ThePrimalHunter
He/Him- 3,668
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He has activley used the precog in the middle of combat though, such as with the bullet dodging. That doesn't really matter anyways as Ayano's ANPR >= Connor's precog, and he has better skill
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Ayanokouji vs Conor (Detroit: Become Human) [0-2-0]
- Thread starter Nikoandretti
- Start date
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- #42
For now I vote Connor unless someone can prove he can predict bullet trajectories then we can discuss the hand to hand aspect but if he can’t get past the gun he will be shot
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I think he dodged because they had lasers more than predicting stuff, I think that's just me though
ThePrimalHunter
He/Him- 3,668
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Connor only survived when he got hit by the trucks mirror, which has less weight. The feat itself proves this.
Again, Connor died when he got hit head-on
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I showed you this
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how so to the last part? From what I remember from the game they seem to be even in that category
ThePrimalHunter
He/Him- 3,668
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That gun the other android is shooting was never shown to have a laser on it, those red lines were Connor predicting the bullets path
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Then nvm
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Where was it stated the mirror hit him because I have the screenshot of him taking the hit head on . Entire screen is black from the truck hitting him head on, then when he got his balance back he was hit again. If it was a mirror there should have been a glass sound, not a solid sound
RoggerReggor
He/Him- 2,292
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They do have the feats for aim-dodging projectiles. Like Ichika has the feat of predicting the trajectory of a volleyball even when the person who threw the volleyball (Ibuki) had changed their playing style completely.
And Ayanokouji has much better AnPr and his tactic is also completely different from Ichika.
Ichika uses her intuition after she analyzes her opponents, but Ayanokouji does that from the start of the battle with just the raw analysis (displayed in the fight with Tsukishiro and Shiba).
Also, I don't know why it is thought that aim-dodging bullets cannot be done through AnPr of H2H fights, considering how the firer of the gun has to also move their hands in accordance, and considering how buffed Ayanokouji is in AnPr, he would easily predict the hand movements. It isn't like Connor uses an automated cannonball in his hand which basically has no need for arm movements.
For the reasons of Ayanokouji being smarter than Connor and also having an AnPr which is canonically compared to things like reading minds of others, I believe Ayanokouji will find a way of hitting Connor despite Connor's precognition.
Still, I will not be voting for now.
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- #52
This does not apply to guns it’s an apples to oranges comparison. You can’t assume someone can predict guns because they can do it with hand to hand, unless they have feats to back up the assumption
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It's still a projectile
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- #54
what is the “FRA” my points haven’t been addressed and he doesn’t one shot someone that scales higher. You have to give me a valid reason I don’t see any valid reasons to count your vote.
I haven’t even counted mine yet because the winner is still unclear
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- #55
You think guns are the same as every projectile?
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The valid reason being Koji's ANPR is able to make him aim dodge
You need to move your hands in order to fire the gun, Koji just needs to look at his hand and direction Connor is pointing
It's not something out of this world
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- #57
I agree with the ANPR point. He has the best in cote from what I’ve read.They do have the feats for aim-dodging projectiles. Like Ichika has the feat of predicting the trajectory of a volleyball even when the person who threw the volleyball (Ibuki) had changed their playing style completely.
And Ayanokouji has much better AnPr and his tactic is also completely different from Ichika.
This doesn’t help with predicting gun bullet trajectories
Because to claim someone can do something you have to atleast show them doing it for it to be validated. Just like if someone claims a character uses martial arts but the only fighting we ever see is throwing wild punches. Thats not martial arts even if it’s fighting. The same applies here.
Ayanokouji is not clairvoyant that was likely a metaphor, however his ANPR in combat I believe is better. He just has to get past the gun, which I haven’t seen a valid reason to say he can.
Chad response. Everybody still sorting out the match.
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- #58
That’s not how it works at all man, come on. If he could do it, there would be feats for it and they would also be on his profile because that’s something notable for a character like Ayanokouji. However if he has never even shown to beat someone wielding a gun, I won’t assume he can dodge bullet projectiles that’s giving him an ability he never even showcased
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- #59
I’m enjoying this debate. I made another Ayanokouji thread last night, if you guys are interested in an even closer nail biter fight
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Look, If he can predict body movement seen in his ANPR section
Tell me why he wouldn't be able to look at Connor's fingers to know when he would shoot
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- #61
Because he has never shown us he can do it to say he can. Thats how feats work.
I’ll prove it even more for you how invalid it is. If you were to write he could predict bullet trajectories on his profile with no scans or a chapter reference, then mods and other members of wiki would remove and give you a strike due to the misinformation it gives without proof of action.
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You still did not answer me
Koji can predict via body movement, Tell me, If you can do that, What stops Koji to look at his fingers and the direction the gun is pointing
The bullet only goes in a straight line
Koji's speed is subsonic and he also has sub reaction speed
He has enough reaction and speed to evade everything and get out of his aim pretty quickly
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- #63
This is getting repetitive bro I’m ngl. Neither of these things help his case.
RoggerReggor
He/Him- 2,292
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Yes, and he massively scales above many characters.
Well, from what we see, it wouldn't be wrong if something still perceived him as a clairvoyant just from the outside.
Ayanokouji in Year 1 Volume 1 predicted that Manabu will throw Suzune on the ground despite Manabu having only moved forward (like Manabu had barely even started to get in the position to start throwing Suzune on the ground). Manabu even praised him for that.
In Year 2 Volume 1, he predicted Housen very unnaturally. He predicted that Housen was going to harm himself and not him all while Housen was still having a knife pointed ahead and there was no way someone could predict something like that (scans).
In Year 1 Volume 7, Ayanokouji predicted a stream of attacks from Ryuuen even when Ryuuen uses a fighting tactic (unknowingly so) of somehow resisting himself being analyzed.
In Year 2 Volume 4, Ayanokouji was fighting 2 people with perfect coordination - Tsukishiro and Shiba. And he just predicted attacks from two different people even before they had begun to even initiate the attacks, and all his predictions also happen to be true (scans). He's so insanely buffed in AnPr that he predicted that someone would throw sand at him just because they looked down at their feet, and also predicted that his opponent possessed a stun gun very accurately (scans).
Yes. He isn't a clairvoyant, but whatever he does isn't different from what a clairvoyant would do (without reading minds though). And yes, as you said, he has never predicted bullet trajectories, but again, a character much weaker than him in both AnPr and skills could predict trajectories of a projectile despite there being an absolute change of rhythm in their movements. He has predicted people very illogically just out of thin air. He legit just thinks of everything which can go physically wrong, and that's why, he determines which move is the best to do, using an element of intuition in his ability along with the concreteness in prediction coming from the analysis of upper limits. Considering how he predicts a person anyhow, I don't see how Connor can adjust to that.
I don't think reaching to Connor and knocking off the gun will be a big problem to Ayanokouji (like I don't think if it will be a problem in the first place). Predicting trajectories of a bullet in reality also happens to be easier than predicting volleyball trajectories because a bullet travels in a straight path, and it will travel in the path the gun is pointed towards when the firer fires the gun, so all an AnPr user needs to do is predict the arm movements, and not the trajectory of a bullet in actuality (because bullet isn't unpredictable and travels in a straight path invariably). And btw, this is what an AnPr user would do through conventional basis, Ayanokouji is very different, and he predicts stuff out of just thin air, he doesn't even need to witness any twitching of shoulders or initial micromovements but he just predicts his opponent like he saw them from the future.
Yes, I do happen to be unknown about the most Connor has to offer. Like whether he has any way of doing anything after his gun drops down.
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- #65
In combat experience and intelligence yes, not in AP and durability . Thats a misconception about the verse.
It would be an assumption either way tho, and can’t be used.
I’ve already addressed these before. They don’t prove he can dodge bullet projectiles, just are combat predicting feats and information analysis
all of this is impressive but it just doesn’t prove how it applies to predicting gun trajectories. As detailed as these feats are there would be one for it if thats the case. No characters gets to use feats they never shown, you need actual feats.
This is all assumption. Cant use assumption as a reasoning for a vote. There has so be concrete evidence to buff a claim so that it can’t be refuted. Everything you are saying can be refuted with lack of feats/proof. We haven’t even seen an actual gun in this verse.
ThePrimalHunter
He/Him- 3,668
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So to help out with this debate, Connor is still decently skilled without the use of his gun, with probably his most impressive feat being fighting off and defeating several US Army soldiers with his bare hands even though the soldiers were armed. He has also done simular feats with his gun, such as here & here
I'm not super knowledgable on Ayano's skill, but this is some of Connor's more impressive feats
I'm not super knowledgable on Ayano's skill, but this is some of Connor's more impressive feats
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Ayanokouji skill feats are the following;
The white room is stated to create artificial geniuses in combat and intelligence
Ayanokoji was stated to be a genius among geniuses
He has stayed there for 14 years in total with a total of 15330 number of fights with the white room stating they fought 3 times per day
Ayanokouji trained Jeet Kune Do, Boxing, Karate, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Aikido, Taijutsu and Judo in the WR
Jeet Kune Do and Taijutsu is a composite martial arts, Meaning Ayanokouji knows more than 20 martial arts;
- Wing Chun, Tai Chi, taekwondo, boxing, fencing and jujutsu, fencing, arnis, judo, Wrestling, Mixed Martial Arts, Emerson Combat System, Savate and Wei Kuen Do for Jeet Kune do
- Gendai Goshin Jutsu, Yamabujin Goshin-Jutsu, Fuji Ryu Goshindo JiuJitsu, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Kenpo for Taijtusu
He has a perfect record of wins against professional fighters
His adaptability allowed him to go from losing in the first match to winning in the 2nd round against Shiro, With Shiro stating after Ayanokouji wins the gap between them keeps increasing more and more
Ayanokouji is superior in terms of skills against Manabu who is a 5th dan in karate where you need more than 20+ years to achieve this level of mastery and 4th dan in aikido where you need more than 15+ years of training to achieve this level of mastery and Manabu is just 18 years old
Ayanokouji also knows the various weak points of the human body and used them to win against 6 fighters who were stated by Koji himself that they were stronger than him physically
Has experience in fighting people who are far stronger and faster than himself such as the adults they were training with who were masters in their fields
Ayanokouji was also stated by age 9 to have already defeated every instructor who teached him everything he knows
Stated that he has been numerous times in absurd and disadvantages situations drilled into him as a kid
The White Room also stated that the 6th generation and 7th generation attempted the level 5 and 6 and they were stated to have been obliterated further showing how insane the level 10 really is, With the Beta Curriculum stated to be in a different dimension compared to the level 10
It was stated that he never reached his "plateau" which means he never reached the full potential despite the white room training being supposed to improve human abilities at a young age and was stated to be a monster by his own father
Was also trained on how to use weapons such as the baton, Knife and a taser
The white room also trains the user's analytical abilities of the subject
Was outperforming the white room training
The fifth generation of the white room who had a weaker training regime were capable of measuring distance between them and their opponent without looking, Takuya being able to analyze upon abilities and deduce that Sakayanagi was the one in control of majority of the 1st Years, Yagami is also showned to be capable of seeing through lies, And Ichika was able to gap the strength between her, and Suzune and Ibuki and was able to completely analyze her opponents in the volleyball match of Year 2 Sports Festival, The white room students are showned to be able to use this ability due to the white room enviroment, They can memorize attack patterns and Predict trajetories of flying objects as they spent their entire life and learned everything they know there
Tremendously more skilled than Ichika Amasawa and Takuya Yagami who did the 4th level of the white room
Got an idea of his opponents being much stronger than the adults he had fought before and having been in an uphill battle just upon analyzing their movements, chose a weapon to fight them upon looking at the pros and cons of a given weapon upon the information
He is capable of copying skills by absorbing visual and verbal information perfectly, Could also learn archery by watching tutorial videos and surpassed Ichika who had been training a day prior
Can gauge the opponent strength by mere glancing and know what martial arts they are using with a glance
Is massively superior to the likes of Ichika Amasawa due to much harder curriculum and should have learnt the abilities of likes of Ichika much before. Can determine each and every possibility to visualize the future to some extent. Ayanokouji was able to determine that Manabu was aiming to throw his sister when he was still pinning her and even asked him to confirm it, on hearing the predictions, Manabu also asks Ayanokouji on how was he able to figure out what he was trying to do. Ayanokouji can out-predict his opponents after he completely understands their upper limit, this has been displayed when Ayanokouji misreads Ryuuen's upper limit and then corrects it, it has been confirmed when Tsukishiro and Shiba deliberately tried to hide their abilities to prevent Ayanokouji from gaining an advantage. However, He can use his intuition to read his opponents and also determine their abilities as well. Ayanokouji also analyzes Hōsen from the sides and predicts that he was aiming to harm himself, something which cannot be predicted from the posture Hōsen was in
Defeated Tsukishiro, an Assassin that was once hired by a Prime Minister, who he admitted was on his level.
Held off Tsukishiro/Shiba who are both White Room agents or instructors
Ayanokouji notes exactly how Tsukishiro had read 99% of his mind which was him feeding Tsukishiro false information and that he won't let him analyze his true thoughts/intentions which was the 1%.
Can kill his presence. He also followed several people without being noticed.
Said it himself that he was capable of fighting Tsubasa Nanase even with his eyes closed and Ibuki too
He severely outskills
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This is better than anything Koji has shown . Koji fights mostly students with a sprinkle of skilled fighters like the teachers and WR students
They are about even in terms of combat I’m familiar with both verses. Conor has more hand to hand feats as cote doesn’t focus on fighting as much
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Conor definitely has the better hand to hand feats due to him having more showings and doing it to better opposition, he also has better stamina being an android and never tiring while Koji himself has made statements that would put his stamina on a lower scale Connor also doesn’t feel fear
ThePrimalHunter
He/Him- 3,668
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So if things to hand-to-hand, Connor's screwed, as Ayano's ANPR is on the same level if not better than Connors Precog, and he has such a skill advantage it's not even funny
Connors best bet is just shooting Ayano to death
Connors best bet is just shooting Ayano to death
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Which was already argued that Koji could bypass this easily with aim dodging and op ANPR
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I haven’t seen anything that confirms this to be true tbh. They about even to me
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This is just from your belief then
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You can’t say someone can aim dodge without aim dodging feats . That’s literally a fallacy
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- #76
He isn’t even fighting the same tier of competition. Tsukishiro and Shiro don’t have feats to claim they are rated higher than them.
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Body movement, You keep dismissing this
Body movement means you are looking at your opponent's body to predict their next move which Koji has broken feats in it
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Tsukishiro is legit stated to have the same skill level by Koji himself
Moreover Tsukishiro and Shiba had prep time + prior knowledge + BIQ (Tsukishiro) comparable to Koji + Made a strategy to beat Koji in advance + Koji was dehydrated, tired and hungry
And Koji still outpredicted the hell out of them
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And you keep dismissing and ignoring the fact you’re trying to use hand to hand combat prediction feats to apply to aim dodging bullets trajectories with no feats of it. You can’t even back up the claim all you do is use hand to hand statements. Apples to oranges
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This is getting ridiculous ngl
Bullets go in a STRAIGHT line
Koji just needs to LOOK at his fingers via predicting body movement which Koji has alot of broken feats in it
Koji also just needs to LOOK at the direction the gun is pointing
