Archie Sonic's Immortality Discussion

[ElixirBlue]

The main CRT for the Archie Sonic Revisions are here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3917891

This is a Contact Revision Discussion on a particular ability Archie Sonic has, his Immortality. Since the main discussion is covering a lot, A lot, I thought it be easier if we can discuss them in pieces rather than jumping all over the place.

Immortality

Sonic is granted Type 8 immortality via his ring aura reviving him after being erased by the Ultimate Annihilator.

This, however, is not what actually happens, Snively replaced everyone's bio-data with Robotnik's meaning only Robotnik could be erased. The Annihilator overloaded due to Sonic and Robotnik's fight which caused Sonic and the rest of Mobius to blink out of existence for a moment. While Sonic was both at ground zero of the Annihilator overloading and in close proximity to Robotnik he still wasn't in danger. The Annihilator was coded specifically for Robotnik's bio-data, Sonic being close to and or touching him would not result in him being erased with Robotnik since his bio-data would still be different. Sonic was confirmed to have popped out of existence and returned alongside Mobius, no ring aura involved, he came back the same as everyone else. Him coming back progressively can't be contrasted with anyone else as we only see Sonic return and since we are told he came back the same as them, the only assumption that can be made is they came back the same. A ring being on scree is not sufficient evidence to say the ring aura is responsible for his return when we don't see anyone else's return to compare it too and we are told both in the story in encyclopedia that he returned the same as everyone else.

Sonic's ring aura required extra power in order to unroboticize him in the Mecha Madness Special making it is unreasonable to assume the aura could return him from a state of nonexistence entirely on its own without extra power when it was unable to perform a lesser feat previously.

Furthermore, Sonic is confirmed to have died twice. He is killed through unknown means by Mephelis, requiring the Chaos Emeralds to revive him and is permanently killed by Mecha Sally in Silver's past, which is confirmed to be the Prime Zone timeline. So even if one pretends Sonic had type 8 immortality in issue 50, it was only a one-time thing and is no longer applicable.

Sonic is also listed as having Type 3 immortality, however, there doesn't seem to be any justification for this and there are no examples of him displaying any sort of advanced healing to my knowledge. If it's based on the ring aura preserving his life force, it still doesn't qualify for type 3, the deroboticization process also healed Knuckles' wounds and the aura was unable to alter Sonic at all on its own.

Sonic's immortality should be removed.

 

[ElixirBlue]

The types of immortality the discussions are going to cover is type 3 and type 8.

"Type 3: Immortality via Regenerationn: Characters with this type of immortality can simply regenerate from wounds that would normally be lethal, though its effectiveness depends on the degree of the Regenerationn."

"Type 8: Reliant Immortality: The character cannot die as long as a certain being, object, or even concept exists."

 

[ElixirBlue]

To start with, Let's have a conversation about Type 3 first, as Type 8 is a bit more complicated.

 

[ElixirBlue]

... is permanently killed by Mecha Sally in Silver's past, which is confirmed to be the Prime Zone timeline.

First, I'm debunking the fact that Prime Sonic of the Prime timeline ever died in the series.

The 1st instant I'm debunking is Silver's Future, which after saving Rotor's Walrus Herd, became Prime Sonic's Prime Timeline.

Firstly, Sally saying "almost murdered" doesn't mean Sonic was actually about to die. It means she could've but it was ultimately unable to and was prevented by Silver.



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Sally's statement alone doesn't prove Sonic died.

Secondly, to further prove Sonic didn't die during this event in Silver's Future, Silver takes out a newspaper stating he will be fighting the traitor to the Freedom Fighters side-by-side with Sonic and mentions the Freedom Fighters vanishing during the event, foreshadowing the Genesis Wave.

Everything that was in the newspaper played out like it described. The Freedom Fighters vanishing meant they disappeared from Pre-Genesis Wave World to Post-Genesis Wave World and the Pre-Genesis Wave World wondered what happened to them for Silver's Future to still exist after the Genesis Wave (not SGW).

 

[Foneybone1]

Yes, Sally was going to kill Sonic, he was saved by Silver, but Silver wasn't there to save him in the previous timeline, so he died, that's the entire point of his story. The diary can't be refering to the Genesis Wave because they don't go to another zone or anything the zone itself is changed, they're all still there, but reality was altered.

Wait, I just realized this is pointless, Mephelis kills Sonic. Sally killing him isn't necessary to prove he can be killed.

Here's the rub, the encyclopedia tells us Sonic wasn't killed by the annihilator, and that he is later killed by Mephelis. With this in mind, what proof is there that Sonic has type 8 immortality?

 

[ElixirBlue]

I haven't got to Mephiles yet, for I will go into debunking that.

For now, what are your opinions of the Newspaper detailing the events From the future? Stating that Silver was fighting side-by-side with Sonic and the vanishing.

The implications are that the future wasn't changed by Silver's actions.

 

[Foneybone1]

You're going to somehow debunk the words "the death of Sonic"? sure

Silver had fought alongside the FF prior to his last trip to the past, and the phrase vanashing does not necessitate anything beyond Antoine not seeing them again. You're implying the Genesis Wave sent them to another zone rather than altering it. How would the journal be able to document the SGW?

Silver is displaced in time, literally every action he takes changes the future.

But back to the actual point, what proof is there that Sonic has type 8 immortality? That has to be answered before anything else.

 

[Genericstickman]

Does anyone in universe even know about Sonic's immortality, I'm pretty sure Sonic doesn't even know about it

 

[ElixirBlue]

> "but the way the story is presented it's implied he dies in them"

No? Destroys the Freedom Fighter, the end of the Freedom, doesn't mean death. If you actually paid attention the story, Silver is wrong a lot. A lot. All his predictions are misunderstandings. However, not in a death way, the Freedom Fighter did end, With Sonic confirming that.

 

[ElixirBlue]

But back to the actual point, what proof is there that Sonic has type 8 immortality? That has to be answered before anything else.

I will but not yet. I debunk one thing at a time. You don't get to pick and choose the order I debunk or prove things.

And I am in the middle of proving Sonic has type 8 immortality, by first proving he never died in the series.

 

[Theuser789]

From a certain point of view Sonic wasn't even perma dead, with Elise sensing him and whatever, don't get focused on one little thing thinking that it can't be anything except that thing

 

[ElixirBlue]

You're going to somehow debunk the words "the death of Sonic"? sure

What words? From where? Context?

Silver had fought alongside the FF prior to his last trip to the past, and the phrase vanashing does not necessitate anything beyond Antoine not seeing them again. You're implying the Genesis Wave sent them to another zone rather than altering it. How would the journal be able to document the SGW?

... Do you have selective hearing? The information came from a newspaper from an unknown author, not Antoine in a Coma.

The newspaper said "Freedom Fighter vanishes" not "Reality was rewritten." The genesis wave is the only thing that the newspaper can be referring to.

Silver is displaced in time, literally every action he takes changes the future.

That would be true if his actions took a different route than what was described in the newspaper. Instead, Silver was following the path the newspaper described.

 

[Foneybone1]

At risk of coming across as dismissing criticism, this is the same problem we had with the fate hax discussion. Before trying to discredit Sonic's deaths, there needs to be a reason to believe Sonic has type 8 immortality, what is it?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Immortality (Types 3 and 8. The latter is reliant on Sonic's One Billionth Power Ring Aura, which allowed him to recover from being erased from existence by the Ultimate Annihilator after it overloaded. Was stated and show to be successfully vaporized, but was left in a sort of limbo before being able to retur once more. His Aura also retains his life force)

This is what is on his wiki.

 

[Foneybone1]

Ok, so the encyclopedia says Sonic wasn't annihilated. How then, can this be considered type 8 immortality?

 

[ElixirBlue]

1. The encyclopedia was created by writers who didn't write the original story.

2. They emphasize Robotnik was annihilated because he was permanently erased from existence and was obliterated for good.

3. The encyclopedia doesn't state Sonic wasn't erased from existence. All it said was "Sonic and Mobius, meanwhile, blipped out of existence for an instant before returning."

Leaving the necessity of Sonic coming out of his ring up to interpretation, becaise shortly after Sonic got him out of his ring, Locke states the rest of Mobius got erased as well, Only for a second. Why the Sonic in particular needed his ring to save himself is the question needing an answer.


_____________________________________________

The encyclopedia doesn't mention Sonic coming out of his ring because up to that point, the writers forgot the one billionth ring was still on Sonic.

In the end, they inadvertently added powers and abilities to the one billionth ring by giving Sonic abilities and not explaining where they came from.

 

[Foneybone1]

1. That's irrelevant.

2. Robotnik is said to have been annihilated because that's what the annihilator does. It's a way of saying it killed him the way Snively intended.

3. It groups Sonic and Mobius' blipping out of existance together. It excludes them from being annihilated, meaning the annihilator didn't kill Sonic like it did Robotnik, confirming what Dr. Quack said, that Sonic wasn't in danger. We also have no reason to assume Sonic returned by different means than the rest of Mobius as it also groups their return together.

Sonic coming out of a ring is left up to interpritation, but only when considering issue 50 by itself. With the encyclopedia we don't have to interprite it. It groups Sonic's return with Mobius' impling everyone else came back the same way. We don't see anyone else come back, so we can't say they didn't also come back through a ring.

Sonic being unaffected by Finitevus' hex implies Ian had not forgotten about the billionth ring, but more importantly, we can't say Ian just forgot and that's why he doesn't mention it. Part of his job was to organize these things after all. We also can't ignore the encyclopedia's explanation because Ian maybe possibly forgot about the billionth ring, which was never confirmed to have been the cause of what we see in issue 50 anyway. The ring we see being the billionth ring is conjecture, and Sonic coming back via different means can't be extrapolated from the encyclopedia's explanation.

 

[ElixirBlue]

> We also have no reason to assume Sonic returned by different means than the rest of Mobius as it also groups their return together.


_______________________________

Fact: Sonic is the only one stated to be protected by ring energy, just 10 issues prior. Nobody knows Sonic came out of the ring other than the reader, so any opinion like from Dr. Quack or Locke, who has the quote the Encyclopedia uses, aren't valid sources of information.

 

[Foneybone1]

I know only Sonic has the ring aura, but the ring we see isn't confirmed to be his billionth ring, that's an assumption on the part of the reader. In that same story from 10 issues prior, the ring aura can't even unroboticize Sonic without assistance, and now we're expected to believe that it can bring Sonic back from a state of non-existence, not only with no real evidence but also with evidence to the contrary.

What reason are we given to believe Dr. Quack and Locke are wrong? Them not knowing Sonic is protected by rings isn't proof they're wrong, it makes it possible that they are, but unless we are given reason to doubt them, we can only assume that what we're told through them is correct. Their statements are reaffirmed by the encyclopedia, meaning they are indeed reliable. If they are unreliable, why would a guidebook, the purpose of which is to be correct, posit their incorrect information as fact?

 

[ElixirBlue]

The encyclopedia use their statements, not support the statements. There is a difference.

The encyclopedia itself never supports or denies the existence of the 1,000,000,00Oth Ring, so any information you can use against or for the one billionth ring will not be found in encyclopedia but only within the pages of the story.

The encyclopedia repeats exactly what Locke in the story says, revealing no new information. Meaning the encyclopedia doesn't add any new context to the situation.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Mentioning Sonic blipped out of existence along with Mobius supports the fact that Sonic got erased from existence. However, the encyclopedia doesn't mention their situation was exactly the same, just mentioning that they were both erased from existence before returning from Non Existence.

While we can see from the story, Sonic came out of a ring and we see at 10 issues prior that Sonic is the only one protected by Ring Aura.

The same Ring Aura that saved Sonic from being vaporized to death.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I'm also posting these two posts from another thread to explain how Sonic would still have been erased from existence that the U.A. was hitting at Robotnik directly despite his bio data not being targeted.

snip

 

[ElixirBlue]

I know only Sonic has the ring aura, but the ring we see isn't confirmed to be his billionth ring,

This isn't evidence but since you would like relying on the narrative or, the author's intention, Look at this line describing the timeframe of everything being erased out of existence, written by Ken Penders who was involved with the one billionth ring and was the author who wrote that panel of Sonic escaping from white space out of a ring.

 

[Foneybone1]

The point of the encyclopedia is to tell us the facts. What part of the encyclopedia makes you think it's just regurgitating quotes instead of telling us what actually happened? It's not even quoting Dr. Quack and Locke; it's literally reaffirming their statements as true. If they're wrong why aren't we ever told that, and why would the encyclopedia promote what's said in the comic as if it's true if it's not?

It also does give us new information. It confirms Sonic went and returned with Mobius via the same means by grouping their departure and return together. It also separates them from Robotnik's annihilation, clarifying that Sonic wasn't annihilated. It invalidates the interpretation that Sonic's billionth ring brought him back from annihilation.

There is zero evidence to assume the ring aura saved Sonic in Sonic Live. That is 100% basless cojecture. We are told in the comic that an electrical storm was causing people to teleport between dimentions. I can't believe I've had to say this three times, but that statement that Sonic was vaporized is from the Sonic News Network, it's not legitimate.

Robotnik's clothes possibly being erased isn't proof Sonic was too. It opens up the possibility at best, but it's not proof because one does not necessitate the other, it's a complete non sequitur. The encyclopedia saying he wasn't erased, however, is proof that he wasn't.

I know you said it's not evidence, but them being gone for a billionth of a second doesn't in any way mean the ring we see is Sonic's billionth, that's also a non sequitur. Also, Mike Gallagher wrote 35 and Mecha Madness, Penders is only involved in that he was the head Sonic writer. That doesn't give him any more of an authority on it than Ian.

 

[ElixirBlue]

> Penders is only involved in that he was the head Sonic writer. That doesn't give him any more of an authority on it than Ian.

Before we move on, What do you believe the job of "Head writer," entails?

I will agree and disagree on your points but I need to get the subject of the Encyclopedia out of the way, due to its Meta nature.

 

[Foneybone1]

My point is Ian and Penders were both head writer; you can't dismiss the encyclopedia due to it not being written by the original writers when it's compiled and written by Ian and then say Pender's writing is more legitimate when it comes to the ring aura when he also wasn't the original writer.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I'm not saying one has more legitimately than the other.

I'm saying Ian Flynn didn't add anything new in our understanding of the existence erasure in the Encyclopedia.

In fact, the information in the Encyclopedia is lacking compared to what was described in the story.

 

[Foneybone1]

Then why mention the encyclopedia wasn't written by the original writers and then talk up Penders being an original writer as if it makes "a billionth of a second" relevant?

The encyclopedia doesn't have to add anything, it just has to tell us what happened in the story, and what it tells us confirms what was said by the characters in the comic not a conclusion the reader can only come too when ignoring those characters.

Like I said before though, it does add clarification by having Sonic blip and return with Mobius. The opposite of what the interpretation that gives Sonic immortality says.

Something I want to make sure I understand, do you believe all of Mobius was annihilated with Robotnik or just Sonic was annihilated with him? If it's the former, how did Mobius come back and why is it defferent than the way Sonic did? If it's the later, why would the comic tell us otherwise?

 

[ElixirBlue]

> Sonic blip and return with Mobius.

That is not what the encyclopedia said. Don't put words in its mouth. There is no statement in the comic or the encyclopedia saying that Sonic returned with Mobius. There is also no statement in the comic or the encyclopedia mentioning the fact that Sonic came out of a Ring.

> do you believe all of Mobius was annihilated with Robotnik or just Sonic was annihilated with him? If it's the later, why would the comic tell us otherwise?

The comic doesn't tell us otherwise. It doesn't say anything about Sonic himself. Dr. Quack's Statements were just to prove why he didn't do anything to stop the Ultimate Annihilator to save Knothole.

No one in the comic mentions or talks about Sonic's final fight with Robotnik, other than saying that Sonic the Hedgehog was the only one at Ground Zero of Existence erasure.

 

[ElixirBlue]

The encyclopedia quote is:
"Sonic and Mobius, meanwhile, only blipped out of existence for an instant before returning."
The quote proves Sonic was erased from existence, and stated both Sonic and Mobius came back from non-existence, which is clearly shown in the story.

But the quote doesn't mention Sonic and Mobius returning together.

I mentioned the authors because clearly a couple of authors gave out more information about Sonic's existence erasure through art than the one who wrote a short summary revealing nothing new.

 

[Theuser789]

The quote even separates both

 

[Foneybone1]

Reiterating what the encyclopedia says isn't putting words in its mouth. It says "Sonic and Mobius [return]" there is no distinction between what happens to them, the only assumption that can be made is they returned the same way. You're putting "words" in the comic's mouth by inserting an unfounded theory into the narrative. Sonic coming out of a ring is a fact, but it still isn't proof that the ring aura brought Sonic back, that's an assumption.

Except we are told otherwise, Dr. Quack says, "only Robotnik could be affected", and we don't have reason to doubt him. Super Special 6 implies the Annihilator overloading is what caused the unpredictable results we see, and the encyclopedia confirms both of these, only Robotnik was annihilated and the omega wave is what caused the other occurrences.

It doesn't say "they came back together" but it gives us no reason to assume they didn't by saying "Sonic and Mobius [return]". If Sonic and Mobius did return different ways, why wouldn't it clarify that?


How on earth is grouping them with an "and" seperating them? Using "and" is how you group things.

 

[Theuser789]

Because the quote puts Sonic and Mobius as two diferent things, which isn't fone with the other frendom fighters Redditor

 

[Foneybone1]

What? The action of "blipping out of existence for an instant" is performed by Sonic and Mobius, there's no separation between what happens to them, that's why it says "Sonic and Mobius blipped". The only separation made is between what happened to Robotnik and Sonic (and by extension, Mobius, you know, because they're grouped together) by saying Robotnik was annihilated while Sonic only blipped. It's a way of saying Sonic wasn't annihilated like Robotnik without literally saying "Sonic wasn't annihilated like Robotnik" If there is a difference in what happened to Sonic and Mobius, why would the encyclopedia both not imply that and also word it in such a way that would lead someone to the opposite conclusion? Why would it say something happened to "Sonic and Mobius" if it didn't actually happen to both of them?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Sonic wasn't annihilate like Robotnik because of his immortality type 8.

I'm in the middle of making a big response.

 

[Foneybone1]

Wait, so you're saying he wasn't annihilated at all, but he still blipped out of existence just like Mobius did, but apparently not for the same reason, because you said so I guess, and then was brought back because of his ring aura, with Mobius just conveniently also coming back on its own, and you got all of that, just from a ring being on panel? and I'm the one putting words in the comic's mouth?

Unless I just misunderstood and you are saying Sonic and Mobius blipped for the same reason (see how me using "and" grouped them like that) but if they did blip for the same reason, why does Sonic need the ring aura to return when the rest of Mobius doesn't?

 

[ElixirBlue]

> Unless I just misunderstood and you are saying Sonic and Mobius blipped for the same reason

" you are saying Sonic and Mobius blipped for the same reason"

Woooooooooooooooowwwwwww. I never said that. That is a shady debate move on your part.

I said "like Robotnik." He was erased with Robotnik but he wasn't annihilated for good like Robotnik.

When I pointed out when you were interpreting the word "return" to mean a connection (as in, Interpreting the quote to mean they were erased and brought back with the same method), I correctly corrected you on that.

 

[Foneybone1]

"Shady" is removing the context of what I said. It's not shady to try to figure out what you're saying by asking questions. The admitted aggressiveness of the questions doesn't change their intent.

I also didn't interpret "return" to mean a connection between Sonic and Mobius' experience, I said "and" connected them (because it does) It says "Sonic and Mobius" do something, that something being "blipping and returning" I put "return" in brackets because that's what you do when you change the tense of a word in a quote. (in retrospect, I don't think this is what you were referring to but I'm keeping it in the case that it was)

With your clarification though, I feel like we're almost on the same page here, but diverging on interpreting the visuals or taking the comic at its word.

The Omega Wave was the Annihilator's effect erasing everyone, but everyone, excluding Robotnik, came back almost immediately due to the fact that, just like we are told, only Robotnik could be destroyed. But if only Robotnik could be destroyed why was everyone erased by the Omega Wave to being with? Because the Annihilator overloaded, but again, since only Robotnik could truly be killed, everyone, including Sonic, came back.

The thing is, Sonic coming out of a ring isn't enough evidence to definitively say Sonic would have stayed annihilated without the ring aura. If we're given an explanation for how Sonic came back that doesn't require the ring aura, just like Sonic Live, we can't just add it into the narrative. There's no reason for Sonic to need the ring aura to come back if the rest of Mobius didn't.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Honestly, this debate has made me see a lot of things in the bigger picture. I am grateful for this back-and-forth. It's clear there's no answer of fact for both sides of whether Sonic has resistance to EE or not.

There is most likely and most likely not.

So I've made a blog explaining all my thoughts that Sonic most likely has resistance to EE. I'm just adding links to panels and looking over for grammar.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Let me know when you want to see it so I can post it all here.