be above Delta who even gave Naruto some trouble and the wiki itself considers her 5-C. Having characters get stronger already happened in this verse like when Kakashi somehow got stronger in the war arc.

 

[LordTracer]

Fighting someone doesn't mean you are on their level. Common sense should tell you that Gaara or the other kages individually can stomp Ten-tails, Hashirama's Wood Style, Madara's PS and 8th Gates Guy doesn't make sense.

Gaara’s sand was blocking attacks from Madara’s Susano’o and he could hold back the Gedō Mazō. He scales to Madara in the War Arc, that’s not a question.

And all I’m seeing is, once again, an argument from incredulity.

 

[Damage3245]

Gaara’s sand was blocking attacks from Madara’s Susano’o

He could, but he was also being overpowered by him - and that was Madara significantly holding back anyway.

and he could hold back the Gedō Mazō.

When did Gaara hold back the Gedo Mazo?

 

[joshpiece]

So why didn't Sasuke just stomp and speedblitz him if Kinshiki is only Island level and MHS+? Their fight looked pretty equal for the most part and Kinshiki launched Sasuke into rocks, how can someone who's 6-C do that against someone who's 5-C?

My thoughts exactly, I disagree with the downgrade.

 

[LordTracer]

He could, but he was also being overpowered by him - and that was Madara significantly holding back anyway.

When Madara stated that he was finally “going full power,” it was in reference to him unleashing the Perfect Susano’o. Unless I missed it, it is never stated that he was holding back against the Kage in base. And Gaara was only overpowered when several Susano’o struck his sand at once, a single one couldn’t break through.

When did Gaara hold back the Gedo Mazo?

I misspoke there, he was holding back the chains from it when it was trying to absorb Shukaku.

 

[Kin201]

Having the Kage somewhat scale to Kinshiki isn't far fetched as the new Team 7+Kawaki (With the help of Karma) beat up Boro. Who's stated to be above Delta who even gave Naruto some trouble and the wiki itself considers her 5-C. Having characters get stronger already happened in this verse like when Kakashi somehow got stronger in the war arc.

Characters get stronger but not to the point that will make the god tiers look like a joke to them (6-A+ vs. 5-C). So no, team 7 + Kawaki isn't 5-C, same with new kages individually. Unless their godly training methods are revealed, we should take it case by case and use common sense to rate their level.

 

[KingTempest]

Agreed. No matter how this thread goes whether they get downgraded or not, Team 7 + Kawaki isn't 5-C.

 

[Galvino]

Characters get stronger but not to the point that will make the god tiers look like a joke to them (6-A+ vs. 5-C).

Characters training for 15 years for upcoming threats and being just relevant enough for them to support Sasuke isn't making god tiers look like a joke. Also, not an argument. No offence, but what you're saying looks to me like just head canon.

So no, team 7 + Kawaki isn't 5-C

I never said Team 7 + Kawaki was 5-C, straw manning me. All I said was that all of them combined defeated Boro. My point was that Sarada (who hurt Boro) and Mitsuki were relevant enough to support Boruto and Kawaki who (with karma and were much stronger than Sarada and Mitsuki) damaged Boro multiple times. All I'm saying is that the kage being relevant in the battle is not an anti-feat for Kinshiki and Momoshiki.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

So why didn't Sasuke just stomp and speedblitz him if Kinshiki is only Island level and MHS+? Their fight looked pretty equal for the most part and Kinshiki launched Sasuke into rocks, how can someone who's 6-C do that against someone who's 5-C?

I'm pretty sure Sasuke was the one carrying the kage for the most part.

Having the Kage somewhat scale to Kinshiki isn't far fetched as the new Team 7+Kawaki (With the help of Karma) beat up Boro. Who's stated to be above Delta who even gave Naruto some trouble and the wiki itself considers her 5-C. Having characters get stronger already happened in this verse like when Kakashi somehow got stronger in the war arc.

There are multiple indications that Adult Naruto and Sasuke are significantly weaker than their teenage peak, but you don't need to subscribe to this view to downgrade Momoshiki and Kinshiki. For the Momoshiki/Kinshiki fights, it is usually said that Naruto & Sasuke had low Chakra, which is why they didn't stomp.

Sarada said that Boro isn't that fast, and Boro's durability isn't something to write home about either. That Boro is considered more powerful than Delta, and that Isshiki unironicly thought that Boro poses a threat to Naruto/Sasuke, just because he has regeneration and uses paralysis gas, is either Isshiki being dumb or an anti-feat for Naruto/Sasuke.

Gaara’s sand was blocking attacks from Madara’s Susano’o and he could hold back the Gedō Mazō. He scales to Madara in the War Arc, that’s not a question.

And all I’m seeing is, once again, an argument from incredulity.

Madara said that Hashirama's wood clones are fodder compared to the actual body. So it is a bold claim to scale Gaara to Madara through one of two dozens of his clones, let alone scale Gaara above the Perfect Sussano.

Madara and Hashirama has been firmly established to be the pinnacle of power for Shinobi in their long history (in both talent and genetics). Retconning this with multiple people far surpassing them with training, without support from alien Chakra/parasites, will require much more evidence than what is provided.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I pretty much disagree with the downgrade

 

[Kin201]

.

I'm sorry if you felt a bit slighted by my post. But to me, it seems that you've said that Boro>Delta (5-C), and team 7 + Kawaki beat boro, therefore the combined of them was 5-C+. If I misinterpreted what you said, then I apologise.

Characters training for 15 years for upcoming threats and being just relevant enough for them to support Sasuke isn't making god tiers look like a joke. Also, not an argument. No offence, but what you're saying looks to me like just head canon.

What I said might be headcanon but it is also common sense.