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Arthas VS Sauron
- Thread starter ZacharyGrossman273
- Start date
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Sauron via far higher AP
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We just don't know enough about Arthas to really discuss this one. Instincts say Sauron, because *at least Star level* is unlikely to be beaten by Unknown, but...lack of information...
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Yeah. He's 5-C at best.
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Several of them actually were superhuman. Elrond, Elendil and Gil-Galad all fought Sauron at once and he killed two of them (for context, Elrond is the son of the warrior who killed Ancalagon with a Silmarl and Gil-Galad is one of the strongest elves ever to live).
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1. Sauron wasn't gravely injured by a peak human. He was injured by a peak human, using a sword made by, Moon level to Star level charactersNabard123 said:
2. Elves are vastly superhuman. Elves can fight for days, and defeat Maiar. Its kind of like being beat by Haun. Its not a feat against Sauron, its a feat for Haun
3. Sauron wants to rule. If he brought down his full might he would have destroyed the planet, and then he would have nothing to rule.
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@MasterOfArda And if Sauron had tried to destroy the planet the Valar would have been forced to intervene and stop him. He did not want them to get involved, especially after seeing his master getting beaten so badly by them during the War of Wrath...
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@MasterOfArda Yep, stalemate. That's why they sent in the Istari with their restrictions.
What language? The link sent me to your respect thread (nicely compiled, by the way) but I didn't see anything out of the ordinary.
What language? The link sent me to your respect thread (nicely compiled, by the way) but I didn't see anything out of the ordinary.
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In the last part. If its not there, it must be a problem with my computer.
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Fixed it.
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Hmm. I still can't see it.
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It must have been i problem with my computer.
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That's unfortunate. I hope it gets resolved soon--I'm curious.
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I fixed it and I figured out the problem. The font seemed to have been messed up. Copy and paste the text to word and then convert it to the font called "symbol" and you can see it.
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@MasterOfArda Gotcha. I'm glad it was resolved.
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That's understandable. Movie Sauron is nowhere near book Sauron.
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Sauron. With the ring, i'd compare this guy more to Sargeras.
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I agree
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I read Sauron is page, and if i get it right(, after i read the comments), Sauron is ring is like a made up avatar for his body to outplay the rules of "gods". But if i get it right in that state he is actually weaker in terms of raw power.
I could write a long monologe about it, but in short i think the avatar is weaker than the Lich King, or in even foot, while the Sauron who is 4-C is not even in comparsion to Arthas, becuase i mean Sauron is in an another level. Oke.. actually im not sure, because these levels are a bit bad in vs ways, like somebody can defeat a star level character even if he is just a continental level character. Like in wow the Lich King is surely much stronger than Deathwing, or even in the level of Kil'Jaeden, but while Deathwing could destroy the planet if he wanted to, Arthas has no powers for that. To be honest in that universe many things dont work out well in power range.. Like the Lich King is mind 10000x of a very inteligent orc, Alexstrasza (dragon) put up a fight against Deathwing, but at the end the with the other dragons they instead used a relic to just weaken him.. Titans can destroy planets with a swordslash, but players will actually kill one. They changed the lore what had some power bases for the needs of players so much that we cant really understand what is where and whats happens. Likely powers sometimes counter each other and some can do something while the other cant.(Deathwing planetbuster, but Arthats is still likely much stronger) This was not short... all in all.. i think wow characters are some ways much stronger than we think. Maybe Arthas could easly destroy the full power of Sauron, maybe he would be onehitted, buuut i still think he is stronger than the avatar.. just by archivements.
I could write a long monologe about it, but in short i think the avatar is weaker than the Lich King, or in even foot, while the Sauron who is 4-C is not even in comparsion to Arthas, becuase i mean Sauron is in an another level. Oke.. actually im not sure, because these levels are a bit bad in vs ways, like somebody can defeat a star level character even if he is just a continental level character. Like in wow the Lich King is surely much stronger than Deathwing, or even in the level of Kil'Jaeden, but while Deathwing could destroy the planet if he wanted to, Arthas has no powers for that. To be honest in that universe many things dont work out well in power range.. Like the Lich King is mind 10000x of a very inteligent orc, Alexstrasza (dragon) put up a fight against Deathwing, but at the end the with the other dragons they instead used a relic to just weaken him.. Titans can destroy planets with a swordslash, but players will actually kill one. They changed the lore what had some power bases for the needs of players so much that we cant really understand what is where and whats happens. Likely powers sometimes counter each other and some can do something while the other cant.(Deathwing planetbuster, but Arthats is still likely much stronger) This was not short... all in all.. i think wow characters are some ways much stronger than we think. Maybe Arthas could easly destroy the full power of Sauron, maybe he would be onehitted, buuut i still think he is stronger than the avatar.. just by archivements.
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No. Not at all.
Ring Sauron fought Valar, ring Sauron required Eru himself to stop. The main boost of the ring was to his physical might.
Ring Sauron fought Valar, ring Sauron required Eru himself to stop. The main boost of the ring was to his physical might.
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I give this to Sauron i know that Arthas is rated at unknown and tat theres still some controversy regarding Sauron's tier but from my knowledge of both i'd give it to Sauron via versatility, experience and intelligence plus i think Sauron might have some powers missed on the profile.
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People have been talking about lack of info on the Lich King, but no one's mentioned the fact that Sauron has the same problem. Tolkien never really explained how magic works in the LotR world, which is why I dislike theoretical fights involving LotR characters. In order to get a feel for the power of a LotR character, we have to reverse-engineer what their powers are based on past feats and the feats of people on/near their level, a process that is obviously flawed and prone to mistakes.
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Wow.Rakanadyo said:It's true that in an overall sense, Sauron is the one lacking the most info. But when it comes to their profile and the info we can go by on VSBattles, Arthas is the one behind right now. He doesn't even have a tier yet.ThatCrimsonTomcat said:
Udlmaster
They/Them- 6,909
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Okay, let's put this to rest via Powerscaling from the Heroes of Azeroth. Okay, the Heroes of Azeroth from Vanilla are anywhere from Mountain level to country level, from Scaling from Raggy whom by just being summoned blew up an entire region of the map in Eastern Kingdoms as well as damaging the local area around said region and obliterating a major portion of the Dwarfen fighters like the Dark Iron, Wild hammer etc. Nefarian, who is also waring with Ragnoros over control of the Mountain and in short, the Region, was on par if not stronger then Ragnoros himself, since we've seen Nefarian's influence spread through the mountain. The Heroes of Azeroth slay them both. Then we get to Burning Crusade where things fly off the handle, we meet beings like Murmur, Dimensious and the like. These are Stated to be bare minimum Planetary beings as Murmur obliterated planets by whispering, and yes, while we do not fight his full powered version, we do fight a fraction of his power, which as shown, with but a bored yawn obliterated Planets. Dimensious the all-Devouring ate planets like they were his breakfast after fasting for years. The only time he's had difficulty with a Planet was the Etherial's homeworld of Kar'esh, where not only had the Etherials set up their advanced technology but the Naaru T'uure was there and sacrificed itself to save the to-be Etherials. With Scaling from these we can safely put beings like Illidan and the like at Planetary, and this makes sense later on. Then we get to the Wrath of the Lich King where we are stated to be stronger than before by multiple of the games story developers. Meaning we can scale beings like Murmur and Dimensious to them. And unlike before, we don't take out the Lich King's armies, we're having the actually weaken the Lich King, and at the end of the Expac, the Lich King is weakened enough for us to fight him, and even when he's like that he STILL one-shots either 10 or 25 Planet Level beings and laughs it off like it was nothing. If we're using full Power Lich King who was able to fight against the Fate Manipulating Nerubians, their impossibly strong silk, who was more or less allied with the Old Gods etc, I have total Faith in the Lich King.
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Its been a long time since I delved into either lore but off the top of my head I remember from the Silmarillion Sauron was more of a manipulator. Didnt he take part in some form of combat in that book, trying to transform between a large dog, vampire, snake etc and got schooled? I cannot say i have a high opinion of him, maybe the Lord of the rings books made him stronger, but I have only watched the movies and they paint him in a weak light.
As for Star destroying/planet busting Sauron, no idea where that came from, even his master Morgoth and his fights with the Valour and what have you never destroyed the one world they were fighting on and he was beaten again and again.
I suspect Arthas is closer to Sauron than you would expec, he has powers over life and death, his sword can take souls which i suspect would make it sufficent to devour the more spiritual power of Sauron. In fact, do no forget his mind powers as well, mental dominance was a thing for the Lich king at least, Arthas likely has this power when they formed as one, could he not just mind hax Sauron?
Finally I am fairly comfortable in saying Arthas would be an equal, if not greater threat to middle earth than Sauron was at least in the first and third ages if Arthas ruled mordor. It did not take Star level beings to defeat him as was mentioned before.
As for Star destroying/planet busting Sauron, no idea where that came from, even his master Morgoth and his fights with the Valour and what have you never destroyed the one world they were fighting on and he was beaten again and again.
I suspect Arthas is closer to Sauron than you would expec, he has powers over life and death, his sword can take souls which i suspect would make it sufficent to devour the more spiritual power of Sauron. In fact, do no forget his mind powers as well, mental dominance was a thing for the Lich king at least, Arthas likely has this power when they formed as one, could he not just mind hax Sauron?
Finally I am fairly comfortable in saying Arthas would be an equal, if not greater threat to middle earth than Sauron was at least in the first and third ages if Arthas ruled mordor. It did not take Star level beings to defeat him as was mentioned before.
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"Didnt he take part in some form of combat in that book, trying to transform between a large dog, vampire, snake etc and got schooled?"
He matched Huan, the hound of Valinor, in single combat, while weakened.
May I remind you that Huan killed Carcharoth, who had a Silmiral fueling him.
The Silmirals draw power from the Two Trees of Valinor.
Know who else drew power from the Two Trees?
Ungoliant.
"As for Star destroying/planet busting Sauron, no idea where that came from, even his master Morgoth and his fights with the Valour and what have you never destroyed the one world they were fighting on and he was beaten again and again. "
Are you claiming the Valar are not planet busters, because those are the guys that lifted millions of stars every second.
Sauron was at least 4-C via scaling from Arien, Arien got downgraded so so did he, but there is still discussion going on and the profiles are a bit of a mess now.
"I suspect Arthas is closer to Sauron than you would expec, he has powers over life and death, his sword can take souls which i suspect would make it sufficent to devour the more spiritual power of Sauron."
Sauron's soul can regenerate from total destruction and is completely intangible. There is no way FrostMourne could take Sauron's soul
"In fact, do no forget his mind powers as well, mental dominance was a thing for the Lich king at least, Arthas likely has this power when they formed as one, could he not just mind hax Sauron?"
You are talking about the guy who routed a city of superhumans with his mere pressence, and who was described as practically Satan. The Lich King's mind hax has nothing on him.
And finally:
"I cannot say i have a high opinion of him, maybe the Lord of the rings books made him stronger, but I have only watched the movies and they paint him in a weak light. "
Then you should read the books.
He matched Huan, the hound of Valinor, in single combat, while weakened.
May I remind you that Huan killed Carcharoth, who had a Silmiral fueling him.
The Silmirals draw power from the Two Trees of Valinor.
Know who else drew power from the Two Trees?
Ungoliant.
"As for Star destroying/planet busting Sauron, no idea where that came from, even his master Morgoth and his fights with the Valour and what have you never destroyed the one world they were fighting on and he was beaten again and again. "
Are you claiming the Valar are not planet busters, because those are the guys that lifted millions of stars every second.
Sauron was at least 4-C via scaling from Arien, Arien got downgraded so so did he, but there is still discussion going on and the profiles are a bit of a mess now.
"I suspect Arthas is closer to Sauron than you would expec, he has powers over life and death, his sword can take souls which i suspect would make it sufficent to devour the more spiritual power of Sauron."
Sauron's soul can regenerate from total destruction and is completely intangible. There is no way FrostMourne could take Sauron's soul
"In fact, do no forget his mind powers as well, mental dominance was a thing for the Lich king at least, Arthas likely has this power when they formed as one, could he not just mind hax Sauron?"
You are talking about the guy who routed a city of superhumans with his mere pressence, and who was described as practically Satan. The Lich King's mind hax has nothing on him.
And finally:
"I cannot say i have a high opinion of him, maybe the Lord of the rings books made him stronger, but I have only watched the movies and they paint him in a weak light. "
Then you should read the books.
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"May I remind you that Huan killed Carcharoth,"
Indeed, and died himself in the process. I also do not recall many planets being destroyed in their clash...
" guys that lifted millions of stars every second."
Do you have the quote for that?
"Sauron's soul can regenerate from total destruction and is completely intangible. There is no way FrostMourne could take Sauron's soul"
Any evidence of Sauron being able return from having his Soul sealed or devoured?
"routed a city of superhumans with his mere pressence"
What does this have to do with him resisting someone who can mentally dominate others?
"The Lich King's mind hax has nothing on him."
The Lich King can actually mentally dominate, in fact, his entire army of undeath is under his sway. if I recall one of the first things he did after landing in Icecrown was to dominate and manipulate the beings across that entire region to his whim.
"Then you should read the books."
Perhaps eventually, i already have a long reading list. Until then I appreciate any evidence provided from them that paint Sauron in a more favorable light than "got wounded by a giant dog and fled" which is the only combat feat I recall from the Silmarillion.
I concur with what has been said above, Sauron is one of those ambigious characters.
Indeed, and died himself in the process. I also do not recall many planets being destroyed in their clash...
" guys that lifted millions of stars every second."
Do you have the quote for that?
"Sauron's soul can regenerate from total destruction and is completely intangible. There is no way FrostMourne could take Sauron's soul"
Any evidence of Sauron being able return from having his Soul sealed or devoured?
"routed a city of superhumans with his mere pressence"
What does this have to do with him resisting someone who can mentally dominate others?
"The Lich King's mind hax has nothing on him."
The Lich King can actually mentally dominate, in fact, his entire army of undeath is under his sway. if I recall one of the first things he did after landing in Icecrown was to dominate and manipulate the beings across that entire region to his whim.
"Then you should read the books."
Perhaps eventually, i already have a long reading list. Until then I appreciate any evidence provided from them that paint Sauron in a more favorable light than "got wounded by a giant dog and fled" which is the only combat feat I recall from the Silmarillion.
I concur with what has been said above, Sauron is one of those ambigious characters.
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"Indeed, and died himself in the process. I also do not recall many planets being destroyed in their clash... "
I do not recall the fight of the Valar destroying planets either, that doesn't mean they can.
"Do you have a quote for that"
Varda made all the stars in the universe over 100 thousand years.
Seconds in a hundred thousand years=3153600000000
Stars in the universe=10^24
10^24/3153600000000=317097919837.64586504312531709792
Correction, billions.
"Any evidence of Sauron being able return from having his Soul sealed or devoured?"
Any evidence Frostmourne can even pierce his armour?
"The Lich King can actually mentally dominate, in fact, his entire army of undeath under his sway"
Controling mindless corpses is not impressive.
"Perhaps eventually, i already have a long reading list. Until then I appreciate any evidence provided from them that paint Sauron in a more favorable light than "got wounded by a giant dog and fled" which is the only combat feat I recall from the Silmarillion. "
The fact that you confused a giant dog with a beast of Multi-Galctic gods shows you have no knowledge of this issue.
I do not recall the fight of the Valar destroying planets either, that doesn't mean they can.
"Do you have a quote for that"
Varda made all the stars in the universe over 100 thousand years.
Seconds in a hundred thousand years=3153600000000
Stars in the universe=10^24
10^24/3153600000000=317097919837.64586504312531709792
Correction, billions.
"Any evidence of Sauron being able return from having his Soul sealed or devoured?"
Any evidence Frostmourne can even pierce his armour?
"The Lich King can actually mentally dominate, in fact, his entire army of undeath under his sway"
Controling mindless corpses is not impressive.
"Perhaps eventually, i already have a long reading list. Until then I appreciate any evidence provided from them that paint Sauron in a more favorable light than "got wounded by a giant dog and fled" which is the only combat feat I recall from the Silmarillion. "
The fact that you confused a giant dog with a beast of Multi-Galctic gods shows you have no knowledge of this issue.
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"I do not recall the fight of the Valar destroying planets either, that doesn't mean they can."
Your right, it does not. What was your point? You seemed ot be trying to scale some achivements from a hound that has few feats.
"Stars in the universe=10^24"
Is that our universe or Tolkiens? What kind of stars are they? I am doubtful you have any of this information. Your scale is from our universe, even though we know Tolkiens universe has some unusual rules a lot like ancient mythology. Didnt they have celestial bodies driven by a flying boat at one point?
If you can find me a quote that they somehow used physical means to move actual billions of stars then sure. Since we know a lot of the Tolkien universe was "sung" into existence I suspect the whole creation myth of the Silmarillion is as ambigious as many in terms of gauging it for a battle.
Still...again, were talking about Sauron, not the Valour. Have we any destructive feats of Sauron?
"Any evidence Frostmourne can even pierce his armour?"
Does it even have to? Does his armour have any feats?
"beast of Multi-Galctic gods"
Regardless of the power of the Valour themselves, what does this have to do with their pets? Have you a shred of evidence that "multi galactic" has any reason to be brought up concerning Huan? Or does he act, as I recall as a giant dog, with no great destructive feats to his name?
" shows you have no knowledge of this issue."
As much as the Silmarillion gives us, which is no amazing feats for said dog, regardless of who it belongs to.
Your right, it does not. What was your point? You seemed ot be trying to scale some achivements from a hound that has few feats.
"Stars in the universe=10^24"
Is that our universe or Tolkiens? What kind of stars are they? I am doubtful you have any of this information. Your scale is from our universe, even though we know Tolkiens universe has some unusual rules a lot like ancient mythology. Didnt they have celestial bodies driven by a flying boat at one point?
If you can find me a quote that they somehow used physical means to move actual billions of stars then sure. Since we know a lot of the Tolkien universe was "sung" into existence I suspect the whole creation myth of the Silmarillion is as ambigious as many in terms of gauging it for a battle.
Still...again, were talking about Sauron, not the Valour. Have we any destructive feats of Sauron?
"Any evidence Frostmourne can even pierce his armour?"
Does it even have to? Does his armour have any feats?
"beast of Multi-Galctic gods"
Regardless of the power of the Valour themselves, what does this have to do with their pets? Have you a shred of evidence that "multi galactic" has any reason to be brought up concerning Huan? Or does he act, as I recall as a giant dog, with no great destructive feats to his name?
" shows you have no knowledge of this issue."
As much as the Silmarillion gives us, which is no amazing feats for said dog, regardless of who it belongs to.
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"Your right, it does not. What was your point? You seemed ot be trying to scale some achivements from a hound that has few feats."
My point was that you don't have to destroy a planet every time you fight to be a planet buster.
Huan has only two feats:
Fighting Sauron
And
Fighting Carcharoth
I am making an upgarde thread for Carcharoth, which would scale him to "At least 4-A, likely 3-B"
So Sauron fought against a Multi-Galactic dog.
In addition he was weaknened at the time, so even while weakened he put up a good fight against a tier 3 monster.
I don't remeber the Lich King doing anything on that level.
"Is that our universe or Tolkiens? What kind of stars are they? I am doubtful you have any of this information. Your scale is from our universe, even though we know Tolkiens universe has some unusual rules a lot like ancient mythology. Didnt they have celestial bodies driven by a flying boat at one point?"
Read Morgoth's ring, many of those things are retconned.
Also, strange rules are irrelevant. Harry Potter has some strange magic rules, so I guess every single feat is invalid.
"If you can find me a quote that they somehow used physical means to move actual billions of stars then sure. Since we know a lot of the Tolkien universe was "sung" into existence I suspect the whole creation myth of the Silmarillion is as ambigious as many in terms of gauging it for a battle."
Indeed it was, but that is irrelevant.
Also creating billions of stars is not ambigous.
"Still...again, were talking about Sauron, not the Valour. Have we any destructive feats of Sauron?"
I guess we are no longer allowed to powerscale.
"Does it even have to? Does his armour have any feats?"
Let's use skin instead.
Do you have any evidence that Frostmourne can destroy countries, because that's Sauron's durability.
"Regardless of the power of the Valour themselves, what does this have to do with their pets? Have you a shred of evidence that "multi galactic" has any reason to be brought up concerning Huan? Or does he act, as I recall as a giant dog, with no great destructive feats to his name?"
Like I said, he scales to Carcharoth, who is AT LEAST 6-B.
So Huan is, AT LEAST, 6-B.
"As much as the Silmarillion gives us, which is no amazing feats for said dog, regardless of who it belongs to."
The dog is irrelevant.
How is it something against Sauron if he lost to Huan. We don't know Huan's upper limits, so why are we calling him a regular dog.
If he really is a regular dog then we would need to downgrade Sauron to 10-C.
My point was that you don't have to destroy a planet every time you fight to be a planet buster.
Huan has only two feats:
Fighting Sauron
And
Fighting Carcharoth
I am making an upgarde thread for Carcharoth, which would scale him to "At least 4-A, likely 3-B"
So Sauron fought against a Multi-Galactic dog.
In addition he was weaknened at the time, so even while weakened he put up a good fight against a tier 3 monster.
I don't remeber the Lich King doing anything on that level.
"Is that our universe or Tolkiens? What kind of stars are they? I am doubtful you have any of this information. Your scale is from our universe, even though we know Tolkiens universe has some unusual rules a lot like ancient mythology. Didnt they have celestial bodies driven by a flying boat at one point?"
Read Morgoth's ring, many of those things are retconned.
Also, strange rules are irrelevant. Harry Potter has some strange magic rules, so I guess every single feat is invalid.
"If you can find me a quote that they somehow used physical means to move actual billions of stars then sure. Since we know a lot of the Tolkien universe was "sung" into existence I suspect the whole creation myth of the Silmarillion is as ambigious as many in terms of gauging it for a battle."
Indeed it was, but that is irrelevant.
Also creating billions of stars is not ambigous.
"Still...again, were talking about Sauron, not the Valour. Have we any destructive feats of Sauron?"
I guess we are no longer allowed to powerscale.
"Does it even have to? Does his armour have any feats?"
Let's use skin instead.
Do you have any evidence that Frostmourne can destroy countries, because that's Sauron's durability.
"Regardless of the power of the Valour themselves, what does this have to do with their pets? Have you a shred of evidence that "multi galactic" has any reason to be brought up concerning Huan? Or does he act, as I recall as a giant dog, with no great destructive feats to his name?"
Like I said, he scales to Carcharoth, who is AT LEAST 6-B.
So Huan is, AT LEAST, 6-B.
"As much as the Silmarillion gives us, which is no amazing feats for said dog, regardless of who it belongs to."
The dog is irrelevant.
How is it something against Sauron if he lost to Huan. We don't know Huan's upper limits, so why are we calling him a regular dog.
If he really is a regular dog then we would need to downgrade Sauron to 10-C.
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"I am making an upgarde thread for Carcharoth, which would scale him to "At least 4-A, likely 3-B"
Well what is the synopsis for this upgrade? Because if i recall Carcharoth is also just a very large dog, having a Silmaril sent him mad and from the descripion made him larger and more powerful but neither he or Huan again proved anything signifcant in terms of feats, no planets, mountain ranges or what have you were destroyed, certainly no galaxies.
"so I guess every single feat is invalid."
If your refering to something that is explicitly diffrerent to our own and then scaling from our own universe then your making a logical error. If your just assuming with no evidence at all then even more so.
I would like to see evidence that the feats your refering to were not only the movement of real stars and what have you, unlike from what I know from reading the book.
"Read Morgoth's ring, many of those things are retconned."
As the folks in the other thread you posted said, we want to see the quotes from you. Telling me to read it as if that means I will automatically buy the book and read the whole thing just to see if your right is like me asking you to re-read every Warcraft lore book that mentions Arthas and those who can scale from him and then play all the games and you will find out hes far more than a match for Sauron.
I am pretty sure any information your ignorant of you would prefer to see evidence of yes?
"I guess we are no longer allowed to powerscale."
There is no logical scale to find for Sauron to a valour or indeed, their pets. If Sauron fought a valour and won then sure, maybe we could scale from that valours feats specifcally. If were just scaling due to them having a relationship then maybe Arthas/Lich King should scale from all the Titans in Warcraft since Sargeras was considered the strongest of them and the Lich King was created by the burning legion...
Loosely speaking we could probably scale the Lich King to half of Warcraft based on very loose or ambigious information.
"Also creating billions of stars is not ambigous."
Well yes it is, cartoon characters for example can create glowing lights in the sky and call them stars, many fictions and mythlogies may not consider "stars" as we do them realistically. We need to make sure their actually vast, celestial balls of fusion energy before we start scaling them highly.
Then, as far as feats are concerned consider how useful it is as a feat since we know the Valour do not sing stars into existence to fight their battles. In fact, if I recall a mere maiar was (Eonwe?) was consdiered the mightiest in Arda in terms of battle and Tulkus was one of the greater physical powers in Middle Earth.
Bear in mind Tolkiens world is not like Marvel, power is more simple in marvel but in Arda some beings are powerful creators, powerful destroyers and others are corruption (Morgoth) while a few like Tulkus, Eonwe etc are fighters.
"Do you have any evidence that Frostmourne can destroy countries, because that's Sauron's durability."
Lets see that durability feat first, wasnt Saurons fingers cut off by a mere human? No countries destroyed if I recall...
"So Huan is, AT LEAST, 6-B."
I thought Huan was one member of a party who hunted down the hound of Morgoth. Did he kill him alone? I will wait and see if it can be proven the dog is 6-B, depending on his size he could probably be a very large building level threat but other than that I cannot be certain. Huan himself is effectively horse sized If I recall.
"How is it something against Sauron if he lost to Huan. We don't know Huan's upper limits, so why are we calling him a regular dog."
That is like saying we do not know half of the opponents in Warcrafts upper limits, that does not mean we scale them up to galaxy or continent busting. We know Arthas as the Lich King can, in some respect be fought by humanoids with enhanced equipment and its exactly the same with Sauron, he can be fought by humans with special swords even with his ring, it did not take even building busting power to cut his flesh.
"If he really is a regular dog then we would need to downgrade Sauron to 10-C."
This is an extreme. Evidence suggests he is at the very least a very large dog, and clearly has some mysticaly properties but he has zero feats to put him on planetary levels and neither do any of his opponents. At best, we can say Huan is the equal of a very large dog, who he himself is a large dog. Sauron scales to them when in combat forms.
Arthas I would say is beyond any of those combat forms, serpants, large hounds etc, their far lower without further evidence than what Arthas has faced, which is to say armies of heroes who can face the most powerful beings in Warcraft, many of which are indeed large, elemental, magical dogs of all kinds of shapes and sizes.
Scaling from the heroes aside, Frostmourn cut through the ice of icecrown with ease, the same ice which was created in the furthest reaches in the void, tossed through space and survived planetfall into Icecrown. That was before the Lich King or Arthas melded and seemed to become more powerful.
Not sure how Sauron could harm Arthas, who seemed to be quite hard to defeat and was effectively immortal. He even removed his own heart if I recall (davy Jones style).
Well what is the synopsis for this upgrade? Because if i recall Carcharoth is also just a very large dog, having a Silmaril sent him mad and from the descripion made him larger and more powerful but neither he or Huan again proved anything signifcant in terms of feats, no planets, mountain ranges or what have you were destroyed, certainly no galaxies.
"so I guess every single feat is invalid."
If your refering to something that is explicitly diffrerent to our own and then scaling from our own universe then your making a logical error. If your just assuming with no evidence at all then even more so.
I would like to see evidence that the feats your refering to were not only the movement of real stars and what have you, unlike from what I know from reading the book.
"Read Morgoth's ring, many of those things are retconned."
As the folks in the other thread you posted said, we want to see the quotes from you. Telling me to read it as if that means I will automatically buy the book and read the whole thing just to see if your right is like me asking you to re-read every Warcraft lore book that mentions Arthas and those who can scale from him and then play all the games and you will find out hes far more than a match for Sauron.
I am pretty sure any information your ignorant of you would prefer to see evidence of yes?
"I guess we are no longer allowed to powerscale."
There is no logical scale to find for Sauron to a valour or indeed, their pets. If Sauron fought a valour and won then sure, maybe we could scale from that valours feats specifcally. If were just scaling due to them having a relationship then maybe Arthas/Lich King should scale from all the Titans in Warcraft since Sargeras was considered the strongest of them and the Lich King was created by the burning legion...
Loosely speaking we could probably scale the Lich King to half of Warcraft based on very loose or ambigious information.
"Also creating billions of stars is not ambigous."
Well yes it is, cartoon characters for example can create glowing lights in the sky and call them stars, many fictions and mythlogies may not consider "stars" as we do them realistically. We need to make sure their actually vast, celestial balls of fusion energy before we start scaling them highly.
Then, as far as feats are concerned consider how useful it is as a feat since we know the Valour do not sing stars into existence to fight their battles. In fact, if I recall a mere maiar was (Eonwe?) was consdiered the mightiest in Arda in terms of battle and Tulkus was one of the greater physical powers in Middle Earth.
Bear in mind Tolkiens world is not like Marvel, power is more simple in marvel but in Arda some beings are powerful creators, powerful destroyers and others are corruption (Morgoth) while a few like Tulkus, Eonwe etc are fighters.
"Do you have any evidence that Frostmourne can destroy countries, because that's Sauron's durability."
Lets see that durability feat first, wasnt Saurons fingers cut off by a mere human? No countries destroyed if I recall...
"So Huan is, AT LEAST, 6-B."
I thought Huan was one member of a party who hunted down the hound of Morgoth. Did he kill him alone? I will wait and see if it can be proven the dog is 6-B, depending on his size he could probably be a very large building level threat but other than that I cannot be certain. Huan himself is effectively horse sized If I recall.
"How is it something against Sauron if he lost to Huan. We don't know Huan's upper limits, so why are we calling him a regular dog."
That is like saying we do not know half of the opponents in Warcrafts upper limits, that does not mean we scale them up to galaxy or continent busting. We know Arthas as the Lich King can, in some respect be fought by humanoids with enhanced equipment and its exactly the same with Sauron, he can be fought by humans with special swords even with his ring, it did not take even building busting power to cut his flesh.
"If he really is a regular dog then we would need to downgrade Sauron to 10-C."
This is an extreme. Evidence suggests he is at the very least a very large dog, and clearly has some mysticaly properties but he has zero feats to put him on planetary levels and neither do any of his opponents. At best, we can say Huan is the equal of a very large dog, who he himself is a large dog. Sauron scales to them when in combat forms.
Arthas I would say is beyond any of those combat forms, serpants, large hounds etc, their far lower without further evidence than what Arthas has faced, which is to say armies of heroes who can face the most powerful beings in Warcraft, many of which are indeed large, elemental, magical dogs of all kinds of shapes and sizes.
Scaling from the heroes aside, Frostmourn cut through the ice of icecrown with ease, the same ice which was created in the furthest reaches in the void, tossed through space and survived planetfall into Icecrown. That was before the Lich King or Arthas melded and seemed to become more powerful.
Not sure how Sauron could harm Arthas, who seemed to be quite hard to defeat and was effectively immortal. He even removed his own heart if I recall (davy Jones style).
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Not sure how Sauron could harm Arthas, who seemed to be quite hard to defeat and was effectively immortal. He even removed his own heart if I recall (davy Jones style).
Sauron was also quite hard to defeat and was effectively immortal.
Sauron was also quite hard to defeat and was effectively immortal.
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