• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

Adam1396 said:
Even yamamoto the one who fought failed to guess yhwach's strength.
Click to expand...
He failed to recognize how they stole Bankai. He didn't recognize Royd because he was blindsided by revenge, otherwise he would've noticed the differences in their mannerisms.
Adam1396 said:
Yeah she literally sensed, assumed yamamoto would win which oroved to be wrong.
Click to expand...
She didn't assume Yama would win, she was hoping he would, not even close to "expecting." She hoped Yamamoto would win before he burned the Soul Society to cinders.
Adam1396 said:
But his scaling to fake yhwach is assumption and the evidence you are trying to use is far too weak
Click to expand...
Testimony from one of the smartest Gotei members who fought in the original conflict with Yhwach isn't really weak evidence. It's some of the best evidence actually, because she was there in the original time, and sensed the fight in the present.
Adam1396 said:
Didn’t evwn kid toshiro deflect nozarashi's slash?
Click to expand...
He got slammed into a crater trying to block Kenpachi in his adolecent Bankai and still took damage. Bankai Kenpachi ripped Gerard's arm off with his teeth and split him down the middle like butter, even Base Kenny stopped his stomp and had him fall flat on his ass. Toshiro was only able to freeze Gerard (albeit a stronger one) and even so he broke out and needed a weakened Kenny to bail him out.
 
Last edited:
ReaperAndBlues said:
He failed to recognize how they stole Bankai. He didn't recognize Royd because he was blindsided by revenge, otherwise he would've noticed the differences in their mannerisms.
Click to expand...
Again it's your assumption.
You are ignoring the flawlessness of royd's power, appearance mimicry.
ReaperAndBlues said:
She didn't assume Yama would win, she was hoping he would, not even close to "expecting." She hoped Yamamoto would win before he burned the Soul Society to cinders.
Click to expand...
It's same. Ultimately she was not expecting yama's lose.
Both clearly failed to gauge Yhwach's power.
ReaperAndBlues said:
Testimony from one of the smartest Gotei members who fought in the original conflict with Yhwach isn't really weak evidence. It's some of the best evidence actually, because she was there in the original time, and sensed the fight in the present.
Click to expand...
It's weak. She has no real idea about current Yhwach's power and this was shown.
Her being present thousand years ago doesn’t mean s*** when her idea was explicitly proven wrong along with yamamoto.
ReaperAndBlues said:
He got slammed into a crater trying to block Kenpachi in his adolecent Bankai and still took damage. Bankai Kenpachi ripped Gerard's arm off with his teeth and split him down the middle like butter, even Base Kenny stopped his stomp and had him fall flat on his ass. Toshiro was only able to freeze Gerard (albeit a stronger one) and even so he broke out and needed a weakened Kenny to bail him out.
Click to expand...
None of these feats are superior to what adult toshiro did.
He broke out with hax not with power and it's noted by the end of chapter miracle didn’t cease.
 
I have some doubts about Hisagi’s Bankai.
Who among those affected by Hisagi’s ability could possibly overcome his Bankai?
 
Shouldn't Hitsugaya's Limited Durability Negation rating be nuked on his Base Abilities?
• Limited Durability Negation (Toshiro can freeze someone to the bone with his maximum output[11], contextually this was against someone who was massively stronger then Toshiro[12] so this shouldn't necessarily be assumed he'd need his maximum output against weaker opponents then himself[11])
Click to expand...
It's a byproduct of Absolute Zero and it was accepted as likely on his adult form anyways, I don't get why we should keep this when maximum output is already accepted as "likely Absolute Zero".
 
The character I’ve been talking about to make a match with Ichigo has been upgraded. Here’s the matchup with Ichigo for those that are interested.
vsbattles.com

The Substitute Shinigami vs The Warrior of Kindness (Bleach vs Ultra Series) (Concluded)

Upgrades are finally complete so I can actually make this match now. The kind substitute shinigami that would not kill unless you push him to his mental limit vs The ultra who is among the kindest person ever but will not hesitate to choose violence and kill if you try to pull some evil stuff...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Accidentally placed the thread in the JokeBattles vs thread but I already contacted a staff to move it.
 
Adam1396 said:
How is zaraki > fake yhwach.
There's literally no basis of it.
Click to expand...
Adam, before you make a response like this, I advise you read up a little


Here is a very very clear statement. She's bringing up examples where he narrowly lost to people because he was suppressed, and they show Fake Yhwach.. You can't get more blatant than this besides having her say it explicitly.

Adam1396 said:
Even if gremmy is strongest sternritter, he should still be weaker than yhwach and may be weaker than fake yhwach as well who should be one of the strongest sternritter anyway.
Click to expand...
Besides the language barrier, this is still kind of incoherent.

You said "may be weaker than fake Yhwach who should be one of the strongest sternritter anyway," but you're making a fallacious type of argument known as "begging the question." He "may" be stronger? Why?

Adam1396 said:
Zaraki still has no substantial proof of scaling to base yhwach other than unohana's vague statement. This was an assumption on unohana's part. And how would she even have idea about fake yhwach's strength?
Click to expand...
Unohana fought Zaraki as a kid and can sense power. She knows all she's going to do is give him the power he had before, and she's still like "ok, you should've been able to win all of these fights."

Adam1396 said:
Technically zaraki didn’t beat gremmy at all, though his scaling to gremmy is quite clear.
Click to expand...
He pretty consistently overpowered anything Gremmy could make? He took damage from Gremmy's hax of being thrown to outer space, and then the suicide explosions which damaged him even more than they would've given the space damage.
Adam1396 said:
Toshiro still has better feats than zaraki.
Click to expand...
Show me a Toshiro AP feat, where he does something without hax, and he deals significant damage to someone, when there isn't any proof Toshiro froze it before.
 
Adam1396 said:
It's same. Ultimately she was not expecting yama's lose.
Both clearly failed to gauge Yhwach's power.
Click to expand...
Yama beat Royd though? What are you on? We never see Unohana talking about the situation once the real Yhwach shows up.

Also, no? They didn't fail to gauge the real Yhwach's power. Yamamoto was tired after the fight, and hence had no chance vs the real Yhwach once he had his bankai stolen

Adam1396 said:
It's weak. She has no real idea about current Yhwach's power and this was shown.
Her being present thousand years ago doesn’t mean s*** when her idea was explicitly proven wrong along with yamamoto.
Click to expand...
No again? Show me an explicit statemenet of "her idea" being "explicitly proven wrong along with Yamamoto."

Adam1396 said:
None of these feats are superior to what adult toshiro did.
He broke out with hax not with power and it's noted by the end of chapter miracle didn’t cease.
Click to expand...
He didn't freeze the core, which is what was used to revive Gerard, and its stated by him that Gerard's matter ceased its function.
 
Guacamolefletcher said:
Yama beat Royd though? What are you on? We never see Unohana talking about the situation once the real Yhwach shows up.
Click to expand...
Guacamolefletcher said:
Also, no? They didn't fail to gauge the real Yhwach's power. Yamamoto was tired after the fight, and hence had no chance vs the real Yhwach once he had his bankai stolen
Click to expand...
Yamamoto being at full power totally fresh wouldn’t still change the outcome and the fact that yhwach is stronger. They can't gauge someone they failed to even identify. And here they literally failed to identify both.
Guacamolefletcher said:
No again? Show me an explicit statemenet of "her idea" being "explicitly proven wrong along with Yamamoto."
Click to expand...
They failed to recognize him.
Yama was proven wrong more times who was supposed to be smarter and more experienced lol. Baldy thought Yhwach can't steal his bankai and yhwach responded generously
Guacamolefletcher said:
He didn't freeze the core, which is what was used to revive Gerard, and its stated by him that Gerard's matter ceased its function.
Click to expand...
What are you on!! He froze gerard's entire body apart from foot. We see where his cross was supposed to be also crumbled.
Gerard didn’t really regenerate. He formed a new body which is different from regeneration.

Yes, and later gerard came back with a denotation " miracle never cease"
 
There is also so much problem with the particular statements and justification.

Zaraki being able to clash to heart's content doesn’t mean he would be equal. It means these opponents won't get one shotted not that he is even to them. The interpretation of these statements itself is wrong.

Funnier thing is both renji and byakuya were included here but for some reason they don’t have the same ap scaling.
 
Last edited:
AnAverageUsername said:
As much as it would go against the agenda, I do admit it would be cool to see Shukei Hakuteiken clash with giant Gerard evenly.
Click to expand...
An even better scenario would be if it’s shown in the anime that Bankai Kenpachi did in fact hit Gerard’s medallion core but couldn’t destroy it. And Byakuya’s new Shukei Hakuteiken destroys the medallion core after True Bankai Toshiro and Bankai Kenpachi creates an opening for Byakuya to use it against Gerard.
 
Pernida gets resistance to Mayuri's sound paralysis as it was on the area at the same distance as Ikkaku and the others on the opposite side of Mayuri.
 
Guacamolefletcher said:
Here is a very very clear statement. She's bringing up examples where he narrowly lost to people because he was suppressed, and they show Fake Yhwach.. You can't get more blatant than this besides having her say it explicitly.
Click to expand...
But his lot not narrowly against fake yhwach... Lloyd didn't take even a scar or anything that's a absolute crushing
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Renji straight up is just stronger atm, and I guarantee you Byakuya is gonna get some crazy Shukei Hakuteiken scaling or sumn with Gerard. So funny indeed.
Click to expand...
Renji is not stronger and he himself would prove it. Even if not, this is what you call outlier feat not gremmy's one.

Let's hope something better for byakuya.
 
Doesn’t jugram have a statement in the SJ version of chapter 660 calling him the strongest enemy ever up to that point?

Why doesn’t the wiki use that?
 
Wankbreaker said:
Doesn’t jugram have a statement in the SJ version of chapter 660 calling him the strongest enemy ever up to that point?

Why doesn’t the wiki use that?
Click to expand...
Who?
But he has statement of being the balancer of the world.

Also I'm curious jugram being the masked ruler, how that would be treated
 
Adam1396 said:
Yamamoto being at full power totally fresh wouldn’t still change the outcome and the fact that yhwach is stronger. They can't gauge someone they failed to even identify. And here they literally failed to identify both.
Click to expand...
There is no proof Yhwach got stronger - there is proof against this. We know that all Yhwach is doing is he's regaining power he had. Regain means getting back something he had before. That means he had that same power before, that which he's still in the process of regaining.
Adam1396 said:
They failed to recognize him.
Yama was proven wrong more times who was supposed to be smarter and more experienced lol. Baldy thought Yhwach can't steal his bankai and yhwach responded generously
Click to expand...
"They failed to recognize him"? Like what are you f*cking on about? Royd has literal powers to copy that mfs looks identically... what are you on bro...
Adam1396 said:
What are you on!! He froze gerard's entire body apart from foot. We see where his cross was supposed to be also crumbled.
Gerard didn’t really regenerate. He formed a new body which is different from regeneration.

Yes, and later gerard came back with a denotation " miracle never cease"
Click to expand...
If the cross was crumbled, he would've died. That's the entire point of the weak point... Also the fact that it was frozen already disproves your point. he froze Gerard's body, then easily cleaved through it.


Adam1396 said:
Funnier thing is both renji and byakuya were included here but for some reason they don’t have the same ap scaling.
Click to expand...
Because about Renji and Byakuya, she's making an assumption that they'll be up to par after their training (which ends up being wrong), while with Yhwach she's saying that based on what she's seen from him.


AKUTO123 said:
But his lot not narrowly against fake yhwach... Lloyd didn't take even a scar or anything that's a absolute crushing
Click to expand...
I guess that's a fair point insofar as my wording, but in general, the point is she's pointing out examples of him having lost or narrowly won because of his supression, which is why they also show Ichigo.


Wankbreaker said:
Doesn’t jugram have a statement in the SJ version of chapter 660 calling him the strongest enemy ever up to that point?

Why doesn’t the wiki use that?
Click to expand...
Because it's not a statement from the SJ version of chapter 660, it's an editor's note, and those are insanely inconsistent, even internally. If I had access to my discord, I'd send like 10 stupid editor's notes which hype people up like that.
 
I was watching Cour 3, Episode 1 in English dub and noticed what might be a “new” scene that wasn’t in the Japanese version. During Ichibei’s ritual dance with the Viking-style song, there’s a moment where we see Yhwach’s boots covered in black, seemingly held in place as he struggles to move but can’t.

Is this new? I don’t remember seeing this part before.
 
AppleLord said:
I was watching Cour 3, Episode 1 in English dub and noticed what might be a “new” scene that wasn’t in the Japanese version. During Ichibei’s ritual dance with the Viking-style song, there’s a moment where we see Yhwach’s boots covered in black, seemingly held in place as he struggles to move but can’t.

Is this new? I don’t remember seeing this part before.
Click to expand...
That was in the sub as well. Also pretty sure that the song was a Kagura dance, not a Viking song.
 
Guacamolefletcher said:
There is no proof Yhwach got stronger - there is proof against this. We know that all Yhwach is doing is he's regaining power he had. Regain means getting back something he had before. That means he had that same power before, that which he's still in the process of regaining.
Click to expand...
Regain? What time you they were talking about. Yhwach was present in primordial world as well. . It's the other way. Him getting stronger. If he had this level of strength thousand years ago, he would still easy win bankai yamamoto without almighty. Not to mention ichibei took away power from him.
So you don’t have clear answer. In fact yamamoto has no way of taking away power.
All we know when yhwach regained his strength he was able to use 3 pupil almighty which he wasn’t against ichibei in the past. Likely they are reffering to time prior to that.
Guacamolefletcher said:
"They failed to recognize him"? Like what are you f*cking on about? Royd has literal powers to copy that mfs looks identically... what are you on bro...
Click to expand...
Exactly. If they can't even identify, the assumption was wrong in the first place.
Guacamolefletcher said:
If the cross was crumbled, he would've died. That's the entire point of the weak point... Also the fact that it was frozen already disproves your point. he froze Gerard's body, then easily cleaved through it.
Click to expand...
Well we see hogyoku getting erased and it still was not destroyed. So you are trying to misinterpret kubo's this statement as well just like unohana's.
It just can not be destroyed by conventional means.
Guacamolefletcher said:
Because about Renji and Byakuya, she's making an assumption that they'll be up to par after their training (which ends up being wrong), while with Yhwach she's saying that based on what she's seen from him.
Click to expand...
All these statement come together. But you are saying she is sure about a part but another part is assumption? Laughable
Guacamolefletcher said:
I guess that's a fair point insofar as my wording, but in general, the point is she's pointing out examples of him having lost or narrowly won because of his supression, which is why they also show Ichigo.
Click to expand...
Yeah, they show fullbring ichigo who he never fought against. He didn’t even fight renji. Putting all of these characters with different power level is wierd af. Also he didn’t lose narrowly against royd.
As I've said entire interpretation and wording of justification both are heavily questionable.
Guacamolefletcher said:
Because it's not a statement from the SJ version of chapter 660, it's an editor's note, and those are insanely inconsistent, even internally. If I had access to my discord, I'd send like 10 stupid editor's notes which hype people up like that.
Click to expand...
Fair. Let's see how anime handle this.
 
Last edited:
Adam1396 said:
Renji is not stronger and he himself would prove it. Even if not, this is what you call outlier feat not gremmy's one.

Let's hope something better for byakuya.
Click to expand...
Why would it be an outlier for someone who went through Squad 0's training, to be just stronger than other people that didn't?
 
PerezosoUlixes said:
Why would it be an outlier for someone who went through Squad 0's training, to be just stronger than other people that didn't?
Click to expand...
So what if he went through sz training huh?
Rukia undergone that training as well. At most it can make these Lieutenant class high captain level. Flat out scaling to SZ would be funny as hell.
I guess people will start scaling grimjow to reio candidate level due to ichigo's expression after seeing him. Might exchange blow in future. Ichigo couldn’t track grimjow askin don't forget that.
Whatever these things can not always guarantee similar scaling.
 
Adam1396 said:
Regain? What time you they were talking about. Yhwach was present in primordial world as well.
Click to expand...
He wasn't present in the Primordial World. He was explicitly born 200 years prior to the war against Soul Society 1000 years ago. And also, we see that he didn't know about the way all things went for Adnyeus and he also didn't know how Soul King actually looks like.
 
PerezosoUlixes said:
He wasn't present in the Primordial World. He was explicitly born 200 years prior to the war against Soul Society 1000 years ago. And also, we see that he didn't know about the way all things went for Adnyeus and he also didn't know how Soul King actually looks like.
Click to expand...
Oh. He was present in primordial world.
May be his memory was wiped out.

Again beside reio, only thing that took away power from him was ichibei not yamamoto.

So yeah, yamamoto, unohana never had correct idea about yhwach's true power.
 
Adam1396 said:
So what if he went through sz training huh?
Rukia undergone that training as well. At most it can make these Lieutenant class high captain level. Flat out scaling to SZ would be funny as hell.
I guess people will start scaling grimjow to reio candidate level due to ichigo's expression after seeing him. Might exchange blow in future. Ichigo couldn’t track grimjow askin don't forget that.
Whatever these things can not always guarantee similar scaling.
Click to expand...
1- In order to be that strong, Rukia would have to show that kind of feats.
2- "At most" is not something we have ever seen nor was ever stated by any character within the series. As far as we know, they can be as strong as Kubo wants them to be.
3- You have to be kidding if you really think those situations are in any way comparable to Renji's situation. Not only Grimmjow is the kind of people that would try to fight anyone, even if they are way stronger than him, as we see when he opposed Ulquiorra and got his hand destroyed, or also in CFYOW when he wanted to fight Ichibē. And Ichigo losing them is due to him not wanting to separate from the group, so he obviously is just running at the same pace as everyone.
 
Adam1396 said:
Oh. He was present in primordial world.
May be his memory was wiped out.

Again beside reio, only thing that took away power from him was ichibei not yamamoto.

So yeah, yamamoto, unohana never had correct idea about yhwach's true power.
Click to expand...
No, you are making an assumption based on circumstances that don't prove your point and trying to glue together with another assumption that is not even stated nor insinuated by the narrative. I can give you that nothing is certain up to this point and I easily could be contradicted by the anime, but that doesn't mean we can assume anything we want just because. If you believe that he existed in the primordial world, you have to give more explanations or justifications than "maybe" he lost his memory.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

DemonicDude
  • Locked
Ben 10 vs Bleach| 4-A
Replies
34
Views
2K
ReaperAndBlues
ReaperAndBlues
Johner2133451
Does the average Soul Reaper's soul crush from Bleach can solo all Dragon Ball Super characters?
Replies
17
Views
1K
GarrixianXD
GarrixianXD
TheReal7Cris
Ichigo Vs Kai
2 3
Replies
108
Views
7K
Noes
Noes
RanaProGamer
  • Locked
Death Battle REMATCH | Naruto vs Ichigo GRACE
7 8 9
Replies
352
Views
26K
Tatsumi504
Tatsumi504
Peter1129
The Substitute Shinigami vs The Warrior of Kindness (Bleach vs Ultra Series) (Concluded)
Replies
28
Views
2K
Peter1129
Peter1129
Back
Top