Ayanokouji vs Conor (Detroit: Become Human) [0-2-0]

[Catbowtie]

This happens by the player messing up the QTEs which gives Connor a completely diffrent outcome

Is Connor successfully completing all the QTEs considered canon? I've seen Let's Plays of Detroit: Become Human and even with failed QTEs the person still gets to the same conclusion.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Is Connor successfully completing all the QTEs considered canon? I've seen Let's Plays of Detroit: Become Human and even with failed QTEs the person still gets to the same conclusion.

I think it's best to go by the same logic we use for the Henry Stickmin series (which is also a choose your own adventure game) in which every ending & choice is canon. So completing & failing QTEs are both equally as canon

 

[AThe1412]

I think it's best to go by the same logic we use for the Henry Stickmin series (which is also a choose your own adventure game) in which every ending & choice is canon. So completing & failing QTEs are both equally as canon

If we're going by SBA and taking a combatant at their best then Connor succeeding every QTEs is canon. There are also certain parts of the game where it's implied that Connor deliberately failed some QTEs due to being a Deviant such as during the fight with the stripper androids where he could have shot one of them while she was charging at him but chose not to.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Nikoandretti's arguments are more convincing to me. If ayano doesn't really really have feats to aim doding guns then I think Connor should take the W

 

[Robo432343]

wait i just realized Ayana's extraordinary genius is combat applicable
he skill stomps

 

[Catbowtie]

The fabled Skill Stomp?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Nikoandretti's arguments are more convincing to me. If ayano doesn't really really have feats to aim doding guns then I think Connor should take the W

Niko has yet to prove why Koji cannot aim dodge

Him saying he can't just because he has no feats is not proving anything, He isn't telling us why Koji's ANPR wouldn't work

Reggor has already showed feats which till now Niko couldn't refute

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I don't see why we're treating Aim-Dodging as this extremley difficult and impossible thing. When Ayano sees Connor aiming somewhere, it's not that hard to predict that Connor is going to shoot and Ayano can just get out of the way before Connor pulls the trigger. Aim-dodging really isn't this impossible task, someone with Ayano's level of AnPr could realistically predict that. If Ayano had to dodge multiple shooters, then I could see an arguement for him not being able to do that. But this is just one gun, one bullet at a time. Not really that hard to say where it's going to go.

Now for Connor predicting where Ayano will dodge too with his own precog is a diffrent debate, but the arguement of "he can't predict bullets" is stupid. It's not hard to predict where someone will shoot and just move out of the way, especially someone as skilled & smart as Ayano

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I don't see why we're treating Aim-Dodging as this extremley difficult and impossible thing. When Ayano sees Connor aiming somewhere, it's not that hard to predict that Connor is going to shoot and Ayano can just get out of the way before Connor pulls the trigger. Aim-dodging really isn't this impossible task, someone with Ayano's level of AnPr could realistically predict that. If Ayano had to dodge multiple shooters, then I could see an arguement for him not being able to do that. But this is just one gun, one bullet at a time. Not really that hard to say where it's going to go.

Now for Connor predicting where Ayano will dodge too with his own precog is a diffrent debate, but the arguement of "he can't predict bullets" is stupid. It's not hard to predict where someone will shoot and just move out of the way, especially someone as skilled & smart as Ayano

I 10000000% agree with this

 

[Catbowtie]

Also, robots made to do it's job perfectly with no room for error isn't something Ayano has never seen before.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Also, robots made to do it's job perfectly with no room for error isn't something Ayano has never seen before.

How does this help Connor exactly?

 

[First_Witch]

How does this help Connor exactly?

Read his post again.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Read his post again.

Hm

 

[Catbowtie]

How does this help Connor exactly?

I'm remaining neutral here. I meant that since Ayano has canonically went up against a chess bot made by the Prime Minister (Or equivalent, I can't find the scan XD), and outplayed it, he should be able of applying that same logic here (Maybe?) Lemme try to find the scan.

 

[Catbowtie]

He also reveals that Ayanokouji had made a move so great, that he had outperformed even his significant number of personnel and dedicated chess machines while doing the move. (Year 1 Volume 11)

Not the exact statement I was looking for. It was something along the lines of "out-played a machine that had the compiled knowledge of a significant number of chess masters"

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Niko has yet to prove why Koji cannot aim dodge

Him saying he can't just because he has no feats is not proving anything, He isn't telling us why Koji's ANPR wouldn't work

Reggor has already showed feats which till now Niko couldn't refute

I don't see why we're treating Aim-Dodging as this extremley difficult and impossible thing. When Ayano sees Connor aiming somewhere, it's not that hard to predict that Connor is going to shoot and Ayano can just get out of the way before Connor pulls the trigger. Aim-dodging really isn't this impossible task, someone with Ayano's level of AnPr could realistically predict that. If Ayano had to dodge multiple shooters, then I could see an arguement for him not being able to do that. But this is just one gun, one bullet at a time. Not really that hard to say where it's going to go.

Now for Connor predicting where Ayano will dodge too with his own precog is a diffrent debate, but the arguement of "he can't predict bullets" is stupid. It's not hard to predict where someone will shoot and just move out of the way, especially someone as skilled & smart as Ayano

I might sound stupid but bare with me, I think a lot of these has to do with how guns are portrayed in the series, not only this but other series in general as well.
There are verses where characters of the verses should scale massively above the speed of pulling a trigger, even if they're skilled, they're often stunned by it even though they theoretically should be able to intercept them without much difficulty. It can be due to narrative tension and the danger of guns being over-emphasized (due to it being able to kill in an instant if shot at the right place), but most of the time it seems to due to how the verses portray that they can't do anything in those cases even when they should be able to deal with them easily realistically, it's just how they're portrayed and you can't do anything about it.

What I'm trying to say is that, a lot of these characters are really skilled and are above the speed needed to easily dodge pulling a trigger, but they are portrayed to be not able to because it's just how they're written.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I'm not trying to assert that Ayanokoji can't do that but I happen to be one of those people who believe in burden of proof, so I think the Connor guy would win if he's with a gun.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Well, one thing which I can understand and can be worth debating from someone's end would be, does Ayanokouji accurately predict bullet trajectories? Like yes, it's common sense that Ayanokouji does predict hand movements, but after that, how will he predict bullet trajectories and move accordingly?

So just addressing that. He does have the feat in Year 2 Volume 7 where he predicted the trajectory of a bullet.

The only is that the predictions weren't accurate, and that was because there was a problem in the manufacturing of the gun, and there being single-millimeter discrepancies in the gun which shifted the trajectory of the gun a few centimeters away from where it was intended.

And he does have bullet trajectory prediction feats, he even suggested that the gun Housen picked up didn't have any problems or "single-millimeter discrepancies", and that's why Housen could hit the target.

So yeah, he can predict the hand movements (already said), and bullet trajectories as well. The one time he fails in doing that, it's quite literally the gun's fault lol. And I am pretty sure Connor doesn't use a mis-manufactured gun for sure.

Honestly it seems equally as impressive that after firing the gun twice and watching Housen and the others he was able to determine that each of the guns had those "single-millimeter discrepancies" even though most people's aim wouldn't be good due to lack of experience. He was able to see where they were aiming and took notice when the bullets hit the target where he predicted they would have had the gun been manufactured correctly. Now as Reggor pointed out this when also combined with his ANPR and E.G. rating is more than enough evidence to show that he could predict the trajectory of Conor's gun. Given that he could predict the bullet trajectory so accurately that he could tell the guns each had a defect as small as a single millimeter off based on where the bullets should have hit, he can easily predict exactly where Conor's shots will land.

0,25 s? They are subsonic, Ayanokouji even keeps his Subsonic travel speed, if he uses it mid fight it will be fatal for him.

The slow down is easily game mechanic, it happens when the play has to make quick time events of some sort, I remember it also happened when I was playing Until Down and you have to shoot, unless on the profile he has enchanted sense/perception manipulation due to seeing the world in slow motion then it's game mechanic.

It's also established that even if Conor can use his precog mid combat it isn't fast enough to be effective, and even so Ayanokouji still should have better ANPR overall.

I don't see why we're treating Aim-Dodging as this extremley difficult and impossible thing. When Ayano sees Connor aiming somewhere, it's not that hard to predict that Connor is going to shoot and Ayano can just get out of the way before Connor pulls the trigger. Aim-dodging really isn't this impossible task, someone with Ayano's level of AnPr could realistically predict that. If Ayano had to dodge multiple shooters, then I could see an arguement for him not being able to do that. But this is just one gun, one bullet at a time. Not really that hard to say where it's going to go.

Now for Connor predicting where Ayano will dodge too with his own precog is a diffrent debate, but the arguement of "he can't predict bullets" is stupid. It's not hard to predict where someone will shoot and just move out of the way, especially someone as skilled & smart as Ayano

Also agree here, based on previous arguments in this thread I see no reason why Ayanokouji can't aim dodge Conor.

That’s why I’ve only argued this point because this is what it boils down to. If you can prove he can dodge bullet projectiles like he does punches and kicks then we can debate hand to hand

Since the attempts to dismiss Koji's ability to predict bullets were invalid as he failed to address how ANPR is inapplicable, and he also asked for an actual feat of predicted bullets and Reggor provided a feat I imagine that means he would then agree that Koji can aim dodge at this point.

Given that Koji can aim-dodge Conor and he not only skill stomps but outscales with higher AP, Durability, massively higher LS, and higher intelligence, I vote Koji here.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Also, robots made to do it's job perfectly with no room for error isn't something Ayano has never seen before.

That's just narratives. Ayanokouji also has statements about his visualization being fault-proof in Year 2 Volume 4, which I already gave. Moreover, Ayanokouji also is smarter (heavily so), this just makes it worse for Connor. Connor will still make mistakes if it is against a being with higher perfection. No, Ayanokouji just proves to be better here imo.

Also, I don't think I have voted till now, so I will vote for Ayanokouji, upon reading the arguments from both the sides.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

This is the current votes (correct me if i am wrong though)

Koji - Zetsu, Hunter and Reggor

Connor - Dino and Niko

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

It's also established that even if Conor can use his precog mid combat it isn't fast enough to be effective, and even so Ayanokouji still should have better ANPR overall.

We've already discussed that it would be fast enough to use in battle, Connor used it to dodge bullets and Markus has used it mid-battle several times, so Connor's precog would still be fast enough to work here, though I think that they're more-or-less equal in precog/AnPr abilities

 

[XxZetsuxX]

We've already discussed that it would be fast enough to use in battle, Connor used it to dodge bullets and Markus has used it mid-battle several times, so Connor's precog would still be fast enough to work here, though I think that they're more-or-less equal in precog/AnPr abilities

Idk, Koji has outpredicted a supercomputer from the government

Given, It's a chess machine (Which legit predicts all possible outcomes the person makes and does better moves to win or smth) but it shouldn't be ignored

I'd give the advantage to Koji in ANPR ngl

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Yeah, I'm sticking with my vote for Koji. His AnPr is just as good if not better than Connors, and Ayano sould be more than capable of closing the distance between him & Conner, where Conner stands pretty much no chance unless he can get a lucky shot off

 

[XxZetsuxX]

7 - Koji (Zetsu, Primal, Catbowtie, Shadow, Satella, Hunter and Reggor)

2 - Connor (Dino and Niko)

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

We've already discussed that it would be fast enough to use in battle, Connor used it to dodge bullets and Markus has used it mid-battle several times, so Connor's precog would still be fast enough to work here, though I think that they're more-or-less equal in precog/AnPr abilities

I wasn't trying to say Conor "couldn't" use it mid battle but based on previous responses it would take too long to be effective to use mid battle due to subsonic speed. If this is incorrect then mb.

Also as to them being relative in ANPR/precog, that seems fair enough. While I would still have Koji taking the edge here based on what I have seen of Conor's feats in this thread. I would also say Koji takes the edge here since he as a resistance to ANPR while I don't believe Conor does which is why in a battle of ANPR/precog I have Koji above.

 

[Catbowtie]

Coming in to say that I'll go ahead and vote for Koji. Connor doesn't have anything special going for him beside the (maybe?) precog, so Koji should out ANPR and beat him.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

i think i will go kouji fra

 

[Shadowslash125]

Yup, Koji fra too.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Grace

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Grace period has ended, I will be adding the matches to their profiles