Arcueid Revision

[Promestein]

Okay, so the page we have for Arcueid right now is kind of a mess.

I can find no statement of Warcueid/Red Arcueid being 30% as strong as full-powered Arcueid, except in relation to the Warc that Wallachia manifested. And Wallachia manifested Warc at that power because he couldn't handle the true extent of her power. In fact, all the statements I've seen say that Arcueid normally restricts 70% of her total power keeping her vampiric impulses in check; however, Warc has no such restrictions, and can thus call upon the full extent of her power. I played Tsukihime very recently, and everything that was implied or just flat out stated about Arcueid supports this.

What exactly is the difference between 30% Arcueid and Melty Blood Arcueid? Is Melty Blood Arcueid any stronger? Do we have anything to support her being so much stronger? Especially when Arcueid can't really... power up past 30% on account of constantly keeping her true power limited to keep herself from turning into Warc.

Then again, 30% Arcueid being Moon level would put her vastly above Servants, and even though she's individually superior to most of them, she's not that far above them. So the Moon level rating should probably apply to Marble Phantasm only.

So Arcueid's power is something like:

• Archetype: Earth >>>> Warcueid >>>> 30% Arcueid >>>> Post-Shiki Arcueid

Based on the information laid out here, my suggested stats are:

• 3-5% Arcueid: At least High 8-C.
• 30% Arcueid: 7-B to 6-C normally (based on Kami's calc). At least 5-C with Marble Phantasm, Low 5-B with Moon Drop.
• Red Arcueid / Warcueid: At least 5-A
• Archetype: Earth: Unknown for being so vastly above her other forms and generally being referred to as one of the strongest characters

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Does the percentage correlate to our Attack Potency chart?

 

[Promestein]

Does the percentage correlate to our Attack Potency chart?

Nope.

Warcueid is 5-A for being superior to Kiara by virtue of being strong enough to at least pose a threat to Amaterasu.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I see. I am not that well versed in Fate game but what you proposed sounds reasonable

 

[Alakabamm]

Yes, I agree with this.

 

[ThePerpetual]

I can't spot any problems with the OP's proposed changes.

 

[KamiYasha]

The fact is that Red Arcueid / Warcueid is just a stronger than 30% Arc and she doesn't have to hold her bloodlust, is not like she is using 100%. I think...

Also, maybe i'm wrong...but didn't Arc take control of her bloodlust at the end of Melty Blood? or something like that... or, Am i imagining things?

 

[Promestein]

I believe it has been stated that Warc is using the full extent of Arcueid's power. And Arc is limited to 30% because she uses 70% of her power to keep back her bloodlust, so Warcueid would presumably have access to 100% of said power without that restriction.

I also cannot remember anything like that happening.

 

[KamiYasha]

Ah, on Type-Moon's Wikia says this:

Believes that she is now using far less of its powers to suppress her vampiric impulses now as demonstrated in Kagetsu Tohya and Melty Blood Series, more or less about 50% of all their power is used for it now. When Red Arcueid is materialized by TATARI using the vampiric impulses of true Arcueid as a catalyst base to give it physical form, Arcueid is temporarily free from all his vampiric impulses, allowing it to use all of its powers.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

I've repased Tsukihime recently and i can say that i'm very ok with these changes. Although i must say that how the original Tsukihime handled the % is really strange. Because post-Shiki Arcueid should be practically incapable of holding her bloodlust if she needs 70% of her power. And the only time Warcueid really appears is in Ciel's route, and just because Shiki betrayed her.

 

[Promestein]

Ah. Moon feat doesn't scale to normal Arcueid, then, who'd presumably just be 7-B to 6-C. And actual Warc would presumably be equal to Melty Blood Arcueid, who would be around 5-A for being superior to Kiara / able to threaten Amaterasu.

We should probably just have a key for, as opposed to Melty Blood and Warcueid being separate, just "Full Power".

 

[Alakabamm]

Oh, yea, I forgot about the 50% arc thing.

Melty Blood (50%) would then be 5-C, low 5-B with moon drop

 

[KamiYasha]

That was the Arc before Roa Shenanigans.

Note: The 30% Arc is after Roa Shenanigans

So i assume like this:

• 3-5% Arcueid: At least High 8-C.
• 30% Arcueid: At least Low 7-B to 7-B
• Melty Blood (after recovering her power stolen by Roa): 7-B to 6-C normally (based on Kami's calc). At least 5-C with Marble Phantasm, Low 5-B with Moon Drop. Potentially at least 5-A
• Red Arcueid / Warcueid: At least 5-A
• Archetype: Earth: Unknown for being so vastly above her other forms and generally being referred to as one of the strongest characters

 

[KamiYasha]

Full power key sound good too.

 

[Alakabamm]

Melty Blood would still have to suppress her power though

 

[Promestein]

Yeah, Melty Blood Arc is 50%, until Warcueid is manifested and she temporarily loses her impulses. Presumably using the other 50% to restrain herself.

• 3-5% Arcueid: At least High 8-C
• 30% Arcueid: At least Low 7-B to 7-B
• 50% Arcueid: 7-B to 6-C
• Full Power (Temporarily during Melty Blood / Warcueid): At least 5-A (At least 5-C with Marble Phantasm and Low 5-B with Moon Drop)
• Archetype: Earth: Unknown

 

[KamiYasha]

Maybe it will become confusing putting so much "%"

I'm not sure about the "Temporarily" i just re-watched the escene of Wallachia and Arc only said that she could just maintain this place "MP" for a certain amount of time.

I feel like this is best and the less confusing.

• 3-5% Arcueid: At least High 8-C.
• 30% Arcueid: At least Low 7-B to 7-B
• After recovering her power stolen by Roa: 7-B to 6-C normally (based on Kami's calc).
• Melty Blood: At least 5-C with Marble Phantasm, Low 5-B with Moon Drop. Potentially At least 5-A
• Archetype: Earth: Unknown for being so vastly above her other forms and generally being referred to as one of the strongest characters

 

[Promestein]

It did say it was only temporary in the quote you posted. And she probably would have lost access to her full power once Wallachia's manifestation of Warcueid disappeared with him.

But all the percentages are confusing, yes. Maybe:

Tsukihime | 30% | Post-Tsukihime | Full Power | Archetype: Earth

 

[KamiYasha]

Yes, i just edited my latest comment.

 

[Yamatohime]

Red Arc has only 33% of Full Arc. MB Arc has 50% of her power.

 

[Promestein]

I don't know where you got the statement of Warc being 33% of Full Arc; Wallachia's Red Arc was much weaker, around 30%, as he couldn't handle her full power, but actual Warc is consistently stated to be Arc's full power outside of Archetype: Earth.

 

[Yamatohime]

Red Arc was stated to have 1/3 of Arc power. Warc in MBAA was created by White Len who is even weaker compared to Hologram Night.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Red Arc was stated to have 1/3 of Arc power. Warc in MBAA was created by White Len who is even weaker compared to Hologram Night.

So, are you trying to say that Red Arcueid is just 3% stronger than normal Arcueid?

That seems off. Specially because when Arcueid REALLY goes berserk in Tsukihime, Ciel, who before at least tried to stand her own against her. Decided that the best course of action was to take Shiki and get the **** out of there because Arcueid was going to kill them. I don't see that big of a difference by just a 3%

 

[Promestein]

I have played Tsukihime quite recently, and in it, it was stated, more than once, that as Warc, without holding back her vampiric impulses, she was vastly superior to her normal self and had access to the full extent of her power.

Literally the only thing I remember saying anything about Warc being 1/3 of full power Arc was Wallachia summoning a weaker version. White Len would presumably summon an even weaker one, too, but that's not relevant to the REAL Warc's power.

 

[Yamatohime]

1/3 of Full Arc power.

If we are talking about Demon Lord Arc (who was never shown)... She would have 100% power of Arc.

 

[Promestein]

You keep on saying that without really saying anything else.

Of course that's what we're talking about. That's what the REAL Warc is. The Warc that Wallachia and White Len summoned is a watered down replica of Arc's fears of what she'd become if she lost control of her bloodlust. And yeah, we never see the Real Warc, but the Real Warc has access to her full power, which is enough to potentially defeat Amaterasu.

Super watered down and weak Warc is not worth her own key, as she's basically the same as 30% Arc, just insane.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

"1/3 of Arcueid's full power"

What are you trying to infer? 1/3 of Archetype: Earth power or something like that?

I don't understeand.

 

[Yamatohime]

White Princess Arc has 100% power and... Sane.

 

[Promestein]

If you're referring to Archetype: Earth, she's separate from normal Arc and Warc and such.

And anyways, Warc is going to be grouped in with Full Power Melty Blood Arc in the key, anyways.

 

[Yamatohime]

No. White Princess is Arc before tasting blood. ATE is completely different being.

 

[Promestein]

Yes, I'm aware that they are separate. White Princess Arc would still have bloodlust to keep in, and even if she didn't, she'd fall under the "Full Power" key.

If there are no other problems, I can put the changes into action.

 

[Yamatohime]

No. White Princess didn't have bloodlust. It appears after tasting blood. Tsukihime even hinted that True Ancestors were sure that she didn't have it. All she knew was that... She needed something... She didn't supressed it.

 

[Promestein]

Okay. So she still falls under Full Power.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, it is hard to write on phone. When I'll come home I can write all versions of Arc.

 

[Promestein]

Is this relevant to the suggested changes or not, since otherwise, I could probably just go ahead and start applying said changes, since there seems to be no disagreements besides on terminology.

 

[Yamatohime]

Yeah, I will clarify some things and we can choose keys. Warc power is not equal to WP power. For example.

 

[Yamatohime]

So, I got home...

White Princess of True Ancestors. She is Arcuied in her purest form. No bloodlust, no emotions, maximum efficiency and combat performance. We could say she is the true 100% Arcuied. Manga feats.

Fallen White Princess. This is Arcuied after tasting Roa's blood. Roa managed to stole some of her power too. She had to use most of her power to supress her own bloodlust. Because of this she was weakened enough to be beaten by Black Princess of True Ancestors. No known feats.

First Encounter Tsukihime Arcuied. This is Arcuied we saw in the first encounter with Shiki. She is weaker compared to her Fallen state (by unknown margin) because she lost to Altrouge (who stole part of her power with her hair).

Main Story Tsukihime Arcuied. The weakest one. At least for majority of the story.

Kagetsu Tohya and Melty Blood Arcuied. This is Arcuied who restored some of her powers after Roa was killed once and for all. She was said to posses 50% of her True potential (while another 50% used to supress her bloodlust).

Red Arcuied/Warcuied. It should be noted that there are four variances: TATARI's, White Len's, DoO's and Fallen Arcuied. TATARI's one use only 1/3 of Fallen Arcuied potential. Others two incarnations should be weaker. The Fallen one though was never shown but if she has short hair - it should be weaker compared to White Princess overall but still superior in brute force.

Archetype Earth. This is the strongest Arcuied version. At this state she is very close to the Ultimate Ones, possess absolute authority over Gaia's Reality Marble and can oblitirate majority of Servants without effort.

 

[Alakabamm]

Wouldn't we just equate white princess with Warcuied? Warcuied has better feats anyways.

 

[Yamatohime]

Wouldn't we just equate white princess with Warcuied? Warcuied has better feats anyways.

White Princess should be stronger (unlike Warcuied she would be assisted by Gaia) but we do not have real feats. Just simple cameo of hers in the manga. The main problem I see is that... What kind of Arcuied we should put as 100% Arcuied.

White Princess probably the one who could compete with Amaterasu on the Moon.

 

[Alakabamm]

Well, we can do this by % (3-5, 30, 50, 100, ATE) or we can do it by progression like you seem to be suggesting. It doesn't particuarly matter, except that 100% applies for both Red Arc (true) and White Princess...there is the suggestion, I guess, that Altrouge still has a portion of Red Arc's power, but since true Red Arc is all theoretical at this point, it might be pointless to make that difference clear.