Asta vs Ichigo

[Epsilon_R]

So soul = Mana and anyone who can interact with Mana can interact with Souls?

They could, but hardly anyone can sense Mana to begin with

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They could, but hardly anyone can sense Mana to begin with

Isn't there multiple characters can use mana zone if they can use that how they can't interact with it?

 

[Epsilon_R]

Also common misconception: just because another verse uses a power called Magic doesn't mean it's similar enough to be equalized to Black Clover's magic, that would be name or association fallacy

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Also common misconception: just because another verse uses a power called Magic doesn't mean it's similar enough to be equalized to Black Clover's magic, that would be name or association fallacy

FKING THANK YOU

 

[Epsilon_R]

Isn't there multiple characters can use mana zone if they can use that how they can't interact with it?

That's the only ones who can, and they're not that many, hence why I said hardly anyone

 

[Lynieryz]

How does this discussion genuinely exist? Just Google "Bleach reishi" or "Bleach spiritrons", there's no equalization going on here, Ichigo passively destroys Asta and that's a stomp.

 

[Robo432343]

How does this discussion genuinely exist? Just Google "Bleach reishi" or "Bleach spiritrons", there's no equalization going on here, Ichigo passively destroys Asta and that's a stomp.

exactly..i have to equalize it so it isnt a stomp

 

[Joshyyy_64]

How does this discussion genuinely exist? Just Google "Bleach reishi" or "Bleach spiritrons", there's no equalization going on here, Ichigo passively destroys Asta and that's a stomp.

it's called a wincondition , why else do u thinke we are equalising? blud aint readin

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Isn't there multiple characters can use mana zone if they can use that how they can't interact with it?

Not really, they can manipulate Mana because they can feel it, but physically interacting with Mana is extremely limited in the verse.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

That's the only ones who can, and they're not that many, hence why I said hardly anyone

Can you show me cand where they shown to interact with souls of others then?

Also common misconception: just because another verse uses a power called Magic doesn't mean it's similar enough to be equalized to Black Clover's magic, that would be name or association fallacy

• Magic is common ability in the wiki

It's not name or Association fallacy. Here me or no one claiming an ability based on name alone. I did sent the scans where it's an magic energy and spells.

Also Magic is energy which used to power the spells so its an Seperate Power system. Humans do born with magic. If this doesn't satisfy you I'm not gonna bother replying any further. possess.

 

[Epsilon_R]

How does this discussion genuinely exist? Just Google "Bleach reishi" or "Bleach spiritrons", there's no equalization going on here, Ichigo passively destroys Asta and that's a stomp.

Why need Google? Why don't the supporters just explain them and point out what make them different from magic and Mana?

 

[Lynieryz]

exactly..i have to equalize it so it isnt a stomp

Add to the op.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Ontology and mechanics to the genuine power system they use is absolutely important. I need to know these answers in order to determine if magic in BTW is the same as that in BC. It could very well even be that it sits right in the middle of the 2.

Sorry bruh I really don't see where it's asking the same questions as you.
It's saying Similar where magic spells in Bleach and Magic in BC should be similar as they are used to intervene with reality.
Mana and Magic energy should be similar as they are used to use spells and magic.

One more question: are they like fullbringers, where their reiyoku relies on their soul? Is that just untrue.

Fullbringers uses different thing. They don't use Reiokyu as far as I remember.

(Fullbring's foundational ability is the manipulation of souls that reside within physical materials, this allows Fullbringers to manipulate physical constructs[1]. This control over souls allow Fullbringers at times to manipulate the Laws of Physics itself[2])

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Not really, they can manipulate Mana because they can feel it, but physically interacting with Mana is extremely limited in the verse.

Morris would be a good example I'd say. Not sure about him having mana zone, but he's amongst the only ppl who is stated to touch, manipuulate and crush concepts, including mana. magic power is mana made physical right? mana isnt a physical thing to begin with

 

[Lynieryz]

Why need Google? Why don't the supporters just explain them and point out what make them different from magic and Mana?

Why explain? When the bc supports can "READ" I know it's practically impossible but in 30 seconds reading the Bleach page here on the wiki or searching Google you understand that no equalization will happen here

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Not really, they can manipulate Mana because they can feel it, but physically interacting with Mana is extremely limited in the verse.

Ok can I get the scan mana = Soul?

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Sorry bruh I really don't see where it's asking the same questions as you.
It's saying Similar where magic spells in Bleach and Magic in BC should be similar as they are used to intervene with reality.
Mana and Magic energy should be similar as they are used to use spells and magic.

Read the last bit where it say it need to be discussed in verses threads.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Read the last bit where it say it need to be discussed in verses threads.

I read and I already said i would have no problem if Bleach didn't had multiple power systems. But bleach does has magic and Reiokyu so I would rather go with both are different.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Why explain? When the bc supports can "READ" I know it's practically impossible but in 30 seconds reading the Bleach page here on the wiki or searching Google you understand that no equalization will happen here

I did read it, and nothing notable stands out for verse equalization to not occur here

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Why explain? When the bc supports can "READ" I know it's practically impossible but in 30 seconds reading the Bleach page here on the wiki or searching Google you understand that no equalization will happen here

Do you have an argument here? You haven't shown how Asta isn't able to deal with it.

Ok can I get the scan mana = Soul?

Chapter 334 of Black clover, go read the officials

 

[Joshyyy_64]

I read and I already said i would have no problem if Bleach didn't had multiple power systems. But bleach does has magic and Reiokyu so I would rather go with both are different.

That's why we have to DISCUSS it, not run away from the topic, right?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Chapter 334 of Black clover, go read the officials

Where its stated mana =Soul? I think you are misunderstanding what Lucius saying he is not saying mana = Soul. He is explaining how soul is important to everything that's all.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Because you still havent asked the outstanding question regarding BTW magic's and whether or not it is the source of it is the soul, interacts with the soul and in some cases regarded AS the soul

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

That's why we have to DISCUSS it, not run away from the topic, right?

No one is running away. I'm just stating Disagreement with your logic.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Because you still havent asked the outstanding question regarding BTW magic's and whether or not it is the source of it is the soul, interacts with the soul and in some cases regarded AS the soul

They can enter Soul Society with Magic so it can indeed interact with it

 

[Epsilon_R]

They can enter Soul Society with Magic so it can indeed interact with it

Just because they can enter with it doesn't automatically mean they can interact with souls.

Also do they just have their Magic in Souls Society, or they also have spiritual power?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Just because they can enter with it doesn't automatically mean they can interact with souls.

You can't enter SS without interacting with spiritual energy this is common thing. Humans can't just enter SS..witch and Wizards should be different race all together.

Also do they just have their Magic in Souls Society, or they also have spiritual power?

There is no mention of Spiritual presure or anything in the BTW. It's always talked about Magic and Spells.

 

[Lynieryz]

I did read it, and nothing notable stands out for verse equalization to not occur here

Of course you read it

Blut (血装 (ブルート), Burūto; German for "Blood", Japanese for "Blood Guise"): A Quincy ability that gives one inhuman defensive and offensive capability by making Reishi flow into their blood vessels.

Bringer Light (完現光 (ブリンガーライト), Buringā Raito; lit. "Full Manifestation Light"): Fullbringers can induce states of high-speed movement through Fullbring. Such movements are accompanied by the flickering of a green luminescence called which is the preliminary for each high-speed movement. This speed is achieved through a variety of different uses of Fullbring. By pulling on the soul of the ground beneath their feet, Fullbringers can increase its elasticity, greatly enhancing their jumping ability as a result. In addition, by Fullbringing the air around them, they can accelerate their movements. Doing so can consequentially strengthen the force of their blows.

Dangai: (断界, Parsing World), also known as the Precipice World, is the dimension between Soul Society and the Human World, separated from space and time.

Garganta (黒腔 (ガルガンタ), Garuganta; Spanish for "Throat", Japanese for "Black Cavity"): is how Arrancar and Hollows move to and from Hueco Mundo.

Hakuda (白打, White Hits): is a close-combat style of fighting, in which one is unarmed and uses only one's body, and is one of the four basic fighting styles of the Shinigami. Captain Suì-Fēng of the 2nd Division excels in this style. High-speed Taijutsu (体術, Body Skill) attacks are used to overwhelm the opponent. Physical strength and skill is determined by this class. It seems to be a combination of several martial arts.

Hirenkyaku (飛廉脚, Flying Screen Step; Viz: "Flying Bamboo-Blind Leg"): is an advanced Quincy movement technique, allowing the user to move at high speed by riding on the flow of Reishi created below their feet. Essentially, it is the Quincy equivalent to the Shinigami's Shunpo and the Arrancar's Sonído.

Hohō (歩法, Step Method; Viz "Fast Movement"): is a defensive style of fighting which relates to footwork, it is one of the four basic combat skills of the Shinigami. Hohō is an important skill for most Shinigami, which incorporates speed and agility. The skill level of Hohō can be enhanced and improved through concentration, training, and mastery of it.

• Shunpo (瞬歩, Flash Steps): is a movement technique which allows the user to move faster than the eye can follow. The focal point which determines the basis of this technique is speed. As speed is the main factor of the technique, the method is best characterized by how fast one can get from point A to point B in the least amount of steps. Training and skill are what determines how fast a user of Shunpo can move; users of little skill in the technique or those who have not used it for an extended period of time would obviously be out of practice, causing them to be considerably slower, which requires the use of more steps to move the same distance and become winded in a shorter amount of time.

Kidō (鬼道, Demon/Spirit Way; Viz "Soul Reaper's powers"/"Spells"; sometimes translated as "Demon Arts"): is a form of Shinigami combat based on advanced spells. These spells are produced with strong Reiryoku and fall into two categories: Hadō for direct attacks, and Bakudō for battle support. It is one of the techniques in the Zankensoki, the group of Shinigami primary combat skills. Kidō spells are triggered by an incantation. Experienced users can trigger them without an incantation, though the effectiveness of the spell may be diminished.

Muken (無間, Avici): is the eighth and final level of the underground prison. Muken is a voided space completely sealed off from the outside world, aside from the main tower that serves as the entrance and exit. The realm has the illusion of stretching to infinity.

Reiatsu (霊圧, Spiritual Pressure): is the physical force/pressure that a person’s Reiryoku creates when released. Most Shinigami, Arrancar and Quincy can manipulate the release of their Reiatsu.

• Reikaku: (霊覚, Spiritual Sense) or "Reiatsu Chikaku" (霊圧知覚, Spiritual Pressure Perception). The senses by which one feels and pick up on Reiatsu. Every person that has Reiatsu subconsciously uses both their sense of vision and their Reikaku at the same time in order to see. When concentrating in the midst of battle, Reikaku takes over an overwhelming amount of perception. In other words, the subconscious begins to stop seeing with “eyes”.

Reiraku (霊絡, Spirit Coils): are the visualization of Reiryoku into ribbons, which spiritually aware beings can follow.

Reiryoku (霊力, Spiritual Power): is a power aligned with the spiritual sensitivity and willpower of the user. It is used by Shinigami and other spiritual beings to provide power for their various abilities.

Reishi (霊子, Spirit Particles): is the main component material of Souls and all spiritual matter.

Sonído (響転 (ソニード), Sonīdo; Spanish for "Sound", Japanese for "Sound Ceremony"): is a high-speed movement technique of the Arrancar. It is equivalent to the Shinigami's Shunpo and the Quincy's Hirenkyaku, which are roughly equal in terms of speed.

Zanjutsu (斬術, Swordsmanship; Viz "Art of the Sword"; Cutting Technique): is the fighting style for the Zanpakutō (i.e. sword fighting) and is one of the four basic fighting styles of the Shinigami. It is shameful for a Shinigami to not master at least this technique. It is the specialty of Captain Kenpachi Zaraki of the 11th Division.

• Physiologies

• Soul Physiology
• Shinigami Physiology
• Hollow Physiology
• Quincy Physiology
• Fullbringer Physiology

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Where its stated mana =Soul? I think you are misunderstanding what Lucius saying he is not saying mana = Soul. He is explaining how soul is important to everything that's all.

Spade invasion arc. Look specifically on the left

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Spade invasion arc. Look specifically on the left

learning true magic thanks to using the mana method brings you closer to mana. Dryad quite literally says you become more intimate with the soul and the origins of souls thanks to this method right here.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

They can enter Soul Society with Magic so it can indeed interact with it

doesn't prove it's their actual soul, never mind the soul being the source of their magic.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Of course you read it

I think you're looking more at application more than ontology of the energy system (where it comes from and how it genuinely works)

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Spade invasion arc. Look specifically on the left

learning true magic thanks to using the mana method brings you closer to mana. Dryad quite literally says you become more intimate with the soul and the origins of souls thanks to this method right here.

Statement isn't even saying anything close to mana = Soul.

Here In Elysia, Become acquainted with the origin of souls, and physically draw closer to mana

You know why and is used ? It's used for differentiation. It's not saying anything about Mana & Soul are same.

doesn't prove it's their actual soul, never mind the soul being the source of their magic.

Are you Disagreeing Bleach characters having soul manipulation? Make a CRT and Downgrade it if you really Disagree.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Of course you read it

I don't know why the passive aggressiveness is there for but w.e

"Reiatsu (霊圧, Spiritual Pressure): is the physical force/pressure that a person’s Reiryoku creates when released. Most Shinigami, Arrancar and Quincy can manipulate the release of their Reiatsu"

Mages can exert similar pressures when Magic Power leave their body, others can manipulate that output to attack, manipulate their surroundings or outright lift people with it. Heck, Bleach's Hado and BC's "Mahou" (Magic, yes it's different from Magic Power "Maryoku") are also similar.

"Reiryoku (霊力, Spiritual Power): is a power aligned with the spiritual sensitivity and willpower of the user. It is used by Shinigami and other spiritual beings to provide power for their various abilities."

Much like Magic Power, which provides mages and other species to power up their abilities.

"Reishi (霊子, Spirit Particles): is the main component material of Souls and all spiritual matter."

Mana is literally the origin of souls.


Again, I don’t see what makes them not comparable to verse equalization, even energies that's aren't 1-to-1 similar can be equalized according to SBA.

"So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen."

So yeah wether you all like the idea or not, verse equalization occurs here. And I'm pretty sure we've been equalizing the two energies in past match-ups anyway, you can still ask a Staff Member to come though

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Statement isn't even saying anything close to mana = Soul.

You know why and is used ? It's used for differentiation. It's not saying anything about Mana & Soul are same.

Are you Disagreeing Bleach characters having soul manipulation? Make a CRT and Downgrade it if you really Disagree.

She said that interacting with mana is the same as interacting with the soul and that learning and using ultimate magic allows you to interact with the soul. because without the soul, there is no mana. You wouldn't even get a grimoire to begin with.

1. The grimoire given to each user allows them to use spells and it soul specific. It's almost as if that grimoire and the soul are the same, but it doesn't end there.

2. remember how we talked about interacting with mana being impossible? You can do it with mana method, mana zone, etc Because mana method allows you to bring mana from outside into spells. remember that mana isn't physical. More or less the same as magic power is soul power

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

She said that interacting with mana is the same as interacting with the soul and that learning and using ultimate magic allows you to interact with the soul. because without the soul, there is no mana. You wouldn't even get a grimoire to begin with.

Disagree. That's not what the scans says. I literally even copy pasted the line.

1. The grimoire given to each user allows them to use spells and it soul specific. It's almost as if that grimoire and the soul are the same, but it doesn't end there.

Spells coming from soul specific ≠ interacting with souls

2. remember how we talked about interacting with mana being impossible? You can do it with mana method, mana zone, etc Because mana method allows you to bring mana from outside into spells. remember that mana isn't physical. More or less the same as magic power is soul power

That's just means Mana is non physical material that's all nothing else.

Chapter 334 of Black clover, go read the officials

Check your own scans he clearly talks about how soul is important to character but never once mentioned anything about its importance to the world.
While Mana is important to world but never stated it's important to Soul. Both are different things.

So I disagree.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Disagree. That's not what the scans says. I literally even copy pasted the line.

Spells coming from soul specific ≠ interacting with souls

That's just means Mana is non physical material that's all nothing else.

Check your own scans he clearly talks about how soul is important to character but never once mentioned anything about its importance to the world.
While Mana is important to world but never stated it's important to Soul. Both are different things.

So I disagree.

That's where magic power (Mahou) comes in. Mana method uses magic power to write runes allowiing you to make use of more mana than that of which your existence is predestinated with. Magic power is simply mana with in a human, type, quantity and attribute all depend are all your soul because it's your identity in such a way.

Don't get it confused, Magic power is NOT mana

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

That's where magic power (Mahou) comes in. Mana method uses magic power to write runes allowiing you to make use of more mana than that of which your existence is predestinated with. Magic power is simply mana with in a human, type, quantity and attribute all depend are all your soul because it's your identity in such a way.

Don't get it confused, Magic power is NOT mana

I'm not arguing mana is same as Magic. Read what I said. Mana is something exists in World acts as fundamental but Magic is mana which is stored in Living beings as for your friends scan which he sent above. Which is nothing to do with Soul.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Disagree. That's not what the scans says. I literally even copy pasted the line.

Spells coming from soul specific ≠ interacting with souls

That's just means Mana is non physical material that's all nothing else.

Check your own scans he clearly talks about how soul is important to character but never once mentioned anything about its importance to the world.
While Mana is important to world but never stated it's important to Soul. Both are different things.

So I disagree.

Oh yeah, I've not talked about the scan. Mana is the origin of souls. Why? Because you're learning ultimate magic because true magic and mana method has been learned already.

She literally says learn the origin of souls, but wait, they're learning ultimate magic, how does that make sense? Mana beinig the origin of souls is quite literally the only answer to that because learning ultimate magic is the same as learning more about mana. You learn more about mana once learned how to use your own magic power to do runes and interact with mana.

I'm not arguing mana is same as Magic. Read what I said. Mana is something exists in World acts as fundamental but Magic is mana which is stored in Living beings as for your friends scan which he sent above. Which is nothing to do with Soul.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

I'm not arguing mana is same as Magic. Read what I said. Mana is something exists in World acts as fundamental but Magic is mana which is stored in Living beings as for your friends scan which he sent above. Which is nothing to do with Soul.

She said that interacting with mana is the same as interacting with the soul and that learning and using ultimate magic allows you to interact with the soul. because without the soul, there is no mana. You wouldn't even get a grimoire to begin with.

1. The grimoire given to each user allows them to use spells and it soul specific. It's almost as if that grimoire and the soul are the same, but it doesn't end there.

2. remember how we talked about interacting with mana being impossible? You can do it with mana method, mana zone, etc Because mana method allows you to bring mana from outside into spells. remember that mana isn't physical. More or less the same as magic power is soul power

Manipulating the soul would be the result of using grimoire spells and keeping it afloat. basically manipulating the soul = manipulating the grimoire. the grimoire chooses the soul because no 2 souls are the same. It's like saying your identity is you in a way