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And again there's other feats outside Solaris, and bad writting is not a argument, Penders sucked, next please
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Archie Sonic's Immortality Discussion
- Thread starter ElixirBlue
- Start date
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Except there's not. At the absolute best, there's one with Mammoth Mogul. And at best, you'd have to change the reasoning. Penders didn't suck (well, not with writing). It's just that his work is being taken out of context in order to give Sonic powers in exchange for breaking the story.
No offense. I do mean it.
No offense. I do mean it.
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"We are given enough details with just the encyclopedia to say Sonic's ring aura didn't revive him."
Where Foney? Where where where where? Are you getting this information? Because the encyclopedia details nothing about Sonic's death.
Where Foney? Where where where where? Are you getting this information? Because the encyclopedia details nothing about Sonic's death.
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The only reason why I am saying close this it's because there's a majority of staff and users who disagree, versus literaly 2 people, and they have argued with no conclusions for weeks, keeping it open is almost stonewalling so that you can get non knoweledgeable people to agree or for people to lose this battle of attrition, but you all do you
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"You also didn't disprove Sally killing Sonic, I stopped talking about it because A. proving type 8 in the first place was more prevelant and B. Mephelis is more straight forward. I even said that's why I stopped talking about it."
You gave up. Your argument was lacking.
You gave up. Your argument was lacking.
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There's Ultra's blatant feat, and his writting sucked, even ignoring power scaler nerds, like most of the community hated his writting, his lore, equidna obsession, etc. Power scalers are the least likely people to hate Penders im factThe real cal howard said:
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>Majority of staff
Only DDM and myself have responded here. Ant is constantly on the fence and has no opinion here.
Only DDM and myself have responded here. Ant is constantly on the fence and has no opinion here.
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Time travel through speed alone is his feat. Which is like, nobody gets. IDW Discord is getting downgraded, and SA Supes and gosh darned Wally West have it as separate speeds.
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I meant majority in general, including everyone
And we both know there's not many staff knoweledgeable on Sonic, outside of you two only Executor at best would come in the thread, and I honestely doubt he would agree tbh, tho I can be wrong
And we both know there's not many staff knoweledgeable on Sonic, outside of you two only Executor at best would come in the thread, and I honestely doubt he would agree tbh, tho I can be wrong
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Where Foney? Where where where where? Are you getting this information? Because the encyclopedia details nothing about Sonic's death.
Did you read the rest of that paragraph?
Also no, I literaly just explained how I did not give up, go back and read my old reply.
Did you read the rest of that paragraph?
Also no, I literaly just explained how I did not give up, go back and read my old reply.
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Though, why do you guys hate the echidna obsession? The lore there was leagues better, if I'm saying the right stuff. He started the Chaos Force and Enerjak and the like, right?
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Idc about other franchises, pretty sure time travelling via speed alone is textbook immesurable, I renember alot of staff disagreeing with you in other threads about this general subjectThe real cal howard said:
Even then that's unrelated to this thread, that doesn't debunk type 8 and all
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I read the rest of the paragraph. But you don't have any proof that Sonic had the Ring Aura during those events.Foneybone1 said:
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Sorry, not give up, just changed the subject as I was countering.Foneybone1 said:
At the time yes, you were just focusing on the EE event, But now you're claiming that I was just presenting arguments back then and not countering you.
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Because all off them are literal recolors, all of them literaly looks like Knuckles, the fanbase hated, that's a million memes about it, and the Chaos Force is for power level nerds, and Knuckles Enerjak and Dark Mobius were by Flynn, nobody liked Enerjak that much beforehand, like Dimitri EnerjakThe real cal howard said:
A example:https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...1T1Macy_6KUFG-2o4c3zy8-vBi5Br9BCzt4k9ZsKsEQPk
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...zyeX1nbxkX7vNF73tYCUwAa5hQJEI44u12QmFIkWMacN8
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...HrC9YrJ2BFhda8W7fXQqYv5wiJWhlwPDRVJeNzlqvTQ3D
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I'm pretty sure Sonic needing outside assistance to be revived does disprove type 8.
Who knew me saying "at risk of coming across as dismissing criticism," would be so relevant?
I attempted to change the subject, like I said, to the more prevalent topic. Establishing type 8 in the first place should have been the starting point to begin with. If you really want me to respond to your old comment then fine, but me trying to redirect the conversation is not giving up. (that reply was also a followup to my previous where I both offer a rebutal and try to change the subject but whatever)
We both presented counter arguments, but saying you countered my arguments gives the false impression that you definitivly disproved them. You can say you did, but I can also say I disproved yours, it doesn't mean much.
I attempted to change the subject, like I said, to the more prevalent topic. Establishing type 8 in the first place should have been the starting point to begin with. If you really want me to respond to your old comment then fine, but me trying to redirect the conversation is not giving up. (that reply was also a followup to my previous where I both offer a rebutal and try to change the subject but whatever)
We both presented counter arguments, but saying you countered my arguments gives the false impression that you definitivly disproved them. You can say you did, but I can also say I disproved yours, it doesn't mean much.
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... ok, what are you looking for? I was in the wrong to get frustrated and I apologize. I'm aware I was the one who contributed greatly to the unproductive back and forth.
Mephiles killing Sonic doesn't disprove Ring Aura, as Mephiles's method is unknown and that Unknown presents the possibility he removed Ring Aura in order to kill Sonic.
Silver's newspaper didn't say Sonic died, using flavor text like "destroyed" the group, and also mentioned Silver would be there. And then Silver was there, meaning the future predicted by the newspaper didn't change.
Ok, how convincing can you argue that it's not possible for Mephiles to remove Ring Aura and what points to Silver not following the prediction of the newspaper?
Mephiles killing Sonic doesn't disprove Ring Aura, as Mephiles's method is unknown and that Unknown presents the possibility he removed Ring Aura in order to kill Sonic.
Silver's newspaper didn't say Sonic died, using flavor text like "destroyed" the group, and also mentioned Silver would be there. And then Silver was there, meaning the future predicted by the newspaper didn't change.
Ok, how convincing can you argue that it's not possible for Mephiles to remove Ring Aura and what points to Silver not following the prediction of the newspaper?
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I've already mentioned that, if type 8 is real, Mephilis making Sonic vulnerable is a very important detail to leave out, in addition to the fact that him being able to overcome Sonic's ring aura when massively more powerful characters can't would be crazy inconsistent. Also, Saying he could have immortality negation on the grounds that we aren't told he doesn't is effectively confirmation bias.
I probably won't have a response regarding Silver until tomorrow since I basically have to explain Silver's time travel and the Genesis Wave.
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I still think Elixer is making more sense. The SWAT bot was clearly not BFR'ing Sonic as that was addressed many times that there's no proof that their lasers teleport objects as opposed to just vaporizing them. If they were being teleported, then it would be more so the ring's power and not the kids or Swat Bot. Also, we clearly see a smoke like substance rise, as Sonic gets blasted; which clearly suggests that's the vapor of his body. Also, I will point out that cloning him slightly before he gets vaporized makes more sense the a simple BFR; as it would still explain the vapor.
However, I still think it makes more sense to say he simply regenerates.
However, I still think it makes more sense to say he simply regenerates.
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This reasoning isn't good enough for it not to be possible.Foneybone1 said:
"Because it wasn't detail, it means it doesn't exist."
The encyclopedia itself doesn't acknowledge the one billionth ring existence when it does exist in the story. That fact alone mitigates the "it was a very important detail to leave out" when the entire Encyclopedia left out the one billionth ring.
Also, just because something seems inconsistent doesn't mean it isn't factual. Bad writing exists in Archie Sonic.
Confirmation bias works in the other direction too, you know.
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Saying that we aren't told Mephelis didn't do the specific thing he needs to do for type 8 to still work, so he definitely could have done it to dismiss what we are told is confirmation bias. (it may also be a self-fulfilling prophecy but I'm not sure) With that same logic, one could make the argument that since we aren't told exactly how they defeated Solaris, we can't say base Sonic didn't do it alone, but that's not proof of anything. Even if we were told that Sonic was killed exactly like in the game, the same excuse could be used, "we don't know Mephelis didn't remove Sonic's immortality with the flash of purple light (l think it was a Chaos Emerald but idr) or that his attack doesn't bypass immortality, so him killing Sonic doesn't disprove type 8," it's not an argument, it's a deflection. What we are told is Sonic was killed and needed assistance returning. Me choosing to believe that is not confirmation bias.
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Okay, this is a lot, but it's time travel so it's complicated.
There are four versions of the prime timeline. There's one where Silver never appears in the past, the Freedom Fighters are defeated, and the future is in ruin. When Silver goes back in time for the first time to fix the future, he creates the second timeline. It's explained that when he returns to the future history plays out differently due to his presence in the past, but this only includes times he has already gone back. For example, in this second timeline, Silver would only appear in 194-196. This is how the story works. After he creates the third timeline in issue 215, Silver again explains that his present is changed by his actions each time he returns, again showing that any trip to the past he has yet to take has not affected the future. He goes back a third time in 235 creating the fourth timeline, this is the timeline we witness in the comic as Silver appears all three times.
To summarize: there is a version of the story that plays out without Silver, one where Silver only appears in 194 and no other time, one where he only appears in 194 and 215, and the one we see where he appears in 194, 215, and 235. Before Silver goes back in time in issue 235 he is currently in the future of the timeline where he has only gone back twice. He was not there to act out what we see before he goes back. This is not speculation, this is the way time-travel is presented to us.
It's entirely possible each timeline only has Silver himself travel back once, but Silver, being unaffected by the reacted timeline, experiences three trips, however, it's not elaborated to that extent. Regardless, there cannot be a trip to the past Silver does not know about because he remains unchanged upon returning to the future. There also cannot be changes to the future caused by a trip to the past he has not taken yet as the future only changes after he returns. If trips he has not takes yet affect the future, then the future would not change when he returns as the change would already have occurred.
The journal is not referring to Silver's actions during his last trip, because as explained above, it can't. He can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. All it says is Silver fought alongside Sonic, but the only time this happens during his last trip was when he saves him, meaning the Freedom Fighters aren't defeated. Therefore it can only be refering to 194 and or 215 as in both trips Silver fights alongside Sonic in ways people would have known about. Silver himself says the Freedom Fighters vanished during "this period", but the timeframe he is working under for the betrayal to happen covers over 50 issues so this similarly is not limited to his last trip.
I'd like to note that Silver is not reading from the newspaper, he is showing Mogul the picture while reading from the journal (not that it makes a difference) Silver doesn't act out the journal/newspaper because that's not how it works. The timeline does not change until Silver time-travels, and history cannot reflect actions that have not taken place. Again, he can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. If he had already gone back and saved Sonic the the future would reflect that, and he would remember due to being desynced from time.
The way Silver says, "The Freedom Fighters vanish during this period," is written more as him starting a new thought that is his own rather than continuing to paraphrase the journal, but even if he was reading it verbatim, it's impossible for the journal or the newspaper to be talking about the Genesis Wave. For one thing, no one on Mobius knows it happened to be able to write about it, but also, the Genesis Wave didn't cause anyone to vanish from the zone, it rewrote it; the reality the document was talking about no longer exists. It didn't make Sonic and the Freedom Fighters vanish, it replaced their reality with a new one. (one the Freedom Fighters still existed in as well) Even Silver is rewritten and shows up in this new reality for different reasons. The Genesis Wave's effect cannot result in what the journal says nor can the journal exist after the Genesis Wave in the state Silver found it in prior.
Sally was going to kill Sonic, the only reason she didn't is because Silver was there, but he wasn't there to save him in his past before his last trip. Sally killed Sonic in Silver's past.
Note: there is also the 06 story, but Ian has explained that due to it retconning itself, it doesn't matter
There are four versions of the prime timeline. There's one where Silver never appears in the past, the Freedom Fighters are defeated, and the future is in ruin. When Silver goes back in time for the first time to fix the future, he creates the second timeline. It's explained that when he returns to the future history plays out differently due to his presence in the past, but this only includes times he has already gone back. For example, in this second timeline, Silver would only appear in 194-196. This is how the story works. After he creates the third timeline in issue 215, Silver again explains that his present is changed by his actions each time he returns, again showing that any trip to the past he has yet to take has not affected the future. He goes back a third time in 235 creating the fourth timeline, this is the timeline we witness in the comic as Silver appears all three times.
To summarize: there is a version of the story that plays out without Silver, one where Silver only appears in 194 and no other time, one where he only appears in 194 and 215, and the one we see where he appears in 194, 215, and 235. Before Silver goes back in time in issue 235 he is currently in the future of the timeline where he has only gone back twice. He was not there to act out what we see before he goes back. This is not speculation, this is the way time-travel is presented to us.
It's entirely possible each timeline only has Silver himself travel back once, but Silver, being unaffected by the reacted timeline, experiences three trips, however, it's not elaborated to that extent. Regardless, there cannot be a trip to the past Silver does not know about because he remains unchanged upon returning to the future. There also cannot be changes to the future caused by a trip to the past he has not taken yet as the future only changes after he returns. If trips he has not takes yet affect the future, then the future would not change when he returns as the change would already have occurred.
The journal is not referring to Silver's actions during his last trip, because as explained above, it can't. He can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. All it says is Silver fought alongside Sonic, but the only time this happens during his last trip was when he saves him, meaning the Freedom Fighters aren't defeated. Therefore it can only be refering to 194 and or 215 as in both trips Silver fights alongside Sonic in ways people would have known about. Silver himself says the Freedom Fighters vanished during "this period", but the timeframe he is working under for the betrayal to happen covers over 50 issues so this similarly is not limited to his last trip.
I'd like to note that Silver is not reading from the newspaper, he is showing Mogul the picture while reading from the journal (not that it makes a difference) Silver doesn't act out the journal/newspaper because that's not how it works. The timeline does not change until Silver time-travels, and history cannot reflect actions that have not taken place. Again, he can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. If he had already gone back and saved Sonic the the future would reflect that, and he would remember due to being desynced from time.
The way Silver says, "The Freedom Fighters vanish during this period," is written more as him starting a new thought that is his own rather than continuing to paraphrase the journal, but even if he was reading it verbatim, it's impossible for the journal or the newspaper to be talking about the Genesis Wave. For one thing, no one on Mobius knows it happened to be able to write about it, but also, the Genesis Wave didn't cause anyone to vanish from the zone, it rewrote it; the reality the document was talking about no longer exists. It didn't make Sonic and the Freedom Fighters vanish, it replaced their reality with a new one. (one the Freedom Fighters still existed in as well) Even Silver is rewritten and shows up in this new reality for different reasons. The Genesis Wave's effect cannot result in what the journal says nor can the journal exist after the Genesis Wave in the state Silver found it in prior.
Sally was going to kill Sonic, the only reason she didn't is because Silver was there, but he wasn't there to save him in his past before his last trip. Sally killed Sonic in Silver's past.
Note: there is also the 06 story, but Ian has explained that due to it retconning itself, it doesn't matter
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"Note: there is also the 06 story, but Ian has explained that due to it retconning itself, it doesn't matter"
Well, if the consensus is that we are ignoring the Sonic 06 adaptation that has no proof it follows the game events to a tie, I'll move on.
The newspaper Silver is using as evidence for Mogul to send him back to the past, that he himself earnestly believes is true, says Silver fights along side Sonic as they fight Sonic's "former friend".
The only one that applies to is Mecha Sally. Silver's main goal. The information around the traitor is always given to Silver in half-truths.
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The issue is, while you present a good argument that silver always changes the future, was the future changed? He never went back to the future to find out if he changed anything.
While it's true Silver changed the future when he fought Scourge and helped Rotor, but none of those times had something say he was going to appear there before he traveled back in time, like the newspaper did.
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I don't understand the logic behind this panel being used as evidence that Sally killed Sonic.
If you want, I can go back throughout the comic and find dozens of examples of people or robots having the intention of killing or almost "killing" Sonic.
I don't Understand how that panel is used as proof.
Well, if the consensus is that we are ignoring the Sonic 06 adaptation that has no proof it follows the game events to a tie, I'll move on.
Except, it can't be when Silver fought Scourge or when he helped Rotor. The title of the newspaper says "Sonic battles former friend" (not "Sonic dies to former friend").Foneybone1 said:
The newspaper Silver is using as evidence for Mogul to send him back to the past, that he himself earnestly believes is true, says Silver fights along side Sonic as they fight Sonic's "former friend".
The only one that applies to is Mecha Sally. Silver's main goal. The information around the traitor is always given to Silver in half-truths.
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Any information that alludes to events past Antione getting into a coma came from the newspaper. That is a non-negotiable fact.Foneybone1 said:
The issue is, while you present a good argument that silver always changes the future, was the future changed? He never went back to the future to find out if he changed anything.
While it's true Silver changed the future when he fought Scourge and helped Rotor, but none of those times had something say he was going to appear there before he traveled back in time, like the newspaper did.
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I don't understand the logic behind this panel being used as evidence that Sally killed Sonic.
If you want, I can go back throughout the comic and find dozens of examples of people or robots having the intention of killing or almost "killing" Sonic.
I don't Understand how that panel is used as proof.
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gosh l hope this is formatted right
Well, if the consensus is that we are ignoring the Sonic 06 adaptation that has no proof it follows the game events to a tie, I'll move on.
Could you elaborate on this? 06 happened, and it happens the way the encyclopedia says, it just retcons itself. It doesn't matter in the sense that it has no bearing on Silver's time travel escapades.
Except, it can't be when Silver fought Scourge or when he helped Rotor. The title of the newspaper says "Sonic battles former friend" (not "Sonic dies to former friend").
Silver is not reading that piece of newspaper when he says there's a page about him fighting alongside Sonic. He's showing the photo to Mogul while looking into the journal and says, "here's a page saying…" He's talking about a different page; they are two separate pieces of information that are not intrinsically linked. The piece of newspaper is more than likely a picture form the events of 236 as that was witnessed by the public and no one would have been able to take a photo of the events of 247 to put in a newspaper. Even if it was a picture from 247, that doesn't mean Silver was there, because not only is what he reads about him fighting alongside Sonic from a different source but also the comic's time-travel rules don't allow that to even be possible.
The newspaper Silver is using as evidence for Mogul to send him back to the past, that he himself earnestly believes is true, says Silver fights along side Sonic as they fight Sonic's "former friend".
Like stated earlier, Silver did not read about him fighting alongside Sonic from that newspaper piece. We don't know what time the other page about him fighting alongside Sonic is referring to, but with the time-travel rules the comic sets up, it cannot be about 247.
Any information that alludes to events past Antione getting into a coma came from the newspaper. That is a non-negotiable fact.
This is true, but the only information that we know takes place after Antione falls into a coma is the photo. Nothing Silver actually reads for us is guaranteed to have taken place after or alongside that photo. To repeat part of my last comment, Silver can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. If he had already gone back and saved Sonic the future would reflect that, and he would remember due to being desynced from time.
The issue is, while you present a good argument that silver always changes the future, was the future changed? He never went back to the future to find out if he changed anything.
I realize the way I worded my explanation implies the timeline is only changed upon his return to the future, but this is not the case. When he performs an action in the past, the future is changed, while he remains unchanged. Him returning to the future is not a requirement.
While it's true Silver changed the future when he fought Scourge and helped Rotor, but none of those times had something say he was going to appear there before he traveled back in time, like the newspaper did.
There wasn't anything saying that this time either, the comic's rules of time-travel make that impossible. The newspaper he showed Mogul did not say that. The journal says he fought alongside Sonic, but to say it's referring to an event Silver hasn't yet experienced goes against the comic's rules of time-travel.
I don't Understand how that panel is used as proof
It was used in conjunction with the page showing Silver being the only thing that stopped her from killing Sonic.
Well, if the consensus is that we are ignoring the Sonic 06 adaptation that has no proof it follows the game events to a tie, I'll move on.
Could you elaborate on this? 06 happened, and it happens the way the encyclopedia says, it just retcons itself. It doesn't matter in the sense that it has no bearing on Silver's time travel escapades.
Except, it can't be when Silver fought Scourge or when he helped Rotor. The title of the newspaper says "Sonic battles former friend" (not "Sonic dies to former friend").
Silver is not reading that piece of newspaper when he says there's a page about him fighting alongside Sonic. He's showing the photo to Mogul while looking into the journal and says, "here's a page saying…" He's talking about a different page; they are two separate pieces of information that are not intrinsically linked. The piece of newspaper is more than likely a picture form the events of 236 as that was witnessed by the public and no one would have been able to take a photo of the events of 247 to put in a newspaper. Even if it was a picture from 247, that doesn't mean Silver was there, because not only is what he reads about him fighting alongside Sonic from a different source but also the comic's time-travel rules don't allow that to even be possible.
The newspaper Silver is using as evidence for Mogul to send him back to the past, that he himself earnestly believes is true, says Silver fights along side Sonic as they fight Sonic's "former friend".
Like stated earlier, Silver did not read about him fighting alongside Sonic from that newspaper piece. We don't know what time the other page about him fighting alongside Sonic is referring to, but with the time-travel rules the comic sets up, it cannot be about 247.
Any information that alludes to events past Antione getting into a coma came from the newspaper. That is a non-negotiable fact.
This is true, but the only information that we know takes place after Antione falls into a coma is the photo. Nothing Silver actually reads for us is guaranteed to have taken place after or alongside that photo. To repeat part of my last comment, Silver can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. If he had already gone back and saved Sonic the future would reflect that, and he would remember due to being desynced from time.
The issue is, while you present a good argument that silver always changes the future, was the future changed? He never went back to the future to find out if he changed anything.
I realize the way I worded my explanation implies the timeline is only changed upon his return to the future, but this is not the case. When he performs an action in the past, the future is changed, while he remains unchanged. Him returning to the future is not a requirement.
While it's true Silver changed the future when he fought Scourge and helped Rotor, but none of those times had something say he was going to appear there before he traveled back in time, like the newspaper did.
There wasn't anything saying that this time either, the comic's rules of time-travel make that impossible. The newspaper he showed Mogul did not say that. The journal says he fought alongside Sonic, but to say it's referring to an event Silver hasn't yet experienced goes against the comic's rules of time-travel.
I don't Understand how that panel is used as proof
It was used in conjunction with the page showing Silver being the only thing that stopped her from killing Sonic.
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Could you elaborate on this? 06 happened, and it happens the way the encyclopedia says, it just retcons itself. It doesn't matter in the sense that it has no bearing on Silver's time travel escapades.
"Could you elaborate on this?" No? Because I don't understand why you brought up Sonic 06 when talking about Archie Silver.
Silver is not reading that piece of newspaper when he says there's a page about him fighting alongside Sonic. He's showing the photo to Mogul while looking into the journal and says, "here's a page saying…" He's talking about a different page; they are two separate pieces of information that are not intrinsically linked. The piece of newspaper is more than likely a picture form the events of 236 (234 :/) as that was witnessed by the public (the public wasn't there) and no one would have been able to take a photo of the events of 247 to put in a newspaper. Even if it was a picture from 247, that doesn't mean Silver was there, because not only is what he reads about him fighting alongside Sonic from a different source but also the comic's time-travel rules don't allow that to even be possible.
"Look! I found this picture of Sonic fighting Antione." Obviously, it was a photo of Sonic fighting Mecha Sally.
In the same breath. "Here's a page saying something about me fighting side-by-side with Sonic." If the words came from the journal, it would have to surround the events came before Antione went into a coma. Meaning, Silver, who's been meticulously analyzing the journal for information, Silver would have recognized the events surrounding himself he was already a part of even if some of the words were missing.
Antione's personal journal wouldn't record Rotor's secret adventure to the north so it would have to be with Scourge, right? But Antione didn't see Silver as anyone special and would've written a lot more names down that couldn't have all been erased from time only leaving Silver. Meaning, Silver shouldn't have seen fighting side-by-side with Sonic as new information if that was the case. But he did.
"The Freedom Fighters vanish during this period." Again, that information can't come from the journal. So, your logic is: picture (newspaper), side-by-side (Journal), Vanish (newspaper) in one breath.
Foney says: "only information that we know takes place after Antione falls into a coma is the photo. Nothing Silver actually reads for us is guaranteed to have taken place after or alongside that photo."
Except, there is nothing in Antione's life he would have described as "the Freedom Fighters vanished."
To repeat part of my last comment, Silver can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. If he had already gone back and saved Sonic the future would reflect that, and he would remember due to being desynced from time.
"Silver can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself."
Foney, could you find the rules of where it says that he can't in Archie Sonic's lore? If you're using logic from other series, we can't use that.
Foneybone1"]
[/quote]It was used in conjunction with the page showing Silver being the only thing that stopped her from killing Sonic.
Yes, that doesn't prove Mecha Sally managed to killed Sonic. She was always meant to be stopped by Silver, no matter what.
Here is the biggest thing: No matter what Silver did, nothing he did influenced the Genesis Wave/Super Genesis Wave from happening or not happening.
"Could you elaborate on this?" No? Because I don't understand why you brought up Sonic 06 when talking about Archie Silver.
Silver is not reading that piece of newspaper when he says there's a page about him fighting alongside Sonic. He's showing the photo to Mogul while looking into the journal and says, "here's a page saying…" He's talking about a different page; they are two separate pieces of information that are not intrinsically linked. The piece of newspaper is more than likely a picture form the events of 236 (234 :/) as that was witnessed by the public (the public wasn't there) and no one would have been able to take a photo of the events of 247 to put in a newspaper. Even if it was a picture from 247, that doesn't mean Silver was there, because not only is what he reads about him fighting alongside Sonic from a different source but also the comic's time-travel rules don't allow that to even be possible.
"Look! I found this picture of Sonic fighting Antione." Obviously, it was a photo of Sonic fighting Mecha Sally.
In the same breath. "Here's a page saying something about me fighting side-by-side with Sonic." If the words came from the journal, it would have to surround the events came before Antione went into a coma. Meaning, Silver, who's been meticulously analyzing the journal for information, Silver would have recognized the events surrounding himself he was already a part of even if some of the words were missing.
Antione's personal journal wouldn't record Rotor's secret adventure to the north so it would have to be with Scourge, right? But Antione didn't see Silver as anyone special and would've written a lot more names down that couldn't have all been erased from time only leaving Silver. Meaning, Silver shouldn't have seen fighting side-by-side with Sonic as new information if that was the case. But he did.
"The Freedom Fighters vanish during this period." Again, that information can't come from the journal. So, your logic is: picture (newspaper), side-by-side (Journal), Vanish (newspaper) in one breath.
Foney says: "only information that we know takes place after Antione falls into a coma is the photo. Nothing Silver actually reads for us is guaranteed to have taken place after or alongside that photo."
Except, there is nothing in Antione's life he would have described as "the Freedom Fighters vanished."
To repeat part of my last comment, Silver can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. If he had already gone back and saved Sonic the future would reflect that, and he would remember due to being desynced from time.
"Silver can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself."
Foney, could you find the rules of where it says that he can't in Archie Sonic's lore? If you're using logic from other series, we can't use that.
Foneybone1"]
[/quote]It was used in conjunction with the page showing Silver being the only thing that stopped her from killing Sonic.
Yes, that doesn't prove Mecha Sally managed to killed Sonic. She was always meant to be stopped by Silver, no matter what.
Here is the biggest thing: No matter what Silver did, nothing he did influenced the Genesis Wave/Super Genesis Wave from happening or not happening.
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ElixirBlue said:
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My stance is that there is potential evidence that the ring aura is what revived him in issue 50, but there is also evidence that it wasn't necessarily. The OP mostly goes over information told in the comic and encyclopedia that opens up the possibility that Sonic returned from EE the same as everyone else who popped out of existence.
Both interpretations have merit given issue 50, but the rest of the OP explains that there is evidence that only goes against the interpretation that Sonic has type 8.
Sonic's ring aura (the thing his type 8 is credited to) required outside assistance to preform a less impressive feat compared to undoing EE. Additionally, Sonic has been killed before, once by Mephelis which also requiring outside assistance to undo, and at minimum once by Mecha Sally. The last couple of comments are about the instance of Mecha Sally killing Sonic.
Both interpretations have merit given issue 50, but the rest of the OP explains that there is evidence that only goes against the interpretation that Sonic has type 8.
Sonic's ring aura (the thing his type 8 is credited to) required outside assistance to preform a less impressive feat compared to undoing EE. Additionally, Sonic has been killed before, once by Mephelis which also requiring outside assistance to undo, and at minimum once by Mecha Sally. The last couple of comments are about the instance of Mecha Sally killing Sonic.
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Well, getting Robotized doesn't destroy Sonic's life force like EE does. Robotnik has later shown to know how to manipulate life force energy, which is what the Burn-Brain program was trying to do.
ShakeResounding
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You must have just let 98% of the thread fly above your head, buddy
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 7,970
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Getting Roboticized, as Elixir said, doesn't destroy Sonic's Life Force akin to what the Ultimate Annihilator did. Robotnik specifically knows how to tamper with Life Force energy, which would obviously be far more difficult for the One Billionth Ring to adjust to and help fix.
I'm not going to repeat what's already been said, but you obviously don't actually know the context if that's what you have to say about the EE situation.
I'm not going to repeat what's already been said, but you obviously don't actually know the context if that's what you have to say about the EE situation.
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Yeah so something that doesn't destroy life force should be easier to heal so it doesn't contradict anything and just make type 8 more unjustified.
No, if it's capable of fully bringing back from nothing, just doing a factory reset should be easy as hell.
What i know from this thread make it pretty clear to me at least.
No, if it's capable of fully bringing back from nothing, just doing a factory reset should be easy as hell.
What i know from this thread make it pretty clear to me at least.
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Really? The ring is stated to protect Sonic's life force, not protect Sonic from transmutation. How is that considered weak?
The 1 Billionth Ring wasn't protecting Sonic from Robotization, that wasn't effecting Sonic's Life Force, but it was protecting Sonic from the Brain Burn Program, that was effecting Sonic's life Force.
EE won't just be effecting Sonic's form, but also his Life Force.
Saying the 1 Billionth Ring is weak for not protecting Sonic's form is saying Water is weak because its form changes by temperature.
The 1 Billionth Ring wasn't protecting Sonic from Robotization, that wasn't effecting Sonic's Life Force, but it was protecting Sonic from the Brain Burn Program, that was effecting Sonic's life Force.
EE won't just be effecting Sonic's form, but also his Life Force.
Saying the 1 Billionth Ring is weak for not protecting Sonic's form is saying Water is weak because its form changes by temperature.
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Or it's like saying Ground Type Pokémon are weak because while they are immune to Electricity, they can still be defeated using Normal attacks.
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Well I forgot to post this like a week ago.
First, putting responses inside quotes is confusing. I meant 236. Sonic and Sally fight in Furville and it's witnessed by the public, ergo 236 not 234.
I don't understand why you brought up Sonic 06 when talking about Archie Silver.
Iironically brought it up to remove confusion since the story involves Silver time traveling. 06 is canon to Archie, but it's irrelevant to this current discussion about Silver.
If the words came from the journal, it would have to surround the events came before Antione went into a coma. Meaning, Silver, who's been meticulously analyzing the journal for information, Silver would have recognized the events surrounding himself he was already a part of even if some of the words were missing.
Silver being in the past can't be new information to him. He's desynced from time; he knows about all of his previous trips. If he's reading about his actions in 235-247, not only would he remember, but it would mean he's already performed said actions and wouldn't need to go back and do them. Since he hadn't gone back to 235 yet, Silver couldn't historically be there. The page Silver reads can only be referring to 194 and or 215 as those where the only times Silver existed in the past at that point; it is impossible for it to be referring to 247.
Antione's personal journal wouldn't record Rotor's secret adventure to the north so it would have to be with Scourge, right? But Antione didn't see Silver as anyone special and would've written a lot more names down that couldn't have all been erased from time only leaving Silver. Meaning, Silver shouldn't have seen fighting side-by-side with Sonic as new information if that was the case. But he did.
Rotor going to the Northern Tundra was a secret, but nothing else about the mission was. Everyone knew Silver was there and helped at the end of 216. Any description of any of Silver's trips would have mentioned more than just him and Sonic, so that doesn't mean anything, especially considering that parts of the journal are so torn up they don't even have full sentences.
"The Freedom Fighters vanish during this period." Again, that information can't come from the journal. So, your logic is: picture (newspaper), side-by-side (Journal), Vanish (newspaper) in one breath.
No, my logic is that those weren't all said in one breath. (just as examples) He says them as three separate pieces of information. The sentence about him fighting alongside Sonic and the one about the Freedom Fighters vanishing aren't even the same tense, they're, like I said, two separate thoughts. I've already put forth that Silver saying the Freedom Fighters vanished is possibly his own thought rather than something he read given the wording. (this seems to be the way the two readings take it)
Except, there is nothing in Antione's life he would have described as "the Freedom Fighters vanished."
There doesn't have to be given that it's entirely possible Silver didn't even read that. Even if he did, it definitely isn't a continuation of the information Silver reads about fighting alongside Sonic.
The comic does have a time travel story when someone in the future went back into the past and changed nothing in their future.
Jani-ca didn't change anything for a few reasons: she went back to stop a murder that didn't even happen, Dark Mobius' timeline isn't directly connected to Prime Mobius' the same way Silver's is, and she had "failed to change anything" in the same way as Silver up to that point. The future was still in ruin; things had changed, but in the grand scheme of things, they hadn't changed anything. Her frustrated tone makes that apparent.
It would theoretically be possible for someone's actions in the past to not significantly change the future if they were inconsequential enough. Jani-ca's very well could have been, but Silver's actions in 196 were also pretty irrelevant so it's hard to say despite her statement.
Foney, could you find the rules of where it says that he can't in Archie Sonic's lore? If you're using logic from other series, we can't use that.
The sentence immediately after what you put in quotes explains why he can't read about himself doing things in the past he hasn't done yet. If Silver already exists in issue 235 for him to read about, then he doesn't need to travel back there; he's already there. Silver being decoupled from time means there can't be a trip to the past he doesn't remember. This means him reading about fighting alongside Sonic can't be in reference to a trip he hasn't already taken, and he can't have already traveled to 235. I haven't used logic from other series, everything I've posted comes from either the comic or encyclopedia.
Yes, that doesn't prove Mecha Sally managed to killed Sonic. She was always meant to be stopped by Silver, no matter what.
I shouldn't even have to explain why this is wrong and makes no sense. So, Silver stopped Sally even in the versions of history where he wasn't there? The version of time travel you're proposing is single time-line (like in Harry Potter) and is not supported by the comic. Everything is not predetermined as evidenced by the timeline changing in reaction to actions Silver performs in the past,.
Here is the biggest thing: No matter what Silver did, nothing he did influenced the Genesis Wave/Super Genesis Wave from happening or not happening.
For one thing, this doesn't disprove anything I've said. Also, the reintroduction of the Genesis Wave was due to crossover/legal reasons (primarily the last page) there was no opportunity to properly integrate it until it happened. The Genesis Wave couldn't have happened in Silver's past as it rewrote all of history. Additionally, the effect Silver's actions have on the future are unpredictable. His actions in 216 resulted in the appearance of the Great Krudzu Spore, try explaining that one. Meaning, yes, Silver's actions did somehow cause the Genesis Wave (in universe anyway, in reality, it was entirely due to outside legal reasons and corporate meddling)
First, putting responses inside quotes is confusing. I meant 236. Sonic and Sally fight in Furville and it's witnessed by the public, ergo 236 not 234.
I don't understand why you brought up Sonic 06 when talking about Archie Silver.
I
If the words came from the journal, it would have to surround the events came before Antione went into a coma. Meaning, Silver, who's been meticulously analyzing the journal for information, Silver would have recognized the events surrounding himself he was already a part of even if some of the words were missing.
Silver being in the past can't be new information to him. He's desynced from time; he knows about all of his previous trips. If he's reading about his actions in 235-247, not only would he remember, but it would mean he's already performed said actions and wouldn't need to go back and do them. Since he hadn't gone back to 235 yet, Silver couldn't historically be there. The page Silver reads can only be referring to 194 and or 215 as those where the only times Silver existed in the past at that point; it is impossible for it to be referring to 247.
Antione's personal journal wouldn't record Rotor's secret adventure to the north so it would have to be with Scourge, right? But Antione didn't see Silver as anyone special and would've written a lot more names down that couldn't have all been erased from time only leaving Silver. Meaning, Silver shouldn't have seen fighting side-by-side with Sonic as new information if that was the case. But he did.
Rotor going to the Northern Tundra was a secret, but nothing else about the mission was. Everyone knew Silver was there and helped at the end of 216. Any description of any of Silver's trips would have mentioned more than just him and Sonic, so that doesn't mean anything, especially considering that parts of the journal are so torn up they don't even have full sentences.
"The Freedom Fighters vanish during this period." Again, that information can't come from the journal. So, your logic is: picture (newspaper), side-by-side (Journal), Vanish (newspaper) in one breath.
No, my logic is that those weren't all said in one breath. (just as examples) He says them as three separate pieces of information. The sentence about him fighting alongside Sonic and the one about the Freedom Fighters vanishing aren't even the same tense, they're, like I said, two separate thoughts. I've already put forth that Silver saying the Freedom Fighters vanished is possibly his own thought rather than something he read given the wording. (this seems to be the way the two readings take it)
Except, there is nothing in Antione's life he would have described as "the Freedom Fighters vanished."
There doesn't have to be given that it's entirely possible Silver didn't even read that. Even if he did, it definitely isn't a continuation of the information Silver reads about fighting alongside Sonic.
The comic does have a time travel story when someone in the future went back into the past and changed nothing in their future.
Jani-ca didn't change anything for a few reasons: she went back to stop a murder that didn't even happen, Dark Mobius' timeline isn't directly connected to Prime Mobius' the same way Silver's is, and she had "failed to change anything" in the same way as Silver up to that point. The future was still in ruin; things had changed, but in the grand scheme of things, they hadn't changed anything. Her frustrated tone makes that apparent.
It would theoretically be possible for someone's actions in the past to not significantly change the future if they were inconsequential enough. Jani-ca's very well could have been, but Silver's actions in 196 were also pretty irrelevant so it's hard to say despite her statement.
Foney, could you find the rules of where it says that he can't in Archie Sonic's lore? If you're using logic from other series, we can't use that.
The sentence immediately after what you put in quotes explains why he can't read about himself doing things in the past he hasn't done yet. If Silver already exists in issue 235 for him to read about, then he doesn't need to travel back there; he's already there. Silver being decoupled from time means there can't be a trip to the past he doesn't remember. This means him reading about fighting alongside Sonic can't be in reference to a trip he hasn't already taken, and he can't have already traveled to 235. I haven't used logic from other series, everything I've posted comes from either the comic or encyclopedia.
Yes, that doesn't prove Mecha Sally managed to killed Sonic. She was always meant to be stopped by Silver, no matter what.
I shouldn't even have to explain why this is wrong and makes no sense. So, Silver stopped Sally even in the versions of history where he wasn't there? The version of time travel you're proposing is single time-line (like in Harry Potter) and is not supported by the comic. Everything is not predetermined as evidenced by the timeline changing in reaction to actions Silver performs in the past,.
Here is the biggest thing: No matter what Silver did, nothing he did influenced the Genesis Wave/Super Genesis Wave from happening or not happening.
For one thing, this doesn't disprove anything I've said. Also, the reintroduction of the Genesis Wave was due to crossover/legal reasons (primarily the last page) there was no opportunity to properly integrate it until it happened. The Genesis Wave couldn't have happened in Silver's past as it rewrote all of history. Additionally, the effect Silver's actions have on the future are unpredictable. His actions in 216 resulted in the appearance of the Great Krudzu Spore, try explaining that one. Meaning, yes, Silver's actions did somehow cause the Genesis Wave (in universe anyway, in reality, it was entirely due to outside legal reasons and corporate meddling)
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