Asta vs Kaidou

[Arnoldstone18]

it's still a slash, it's not a big AOE

And it's not even in his profile that his range is that far

You brought the scan of the damn feat and you’re still pulling the “not on his page card”

Said slash is bigger than Kaidou’s damn body how ever way you look at it. Common sense tells you that the slash is notably visible even after slashing clouds HORIZONTAL TO ASTA. Not vertical.. horizontal deep into the horizon. It’s big. It’s very ******* big. And it’s clear it gets bigger the further it dissipates cuz at closer range it still makes cuts kilometers wide since we know the dragons are many many kilometers long.

Kaidou is not even a kilometer in height unless you count the dragon form which just makes him a bigger target. At close range Kaidou is simply not dodging a speed blitz from an attack that size from a precog user who acts instinctively to whatever the other precog user does.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Asta has a pretty big BIQ advantage over Kaido, and unlike Luffy, he can do some serious damage compared to him with a much more spammable move that also pretty much one shots Kaido. Plus he also has the benefit of having his transformation lasting longer than Luffy's, so he won't need to restart Devil Union a million times, which also HUGELY amps his speed, on top of Zetten giving him that 20x amp. In short, Asta is smarter (in combat) and much more dangerous than Luffy when it comes to his damage output.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

What?

Nah, luffy whos resistant to blunt force attacks get negated by Haki

The other is resistance to resistance negation which is haki overpowering other haki so that it can effect you

Haki negates devil fruit specific abilities like logia. Why not rubber powers? Haki hard counters devil fruit.

All this is just Haki to haki interaction. It’s not going to somehow negate the resistance of water proof material the same way it ain’t negating protective energy resistance.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

You brought the scan of the damn feat and you’re still pulling the “not on his page card”

how is that thousands of km?

At close range Kaidou is simply not dodging a speed blitz from an attack that size from a precog user who acts instinctively to whatever the other precog user does.

Kaido's obs Haki acts subconsciously, so he's body will also be moving on it's own, plus with the perception Amp of a kid with initial obs haki being able to precieve lightning speed, he's not getting blitzed.

This is also someone who can counter the future sight of luffy who countered the future sight of katakuri who countered whole cake island luffy's precog

 

[Arnoldstone18]

zetten blitzes terribly

his obs has no feats of reacting to something 20x faster than himself

The 20x faster thing has been nuked unfortunately. Rn it’s just a massive unquant speed amp.

 

[Kachon123]

Not only is Zetten spammable, Asta literally has multiple blitz worthy transformations from black mode blitzing Langris who was comparable to him to berserk mode matching Dante severely blitzing him to devil union speed blitzing Nacht who was already faster than him prior to unlocking it. Then you have freaking Zetten’s massive blitz stacked into these transformations.

This is still less than Kaidou.

I mean we have Hybrid Kaidou who could dodge an attack that blitzed his Base form (Red Roc) with ease, and then Thunder Bagua being able to blitz people who are relative to his Hybrid form.
Then we have Shuron Hakke which allowed Base Kaidou to dodge an attack that blitzed his Hybrid form (Roc Gun)

Then after just one more sip, he was able to blitz an attack that prior to accelerating for an extended period of time could blitz him.

And then we have Thunder Bagua variants with each being a blitz over the rest.

Kaidou has more blitzes and speed amps, with Shuron Hakke allowing him to get blitz levels faster any time he wants.

Zetten is absolutely not an issue when Kaidou can also literally see into the future.

Not to mention Asta’s skill set at this point in the series in conjunction with precog+instinctive reactions enables him to defend against speed blitzes from Zetten users. Keeping in mind that before Asta was weaving through light speed attacks he could only react to them with precog now he has skill sets that range from (sense manipulation via movements to instinctive reactions).

This isn't anything at all. Kaidou was able to completely blitz Luffy with a Thunder Bagua while he was using future sight. This is a Luffy 1000 chapters removed from the version of himself that through sheer instinctive reactions could defend against not just a normal speed blitz, but someone who at the time was 2596.8x faster than him. Kaidou is able to blitz this dude consistently over, and over, and over, and over again, just with his Baguas.

On top of everything you have accelerated development boosting his speed (and power) the longer he fights. So I really don’t want to hear allat tbvfh g.

That's so funny how you say that considering Kaidou is quite literally getting stronger Haki, becoming physically stronger, more durable, and faster as the fight goes on too. Enough to be able to kill someone he was relative to in 2 hits.

It’s not analytical prediction. Asta simply knows their opponents moves through their life force and reacts to them instinctively faster.

This is quite literally basic Kenbun. It's analytical prediction, not divination.

Kaidou's base Kenbun is already far above basic Kenbun. Future Sight is exponentially greater than even that.

I don’t care how good Kaido’s precog is he is no evading a speed blitzing slash thousands of kilometers in size and range.

I don't know man, Franky dodged something similar pretty easily.

He does, he has like 3 profiles.

If you can’t find it I’ll send the crt I made 2 years ago.

It's not on his profile. Send the CRT.

 

[Robo432343]

The 20x faster thing has been nuked unfortunately. Rn it’s just a massive unquant speed amp.

so its more than 20???

 

[Kachon123]

Anyways, voting Kaidou.

The fight would be close in the beginning staged of Kaidou's Shuron Hakke, but he'd eventually become too fast for Asta to be able to touch, and he's to tanky to go down from one or two good Zetten hits. His attacks are stronger than Asta's durability, and he can vaporize him with Kaen Daiko.

 

[Kachon123]

so its more than 20???

Not too sure where you got that from. Right now it's just a blitz amp. There's no number attached.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Haki negates devil fruit specific abilities like logia.

• Heat Manipulation (Sanji states that Buso assists him in withstanding heat[60])

No it does not, logia are completely natural elements anyway

Luffy uses haki with even his own fire attacks created by just acceleration

All this is just Haki to haki interaction. It’s not going to somehow negate the resistance of water proof material the same way it ain’t negating protective energy resistance.

Because haki hasn't shown to even resist or negate that... Idk how that's even comparable

 

[Kachon123]

Haki has resistance negation. Asta's heat resistance is getting axed and he's getting vaporized by Kaen Daiko before he can even come close enough to attack it with Zetten.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I'll vote kaido as well based on kachon's reasoning, they seem valid

 

[Arnoldstone18]

how is that thousands of km?

Look at the calc associated with the feat. It slashes clouds all throughout a land the size of japan (less than 3000km). If you are standing in flat land at sea level the clouds in the edge of the horizon stretch out many hundreds of kilometers away. Now imagine you are Asta many miles above the ground looking into the same horizon.

Kaido's obs Haki acts subconsciously, so he's body will also be moving on it's own, plus with the perception Amp of a kid with initial obs haki being able to precieve lightning speed, he's not getting blitzed.

This is also someone who can counter the future sight of luffy who countered the future sight of katakuri who countered whole cake island luffy's precog

BS logic. Just because they collect future info subconsciously doesn’t mean their actions are subconscious. He literally needs the ability to fight subconsciously.

And you are telling me that “kid” did not aim dodge said lightning? Lightning that can not change its trajectory or its mind like a human? Lightning that doesn’t also have precog and skill against other precog users? Be fr. Lmao. He is getting blitzed before he changes position when Asta spams it. Precog can only go so far without skill and IQ against other precog users.


Asta has stole skills that counter his precog and he has fought the most skilled warriors in the Land of the Sun like Ichika who is more skilled than members of her group as well as kijin assassins who were just one of the best military power tasked with guarding the shogun.

 

[Nierre]

A kid with initial obs haki does, who was able to react to enels movement moving through gold

 

[Arnoldstone18]

This is still less than Kaidou.

I mean we have Hybrid Kaidou who could dodge an attack that blitzed his Base form (Red Roc) with ease, and then Thunder Bagua being able to blitz people who are relative to his Hybrid form.
Then we have Shuron Hakke which allowed Base Kaidou to dodge an attack that blitzed his Hybrid form (Roc Gun)

Then after just one more sip, he was able to blitz an attack that prior to accelerating for an extended period of time could blitz him.

And then we have Thunder Bagua variants with each being a blitz over the rest.

Kaidou has more blitzes and speed amps, with Shuron Hakke allowing him to get blitz levels faster any time he wants.

Zetten is absolutely not an issue when Kaidou can also literally see into the future.

almost all of what you mentioned are attack speed not dodging speed.

He gets blitzed

 

[Kachon123]

Look at the calc associated with the feat. It slashes clouds all throughout a land the size of japan (less than 3000km). If you are standing in flat land at sea level the clouds in the edge of the horizon stretch out many hundreds of kilometers away. Now imagine you are Asta many miles above the ground looking into the same horizon.

Get it on his profile.

 

[Nierre]

The 20x faster thing has been nuked unfortunately. Rn it’s just a massive unquant speed amp.

nooo....

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

BS logic. Just because they collect future info subconsciously doesn’t mean their actions are subconscious.

They are and is accepted as such

And you are telling me that “kid” did not aim dodge said lightning? Lightning that can not change its trajectory or its mind like a human? Lightning that doesn’t also have precog and skill against other precog users? Be fr. Lmao. He is getting blitzed before he changes position. Precog can only go so far without skill and IQ against other precog users.

No... Because she precieved it's movements, she didn't dodge anything. Which is also accepted.

 

[Kachon123]

almost all of what you mentioned are attack speed not dodging speed.

Literally one of the things I mentioned was attack speed. What are you talking about.

 

[Nierre]

so all these haki users are perceiving attacks thousands of times faster than themselves is what im hearing

 

[Arnoldstone18]

They are and is accepted as such

Aside from the fact that this applies to characters who can’t rely on their senses which Kaido have. It still can not be compared to Asta who instinctively reacts to literal precog info. Not current situation.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Look at the calc associated with the feat. It slashes clouds all throughout a land the size of japan (less than 3000km). If you are standing in flat land at sea level the clouds in the edge of the horizon stretch out many hundreds of kilometers away. Now imagine you are Asta many miles above the ground looking into the same horizon.

this? Which Calc? There's no Calc on his page

 

[Kachon123]

I find it so funny how the arguments against Kaidou being able to negate Asta's resistances or Kaidou being able to dodge or react are "nuh uh" even though it's accepted as such on the profiles.

 

[Robo432343]

so all these haki users are perceiving attacks thousands of times faster than themselves is what im hearing

whats wrong with that....

 

[Kachon123]

so all these haki users are perceiving attacks thousands of times faster than themselves is what im hearing

No, but Zetten or any of Asta's amps don't have feats to say that they can blitz a Kaidou who's movement, attack, and reaction speeds are already a blitz level above Asta's base.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

this? Which Calc? There's no Calc on hus page

Black Clover: Asta splits the clouds

vsbattles.fandom.com

Will continue this debate tomorrow Kachon.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

so all these haki users are perceiving attacks thousands of times faster than themselves is what im hearing

yee, even when they get fully body blitzed, their haki still reacts

 

[Arnoldstone18]

yee, even when they get fully body blitzed, their haki still reacts

Getting body blitzed is the issue here.

And that just looks like Doffy reacting last second.

 

[Kachon123]

Getting body blitzed is the issue here.

No it's not.

With Zetten, Kaidou's durability is around 6x lower than Asta's, but because he would see the slash coming before it happens, even if he can't dodge he would still be able to coat his body in Haki like Doflamingo did. Depending on the sword, Asta's attacks still cut (it shouldn't really matter due to Rebecca's blunt blade), and because Kaidou's Buso is far superior to Dressrosa Luffy he should be able to endure a Zetten attack or two (Luffy back in Dressrosa could endure Doflamingo's awakening attacks with Buso due to sheer slashing/piercing resistance), let alone Haoshoku Infusion which progressively gets stronger while in Shuron Hakke to the point where it can completely overpower someone whose Haki was relative to his own moments prior.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Getting body blitzed is the issue here.

And that just looks like Doffy reacting last second.

He isn't... He's simply unable to do anything because of the difference in speed and can only keep up from afar with aoe and obs haki, same happened to sandersonia

Not sure how getting body blitzed is the issue when kachon gave more blitz amps then asta

 

[Arnoldstone18]

No it's not.

it is. A 7 zettaton slash attack from a katana is cutting through.

Will continue this debate when I wake up.

 

[Kachon123]

it is. A 7 zettaton slash attack from a katana is cutting through.

It's not enough to oneshot Kaidou. He could probably cut through, but it's not dealing nearly enough to put Kaidou down, especially considering how much of a tank he is.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Not sure how getting body blitzed is the issue when kachon gave more blitz amps then asta

Spamming thunder bagua majority of the time is not dodging speed. It’s attack speeds. I gave many combat speed amps (dodging, reacting, attacking) + the massive Attack speed from Zetten. Kaido is not dodging.

Goodnight. Responding tomorrow.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It's not enough to oneshot Kaidou. He could probably cut through, but it's not dealing nearly enough to put Kaidou down, especially considering how much of a tank he is.

A cutting attack 6.4x stronger than him and cutting through him. He’s done.

 

[Robo432343]

voting pasta

 

[Kachon123]

Spamming thunder bagua majority of the time is not dodging speed. It’s attack speeds. I gave many combat speed amps (dodging, reacting, attacking) + the massive Attack speed from Zetten. Kaido is not dodging.

Lmfao. Why are you ignoring my message.

Literally one of the things I mentioned was attack speed. What are you talking about.

 

[Kachon123]

A cutting attack 6.4x stronger than him and cutting through him. He’s done.

Based on what? Luffy's Buso was able to block a cutting/piercing attack that was 4x stronger than him with nothing more than coughing blood. Kaidou who has stronger Haki than him will not get cut through. He will be cut definitely, but not taken out.

 

[Kachon123]

voting pasta

You have to state your reasons

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Spamming thunder bagua majority of the time is not dodging speed. It’s attack speeds.

it's still overall movement combined with attack speed still, so that doesn't matter

He has dodged something while using it

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Lmfao. Why are you ignoring my message.

Just because I didn’t see it doesn’t mean I’m ignoring it. I am literally responding to 2-3 people on mobile in the middle of the night. So I’m sorry if I didn’t see a little message claiming I’m ignoring you saying what is clearly not the case.

Thunder bagua is an attack. You mentioned it many times in reference to its speed. That’s attack speed. Asta matches with his skill set against speed blitzes, speed amps, AD, to land the spammable Zetten.

Tomorrow. Bye.