-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion
- Thread starter Zoro21043
- Start date
- 1,003
- 897
In case you haven't seen it yet, Bleach this time actually managed to get into not just top 5 most grossing TV Tokyo properties, but it managed to get the 4th position. Last few years Bleach would only appear on the top 5 highest selling, but never on top 5 grossing.
Left is sales, right is grossing
Left is sales, right is grossing
- 18,938
- 27,733
Lemme hear your takeNow that I understand more about Bleach, I realize that Ichigo’s true bankai being broken instantly is incredible writing and a moment that truly pushes the themes of Bleach.
Will elaborate if needed
you've brought up interesting narrative takes before, I look forward to hearing your spin on the final battle.
Arcker123
He/Him- 8,080
- 6,170
Well, I mean it ties into Yhwach’s major themes of fear and despair. Yhwach is despair, Ichigo is hope. Yhwach does directly go on a spiel about Despair after all. The whole narrative theme their dynamic pushes is that we should not despair at death, but rather gain the courage to face it.Lemme hear your take
Ichigo getting his bankai broken is perfectly representative of Despair. A bankai in bleach is meant to turn a fight around and give the shinigami hope of victory. Seeing the bankai (a symbol of hope) get instantly shattered represents despair (no bankai=no hope).
Ichigo eventually gives into despair and fear and gives in to Yhwach. It’s a moment of cowardice for Ichigo. It’s only when Renji reminds him what he’s fighting for, does Ichigo gain the courage to fight. Ichigo gains the courage to fight, even when outmatched and facing death. By fighting Yhwach again, he did not fear or despair at death like Yhwach did, or he himself did. This is the “Courage” Aizen spoke of.
Ichigo has always been a character surrounded by fear and despair. His savior complex arose from the hopelessness and despair he felt at his mothers death. Ichigo giving into, and eventually overcoming Despair is a nice development for him. I think Ichigo relying on his friends to motivate him is also a good deconstrution of his savior complex. He can finally rely on others to help him, instead of being the lone white knight facing despair alone.
Theres also some symbolism with Heaven and Nirvana I can write about, but this is kinda lengthy.
I could also write about Yhwach being hypocritical, but eh.
TL;DR: It’s a good moment because it perpetuates the themes of the narrative and characters (Despair, Hope, and the ability to walk forward in the face of death, “Courage”) and develops Ichigo real nice.
- 18,938
- 27,733
Yeah they push the Bankai = ultimate win con/beacon of hope for the Shinigami throughout the war, and I think the most amount of Bankai are revealed this arc as well. Hell a major plot point revolved around the stealing and regaining of the Bankai.
Agree 100%, it was a nice way to tie up the plot threads from as far back as the Arrancar Arc, where Ichigo's refusal to rely on his friends was at its highest. I remember reading how people felt Ichigo's fight against Yhwach was a regression of his character, but I feel your interpretation here is far more likely. I always viewed that fight as displaying Ichigo's ability to now rely on others, we see that moments prior with him and Orihime teaming up (albeit the focus is much more on Orihime's development for their team up). Having Ichigo stumble in the pivotal moment of the final battle, only to have Ichigo be saved by the comrades he was previously unable to place his faith in, and then conquering despair is a nice way to wrap up Ichigo's character development. Both in the overcoming despair and his inability to rely on others regardless of the situation.
I'd read it
- 13,587
- 5,754
Will say that I never thought of the Bankai break like that before. Which is weird because my favourite scene/part of Bleach as a whole is Ichigo travelling to SS and Akon telling everybody that his Bankai getting stolen. No matter how many times I read it, it never fails to get me hyped. Definitely a good take on the Bankai break.
Now what’s this Nirvana symbolism you speak of?
Arcker123
He/Him- 8,080
- 6,170
Buddhist Nirvana is ridding oneself of attachments in order to achieve Paradise.
I’ve talked about Yhwach’s symbolism with Nirvana/Heaven before but I guess I can do it again.
Yhwach wants to achieve paradise for all beings. He wanted to rid the world of death and make everyone immortal, removing the fear of death. In a sense, he wanted to achieve Nirvana (Paradise where there is no fear and no one dies). The almighty could also be taken as symbolic of Enlightenment (omniscience and whatnot, the many eyes and the Buddhist third eye).
Yhwach rid himself of his own attachments. Just prior to creating this “paradise” Yhwach kills his entire family, the Quincy/Sternritter. Everyone he claimed to love and care was killed by him, for just for this paradise. Hes horrifically cut himself from his attachments. This riddding of his attachments was necessary for his “Nirvana” goal, as it is IRL.
Yhwach is a critique on the concept of an afterlife and Paradise, and since Kubo loves his Buddhist symbolism, it makes sense he’d combine these two topics for his final villain. Yhwach ended up being a critique on the Buddhist “paradise” or “afterlife,” which is Nirvana.
As it relates to Ichigo, I think his friends ultimately helping him out of his despair ties into the critique of Nirvana. Whereas Yhwach rid himself of attachment, Ichigo accepted his attachment. Ichigo’s attachment would hinder the attainment of Nirvana. Both of them were men surrounded by loss and death of others (Ichigo losing his mom, Yhwach being the miracle child who killed everyone who touched him), yet only one could accept being close to other people (Ichigo) and the other rejected his attachment (Yhwach).
I’ve talked about Yhwach’s symbolism with Nirvana/Heaven before but I guess I can do it again.
Yhwach wants to achieve paradise for all beings. He wanted to rid the world of death and make everyone immortal, removing the fear of death. In a sense, he wanted to achieve Nirvana (Paradise where there is no fear and no one dies). The almighty could also be taken as symbolic of Enlightenment (omniscience and whatnot, the many eyes and the Buddhist third eye).
Yhwach rid himself of his own attachments. Just prior to creating this “paradise” Yhwach kills his entire family, the Quincy/Sternritter. Everyone he claimed to love and care was killed by him, for just for this paradise. Hes horrifically cut himself from his attachments. This riddding of his attachments was necessary for his “Nirvana” goal, as it is IRL.
Yhwach is a critique on the concept of an afterlife and Paradise, and since Kubo loves his Buddhist symbolism, it makes sense he’d combine these two topics for his final villain. Yhwach ended up being a critique on the Buddhist “paradise” or “afterlife,” which is Nirvana.
As it relates to Ichigo, I think his friends ultimately helping him out of his despair ties into the critique of Nirvana. Whereas Yhwach rid himself of attachment, Ichigo accepted his attachment. Ichigo’s attachment would hinder the attainment of Nirvana. Both of them were men surrounded by loss and death of others (Ichigo losing his mom, Yhwach being the miracle child who killed everyone who touched him), yet only one could accept being close to other people (Ichigo) and the other rejected his attachment (Yhwach).
Last edited:
- 18,938
- 27,733
Having not known much about Buddhist Nirvana prior, this recontextualization makes a lot of sense.
Yeah that fits extremely well with the themes pushed towards to the forefront of the series towards the end. Quite a well put together foil pair, Ichigo and Yhwach.
Arcker123
He/Him- 8,080
- 6,170
Arcker123
He/Him- 8,080
- 6,170
Another cool detail I forgot. Nirvana is essentially liberating oneself from the cycle of rebirth and suffering
Where does that apply to Yhwach
- 18,938
- 27,733
Where does that apply to Yhwach
I wonder
- 18,938
- 27,733
Kinda like a fusion of Nagato and Madara, the peace through war part for Nagato, and escaping the cycle of experiencing pain (death and hatred) part for Madara.
Arcker123
He/Him- 8,080
- 6,170
Knowing this Info kinda recontextualizes this scene. Yhwach always fought for peace and to end death and bloodshed. That’s what he says here after al. Since its stated Yhwach hates lies, we can assume Yhwach’s statement here is truthful.
We can assume he hated the conflict of TYBW, maybe explaining why he kept Tier alive. He used the blood war to end all death. Using war to bring the peace he loved, and end the conflict and death he hated, yet started.
Again, Kubo with the goat foreshadowing of Yhwach’s goal. His goal was kinda right there from his very first appearance.
- 18,938
- 27,733
Kubo too intellectual for normies
- 1,448
- 172
Bleach is closer to the representation of some thoughts of Friedrich Nietzsche, the entire work adopts Orphism and the acceptance of death as a solution to the chaotic world that is equivalent to paradise.
Yhwach being the representation of Christ, the denial of the value of life and the search for a world without death or "paradise", is purely Nihilistic. In addition to having some ideas from Freud and other references.
Bleach does not sin when it comes to philosophy and culture, everything is superficial for those who look superficially.
Yhwach being the representation of Christ, the denial of the value of life and the search for a world without death or "paradise", is purely Nihilistic. In addition to having some ideas from Freud and other references.
Bleach does not sin when it comes to philosophy and culture, everything is superficial for those who look superficially.
Arcker123
He/Him- 8,080
- 6,170
I agree. In fact, a lot of Aizen’s character is based in Nietzche’s work. An example would be the ubermensch.
I think this is more Absurdist than anything. We accept the world as is, yet continue to walk Foward. A nihilist would say moving Foward is pointless, but the absurdist (Ichigo and the courage thing) would disagree. “Absurdism Vs Nihilism” is actually one of the major themes of Ulquiorra (Nihilist) and Ichigo (Absurdist) dynamic
Edit for clarity: Bleach’s world, due to the false god (Reiō) is set up to be incredibly nihilistic. This is the whole philosophy behind Tokinada, Ulquiorra, Aizen, Yhwach, etc. Death is meaningless to Tokinada because of reincarnation. The whole point of “Courage” the climax of all of bleach’s themes, Is that despite being in such an inherently meaningless world, humans in bleach can still walk Foward. Even if we deny the search for heaven, we can still have meaning. That’s what I interpret bleach to say, that’s absurdist.
Or I may just be misunderstanding you, in which case
.
Last edited:
- 1,448
- 172
It's hard to say who really is Ubermansch in Bleach, Ichigo, Aizen and Urahara, are quite debated about who really approaches Niet's Ubermansch. Ichigo having a great ethical evolution in the work, living according to his own values and not being influenced by the "institution" and Aizen who was never really influenced and seeks to impose his own values on the world, I don't remember Urahara's explanation.
I don't know if I would define that as absurdism but Ichigo definitely reaches a peak of morality and the death of it when Ulquiorra kills him, and his resurrection was symbolic because when there is no moral value, the only thing left is instinct. And hollows are the best representations of that.
That's not exactly how it works, even if the world changes, as long as people seek salvation in what is beyond death while denying the value of life, or losing the sense of moving forward they continued in nihilism. I don't know Aizen but Tokinada, Yhwach and Ulquiorra fell into nihilism, the tokinada attempt was basically to see people's decision to know that living that life is meaningless since they can reincarnate, make everyone fall into nihilism. This worship of eternity is pure despair.
I don't know if I would define that as absurdism but Ichigo definitely reaches a peak of morality and the death of it when Ulquiorra kills him, and his resurrection was symbolic because when there is no moral value, the only thing left is instinct. And hollows are the best representations of that.
That's not exactly how it works, even if the world changes, as long as people seek salvation in what is beyond death while denying the value of life, or losing the sense of moving forward they continued in nihilism. I don't know Aizen but Tokinada, Yhwach and Ulquiorra fell into nihilism, the tokinada attempt was basically to see people's decision to know that living that life is meaningless since they can reincarnate, make everyone fall into nihilism. This worship of eternity is pure despair.
- 1,448
- 172
This Orphic world is much more convenient than paradise, because you reincarnate eternally and with that deny the despair of immortality, but even far from this eternal reality people keep looking for what is beyond death, and losing meaning in life, generating the nihilism. There is a very interesting OST of Bleach that describes the work itself well, the name is Cometh the hour.
- 432
- 300
How would his goal be retconned when Quincies were causing the unbalancing of the world since substitute shinigami arc ?
Knowing this Info kinda recontextualizes this scene. Yhwach always fought for peace and to end death and bloodshed. That’s what he says here after al. Since its stated Yhwach hates lies, we can assume Yhwach’s statement here is truthful.
We can assume he hated the conflict of TYBW, maybe explaining why he kept Tier alive. He used the blood war to end all death. Using war to bring the peace he loved, and end the conflict and death he hated, yet started.
Again, Kubo with the goat foreshadowing of Yhwach’s goal. His goal was kinda right there from his very first appearance.No clue why people say Yhwach’s main goal was retconned.
- 3,526
- 1,255
Thank you very much for that read. I quite enjoyed it.
- 334
- 309
it was removed? huh never noticed
- 18,938
- 27,733
SPitKubo>Shakespeare in poetry and writing
Arcker123
He/Him- 8,080
- 6,170
I actually think a lot of Mangaka are better writers than Shakepseare. He debatably didn’t even write the shit he’s known foe. Even that stuff is kinda mediocre compared to modern times. No one should actually think Macbeth or Romeo Juliet are comparable to shit like even the soul society arc or the war for Paradis. Yes, bleach’s worst arcs slap Romeo and juliet.
For example: Nagato on the cycle of hatred is a more thematic, impactful, and epic speech than any soliloquy Shakespeare had “wrote.”
- 228
- 62
I don't see it on his page or any espada page.
- 18,938
- 27,733
I’d provide a comment of more substance but I haven’t indulged in Shakespeare since High School. So, instead I’ll just gas you up and say **** yeah brother
- 1,812
- 1,328
Kubo while writing the deicide arc reached his peak at poetry>Shakespeare
- 366
- 91
Did he?
He was just talking some insane nonsense to me.
Was fun that Naruto had no answer and time proved Nagato was right tho.
- 1,003
- 897
Yes, he would.If the MoN Calc goes through, wouldnt ichigo be scaled to Solar System with Grc+ bankai multipliers?
- 334
- 309
The same way we've been using MoN for WSK's scaling for quite a while now:
A relatively small number of souls that strayed away from the soul cycle had enough energy (energy = mass) to form an entire realm containing a star. The WSK's raw power is passively overcoming the destructive energy of a "massive" number of souls flowing into the SS every second as stated by yhwach. There's also the fact that senna's explosion couldn't damage the dangai or the SS/WOL
- 11,564
- 3,119
Rasegan shurinken destroys cells not soul particles.
- 11,564
- 3,119
Weird. In the live broadcast of the announcement of the new Bleach anime, it was confirmed that they would adapt the whole final arc all the way to the end without any breaks. In other words, we're not going to get the first twelve episodes and then have to wait a few months for the next episodes.
