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"Well what is the synopsis for this upgrade? Because if i recall Carcharoth is also just a very large dog, having a Silmaril sent him mad and from the descripion made him larger and more powerful but neither he or Huan again proved anything signifcant in terms of feats, no planets, mountain ranges or what have you were destroyed, certainly no galaxies."
Carcharoth was powered by a Silmiral, which was fueled by the same light that fueled Ungoliant.
Ungoliant defeated a Valar, and, as explained on the page, Morgoth was still Valar tier at the time.
Just because no galaxies where destroyed doesn't mean that they can't destroy galaxies.
Just because Kratos doesn't bust continents doesn't mean he can't.
That's called area-of-effect, and bassically what it means is that in fiction a blow can be Star level even if it doesn't destroy theplanet your fighting on, despite this technically violating conservation of energy.
To quote: "The attack potency depends upon the energy output of the attack, not the area of effect of the attack. "
Even if it has large area-of-effect doesn't mean it has large power, and just becuase it has large power, doesn't mean it has large area of effect
Feats are not the only thing that matters, powerscaling does too. That's how we scale Sauron to Osse, Morgoth to Valar, and ignoring that in favor of the "If the didn't bust countries during their fight they can't" is the same as saying fictional characters can't go faster than light.
"If your refering to something that is explicitly diffrerent to our own and then scaling from our own universe then your making a logical error. If your just assuming with no evidence at all then even more so.
I would like to see evidence that the feats your refering to were not only the movement of real stars and what have you, unlike from what I know from reading the book."
The proof is that they're called stars, now you have to debunk that. You have to give on instance where does stars did not behave like stars.
You can't say "I don't know so prove it", I am not trying to convince you, I am trying to convince the people reading this debate.
The burden of proof is on you to say why Arthas wins, not on me to say why he doesn't.
I have given you evidence, however minor, and you need to provide evidence that they're not stars.
"Well yes it is, cartoon characters for example can create glowing lights in the sky and call them stars, many fictions and mythlogies may not consider "stars" as we do them realistically. We need to make sure their actually vast, celestial balls of fusion energy before we start scaling them highly.
Then, as far as feats are concerned consider how useful it is as a feat since we know the Valour do not sing stars into existence to fight their battles. In fact, if I recall a mere maiar was (Eonwe?) was consdiered the mightiest in Arda in terms of battle and Tulkus was one of the greater physical powers in Middle Earth.
Bear in mind Tolkiens world is not like Marvel, power is more simple in marvel but in Arda some beings are powerful creators, powerful destroyers and others are corruption (Morgoth) while a few like Tulkus, Eonwe etc are fighters. "
I have given you evidence for why they'are stars right above, now its your turn to disprove it.
Also, that feat proves they can manipulate that level of energy. They can make stars, planets, or just blast people with beams of energy.
I don't see how some characters being more skilled matters here.
So what if Eonwe is stronger than all the Valar (Which he isn't), that would upgrade him, not downgrade the Valar.
"Lets see that durability feat first, wasnt Saurons fingers cut off by a mere human? No countries destroyed if I recall..."
Sauron fought in physical combat against people of his level, and his level is Country level.
If he can tank country tier blows then that means you have to be able to blow up a country to kill him.
He is the strongest of the Maiar, and so scales to Osse, who has a feat, which was calced at Country level.
That means Sauron is Country level. Well, in truth, at least that since, being the strongest Maiar, he is strongest than Osse.
"This is an extreme. Evidence suggests he is at the very least a very large dog, and clearly has some mysticaly properties but he has zero feats to put him on planetary levels and neither do any of his opponents. At best, we can say Huan is the equal of a very large dog, who he himself is a large dog. Sauron scales to them when in combat forms.
Arthas I would say is beyond any of those combat forms, serpants, large hounds etc, their far lower without further evidence than what Arthas has faced, which is to say armies of heroes who can face the most powerful beings in Warcraft, many of which are indeed large, elemental, magical dogs of all kinds of shapes and sizes.
Scaling from the heroes aside, Frostmourn cut through the ice of icecrown with ease, the same ice which was created in the furthest reaches in the void, tossed through space and survived planetfall into Icecrown. That was before the Lich King or Arthas melded and seemed to become more powerful.
Not sure how Sauron could harm Arthas, who seemed to be quite hard to defeat and was effectively immortal. He even removed his own heart if I recall (davy Jones style). "
Huan has a feat, which is fighting Sauron, and he fought Carcharoth.
Also, what are combat forms?
And, Carcharoth was fed by a Silmiral, which is the same thing that fed Ungoliant. And Ungoliant had only three times that much power, which puts them in the same tier.
Check Ungoliants page and you'll know why I think their planet busters.
I explained why, just because he didn't destroy countries, doesn't mean he can't.
Same thing goes for Narsil.
Bassically, this is how it goes:
Huan=>Sauron>Osse=Country level via feat.
Huan fighting Sauron is not a reason to downgrade Sauron, rather a reason to upgrade Huan.
Carcharoth was powered by a Silmiral, which was fueled by the same light that fueled Ungoliant.
Ungoliant defeated a Valar, and, as explained on the page, Morgoth was still Valar tier at the time.
Just because no galaxies where destroyed doesn't mean that they can't destroy galaxies.
Just because Kratos doesn't bust continents doesn't mean he can't.
That's called area-of-effect, and bassically what it means is that in fiction a blow can be Star level even if it doesn't destroy theplanet your fighting on, despite this technically violating conservation of energy.
To quote: "The attack potency depends upon the energy output of the attack, not the area of effect of the attack. "
Even if it has large area-of-effect doesn't mean it has large power, and just becuase it has large power, doesn't mean it has large area of effect
Feats are not the only thing that matters, powerscaling does too. That's how we scale Sauron to Osse, Morgoth to Valar, and ignoring that in favor of the "If the didn't bust countries during their fight they can't" is the same as saying fictional characters can't go faster than light.
"If your refering to something that is explicitly diffrerent to our own and then scaling from our own universe then your making a logical error. If your just assuming with no evidence at all then even more so.
I would like to see evidence that the feats your refering to were not only the movement of real stars and what have you, unlike from what I know from reading the book."
The proof is that they're called stars, now you have to debunk that. You have to give on instance where does stars did not behave like stars.
You can't say "I don't know so prove it", I am not trying to convince you, I am trying to convince the people reading this debate.
The burden of proof is on you to say why Arthas wins, not on me to say why he doesn't.
I have given you evidence, however minor, and you need to provide evidence that they're not stars.
"Well yes it is, cartoon characters for example can create glowing lights in the sky and call them stars, many fictions and mythlogies may not consider "stars" as we do them realistically. We need to make sure their actually vast, celestial balls of fusion energy before we start scaling them highly.
Then, as far as feats are concerned consider how useful it is as a feat since we know the Valour do not sing stars into existence to fight their battles. In fact, if I recall a mere maiar was (Eonwe?) was consdiered the mightiest in Arda in terms of battle and Tulkus was one of the greater physical powers in Middle Earth.
Bear in mind Tolkiens world is not like Marvel, power is more simple in marvel but in Arda some beings are powerful creators, powerful destroyers and others are corruption (Morgoth) while a few like Tulkus, Eonwe etc are fighters. "
I have given you evidence for why they'are stars right above, now its your turn to disprove it.
Also, that feat proves they can manipulate that level of energy. They can make stars, planets, or just blast people with beams of energy.
I don't see how some characters being more skilled matters here.
So what if Eonwe is stronger than all the Valar (Which he isn't), that would upgrade him, not downgrade the Valar.
"Lets see that durability feat first, wasnt Saurons fingers cut off by a mere human? No countries destroyed if I recall..."
Sauron fought in physical combat against people of his level, and his level is Country level.
If he can tank country tier blows then that means you have to be able to blow up a country to kill him.
He is the strongest of the Maiar, and so scales to Osse, who has a feat, which was calced at Country level.
That means Sauron is Country level. Well, in truth, at least that since, being the strongest Maiar, he is strongest than Osse.
"This is an extreme. Evidence suggests he is at the very least a very large dog, and clearly has some mysticaly properties but he has zero feats to put him on planetary levels and neither do any of his opponents. At best, we can say Huan is the equal of a very large dog, who he himself is a large dog. Sauron scales to them when in combat forms.
Arthas I would say is beyond any of those combat forms, serpants, large hounds etc, their far lower without further evidence than what Arthas has faced, which is to say armies of heroes who can face the most powerful beings in Warcraft, many of which are indeed large, elemental, magical dogs of all kinds of shapes and sizes.
Scaling from the heroes aside, Frostmourn cut through the ice of icecrown with ease, the same ice which was created in the furthest reaches in the void, tossed through space and survived planetfall into Icecrown. That was before the Lich King or Arthas melded and seemed to become more powerful.
Not sure how Sauron could harm Arthas, who seemed to be quite hard to defeat and was effectively immortal. He even removed his own heart if I recall (davy Jones style). "
Huan has a feat, which is fighting Sauron, and he fought Carcharoth.
Also, what are combat forms?
And, Carcharoth was fed by a Silmiral, which is the same thing that fed Ungoliant. And Ungoliant had only three times that much power, which puts them in the same tier.
Check Ungoliants page and you'll know why I think their planet busters.
I explained why, just because he didn't destroy countries, doesn't mean he can't.
Same thing goes for Narsil.
Bassically, this is how it goes:
Huan=>Sauron>Osse=Country level via feat.
Huan fighting Sauron is not a reason to downgrade Sauron, rather a reason to upgrade Huan.
