Ayanokoji (Classroom Of The Elite) Downgrade

[Keeweed]

why do you assume the steel is the only thing taking damage?

anything in your foot is far less durable than steel, a street level character would take several damage for doing it overtime

Except Ayanokoji’s foot would be more durable if it was 9-C. In the same way it would be if he was 9-B. He’s not breaking his foot because it would be a higher level into 9-C than steel, but that doesn’t require him to be wall level. Because fragmenting and especially denting steel isn’t close to 9-B by itself. There is no reason to assume he’s 9-B versus just being the baseline requirements above steel since we have no clue how much he damages over any time frame.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Both these and Ryuuen's feat are just basic intimidation which isn't anything supernatural.

They stunned them with fear

These aren't supernatural at all as the instructors in the white room don't even use supernatural factors to induce depression or physical pain. This is just good willpower.

You don't need supernatural factors to have supernatural willpower

You can't just skip tiers and to upgrade characters like that lol. A character who can oneshot a Street Lvl character should just have "At Least Street Level, Likely Higher" or something like that, not Wall Level.

It adds more consistency for the wall level

Stop using stuff that was debunked a LONG time ago.

Street level people aren't capable of doing that

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Why on Earth did you think it was a good idea to spam the thread ?!!?!

Was not my intention

Is this some sort of derailing tactic to make the thread seem less appealing to staff ?

Didn't even this was a thing lol, I'm derailing as i'm talking about what you said in the OP

Because from what I've seen in your past threads you don't usually reply to things in this sort of manner. It's incredibly annoying.

It's like this;

I post something, Then i'm thinking and searching on what to say which takes awhile

 

[Keeweed]

It would added consistency to 9-B if he had a 9-B feat. But he doesn’t, because we don’t know what he did to the steel and how long he did it. The baseline to be a feat to begin with.

 

[Dinozxd]

LS - Class 1 (Can tackle against animals at around their sizes)

Considering Koenji was fighting one, The Ussuri boar charged at him and Koenji blocked it, Hence Class 1

This assumption is baseless as it doesn't involve a scan at all. Koenji's profile only has one "statement" of him wrestling a boar (If you can even call it that) which I presented somewhere above. That scan isn't solid enough to qualify for a "Possibly" Class 1 rating, let alone an actual one.

Just to add, Ryuuen also has Class 1 LS through:

"Can throw a ladder and iron pipes at Ayanokoji Kiyotaka"

I don't think I have to explain how tossing some metal bars over does NOT qualify for Class 1 LS.

 

[Keeweed]

That would entirely depend on the size, amount, and speed of the bars. I’ve lifted many steel pipes in my job and I’m definitely not above average. Though I won’t be surprised if that could be Class 1. I just wanted to point out how it could easily not be Class 1.

 

[Vzearr]

Fear inducement - Hirata said that the reason he and Karuizawa had to spill their guts was because of Kiyotaka's eyes, which, in a metaphorical sense, carry abysmal darkness that consumes its prey, Stunned Nagumo with his killing intent)

This isn't supernatural at all, you are also sending me scans of which I know close to nothing of the context behind them or what happens afterwards.

Paralysis inducement

What ?

As for Supernatural willpower it's also on the WR page right below it

Resistence to Pain - (The White Room is a hellish place where kids are regularly beaten to the point they have hard time to breath and have to get up despite being tired and full of injuries which also includes vomiting, Has been stated to give trauma, Depression and Physical paralysis, Has been showned kids having what seems to have a heart/Panic attack, And have been studying on a daily basis without breaks, Making all of the kids be tired mentally and physically, The White Room also implied that kids have died in the White Room)

This is resistance, not supernatural willpower, although this is still wrong. Resistance is the power to withstand the effects of certain abilities through varying means. The white room students don't actually seem to be resistant to any of this pain, they all seem to still be prone to it so why would this even be considered resistance.

This should grant supernatural willpower easy

Tanking things and going through mental torture isn't supernatural levels of willpower

As for the AP, See it like this;

Ibuki gets one shotted by Ayanokoji

Shiba was stated to have the same strenght as a supressed Ayanokoji, Which means he could one shot her too

However, Later in the fight, Ayanokoji himself says he can one shot Shiba

Ayanokoji also can create shockwaves capable of making people's hair fly upwards which by no means a street level person can do it and mind you Ayanokoji was dehydrated, hungry and tired while making this feat

1. One shotting isn't a multiplier for anything and isn't allowed to be used on profiles

2. Same point as point 1

3. Same point as 1

4. This is not a shockwave, and isn't depicted to be a shockwave judging by his profile, so again, another time you guys have used flowery language to make these characters seem stronger. Please stop this.

LS - Class 1 (Can tackle against animals at around their sizes)

Considering Koenji was fighting one, The Ussuri boar charged at him and Koenji blocked it, Hence Class 1

This would be Durability not LS.

 

[Dinozxd]

They stunned them with fear

IRL humans can freeze in fear as well. Like I said, intimidation isn't Fear Manipulation.

You don't need supernatural factors to have supernatural willpower

I think the bolded parts speak for theirself.

It adds more consistency for the wall level

That's still not how that works.

Street level people aren't capable of doing that

 

[Zefra3011]

Because fragmenting and especially denting steel isn’t close to 9-B by itself.

if you only look at the joules sure but with this logic I can fragment steel myself while simply being athletic human, assuming a 1cm^3 of steel I would need like 250-350 Joule to fragment it, so eventually I will be able to do open an hole in the elevator with enough time, you can't just look at the joules, my bones are still street to street+ (is likely the energy you need to break a bone) tho I would be the only one taking damage, come on, it should be common logic that to crack walls and to bend steel you are bare minimum wall, the whole damage would only be tanked by your body otherwise.

 

[Dinozxd]

This is resistance, not supernatural willpower, although this is still wrong. Resistance is the power to withstand the effects of certain abilities through varying means. The white room students don't actually seem to be resistant to any of this pain, they all seem to still be prone to it so why would this even be considered resistance.

The "Resistence to Pain" stuff might be worth adding to the OP. Just sayin...

 

[Keeweed]

Yeah you can fragment steel as an athletic human though. People kick down locked doors all the time. Real athletic humans can also bend steel. Why are you saying that like it’s impossible and like that actual real energy requirement doesn’t make sense. So he would just need to keep bending small amounts of steel until he can fit through. Nothing states he can do it quickly, and in fact the opposite is implied since he specifically states he can’t break the door down. If he was 9-B he could easily do so in a minute at worst.

 

[Dinozxd]

@Zefra3011 @Keeweed Do you guys mind dropping this debate if it's not related to the CRT? The thread already reached page 2 within hours.

 

[Zefra3011]

first, yes, I already did everything I had to say

second, uh... it's related...?

 

[Keeweed]

It’s ap, that’s as related as it gets though. However, I am busy so I could wait a bit until everything else is settled.

 

[Vzearr]

first, yes, I already did everything I had to say

second, uh... it's related...?

Your argument is baseless if you can't even tear down my point that maybe Ayanokouji can only rip open the elevator doors.

 

[Dinozxd]

second, uh... it's related...?

I don't think the main point of the OP isn't the "the feat could've taken hours" stuff. It's probably the fact that how it doesn't make sense to take this statement as an AP statement when Koji himself states that it's impossible to strike through the elevator door.

 

[Keeweed]

But whether or not it would be downgraded is in the topic of the op. That usually means people can talk about it. But I mean, me going now would be good time for me, so eh.

 

[Zefra3011]

Although I do think its an outlier and could possibly refer to him pushing the doors open.

I'm not contesting that part, I'm only contesting the "we don't know in how many kicks so it might still be street"

Your argument is baseless if you can't even tear down my point that maybe Ayanokouji can only rip open the elevator doors.

cool

for all the reader knows Ayanokouji could be in there for an hour just kicking the door to create an opening.

I don't think the main point of the OP isn't the "the feat could've taken hours" stuff. It's probably the fact that how it doesn't make sense to take this statement as an AP statement when Koji himself states that it's impossible to strike through the elevator door.

it's both, anyway, he talks about the entire door, the context is outright "I can't do much about the entire thing but I can do it on a smaller part"

 

[Fezzih_007]

Damn, i got ninja again, i actually want to downgrade myself.

Anyway, i agree.

 

[Dinozxd]

it's both, anyway, he talks about the entire door, the context is outright "I can't do much about the entire thing but I can do it on a smaller part"

"Opening up a n oppnening" doesn't imitate striking at all imo. Also again, this is just a statement so at best he should go back to his old rating of "At Least Street Level, Possibly Wall Level" as this is still a statement at the end of the day.

 

[Zefra3011]

dude, its the third time I say I'm not contesting that part but only the "He could have done it hours"

 

[Dinozxd]

dude, its the third time I say I'm not contesting that part but only the "He could have done it hours"

oh shi my bad then

 

[MarkGoldbridge]

especially denting steel isn’t close to 9-B by itself

Fr, even Mr. White can do that

 

[MarkGoldbridge]

The "Resistence to Pain" stuff might be worth adding to the OP. Just sayin...

Yeah, IIRC they are treated as stamina feats.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fear manipulation: Fear manipulation is defined as the ability in which a character can inflict a level of "fear" on a target using supernatural means. Ayanokouji has fear manipulation from this: "Hirata said that the reason he and Karuizawa had to spill their guts was because of Kiyotaka's eyes, which, in a metaphorical sense, carry abysmal darkness that consumes its prey"

There is no evidence behind this being supernatural. Simply staring at someone and making them tell you a secret isn't even close to fear manipulation, its a normal thing that even some humans can do.

I agree, no complaints here.

Supernatural willpower: Supernatural willpower is the ability to exceed one's own limits through sheer willpower to a degree extremely far beyond real human standards. Ayanokouji has this because white room students (which is apparently a facility aimed at training kids to make them be artificial geniuses in combat and have inhuman strength) take beatings often and are mentally and physically exhausted from the harsh environment they're in.

This goes against the definition of supernatural willpower. Taking beatings and being mentally and physically exhausted doesn't mean you have willpower above the degree of real human standards. Peak human willpower is immense, humans like Jacques Roellinger survived getting shot, cut and stabbed numerous times, getting tortured by burning splinters of wood on his chest, having a fragment of an exploding shell embedded in his thigh, having his lungs damaged by a passing bullet, getting bayonetted through the liver and diaphragm, and finally being shot right through the jaw. His only lingering ill effect was a stiff knee. Human's like Andreas Mihavecz survived 18 days with no food and very minimal water, there are more examples here but again, this isn't supernatural willpower.

Eyup.

Resistance to Pain: Resistance is the power to withstand the effects of certain abilities through varying means.

The white room students don't actually seem to be resistant to any of the pain they are subject, they all seem to still be prone to it so why would this even be considered resistance.

If they have an elevated endurance against pain, could be considered a limited resistance, but normally resistance to pain is limited to people that have specifically dampened or totally removed sensations of pain (for example, the protagonist of Kick Ass). Without elaboration, I'd agree with removal.

1. I read the "feat" and Ayanokouji himself states that "breaking it open is impossible" but he may be able to "open up a small opening". Personally I believe this feat is easy to dictate, he can't punch or kick a hole through the door but he can open the elevator doors just enough to fit through. This is my personal bidding and if you don't agree with it that's fine, this feat still couldn't possibly be used to give him a set in stone wall level rating as he doesn't kick a hole through the door, is unsure if he even can ("I might be") and doesn't specify the amount of punches (kicks) it would take for him to do it, for all the reader knows Ayanokouji could be in there for an hour just kicking the door to create an opening.

The feat seems to imply he didn't actually do it and was unsure of whether he could, he only seemed confident in opening it a little. So I'd agree with your interpretation more than scaling him to the destruction of the door.

2. Breaking bones scales from street-street+ and beating a set amount of men doesn't scale to durability nor AP, it scales to endurance and stamina

Correct, yes.

3. Taking a beating that leaves children with no air to breathe likely wouldn't even scale to athlete levels of AP let alone wall level

Ditto.

4. For one, this should count as a "possibly" rating as Kiryuuin didn't even do the feat. Two, the calc uses the width of the chair as the thickness of the chair. Three, the calc assumes she fragments the entire chair with no evidence. Possibly "destroying" a chair doesn't necessarily mean fragmenting the entire chair, here are countless examples of what come up when you search up destroyed chairs on google, none of these point to the chairs being fragmented to the point where it doesn't even look like a chair anymore, the calc just assumes she is capable of fragmenting the entire chair when we don't know what Ayanokouji meant, if he meant breaking a leg or breaking an arm rest ect. I also found this video of a (likely) fan of the series who thinks that Ibuki and Fuuka are somewhat comparable, and looking at the Classroom of the elite verse page it seems Ibuki can only wobble and slightly dent an elevator door, now if Fuuka or Ayanokouji scales to 10 megajoules it would suggest they have an AP 2500x higher then Ibuki and most other characters in the verse which would mean that Fuuka should technically be able to kill most of the verse with a kick (which isn't true).

That thread didn't receive a single staff vote as far as I can tell. It wasn't accepted, although it may have been erroneously applied.

Ayanokouji scales to a character named Koenji who can grapple with a boar, this apparently gives him class 1 scaling.

To preface this I think boar scale to cattle, and boar's can wrestle cattle meaning they apparently scale to the weight of cattle ? This is pretty illogical, I've wrestled bigger people and trust me I could not lift them, scaling to something because you can wrestle it or even take it down is a stretch.

I'd also like to add that this man wrestled with a wild boar, and no human scales to class 1.

Yeah, no idea why you'd give Class 1 for that. Our own page awards them Class 1 only for a running charge, just grappling with them normally can be done arguably with Regular Human levels of lifting strength.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

The Ayanokoji key organization CRT was about giving wall level baseline

The chair CRT however is to apply the 96 KJ feat aka the chair feat to everyone who scales to it

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Noted. It wasn't accepted, though.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

??? Since when?

DarkDragonMedeus and Dereck accepted, I don't follow what you mean here???

 

[XxZetsuxX]

 

[XxZetsuxX]

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I'm not blind

 

[Dinozxd]

I think he's talking about the chair CRT...

 

[XxZetsuxX]

You guys are assuming the ayanokoji crt was made to get him to 96KJ no? That's what i'm saying

It was just to make him baseline wall level and nothing else

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think he's talking about the chair CRT...

I was, yeah. It was the one linked in the OP and touted as "accepted", but there's no actual staff response on it.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

DarkDragonMedeus also accepted

We just need 1 staff vote

 

[Dinozxd]

You guys are assuming the ayanokoji crt was made to get him to 96KJ no? That's what i'm saying

Ummmm, No? We never assumed that in the first place as Ayanokouji CRT was created before the chair CRT lol

 

[XxZetsuxX]

 

[RoggerReggor]

I agree with this reasoning for the fear manip part
The supernatural willpower still need a bit explaining
So in other words COTE profiles need to be revamp, replace to old ones and add some new wording

Yeah. We give supernatural willpower to only those who survived level 10 and were not mentally traumatized for the rest of their lives as there's a statement by Ayanokouji where he specifically mentions that even he was shocked that Yuki hadn't died, and the fact that he actually still referred to her as a dead person.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

DarkDragonMedeus also accepted

We just need 1 staff vote

DDM ought to post that to the thread, and no, you need two.

 

[RoggerReggor]

This is not an evidence of it being supernatural.

It actually is. They had no reasons for him being scary.

This also is not evidence of it being supernatural. People can generally be scared of you even if you have no reputation.

Except for the fact that Ayanokouji actually has the 5th most attractive face in the entire school and people don't be afraid of him. His gaze actually influences Hirata to speak his secrets. I don't know what that would be if someone were to do that to me IRL. It's definitely supernatural lol.

Seriously gazing upon someone and scaring them isn't fear manipulation. It's social influencing. The things you name literally fall under none of the types of fear manipulation

Social Influencing is completely different, not only does it have different consequences, but Social Influencing has "cause-caused" relation, while Fear Manipulation is strictly just "caused". It's fear inducement, it was decided before.

You give no evidence behind this so Its a baseless claim to me.

Not to me or other users who've agreed.

This correlates more to intelligence, of course there is a sense of will power behind it but it's most certainly not inhuman levels of willpower

I mean, again this isn't really supernatural willpower, alot of humans could take this and not k*ll themselves. Especially peak humans with good mental states and strong willpower.

Ok, so the fact that Ayanokouji legit mentioned that a student could even die from the mental trauma isn't supposedly "enough" evidence. I am not even going to mention that you basically ignored what I said. Suzukake had made a program which passed humans beyond what they were truly capable of. Not only that, but they were even bullied by the instructors themselves, to the point where many had to just drop out.

This would be a second time when I tell you to not compare some adult peak human to a kid. And no, read V0, these kids were surpassing adults by the age of 9, it isn't like they are being inferior to narratively normal people in any way.

It is a debate if I see it as a different meaning.

I mentioned various parts from the scans itself. Let me tell you a sentence.

"I think eating a sandwich here would likely be the cheapest and the most delicious option. I think I would eat some noodles upon my previous reasoning." - This sentence looks contradicted, right? The same would happen if someone were to interpret the elevator scene like you do. This isn't something like "opinion-based", the fact that they had to "crawl" means that they will have to get into a small shape.

And no, Ayanokouji wouldn't even be able to kick this for 10 minutes, we are talking about full-power hits. I can genuinely debate about how he would do it in a few hits or lower. Why not? Because around this time, he was dying from a heatstroke, had been there for around 30 minutes and needed immediate medical help as soon as he escaped the elevator. It doesn't make sense for someone highly weakened to keep kicking an elevator for an entire hour, specially when someone he casually one-shot, Ibuki, could leave a large dent on the wall of the elevator.

Which is why I don't believe it can even contribute to his rating. This could scale to him kicking the door down for hours and we don't know it. At most its a "possibly" rating

This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about and needs to be discussed in its own thread.

You completely ignored my points of examples the author could mean by "broken".

I'd also like to add your calculation is completely and utterly wrong, you assume that the entire chair is made of stainless steel (like the entire chair, you literally assumed there is no cushioning or anything), you also get the chair seat thickness wrong.

Please do not do stuff like this, it clearly states she left dent not a large dent. Using flowery language like this is scummy.

Again, I do not believe boars scale to class 1.

I will address this later, I currently have work.