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Baki soul manipulation CRT

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Just to let everyone know "Combat Applicable" doesn't inherently denote "Combat Effectiveness".

Baki's Astral Projection is 100% Combat Applicable but its effectiveness within combat is debatable.

Just wanted to state this so this doesn't become a huge detore to the main premise of the thread.
 
Dread said:
^^
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So like I said. There’s a different between knocking someone out and literally punching there soul away in the baki verse. Hell in Baki fight with musashi there are two different instances of this. The jab that knocks Musashi out for like a moment. Then in there finally fight where him removing the soul would literally give him enough time to kill musashi. You know because his soul is not in his body.
 
Dread said:
Alright. I still disagree with soul manipulation and many are in same opinion. Astral Projection at best (excluding sister one)
Let staff decide this
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Dread
NotoriouSoda said:
Uhh I guess it’s time to reach a Compromise

After giving it some thought I realized that Astral and soul are literally the same thing. However with the vs wiki stander I’m good with giving the rest of the cast Astral projection, but giving Tokigawa sister souls manipulation for how clear it is.

Oh and if anyone believes this is a downgrade it’s really not. It’s just to Appease both parties. And hey it’s still soul manipulation and not “a gag” lol
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Please read
 
NotoriouSoda said:
The comments? Literally half of the comments on the third pages are people memeing tf?

Are you taking about DTG points? If so there terrible because Itagaki makes a clear difference between knocking someone else soul out and just getting knock out. What’s the response to this fr. I’m actually curious
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There is a difference in the cause but the effect is exactly the same as getting knocked out.
 
Alright, I will summarize it @Antvasima
Sir_Ovens said:
Yeah I can buy that Tokigawa's sister has legitimate soul manipulation, but these are just showings of a person losing consciousness after being hit really hard. None of the scans you've posted even allude to soul manipulation because they're all done with physical contact.

At the very best, this is just hitting so hard their soul exits their body, which would still only be physical AP.
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Damage3245 said:
If you hit someone hard enough that they bleed, you still won't get blood manipulation.

So hitting someone so hard that their soul emerges probably shouldn't get soul manipulation either.
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Sir_Ovens said:
Yes I've read Baki Dou and Dou II. I know the context. I still disagree because if Baki characters had legitimate soul manipulation, don't you think they would make it more prominent? Baki wrestled a giant imaginary mantis and not once have they ever brought up the fact that Baki can physically interact with souls.

I'm willing to concede to like, enhanced senses since Baki can see Yuichiro's ghost, but the one and only time souls have been mentioned in the entire series is when Musashi needed his to become animate.

Also the soul leaving the body is a trope. I don't think it's meant to be literal here.
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Sir_Ovens said:
My points were that the displayed scans of souls leaving the body were simply part of a trope. Said trope being the soul leaving the body after being hit really hard on the head. It is in no way meant to be taken literally and is just a gag at best.

In the case of Yujiro, he literally just killed a man. In what context would the soul leaving the body be interpreted as Yujiro having soul manipulation? The man died. What else was his soul supposed to do?

And like, to reaffirm my points above, the medium being able to channel Musashi's soul into his body was laughed at by the scientists that reconstructed said body. The narrative has not once, never, shown any Baki character to have any outwardly supernatural power that was not vaguely rooted in science. Not before the medium. If you want to argue that Nomu can purify the land, sure, I'll give you that. But even that was never expanded upon or detailed enough to prove that Nomu has actual supernatural ability within the context of Baki. Given all that I have said above, how believable is it that Baki would have legitimate soul manipulation over the scan being just a visual metaphor?
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Nehz_XZX said:
I can see the depiction of the soul leaving body as signifying the loss of consciousness or death even in relatively serious scenes and the soul would technically leave the body in any case where someone died if its nature in the series doesn't drastically differ from my general understanding of it, so this isn't enough for me.

That sounds closer to me but I think I need some more details for this. The scene seems to also involve a physical impact with the body if I'm not misinterpreting the visuals, so I'm not sure if this is really Soul Manipulation. Is there more context here and other instances of something like this happening?
Click to expand...

Hopes I did not forget any relevant staff comments. In addition, I will add an explanation of what we agreed:

Yujiro Scan - As shown within this scan Yujiro shakes the head of this random dude, with said head shaking causes his soul to leave his body, this a blatant example of Astral Projection because he's just actively separating the soul from his body, he isn't in any way "manipulating" it someone with bog standard Soul Manipulation can, he can't interact with this soul nor can he damage it, which would be needed to have Soul Manipulation, this is just Astral Projection, point, end, period.

Katsumi Scan - As shown within this scan Katsumi (or who I believe is Katsumi Idk personally because I haven't read Baki before) kicks this fighter in the face which causes his soul to fly out of his body, this again is a forceful form of Astral Projection as explained more thoroughly above.

Doppo Scan - As shown within this scan Doppo drops an ax kick onto the top of this fighter's head, causing his soul to fly out of his body, this, just like the previous examples is just a form of Astral Projection and not a form of Soul Manipulation that'll grant you the Soul Manipulation ability on this wiki, Doppo isn't interacting with, damaging or even manipulating this soul, he's just extracting it from this fighters body, which falls directly under the Astral Projection requirements.

Baki Scan - As shown within this scan Baki kicks the dude in the face, causing his soul to be removed from his body, this, just like all the other examples above is just a form of Astral Projection and not a form of Soul Manipulation.

Tokigawa Sister Scan - Soul manipulation, She ripped Musashi soul from his body (A clear soul manipulation)

The difference between Soul Manipulation and Astral Projection is the mechanics of both abilities, not the functionality, just because Soul Manipulation allows you to remove the souls out of others doesn't mean Baki's instance is Soul Manipulation, I've in-depth explained to you why it isn't Soul Manipulation but rather Astral Projection but you are either not paying attention or just being ratty.

Soul Manipulation inherently denotes that the character can "interact with" and somewhat touch or manipulate someone's soul while Astral Projection denotes someone can "remove" the souls from others or themselves, this action doesn't inherently require someone to actually interact with said soul to remove it from the opponents or their own body.

What most Baki characters are doing is hitting someone hard enough that it causes their soul to leave their physical body, this is Astral Projection over just Soul Manipulation because these characters aren't actively interacting with nor manipulating these souls, they're just removing them from the bodies of their opponents, which falls under the direct definition of Astral Projection.
 
I have very limited time and focus available right now, as I am busy, tired, and distracted. An easy to understand summary of the above sentiments would be appreciated.
 
Antvasima said:
I have very limited time and focus available right now, as I am busy, tired, and distracted. An easy to understand summary of the above sentiments would be appreciated.
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Mind reading the bottom one? It is easier one (every scan is explained)
 
Okay so what's happening now? Most of the thread seems to have spiraled into derailment.


I have the same stance as before, this should be Soul Manipulation not Astral Projection. The only character who should have Astral Projection is Baki himself since he's the only one who can manipulate his own soul freely.


Astral Projection is more akin to an ability that you cast on yourself to create an avatar of the sorts either from the soul or the mind.


Astral Projection doesn't force the Soul out of the opponent, that's strictly a Soul Manipulation ability in the form of Soul Ejection.


Astral Projection doesn't allow you to eject the souls out of the vessel's of other people.


Possible Uses
Leave the body to enter astral realm as a spirit/soul.
Communicate and interact with souls.
Ability to harm or destroy other souls.
Travel to Hell, Heaven, or another spiritual realm.



These characters aren't doing any of that here.


1: Only Baki has shown that he can control his own soul and move it freely, I.E Astral Projection for Baki.


2: Nobody is communicating with souls, outside of Baki's enhanced senses which let's him see souls, he cannot interact with them physically.

3: Nobody in Baki can damage or destroy Souls.

4: Nobody ever does this.




This is pretty cut clear Limited Soul Manipulation. What Baki characters do doesn't qualify for Astral Projection outside of Baki.
 
I just don't have the time and focus right now, as I have lots of things to think about IRL.
 
LordGinSama said:
Okay so what's happening now? Most of the thread seems to have spiraled into derailment.


I have the same stance as before, this should be Soul Manipulation not Astral Projection. The only character who should have Astral Projection is Baki himself since he's the only one who can manipulate his own soul freely.


Astral Projection is more akin to an ability that you cast on yourself to create an avatar of the sorts either from the soul or the mind.


Astral Projection doesn't force the Soul out of the opponent, that's strictly a Soul Manipulation ability in the form of Soul Ejection.


Astral Projection doesn't allow you to eject the souls out of the vessel's of other people.


Possible Uses
Leave the body to enter astral realm as a spirit/soul.
Communicate and interact with souls.
Ability to harm or destroy other souls.
Travel to Hell, Heaven, or another spiritual realm.



These characters aren't doing any of that here.


1: Only Baki has shown that he can control his own soul and move it freely, I.E Astral Projection for Baki.


2: Nobody is communicating with souls, outside of Baki's enhanced senses which let's him see souls, he cannot interact with them physically.

3: Nobody in Baki can damage or destroy Souls.

4: Nobody ever does this.




This is pretty cut clear Limited Soul Manipulation. What Baki characters do doesn't qualify for Astral Projection outside of Baki.
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Honestly bro I can make a new thread explaining why it’s soul Instead of astral.

because this one is getting to long
 
Oh also.....
Astral Projection is the ability to separate one's spirit/soul from one's body. The user can exit their body and gain access to Astral Plane, where they can exist as a spirit. It allows the user to communicate and interact with spirits/souls.

So if you think that baki doesn't have soul manip because he isn't direclty touching the souls, then he isn't getting astral plane because they can't make their soul leave their body (except for that woman)
 
LordGinSama said:
Baki has fine control of his own soul, that's Astral Projection.


Baki himself has free control and Manipulation over his own soul, such as spawning his soul to attack Yujiro.
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The thing is… Those characters (excluding the sister and baki) they are not even interacting with soul. Like, how it is logical to give them soul manipulation when a simple condition for soul manipulation is to interact with souls?
 
Dread said:
The thing is… Those characters (excluding the sister and baki) they are not even interacting with soul. Like, how it is logical to give them soul manipulation when a simple condition for soul manipulation is to interact with souls?
Click to expand...
Baki has fine control of his own soul, that's Astral Projection.


Baki himself has free control and Manipulation over his own soul, such as spawning his soul to attack Yujiro.
Click to expand...
 
what an aggressive thread lol, all that just for astral/soul manip on the characters, i really think this should be handled passively instead of aggressively
 
Meme, I'm gonna be blatantly succinct with you here.


You intentionally comment on threads to cause controversy then use the excuse of you not understanding. I'm not gonna sit here going back and forth based upon something my 6 year old niece would understand. You only argue for the sake of having an argument, going by your previous threads where you talk about verses that you know jack shit about. Solely due to you this simple thread has gone on for 4 pages and you've already been called out multiple times??



The Soul got affected yes? Then it's Soul Manipulation.
 
@Livinmeme

Yeah man I gotta ask you to stop for now bro. Your just not helping anyone atm

Anyway Ant you can close the thread. It’s basically done and Gin or me are going to address why it should be soul in the next crt.
 
Disruptcy? Yeah because i am the one who derailed the thread with memes. Anyway imma say this before i go

The thing is… Those characters (excluding the sister and baki) they are not even interacting with soul. Like, how it is logical to give them soul manipulation when a simple condition for soul manipulation is to interact with souls?
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Yeah but he is controling his soul and he is using it to atack, oh also by your logic it wouldn't complete the astral projection standards as i alredy said before

. The user can exit their body and gain access to Astral Plane, where they can exist as a spirit. It allows the user to communicate and interact with spirits/souls.

So if you think that baki doesn't have soul manip because he isn't direclty touching the souls, then he isn't getting astral plane because they can't make their soul leave their body (except for that woman)
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Is obvious that you are going to say i am not repling to your arguments, then people will agree with you. So if i continue here my responses will probally make the thread more toxic that alredy is (Even if they called me idiots several times but eh....). So chao is been good smell ya later

PD: Oh also is a hipocrisy how i am literally arguing with his same logic on why it shouldn't be astral projection because it doesn't fit the criterias by the page, like you were arguing with soul manip
 
So what did Damage3245, Sir_Ovens, and Nehz_XZX accept here in summary?
 
Yeah this thread has been going on long enough and Convoluted for no reason. Better to close this so I can make the different and shorter crt lol
 
Well, if somebody writes a summary explanation post here, I can ask for evaluations afterwards.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, if somebody writes a summary explanation post here, I can ask for evaluations afterwards.
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Well basically

The thread started with the characters having soul manip bcus of hitting characters and making their soul leave their body, but then after discussions and such, we decided to actually give Baki, Doppo, Katsumi and Yujiro Astral Projection only because they can remove their opponents souls from their body, and Tokigawa Soul manipulation because she can interact, catch souls from spiritual realm and put in a dead body and such, thus making it soul manip. (If there is something more someone can correct me).
 
That's not Astral Projection. Astral Projection is YOUR soul/consciousness leaving YOUR body intentionally, not you forcing someone's soul out of their body. If a character does that & can Astral Project, it's Soul Manipulation & Astral Projection.

Also i'm pretty sure Yujiro's wouldn't be Soul Manip since it's just his soul leaving his body after being killed.
 
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Drexkz said:
Well basically

The thread started with the characters having soul manip bcus of hitting characters and making their soul leave their body, but then after discussions and such, we decided to actually give Baki, Doppo, Katsumi and Yujiro Astral Projection only because they can remove their opponents souls from their body, and Tokigawa Soul manipulation because she can interact, catch souls from spiritual realm and put in a dead body and such, thus making it soul manip. (If there is something more someone can correct me).
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Nah there gonna have soul manipulation. I just kinda gave up with the argue atm then but now looking at it it’s not AP for the reasons above.

The main cast would have soul manipulation but Baki would have astral projection
 
Drexkz said:
Well basically

The thread started with the characters having soul manip bcus of hitting characters and making their soul leave their body, but then after discussions and such, we decided to actually give Baki, Doppo, Katsumi and Yujiro Astral Projection only because they can remove their opponents souls from their body, and Tokigawa Soul manipulation because she can interact, catch souls from spiritual realm and put in a dead body and such, thus making it soul manip. (If there is something more someone can correct me).
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@Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Nehz_XZX

What do you think about this? Help would be appreciated.
 
Antvasima said:
@Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Nehz_XZX

What do you think about this? Help would be appreciated.
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If it is canon that their souls really are leaving their bodies instead of this being just a matter of their perception or an artistic rendition of people falling unconscious and that causing this to happen is part of the characters' capabilities, then there shouldn't be a problem though I don't think that I really understand the whole situation as good as I should in order to judge the case.
 
Likewise. If it isn't just an artistic effect (which to be fair does happen a lot with Baki), then that solution sounds fine.
 
Thank you for the replies. I suppose that the change in question seems to have been accepted then.
 
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