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We have, for no other verse, distinguished between "electricity properties" and "lightning properties".
Literally nowhere.
Literally nowhere.
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ATLA Lightning Bending and Speed Revision
- Thread starter LoudCloud
- Start date
- Status
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I also got to point out that most cinematic, animated, or game time frames typically take place in slow motion; especially during aim dodging feats. We can't just assume that every scene outside of time skip takes place in real time. Trust me, if we did that, then a lot of characters would be getting speed downplay. For example, it's like saying that bullets in the Matrix series are below human level speed, or like saying The Flash isn't even subsonic let alone MFTL+ because the viewers see him move on screen.
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If it looks like lightning, is stated to be electricity, has some properties of lightning and is produced similarly to real lightning, then logic dictates that it moves at the speed of Lightning.
Otherwise you are saying that it literally has all properties of lightning except one, which is ludicrous.
Otherwise you are saying that it literally has all properties of lightning except one, which is ludicrous.
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Actually, is the inverse: It has, at very much, two properties of lightning, those are: seems like one, and the separation of electrons, and those doesn't means much cuz Tesla Coin show electricity that appears to be lightning, and that principle of separation of electrons works in electronic circuits too, so is possible than that isn't an unique characteristic of lightnings, but I'm kinda rusty about circuits right now.
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@Matt
Fair enough. But wasn't Irohs Lightning feat calced at not even Mach 1? I remember a few calcs being done for that with the results being the same and Irohs feat is a huge part of this.
Fair enough. But wasn't Irohs Lightning feat calced at not even Mach 1? I remember a few calcs being done for that with the results being the same and Irohs feat is a huge part of this.
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I am a big fan of consistency, but I agree with Matt.
The OP also concluded it acted like real lightning, so I accept it.
The OP also concluded it acted like real lightning, so I accept it.
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Links for whoever cares about the calcs:
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/250050#61
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/119035
(Not sure if anyone that doesn't have an account can see these)
https://www.narutoforums.org/xfa-blog-entry/iroh-redirects-lightning-avatar.18110/
https://www.narutoforums.org/xfa-blog-entry/irohs-lightning-redirection.20608/
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/250050#61
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/119035
(Not sure if anyone that doesn't have an account can see these)
https://www.narutoforums.org/xfa-blog-entry/iroh-redirects-lightning-avatar.18110/
https://www.narutoforums.org/xfa-blog-entry/irohs-lightning-redirection.20608/
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- Thread starter
- #48
Some people in the comments seem to be forgetting the most important point I made: That lightning-bending in Korra can be used to power machinery (conducting into it via a lighning rod) and that it can conduct and redirect electricity from machinery.
Personally, I can't remember the difference between lightning and electricity (at least in terms of speed) so I'll leave that to you all to decide.
Personally, I can't remember the difference between lightning and electricity (at least in terms of speed) so I'll leave that to you all to decide.
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It's not about Iroh's feat, it's about the other feats which the OP linked.
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I know, that was mainly for Kukui.
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Yeah I agree with OP. There's too many times where lightning was redirected after fired to refute as an outlier. Also, we know it's actually lightning because Iroh redirected natural lightning like someone above mentioned. The characters should probably be around Supersonic+ movement and MHS reactions.
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My apologies Gwynbleiddd, but it seems like more people agree with the initial post
I'm rather late to this, but we shouldn't disregard someone's opinion simply because the majority disagrees with them. It just screams out Ad Populum to me.
I'm rather late to this, but we shouldn't disregard someone's opinion simply because the majority disagrees with them. It just screams out Ad Populum to me.
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@Fllflourine
You do make a good point, but we also have to reach conclusions regarding these types of matters.
In addition, we tend to go by the higher-level feats that are not complete outliers. Although what constitutes a complete outlier obviously depends on case-by-case interpretation.
You do make a good point, but we also have to reach conclusions regarding these types of matters.
In addition, we tend to go by the higher-level feats that are not complete outliers. Although what constitutes a complete outlier obviously depends on case-by-case interpretation.
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Anyway, Antoniofer is technically correct in that electricity from tazers and the like moves much slower than natural lightning (which also varies greatly in speed, but we go by the average for convenience).
However, The Everlasting is correct in that we have not made a distinction for other franchises, and I do not think that we are in a good position to start a wiki-wide revision project.
However, The Everlasting is correct in that we have not made a distinction for other franchises, and I do not think that we are in a good position to start a wiki-wide revision project.
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In addition, it makes far more sense for the Lightning released by Lightning-Benders to be natural lightning since all other forms of bending revolve around natural elements and the way Lightning-bending is performed is similar to actual electrical discharges from clouds.
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Just to be clear though it should probably only count for their reactions. While lightning benders aren't enormously faster than most of the main cast, the speed needed to redirect lightning is never really continuously shown elsewhere (eg. the arrow/explosion feats and you don't see someone outright dodging lightning).
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No. The cast has outright dodged the lightning before.
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To be fair the Amon one is an outlier since literally a few scenes later he gets tagged by Mako's Lightning.
PS- I'm fine with MHS reactions.
PS- I'm fine with MHS reactions.
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- Thread starter
- #61
Amon was clearly caught off-guard in that later scene (since he was blood-bending Mako, which usually stops them from bending) and was too close to Mako to dodge it.
The fact I've said this in like 3 sepperate threads this past year is why we seriously need a special note or page explaining the ATLA speed ratings.
The fact I've said this in like 3 sepperate threads this past year is why we seriously need a special note or page explaining the ATLA speed ratings.
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That's not really an argument actually. When Amon dodged it the first te I'm pretty sure that was also a sneak attack and yet he had no issues dodging it.
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- Thread starter
- #63
The first time Amon saw the lightning travelling towards him and then dodged it, whereas the other time Mako used it right in front of Amon at almost point blank range while Amon was blood-bending his body. Watch the clip.
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I did and the problem with that is Amom was also looking at Mako the entire time he was bloodbending him. Amon was focused on Mako completely and Mako had at least a fairly good moment to charge his attack, so really Amon shouldve been able to dodge that. A sneak attack means to do something on someone without them being even aware of it, which Amon was aware in both cases against Mako. Besides, why does the range matter? Amon avoided Zolts lightning at close point blank range as well so being close to him shouldnt matter. Its even shown in other examples that close ranged lightning bending wouldnt matter, like Zuko countering Ozai's lightning an instant after Ozai unleashes it.
Another thing I have an issue on regarding dodging feats-
If Avatar characters, whether redirecting the lightning or blocking it, can truly physically dodge at MHS speeds and not just react to them, why even remain to try and block or redirect it? Its clearly obvious to everyone how powerful and dangerous the bending art in general is, being fatal in some cases. Dodging the bending would logically be taken over everything else and redirecting it should only be used as a last possible resort.
This is most strongly seen in Ozai vs Zuko. Yes, while Zuko did react fast enough to catch the lightning and redirect it, he certainly did not have the physical speed and capability to outright avoid it. And what must be considered is:
A) Lightning bending, while indeed powerful, is still considered a very deadly and dangerous bending art and that even doing something wrong for one moment can prove fatal and kill you. Considering the dangerous risks involved with lightning bending, theres no logicial reason why any character would stay and try to block or redirect it back at the opponents if they could truly just avoid it all together. Doing otherwise would only be doing more than whats required and all the times lightning bending is performed is in dangerous life-or-death situtations towards the characters. It stands to reason that blocking it with other bending or using lightning redirection would come as the absolute last option if avoiding it is impossible in the end.
B) Following the above point, not one time has Zuko ever remotely specialized in the bending art before confronting Ozai. Incase no one remembers, Zuko trained in redirecting lightning with Iroh long before the day of Black Sun and every single time Zuko failed badly to the point where the lightning blew him away or exploded right in front of him. To make the story short, Zuko never once properly and legitimately learned to redirect lightning until confronting his father at the very last instant, literally. With this in mind, it would be completely fair to assume Zuko shouldnt and wouldnt have ever tried to use incomplete lightning redirection at all without it being the only possible thing to avoid Ozai. And while Zuko did pull it off (by chance) it stands to reason Zuko would have tried or considered physically dodging the attack rather than redirect it if he truly could. The fact he took a chance and used a deadly technique he had never came close to mastering beforehand until the last possible second above all other options would imply Zuko couldnt just dodge Ozai's lightning and needed to use himself as a lightning rod.
I can definitely agree to MHS reaction speed for Avatar characters, but based off my reasoning and what ive seen here im very much against them being MHS in any other way until I see otherwise.
P.S.-
I rewatched the Katara and Aand clips and i dont think those would count. Fof Kataras when Azula shoots out her lightning we already see Kataras waterbending in motion towards it, so whats the reason behind "she started bending after it was released"? As for Aang, he didnt really react to it. When we see Ozai firing Lightning around we Aang already knew he was getting targeted with it and at the moment aang landed on the pillar to "react" to the lightning, he put himself in the position to redirect the lightning at the exact moment he got it hit with it, making it look like he reacted to it when its really not the case. So unless im missing or misinterpreting something, this isnt a reaction feat.
Another thing I have an issue on regarding dodging feats-
If Avatar characters, whether redirecting the lightning or blocking it, can truly physically dodge at MHS speeds and not just react to them, why even remain to try and block or redirect it? Its clearly obvious to everyone how powerful and dangerous the bending art in general is, being fatal in some cases. Dodging the bending would logically be taken over everything else and redirecting it should only be used as a last possible resort.
This is most strongly seen in Ozai vs Zuko. Yes, while Zuko did react fast enough to catch the lightning and redirect it, he certainly did not have the physical speed and capability to outright avoid it. And what must be considered is:
A) Lightning bending, while indeed powerful, is still considered a very deadly and dangerous bending art and that even doing something wrong for one moment can prove fatal and kill you. Considering the dangerous risks involved with lightning bending, theres no logicial reason why any character would stay and try to block or redirect it back at the opponents if they could truly just avoid it all together. Doing otherwise would only be doing more than whats required and all the times lightning bending is performed is in dangerous life-or-death situtations towards the characters. It stands to reason that blocking it with other bending or using lightning redirection would come as the absolute last option if avoiding it is impossible in the end.
B) Following the above point, not one time has Zuko ever remotely specialized in the bending art before confronting Ozai. Incase no one remembers, Zuko trained in redirecting lightning with Iroh long before the day of Black Sun and every single time Zuko failed badly to the point where the lightning blew him away or exploded right in front of him. To make the story short, Zuko never once properly and legitimately learned to redirect lightning until confronting his father at the very last instant, literally. With this in mind, it would be completely fair to assume Zuko shouldnt and wouldnt have ever tried to use incomplete lightning redirection at all without it being the only possible thing to avoid Ozai. And while Zuko did pull it off (by chance) it stands to reason Zuko would have tried or considered physically dodging the attack rather than redirect it if he truly could. The fact he took a chance and used a deadly technique he had never came close to mastering beforehand until the last possible second above all other options would imply Zuko couldnt just dodge Ozai's lightning and needed to use himself as a lightning rod.
I can definitely agree to MHS reaction speed for Avatar characters, but based off my reasoning and what ive seen here im very much against them being MHS in any other way until I see otherwise.
P.S.-
I rewatched the Katara and Aand clips and i dont think those would count. Fof Kataras when Azula shoots out her lightning we already see Kataras waterbending in motion towards it, so whats the reason behind "she started bending after it was released"? As for Aang, he didnt really react to it. When we see Ozai firing Lightning around we Aang already knew he was getting targeted with it and at the moment aang landed on the pillar to "react" to the lightning, he put himself in the position to redirect the lightning at the exact moment he got it hit with it, making it look like he reacted to it when its really not the case. So unless im missing or misinterpreting something, this isnt a reaction feat.
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- Thread starter
- #65
For the Amon thing, I guess what you said about range made sense but just because a character fails to dodge something at one point or another that doesn't mean they can't dodge it at all. Otherwise most fights in fiction would just be everyone dodging everything and never taking a hit. For example, Naruto can react to Sasuke's attacks but that doesn't mean he dodges all of them every single time. Also, Mako never "charged" the attack as we never see lightning building up in his hands so Amon wouldn't have known he was about to unleash it. In fact, the ATLA comics (which I guess I should've talked about more in my post) show us that lightning-benders can use a weaker, non-lethal version of their lightning without charging which is pretty much what Mako did.
As for why characters would redirect it instead of dodging it, there's a few things to consider:
1. As I've said before just because you CAN dodge something doesn't mean you WILL. Otherwise why would a boxer punch at all if they expect their opponent to dodge it perfectly every single time. If a boxer had a technique to nulify a punch that required the minimum movement possible and would send it back at them would they not want to learn it?
2. Zuko did not learn how to redirect lightning to just avoid Azula's lightning. He learnt it to damage her with her own lightning. As Iroh puts it before trying to teach Zuko how to generate lightning (and later redirect it, once he sees Zuko can't make his own): "She is crazy and needs to go down. It's time to resume your training".
And as for the whole Ozai vs Zuko thing:
1. Zuko was likely caught off-guard by the attack. Fire-benders were supposed to be stripped of their powers due to the black sun (hence why Zuko was so confident in approaching his father in the first place) and the both of them were having a conversation. But Ozai got his powers back suddenly and attacked. The lightning was almost touching Zuko before he even started moving, so it was too late for dodging to be an option.
2. Zuko sent it back towards his father, giving him the change to escape. Dodging it would just prolong the fight. It's far wiser for Zuko to redirect it (something his father doesn't know he can do) and stun him than to dodge it and risk having his father attack more.
As for the Aang and Katara dodging feats:
1. Even though Katara was moving the water before the lightning was fired, we see the water is still moving after it was fired so we could compare their speeds (they're on-screen at the same time) to work out the speed of Katara's water.
2. As the lightning is already fired we see Aang land on the pillar, roll forward and then position his hand to redirect the lightning all before it hits him. How is that not a speed feat?
As for why characters would redirect it instead of dodging it, there's a few things to consider:
1. As I've said before just because you CAN dodge something doesn't mean you WILL. Otherwise why would a boxer punch at all if they expect their opponent to dodge it perfectly every single time. If a boxer had a technique to nulify a punch that required the minimum movement possible and would send it back at them would they not want to learn it?
2. Zuko did not learn how to redirect lightning to just avoid Azula's lightning. He learnt it to damage her with her own lightning. As Iroh puts it before trying to teach Zuko how to generate lightning (and later redirect it, once he sees Zuko can't make his own): "She is crazy and needs to go down. It's time to resume your training".
And as for the whole Ozai vs Zuko thing:
1. Zuko was likely caught off-guard by the attack. Fire-benders were supposed to be stripped of their powers due to the black sun (hence why Zuko was so confident in approaching his father in the first place) and the both of them were having a conversation. But Ozai got his powers back suddenly and attacked. The lightning was almost touching Zuko before he even started moving, so it was too late for dodging to be an option.
2. Zuko sent it back towards his father, giving him the change to escape. Dodging it would just prolong the fight. It's far wiser for Zuko to redirect it (something his father doesn't know he can do) and stun him than to dodge it and risk having his father attack more.
As for the Aang and Katara dodging feats:
1. Even though Katara was moving the water before the lightning was fired, we see the water is still moving after it was fired so we could compare their speeds (they're on-screen at the same time) to work out the speed of Katara's water.
2. As the lightning is already fired we see Aang land on the pillar, roll forward and then position his hand to redirect the lightning all before it hits him. How is that not a speed feat?
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OK yeah sorry about that. Haven't watched the verse in a while.
Also quick question though. I'm a little new so I'm still not sure quite how we determine whether its reaction only. Wouldn't they in this case be reactions? They consistently demonstrate lower speeds while dodging and their lightning redirection/dodging is a single high speed action. Can someone explain? Thanks!
Also quick question though. I'm a little new so I'm still not sure quite how we determine whether its reaction only. Wouldn't they in this case be reactions? They consistently demonstrate lower speeds while dodging and their lightning redirection/dodging is a single high speed action. Can someone explain? Thanks!
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I still think that LoudCloud makes sense, and also would not mind a footnote explanation being written for the Avatar: The Last Airbender verse page after this thread has been settled.
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Maybe we should also include a rule about this? Because I see that ATLA speeds is a topic that gets constantly brought up and its led to a back and forth between revisions.
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I agree with Matthew on this, revising so many profiles back and forth does sound extremely tedious to the point where it feels pointless.
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Again though wouldn't this be reactions? Most of the other attacks are clearly just supersonic or lower yet they're still a credible threat against the benders when used in quick combination. We only really see that sort of speed when they dodge single bolts of lightning. Shouldnt it be Supersonic+ with MHS reactions? Could someone explain pls? Thanks!
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Zuko ran to intercept lightning at one point, so no, it scales to speed as a whole.
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I have no problem with MHS but I still think it should be reaction only.
The Zuko feat is an argument against this, but I think that its probably an outlier considering how Katara, Zuko's peer was unable to shift herself out of the way whereas, Zuko was able to run inbetween the lightning and her. This seems more like it was added into the plot for drama showing little consistency with the other feats.
The Zuko feat is an argument against this, but I think that its probably an outlier considering how Katara, Zuko's peer was unable to shift herself out of the way whereas, Zuko was able to run inbetween the lightning and her. This seems more like it was added into the plot for drama showing little consistency with the other feats.
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Well, I will sat that the MHS will only be for combat and reaction speeds and not travel speed; like how a lot of character speed ratings are.
Anyway, the rule listed on the discussion rules page should likely specify importance of using and/or assuming real world time frames. Like as I mentioned, majority of dodging and reaction feats in cinema, animation, and video games actually take place in slow motion; even though the background doesn't always portray it as such.
Anyway, the rule listed on the discussion rules page should likely specify importance of using and/or assuming real world time frames. Like as I mentioned, majority of dodging and reaction feats in cinema, animation, and video games actually take place in slow motion; even though the background doesn't always portray it as such.
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It seems that Lightning dodging is pretty consistent in Avatar Comics, at least when it comes to Zuko, however he is not the only one doing it
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