- 315
- 56
On this, the anniversary of the last time I tried to bring most of these errors to light, I bring you this very very long thread. Seriously, sorry it's so long.
Topics:
Chaos Emeralds
Equipment
Abilities/resistances
Immortality
Low 2C
Ultra Sonic
Fate hax
Chaos Force
Miscellaneous
Chaos Emeralds
The Chaos Emeralds are listed as being tens of thousands of times stronger after the great harmony due to Feist fusing all the emeralds in the universe into only seven.
While it is true that adding emeralds together increases their power, the method Feist used to fuse the emeralds is unknown and is not guaranteed to have resulted in increasing their power the way it presumably should have. In fact, we know Feist altered the emeralds in some way when fusing them since the different colored gems lost their secondary abilities i.e. the red emeralds manifesting a super form as a separate entity. The Master Emerald was formed by reversing Mogul's absorption ability, resulting in the emeralds absorbing him and his power, it is highly unlikely that this was the method Feist used.
On top of there being absolutely no statements post-harmony that go so far as to even imply that the emeralds are more powerful than before, we are even shown multiple times they are the same: Devices designed to be used with pre-harmony emeralds operate with no issues using post-harmony emeralds, all seven are still required to activate a super form, the Master Emerald, which is only 14 emeralds, is still more powerful than all seven post-harmony emeralds.
Furthermore, Ian Flynn has more than once flat out said that the emeralds' power is the same before and after the great harmony in response to this issue. While his reasoning that "infinity+infinity=infinity" could be seen as dubious as it seems to imply things such as one Chaos Emerald being the same strength as seven, despite this not being the case before or after the harmony, his word usage in his second answer actually seems to be a reflection of Mogul's dialogue about adding infinite power to his own infinite power. Regardless, his direct statements on the matter is reflected in his writing and as such cannot be ignored.
Given that the emeralds are the same power wise post harmony, this isn't really relevant until later, but the ocean of emeralds seen in issue 35 was not part of the great harmony. Sonic is taken to a different zone by the Ancient Walkers and Adam says the spire gathered the emeralds only from their universe, this would exclude pocket dimensions connected to the prime universe. This is evident by them sending the emeralds to the Zone of Silence, which is "not another dimension entirely". If the spire was able to retrieve the emeralds from the zone in 35 it would have been able to retrieve them from the ZoS, but it can't.
Equipment
Power Rings and Chaos Emeralds should not be standard equipment. When in need of either he always has to retrieve them himself or is given them by others; he does not keep any on his perso unless he knows he needs them. He has never been in possession of a Chaos Emerald for an extended period of time, let alone all seven, when it comes to the post harmony emeralds he's never had one for even so long as a full issue (this may very well be the case for the pre harmony emeralds as well, but I am unable to thoroughly check)
Sonic's proficiency with the Sword of Light and Sword of Acorns is greatly exaggerated. He has only used each sword a single time (224 and SSS4 respectively) and with the Sword of Light was outmatched by Naugus whom the sword directly counters. The only ability he displayed while using the Sword of Acorns was its passive power Nullification but only to negate mind control, he was unable to heal Max of his crystallization whereas Max could. There's no evidence Sonic could replicate feats performed by members of the House of Acorn or characters learned in magic such as Mogul.
Sonic uses a power ring to BFR Naugus in Sonic Super Special 15, and it's revealed Nate power nulled him via removing his rings.
However, Sonic Super Special 15 is retconned by Free Comic Book Day 2011 (issue 5) In this issue we see Morgan didn't truly power null Naugus (at least not fully) as he was still powered by thousands of rings, and the rings in the ruins of Nate's castle are leftover from issue 66. Additionally, instead of using a single ring to BFR Naugus, Sonic transforms into Ultra Sonic in order to defeat him.
To substantiate FCBD5 is a retcon of SSS15, it tells virtually the same story as SSS15 with dialogue in both that places their events between issues 71 and 72 leaving no room for both stories. Furthermore, Sonic uses all the rings left in Nate Morgan's castle in FCBD5 and Naugus isn't depowered before the comic's events making it virtually impossible for SSS15 to have taken place before of afterward.
Dialogue implies the ring Nate used was possibly enhanced, similar to the Ring of Acorns. This makes sense as it exists as his last means of defense, but even if it wasn't, knocking back Naugus while he was off guard is consistent, even when he's powered up.
The power ring's power null and BFR abilities should be removed.
The Sword of Acorns causes the death of the Ancient Walkers, but only in a technical sense. The sword was not used against them, only to open a portal to the Zone of Silence, this created a dimensional rift which is what killed the walkers. When referring to their deaths only the rift is mentioned, it was not the sword's power that kills them; they were effectively hit by a shockwave. It's also worth noting the Walkers were dying and very weak when the dimensional wave kills them. The Sword's ability to possess its user is also likely exclusive to Sally as she is its vessel and we are only shown it possessing and speaking to her; it doesn't possess Mogul in 164 even when its destruction was imminent.
Abilities/resistances
Sonic has mind hax resistance by resisting Master Mogul and Enerjak's mind hax.
However, neither of these things actually happened. Mogul does state he plans to take control of Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles but never actually attempts to when they return and as such, there is no resistance feat. Conversely, Turbo Tails, who is stronger than Super Sonic, was able to have a mind control mark placed on him by a weaker Mogul. Enerjak similarly never attempts to hax Sonic, he only resists Finitivus' hex. Said hex took control of Knuckles and is what allowed Enerjak to take over, Enerjak is not inherently part of the hex.
As for Finitivus' hex, it took control of base Knuckles and nothing more. The moment he attempted to use the Master Emerald's power, he was under Finitivus' control, making it unreasonable for him to have transformed into Chaos Knuckles. Finitivus stating Knuckles had "had this power before" is also not proof he was Chaos Knuckles as Enerjak and Chaos Knuckles' powers are not only similar but have been compared before. Knuckles using the Master Emerald's power also does not necessitate he become Chaos Knuckles as he only becomes Hyper Knuckles when doing so in issue 141. If the hex were able to affect Chaos Knuckles it would have been able to affect Sonic since Cal, who is weaker than Chaos Knuckles, was able to mind hax Sonic in issue 59. Additionally, Ian Flynn has confirmed Knuckles only transformed into Enerjak.
Sonic is unable to resist Cal's matter manipulation in issue 59 as well.
Sonic's ring aura does not negate power nullification. He is afflicted with speed Reduction is issue 38, requiring multiple rings to reverse. Scourge is able to use the emerald without Finitevus' knowing in issue 183, implying Locke alone was blocked from the emerald rather than everyone. Additionally, Finitivus allows Sonic to use the emerald in 183 to expedite his plan, and his curiosity is in how he remained unaffected by the hex rather than how he accessed the Master Emerald's power.
Mogul's sixth sense is an ability he claims he gained along with his Master form, so his base form should not have it. Additionally, he describes his sense as a type of homing beacon that points him to sources of power, not any sort of precognition, he didn't know Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles would retur and was unaware of how until Athair shows up.
Base Sonic's resistances (power nullification, matter manipulation, soul absorption, etc.) shouldn't be scaled to Enerjak since he never attempted to use said abilities against Sonic.
Can someone provide Sonic's feats for magic resistance, because it seems exaggerated from what I've seen?
Immortality
Sonic is granted Type 8 immortality via his ring aura reviving him after being erased by the Ultimate Annihilator.
This, however, is not what actually happens, Snively replaced everyone's bio-data with Robotnik's meaning only Robotnik could be erased. The Annihilator overloaded due to Sonic and Robotnik's fight which caused Sonic and the rest of Mobius to blink out of existence for a moment. While Sonic was both at ground zero of the Annihilator overloading and in close proximity to Robotnik he still wasn't in danger. The Annihilator was coded specifically for Robotnik's bio-data, Sonic being close to and or touching him would not result in him being erased with Robotnik since his bio-data would still be different. Sonic was confirmed to have popped out of existence and returned alongside Mobius, no ring aura involved, he came back the same as everyone else. Him coming back progressively can't be contrasted with anyone else as we only see Sonic return and since we are told he came back the same as them, the only assumption that can be made is they came back the same. A ring being on scree is not sufficient evidence to say the ring aura is responsible for his return when we don't see anyone else's return to compare it too and we are told both in the story in encyclopedia that he returned the same as everyone else.
Sonic's ring aura required extra power in order to unroboticize him in the Mecha Madness Special making it is unreasonable to assume the aura could return him from a state of nonexistence entirely on its own without extra power when it was unable to perform a lesser feat previously.
Furthermore, Sonic is confirmed to have died twice. He is killed through unknown means by Mephelis, requiring the Chaos Emeralds to revive him and is permanently killed by Mecha Sally in Silver's past, which is confirmed to be the Prime Zone timeline. So even if one pretends Sonic had type 8 immortality in issue 50, it was only a one-time thing and is no longer applicable.
Sonic is also listed as having Type 3 immortality, however, there doesn't seem to be any justification for this and there are no examples of him displaying any sort of advanced healing to my knowledge. If it's based on the ring aura preserving his life force, it still doesn't qualify for type 3, the deroboticization process also healed Knuckles' wounds and the aura was unable to alter Sonic at all on its own.
Sonic's immortality should be removed.
Low 2C/2C
Sonic and a couple of others have various feats that put them and by extension the majority of the cast at low 2C, however, none of these feats are legitimate.
Numerous higher tier characters have been staggered, knocked back, or inconvenienced when take off guard despite being massively beyond the characters attacking them. Omega attacking Feist is not a true low 2C feat. In fact, in the very next panel, we see Omega's attack does not truly harm Fiest, and he states later the attack was "only a small megato" a far cry from the low 2C feat it is touted as.
Sonic does not tank a blast from Feist, this took place in King Max's mind.
Shadow disrupting the Skull Egg Zone is irrelevant as the zone is unstable.
Sonic and Tails tanking a blast from Al and Cal in issue 59 is only half true, they don't tank a direct attack, they are badly hurt by an explosio caused by one of their attacks and don't fully recover until Al and Cal reshape them. Even if they did tank a direct attack, this in no way scales AP, it's entirely a defense feat.
Scourge's inner monologue in Universe 32 is an unreliable source to scale him above Al and Cal. I context, Scourge's statement is referring to the people he's fighting, which would exclude Al and Cal. Beyond that, given that he is on a revenge-fueled power high, the majority of his opponents have restraining collars, and he lists his accomplishments to boost his ego, his statement is little more than unfounded chest pounding. Furthermore, his statement is completely baseless in comparing him to Al and Cal; Scourge has no real frame of reference for how strong they are outside of them destroying a few walls. It's implied that Al and Cal's power is only absolute while in their own zone, meaning even if Scourge's statement does include them and is correct, there's no way to quantify how strong they are when he makes his statement. Without substantial supporting evidence, his statement cannot be taken at face value.
Sonic has been shown fighting the likes of Naugus and Mogul in base form. However, both events are removed from context.
Sonic is shown in issue 223 to be unable to do anything to Naugus (except when catching him off guard) who hardly pays him any attentio. He is only able to fight him is 224 because he has the Sword of Light which counters Naugus' magic to the point that merely touching it causes him pain. Even with the sword, however, Naugus bests both Sonic and Elias, the latter of which states Naugus is too powerful. Even when Naugus didn't have a Chaos Emerald, Sonic has never truly bee a match for him. He has never matched him in combat, needing to resort to using rings in FCBD5. Sonic's speed is the only thing that lets him fight Naugus at all, but he is shown to not be a true equal in terms of power.
Similarly, Sonic is no match for Mogul. Sonic does defeat Mogul in issue 114, however, this event is inconsistent and should not be used. In 163, using a similar attack to one Sonic tanks in 114, Mogul knocks out not only Sonic but also eight others with ease right after Sonic implies he's weaker than before. Mogul similarly proves to be far too much for Sonic along with the rest of the Freedom Fighters and Chaotix in Sonic Super Special 1, with Mogul himself stating he is not at full strength. These are the only times an unenhanced Mogul has battled Sonic, therefore, issue 114 creates an inconsistency. It is, however, within Mogul's character to fake a defeat to further a grander plan as shown in SSS1 and Mecha Madness, considering Mogul leaves his fight with Sonic to prepare his trap for Chaos Knuckles, it's very clear his defeat in 114 was a farce.
Furthermore, Mogul is Naugus' superior, if Sonic can't even match Naugus, then logically he cannot match Mogul, further substantiating that the instance in 114 is dubious.
Naugus did not create the Zone of Silence, he is stated to have merely discovered it. There are statements of him creating it, however, these could be explained as him crafting it after its discovery, with the encyclopedia saying just that, retconning statements claiming he made it. He has only shown universal power while in the Zone of Silence, which greatly enhances his powers. His ability to manipulate the zone from the outside also does not truly show universal manipulation as, even while enhanced, he is unable to affect anything outside the zone while inside and is unable to leave the zone without outside assistance in issue 53. Even before his manipulation began the zone's natural properties enhancing his power is the reason he's able to manipulate it or else he would have no need for the zone after escaping and could create an environment that impowered him anywhere.
Ultra Sonic
Ultra Sonic is implied to be a superior form to Super Sonic in issue 71 by Sonic first going super then ultra. However, when taking issue 83 and Ultra Sonic's other appearances into account, this doesn't appear to be the case. In 71 Sonic goes ultra with only one Super Emerald, but when using seven Super Emeralds in 83 he only goes super, coupled with the other inconsistencies and plot holes created by the Super Emeralds (explained here and here) this is an unreliable method to scale Ultra Sonic.
The Complete Encyclopedia implies forms achieved with power rings are more of an alternative super form to ones achieved with Chaos Emeralds rather than enhanced ones. Sonic saying, he has less finesse as Ultra Sonic further implies the form uses a different power set than Super Sonic. This is supported by the encyclopedia describing ring transformations as having elemental powers, comparing them to Ixis magics. This is consistent with Ultra Sonic's showings of atomically manipulating the elements along with adapting to various environments.
Ultra Sonic should be listed as an alternative super form with a separate power set instead of a more powerful one.
Fate hax
Sonic is granted rather potent fate hax based on these statements from Mammoth Mogul and Eggma.
Taking the rest of the comic into account, however, neither hold up to scrutiny.
Mogul's statement is technically correct in that fate altered to cause his defeat, but he is incorrect in assuming Sonic has anything to do with it. It is explained numerous times that Mogul's past defeats where the result of a curse the Ancient Walkers placed on the Chaos Emerald in his chest. Every single statement about his defeat that does not come from him states his curse is why he failed. It's unreasonable to expect Mogul to place the blame for his failure on a curse he did not know he had. While it is also correct that Mogul was no longer cursed when he makes this statement, he would obviously be unaware of this as well. Ian Flynn has confirmed that this is the case. Mogul's statement is illegitimate and can't be used as evidence.
Eggman's statement seems more legitimate at face value, but upon further investigation, it falls apart just as fast.
Eggman's actions following his defeat in issue 200 make it very clear that this idea that Sonic is patently unpredictable and will always win is merely a mental crutch he uses to regain and maintain his sanity. We literally see this in action in issue 230 when Eggman begins to go mad again before calming himself down with the idea of Sonic's "constant chaos". Data files also say he "reasons" himself back to sanity when coming up with this idea and Ian Flynn has said Eggman is still not mentally stable, removing much credibility from his theory.
He concocts an excuse for why Sonic is the sole reason for his failure, despite him being unable to conquer Knothole in the entire year Sonic was in space. His hubris obviously goes beyond Sonic, but in his insanity, he convinces himself of the idea of Sonic's "chaos factor". His plan in the Genesis arc was to reset the world to a state where he is able to roboticize Mobius, and in the event that that plan is thwarted all machinery on the planet will be destroyed. Additionally, his plan involved rebooting Sonic himself so that he would no longer have his "chaos factor". After he achieves victory in roboticizing Sally he no longer requires this mental crutch to stay sane, to explain away his failure. He no longer factors in Sonic's "chaos factor" when devising new plans, he never even mentions it again after 231, after he's achieved the victory he needed. The blame for all future setbacks and losses are no longer placed on this faulty theory; when Sonic thwarts an attack on Furville in issue 236 and on the Wolf Pack and Felidae in issue 238 Eggman doesn't blame cosmic interference, he has truly regained his sanity and no longer needs this mental crutch.
This is further substantiated by his actions throughout Worlds Collide.
While collaborating with Dr Wily, he never mentions how Sonic undid his last Genesis Wave, he never mentions how Sonic could be a problem at all, he has complete confidence in their victory, because he no longer believes in Sonic's "chaos factor" because he no longer needs to. Eggman is so reassured of his inevitable victory after teaming up with Wily that he goes so far as to say Megaman could defeat Sonicduring their fight in issue 248, this is a ridiculous thing for Eggman to say if he truly believes in Sonic's "chaos factor". Even when he becomes worried Sonic and Megaman will stop them, Eggman doesn't attribute this is any kind of fate hax, being easily reassured by Wily. At one point he even becomes worried Dr Light will be the one to thwart his plan rather than Sonic. After the SGW is undone, Eggman still doesn't blame Sonic's fate hax, and still doesn't give it as the reason for his and Wily's defeat when recounting Worlds Collide's events in World's Unite. Eggman himself has no real faith in the idea of Sonic's fate hax.
Even if Eggman's own lack of belief in this idea wasn't enough, his actual theory itself does not hold up to scrutiny.
His theory postulates that the more chaos energy someone has the greater their fate hax will be. This is made clear when he says in issue 210 that Sonic's "constant inconsistency" comes from him absorbing more Chaos Energy than anyone else and in issue 231 when he states his belief that having a Chaos Emerald put the "chaos factor" in his favor. This, however, is patently untrue. Numerous characters have been defeated and or even died despite having more chaos energy than Sonic:
Dimitri Enerjak's defeat (K9)
Ugly Naugus' defeat (66)
Super Scourge's defeat (196)
Super Sonic's defeat (126, this is a technicality)
Dark Enerjak's defeat (U28)
Chaos Knuckles' death (118)
The Ancient Walker's death (162)
"The fates," as Mogul puts it, did not convene to help or save any of these characters, but we are supposed to believe it would for Sonic, despite having less chaos energy.
Even if one were to ignore this damning evidence on the basis that the fate hax is exclusively Sonic's and wouldn't apply to other beings (this is a meaningless misdirect as the basis of Eggman's theory was still proven wrong, there is no reason to believe any of it) the comic consistently proves this to still not be the case. In addition to previously mentioned defeats at the hands of Naugus and Mogul, Sonic is defeated in issues 39, 90, 150, 157, 161, 165, 194, and most notably 175 where he is defeated by Eggman directly, making Eggman's theory that he can never defeat Sonic dead on arrival.
I've often seen the excuse that the fate hax will occasionally grant Sonic an eventual victory rather than an immediate one, but this doesn't seem to be based on anything as both Mogul and Eggman imply no victory can be achieved. This idea seems to exist only as an excuse to explain away the numerous defeats Sonic has suffered throughout his run rather than a genuine interpretation of Eggman and Mogul's words.
Eggman's theory and the idea of Sonic's fate hax seem to imply that it would benefit Sonic, even in non-combat environments. Outside of Mogul's take, there's no reason for the ability to be exclusive to combat, but just as with combat, Sonic's track record is far from perfect. Sally breaking up with him, Tommy Turtle's death, Naugus becoming king, and Sally's robotization/betrayal are all things he not only desired not to happen but also actively worked to prevent, yet his "hax" grant him no victory.
Due to the ease of which both Mogul and Eggman's statements are discredited, there is no basis for Sonic's fate hax, but due to this hax often being applied as an extension of his established ring aura, I feel it necessary to thoroughly disprove it in its entirety.
Silver alters the timeline Back to the Future 2 style when he time travels, he went back three times meaning prime Sonic died in three variations of Silver's past. All four being the prime Sonic, they all live through the same events prior to Silver's introduction with him showing up one additional time after each failed attempt to save the future. With the way time travel works, all three Sonics stayed dead, none of them are revived, so the "eventual victory" excuse doesn't even apply. This means Sonic permanently dies three times.
An excuse could be made that since the Ancient Walkers exist outside of time, they only granted the ring aura to the Sonic we see. Not only would this be a desperate attempt to explain away a critical part of the story, it is inarguably incorrect. The ring aura would be required for the dead Sonic's to have acted out Mecha Madness and Enerjak Reborn. Additionally, Mogul's recount of the past and Antoine's journal confirms history was the same prior to Silver's final trip to the past, meaning Eggman's crackpot theory and any other "evidence" of fate hax occurred in said version of the prime timeline, and he still died.
In Sonic Quest 1 Rotor explains that the ring's aura is tuned specifically to Sonic and won't work on others. This makes sense as the aura was gifted to Sonic for collecting so many rings, and is consistent with the instances that specifically mention the ring aura, as they only showcase the aura directly protecting Sonic (Mecha Madness is a minor exception, however, since the aura required outside assistance to alter reality, it does not discredit Rotor's statement)
Since the ring aura is said and shown to only affect Sonic, any unlikely victory or plot convenience that is brought about by characters other than Sonic cannot be attributed to the aura.
Locke saving Sonic from Scourge (151)
Freedom Fighters defeating the Egg Beater (177)
Mina saving Sonic from SWATbots (90)
Silver saving Sonic from Mecha Sally (247)
Eggman defeats ADAM (169)
Morgan defeats Ugly Naugus (66)
Sonic being revived after Mephelis (encyclopedia)
Both defeats of Master Mogul (56 and 151)
Trying to stretch the effects of the ring aura to have other characters defeat an enemy Sonic cannot is not only unsupported but flat out contradicted. This effectively confirms Mogul and Eggman are mistaken as Sonic is not the sole reason for their various defeats, particularly in Mogul's case, as Sonic is only tentatively involved.
Finally, while it is correct that SEGA has mandated that Sonic never truly lose, this does not require there to be an in-universe force that causes Sonic's victory. Any instance of plot convenience that is not mentioned to have been caused by some kind of fate hax can't be used as evidence for its exitance only examples of its potency if its validity is proven. Furthermore, as explained, Silver's past exhibits that even this mandate can be worked around.
Since both Eggman and Mogul's statements are wholly incorrect and the ring aura is confirmed to not be able to affect others, there is no basis for Sonic having fate hax, and it should be removed.
Chaos Force
Sonic is credited for destroying the Chaos Force based on this quote from Ian Flyn.
This statement, however, seems to have been misinterpreted. For starters, he does not actually say "the Chaos Force no longer exists" rather, he says "'Chaos Force' no longer exists". His placing Chaos Force in quotation marks is significant and could very well mean that only the terminology of and about the Chaos Force was abandoned. Due to the nature of the Penders lawsuit we know this to be the case, this point is to propose the possibility that this is the extent of what he meant. Even after elaborating on the in-universe ramifications of this change, this point is not discredited. With the removal of character's knowledge of the now off-limits Chaos Force, it has effectively become its game counterpart. This does not require the Chaos Force to no longer exist but that the in-universe understanding and use of the concept no longer does, or to put it another way, the Chaos Force exists but "Chaos Force" no longer does. In any regard, as a writer, Ian putting Chaos Force in quotes is clearly significant, and to hammer home this significance, I will refer to the unnamed post SGW source of chaos energy as the "Chaos Force" for the remainder of the thread.
Even if one were to not accept the previous interpretation, the way Ian's response is worded along with the way he explains the removal of the idea of the Chaos Force does not necessitate that the Chaos Force be erased in-universe only that the character's use and understanding of the "Chaos Force" match the games, something the Chaos Force could easily accommodate while retaining its original functionality. Furthermore, the vagueness of the "Chaos Force" allows for the Chaos Force to continue existing without creating any legal problems. I am not claiming that was the intention, as this vagueness seems to derive from the game's lack of explanation rather than Ian's own desire to leave it unexplored. What I am claiming is that due to the nature of the Chaos Force, the SGW, and Ian's response it is evident that it does still exist and simply cannot be identified as such for legal reasons.
To preemptively respond to any argument that the Chaos Force and "Chaos Force" are never directly stated to be the same and as such are not; any statement comparing the pre SGW Chaos Emeralds and their power to the post SGW can be at best an allusion to or an implication due to the copyright issues that caused the term "Chaos Force" to be dropped in the first place. Even with this in mind, there is quite a bit to substantiate they are one and the same.
Throughout the post SGW timeline characters who remember the pre SGW timeline identify and utilize Chaos Emeralds and "Chaos Force" the same as they did in the old timeline. Even in Worlds Unite, Eggman and Sonic make no distinction that the emeralds or their power source have been altered when explaining Worlds Collide to Wily and Megaman. If anyone would recognize and identify a change in how they function it would be Sonic and Eggman. Sonic even references using his and Megaman's super forms and a supercharged chaos control "like last time" implying that the Chaos Force and "Chaos Force" are the same.
Even if one were to ignore all previous points, they must acknowledge that Sonic erasing the Chaos Force creates unrectifiable problems with the scaling of the verse.
Enerjak avatars are inarguably stronger than Super Sonic. Master Mogul, who has Dimitri's power, and Knuckles Enerjak are both shown to be far stronger than him, and this is substantiated by Dark Enerjak defeating an alternate Super Sonic.
Super Sonic is shown to not be a threat to Master Mogul, the only damage he inflicts is while Mogul is off guard, making it unimpressive. Even with the help of Hyper knuckles, the stronger Turbo Tails, and a chaos siphon, they are unable to harm let alone defeat Mogul. It is only because of the intervention of Locke and Sabre that Mogul is defeated.
Super Sonic is only able to fight against Knuckles Enerjak on equal ground because he is massively weakened. Logically, this would mean the weakened Enerjak scales to Sonic rather than Sonic scaling to Enerjak. Sonic's demeanor during the fight is not an indication of his superiority as he displayed the same cocky attitude while engaging Enerjak in base form. Additionally, Knuckles' decision to teleport Sonic away is not an admittance that he cannot defeat him, but rather a response to Sonic's pestering about his invulnerability. Unlike Mogul when he says he cannot defeat Sonic, Knuckles continues to attempt defeating him physically, Sonic's positive aura is also mostly irrelevant as A. Knuckles is weakened and B. other than "some progress" it doesn't result in anything.
Chaos Knuckles exhibits similar strength to Enerjak avatars, with Finitivus and Knuckles both comparing their power to Chaos Knuckles' and Shadow compares them indirectly. Gala-na additionally states Knuckles is potentially even stronger than Enerjak in issue 94.
It is worth noting that Athair and Merlin sending Turbo Tails to stop Chaos Knuckles in issue 96 does not mean he scales. Athair believes Tails can help Knuckles because they are friends and he is the chosen one, Merlin is worried Tails will die and only agrees when Athair tells him Knuckles is at his weakest.
The Ancient Walkers are placed above super forms as well. Not only are they one with the Chaos Forcegiving them a higher state of existence, but their power is often compared to Chaos Knuckleswith Locke and Sabre believing them to be stronger than Master Mogul. Mogul wounding the Ancient Walkers is also retconned to take place after he absorbs Chaos Knuckles' power rather than after he is freed from the Master Emerald. The Encyclopedia consistently places the event at this new time, making it an intentional change to the lore. With this change, the inconsistency of super forms scaling above the Ancient Walkers is removed.
Beyond all the previous characters is True Enerjak, who exists within the Chaos Force itself and was too powerful for the Ancient Walkers to defeat. He would also, of course, scale above his avatars by virtue of granting them their power.
Beyond even True Enerjak is Master Mogul during his second tenure. Instead of merely joining with the Chaos Force as Enerjak and the Ancient Walkers had, he managed to take full control of it, becoming the strongest being in the multiverse. Seeing as all previous characters utilize a portion of the Chaos Force and Mogul had complete control of it, he would naturally be superior to everyone.
Sonic erasing the Chaos Force would erroneously put him above all of these characters going against all the evidence that was just laid out. It would entail Sonic actually defeating True Enerjak directly, something even the Ancient Walkers couldn't do, even with assistance, which is just nonsensical. Accepting the scaling the comic provides requires one to reject this feat lest it creates the paradoxical situation wherein Sonic is both the strongest character in the verse and weaker than several others.
Possibly even more egregious than the problem created with scaling, Sonic erasing the Chaos Force is, without question, logistically impossible.
Edmund explains that only more chaos energy can overcome chaos energy, we see Sonic and Megaman passively resist the effects of the SGW, and since the Chaos Force is the source of all chaos energy, no amount of chaos energy should be able to overcome it as it will always be inferior to the force. Ergo Sonic is only able to use a portion of the Chaos Force's power, it makes no sense for him to be able to overcome and erase its existence. The idea of a character erasing a fundamental aspect of the multiverse using only a fraction of that aspect's power is laughable.
Now, I've seen it argued that since the Chaos Emeralds are described as being the physical manifestatio of the Chaos Force, they grant access to the entirety of its power. Just at face value, this is ludicrous, this interpretation, on top of being unfounded, would imply a single Chaos Emerald would grant access to the same power as all 7 or even 14 or any number. It makes any number beyond one become superfluous, which is proven very wrong throughout the comic. Firstly, seeing as both Sonic and Megaman use the emeralds to transform, Sonic flat out can't have access to all of the force's power as, even if the emeralds did allow for that, it's being split with Megaman. Additionally, the Chaos Force provides power for all the Chaos Emeralds in the multiverse, making it tens of thousands of times more powerful than the mere 7 used by Sonic, especially considering the great harmony would result in thousands of emeralds no longer requiring energy, returning it to the force. Finally, the Chaos Emeralds only possess potentially infinite energy, they cannot grant access to all of the Chaos Force's power and certainly not all at once, and since Sonic is not continuously being supplied with power from the emeralds, he would only have a finite amount to work with during the duration of his transformation.
Since Sonic utilizes the positive energy of the Chaos Emeralds, he would only be able to access, at most, half of the Chaos Force's full power. It could be argued that this positive negative distinction is exclusive to the Super Emeralds, which are distinctly not Chaos Emeralds, but since Sonic himself makes this distinctio in 184 after utilizing the Master Emerald, this does not appear to be the case.
Regardless, the Chaos Force is so far beyond the Chaos Emeralds, let alone Sonic, that even if one took Ian's statement as him saying it was destroyed, it's such a horrendous outlier that it cannot and should not be considered legitimate.
A few additional points:
It's been said that the new cosmology introduced in the post SGW timeline disproves the idea of the Chaos Force's continued existence, but like with most, this is not the case.
There simply isn't enough informatio known about the new cosmology to say it contradicts the Chaos Force's continued existence. Nothing is known about the Chaos Titans, they could be cosmic beings, but they could be regular Mobians, they could be the Ancient Walkers under a different name for copyright reasons for all we know, but the bottom line is we don't. The same goes for First Spark, we don't know anything about him, he could be connected to the "Chaos Force" or be completely separate, he could be the Source of All, but again, we don't know.
Ixis also does not prove that the Chaos Force and "Chaos Force" are different. He is stated to be an entity entirely separate from the "Chaos Force" that has existed since the beginning of time by Naugus. Since Naugus remembers both timelines, it's not unreasonable to assume that Ixis existed in the pre SGW timeline but was similarly sealed away. Seeing as Ixis is a cosmic entity apparently on the level of the "Chaos Force" it would make sense for it to also not be destroyed by the SGW. Additionally, if Ixis didn't exist pre SGW then Sonic would have had to have created him which is nonsense. Since matter can't be created or destroyed, for Ixis to be comparatively as strong as the "Chaos Force" its power would only be about half as strong as the Chaos Force which is very clearly not the case. Ixis existing pre SGW is partially conjecture, it is, however, conjecture that attempts to explain a potential inconsistency since there is no logical way Sonic could have created him.
I've also seen Dark Gaia mentioned with this "cosmology", however, from what I can tell, he isn't connected to the "Chaos Force" and even if he was, his millennia-long slumber would make his lack of appearance pre SGW moot.
It is constantly stated that Eggman attempted to rewrite reality and that Sonic's reality was destroyed. However, as I'm sure you're all aware, the Chaos Force exists outside of reality meaning the destruction of reality does not and should not mean the Chaos Force is destroyed or even affected.
My understanding is Executor is planning on revising the Source of All, and he has stated that Sonic is unable to destroy it. If it's accepted Sonic can't overcome the Source of All, it is ludicrous to accept him overcoming the Chaos Force, especially when all evidence shows he can't.
It is irresponsible to acknowledge The Source of All's lack of appearance in the post SGW timeline as being due to copyright issues and not do the same for the Chaos Force, especially when not doing so creates massive problems with consistency and lore.
In the end, one must either accept that this feat did not happen or is too inconsistent to be used.
Miscellaneous
Unless I misread the page, Abstract Existence type 3 isn't a thing. But from what I can tell, this is based on Eggman describing Sonic as the embodiment of chaos. This, however, is based on a misunderstanding of Eggman's words, he is referring to entropy, not chaos energy. This is evident when reading his entire explanation, he defines entropy calling it chaos, differentiates chaos energy, then states Sonic embodies chaos instead of chaos energy.
Sonic's durability coming from fighting the Egg Beater should be removed. The Egg Beater gets its AP from fighting Sonic not the other way around.
Undoing the SGW should be listed on pre SGW Sonic's page, not post.
Similarly, some post SGW abilities are given justification using pre SGW feats.
Post SGW Chaos' ability to control Mobius' oceans doesn't seem like it equates to his actual strength, I could be wrong about this as it's not something I looked into, just something I noticed.
A quote from the Sonic News Network shouldn't be used as evidence.
Enerjak did not attempt to de-atomize Super Sonic, the dialogue makes it very clear he meant to teleport him.
Is this the source for beings in the Chaos Force having omnipresence? Because that's not omnipresence.
Thank you for reading. Again, sorry about the length.
Topics:
Chaos Emeralds
Equipment
Abilities/resistances
Immortality
Low 2C
Ultra Sonic
Fate hax
Chaos Force
Miscellaneous
Chaos Emeralds
The Chaos Emeralds are listed as being tens of thousands of times stronger after the great harmony due to Feist fusing all the emeralds in the universe into only seven.
While it is true that adding emeralds together increases their power, the method Feist used to fuse the emeralds is unknown and is not guaranteed to have resulted in increasing their power the way it presumably should have. In fact, we know Feist altered the emeralds in some way when fusing them since the different colored gems lost their secondary abilities i.e. the red emeralds manifesting a super form as a separate entity. The Master Emerald was formed by reversing Mogul's absorption ability, resulting in the emeralds absorbing him and his power, it is highly unlikely that this was the method Feist used.
On top of there being absolutely no statements post-harmony that go so far as to even imply that the emeralds are more powerful than before, we are even shown multiple times they are the same: Devices designed to be used with pre-harmony emeralds operate with no issues using post-harmony emeralds, all seven are still required to activate a super form, the Master Emerald, which is only 14 emeralds, is still more powerful than all seven post-harmony emeralds.
Furthermore, Ian Flynn has more than once flat out said that the emeralds' power is the same before and after the great harmony in response to this issue. While his reasoning that "infinity+infinity=infinity" could be seen as dubious as it seems to imply things such as one Chaos Emerald being the same strength as seven, despite this not being the case before or after the harmony, his word usage in his second answer actually seems to be a reflection of Mogul's dialogue about adding infinite power to his own infinite power. Regardless, his direct statements on the matter is reflected in his writing and as such cannot be ignored.
Given that the emeralds are the same power wise post harmony, this isn't really relevant until later, but the ocean of emeralds seen in issue 35 was not part of the great harmony. Sonic is taken to a different zone by the Ancient Walkers and Adam says the spire gathered the emeralds only from their universe, this would exclude pocket dimensions connected to the prime universe. This is evident by them sending the emeralds to the Zone of Silence, which is "not another dimension entirely". If the spire was able to retrieve the emeralds from the zone in 35 it would have been able to retrieve them from the ZoS, but it can't.
Equipment
Power Rings and Chaos Emeralds should not be standard equipment. When in need of either he always has to retrieve them himself or is given them by others; he does not keep any on his perso unless he knows he needs them. He has never been in possession of a Chaos Emerald for an extended period of time, let alone all seven, when it comes to the post harmony emeralds he's never had one for even so long as a full issue (this may very well be the case for the pre harmony emeralds as well, but I am unable to thoroughly check)
Sonic's proficiency with the Sword of Light and Sword of Acorns is greatly exaggerated. He has only used each sword a single time (224 and SSS4 respectively) and with the Sword of Light was outmatched by Naugus whom the sword directly counters. The only ability he displayed while using the Sword of Acorns was its passive power Nullification but only to negate mind control, he was unable to heal Max of his crystallization whereas Max could. There's no evidence Sonic could replicate feats performed by members of the House of Acorn or characters learned in magic such as Mogul.
Sonic uses a power ring to BFR Naugus in Sonic Super Special 15, and it's revealed Nate power nulled him via removing his rings.
However, Sonic Super Special 15 is retconned by Free Comic Book Day 2011 (issue 5) In this issue we see Morgan didn't truly power null Naugus (at least not fully) as he was still powered by thousands of rings, and the rings in the ruins of Nate's castle are leftover from issue 66. Additionally, instead of using a single ring to BFR Naugus, Sonic transforms into Ultra Sonic in order to defeat him.
To substantiate FCBD5 is a retcon of SSS15, it tells virtually the same story as SSS15 with dialogue in both that places their events between issues 71 and 72 leaving no room for both stories. Furthermore, Sonic uses all the rings left in Nate Morgan's castle in FCBD5 and Naugus isn't depowered before the comic's events making it virtually impossible for SSS15 to have taken place before of afterward.
Dialogue implies the ring Nate used was possibly enhanced, similar to the Ring of Acorns. This makes sense as it exists as his last means of defense, but even if it wasn't, knocking back Naugus while he was off guard is consistent, even when he's powered up.
The power ring's power null and BFR abilities should be removed.
The Sword of Acorns causes the death of the Ancient Walkers, but only in a technical sense. The sword was not used against them, only to open a portal to the Zone of Silence, this created a dimensional rift which is what killed the walkers. When referring to their deaths only the rift is mentioned, it was not the sword's power that kills them; they were effectively hit by a shockwave. It's also worth noting the Walkers were dying and very weak when the dimensional wave kills them. The Sword's ability to possess its user is also likely exclusive to Sally as she is its vessel and we are only shown it possessing and speaking to her; it doesn't possess Mogul in 164 even when its destruction was imminent.
Abilities/resistances
Sonic has mind hax resistance by resisting Master Mogul and Enerjak's mind hax.
However, neither of these things actually happened. Mogul does state he plans to take control of Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles but never actually attempts to when they return and as such, there is no resistance feat. Conversely, Turbo Tails, who is stronger than Super Sonic, was able to have a mind control mark placed on him by a weaker Mogul. Enerjak similarly never attempts to hax Sonic, he only resists Finitivus' hex. Said hex took control of Knuckles and is what allowed Enerjak to take over, Enerjak is not inherently part of the hex.
As for Finitivus' hex, it took control of base Knuckles and nothing more. The moment he attempted to use the Master Emerald's power, he was under Finitivus' control, making it unreasonable for him to have transformed into Chaos Knuckles. Finitivus stating Knuckles had "had this power before" is also not proof he was Chaos Knuckles as Enerjak and Chaos Knuckles' powers are not only similar but have been compared before. Knuckles using the Master Emerald's power also does not necessitate he become Chaos Knuckles as he only becomes Hyper Knuckles when doing so in issue 141. If the hex were able to affect Chaos Knuckles it would have been able to affect Sonic since Cal, who is weaker than Chaos Knuckles, was able to mind hax Sonic in issue 59. Additionally, Ian Flynn has confirmed Knuckles only transformed into Enerjak.
Sonic is unable to resist Cal's matter manipulation in issue 59 as well.
Sonic's ring aura does not negate power nullification. He is afflicted with speed Reduction is issue 38, requiring multiple rings to reverse. Scourge is able to use the emerald without Finitevus' knowing in issue 183, implying Locke alone was blocked from the emerald rather than everyone. Additionally, Finitivus allows Sonic to use the emerald in 183 to expedite his plan, and his curiosity is in how he remained unaffected by the hex rather than how he accessed the Master Emerald's power.
Mogul's sixth sense is an ability he claims he gained along with his Master form, so his base form should not have it. Additionally, he describes his sense as a type of homing beacon that points him to sources of power, not any sort of precognition, he didn't know Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles would retur and was unaware of how until Athair shows up.
Base Sonic's resistances (power nullification, matter manipulation, soul absorption, etc.) shouldn't be scaled to Enerjak since he never attempted to use said abilities against Sonic.
Can someone provide Sonic's feats for magic resistance, because it seems exaggerated from what I've seen?
Immortality
Sonic is granted Type 8 immortality via his ring aura reviving him after being erased by the Ultimate Annihilator.
This, however, is not what actually happens, Snively replaced everyone's bio-data with Robotnik's meaning only Robotnik could be erased. The Annihilator overloaded due to Sonic and Robotnik's fight which caused Sonic and the rest of Mobius to blink out of existence for a moment. While Sonic was both at ground zero of the Annihilator overloading and in close proximity to Robotnik he still wasn't in danger. The Annihilator was coded specifically for Robotnik's bio-data, Sonic being close to and or touching him would not result in him being erased with Robotnik since his bio-data would still be different. Sonic was confirmed to have popped out of existence and returned alongside Mobius, no ring aura involved, he came back the same as everyone else. Him coming back progressively can't be contrasted with anyone else as we only see Sonic return and since we are told he came back the same as them, the only assumption that can be made is they came back the same. A ring being on scree is not sufficient evidence to say the ring aura is responsible for his return when we don't see anyone else's return to compare it too and we are told both in the story in encyclopedia that he returned the same as everyone else.
Sonic's ring aura required extra power in order to unroboticize him in the Mecha Madness Special making it is unreasonable to assume the aura could return him from a state of nonexistence entirely on its own without extra power when it was unable to perform a lesser feat previously.
Furthermore, Sonic is confirmed to have died twice. He is killed through unknown means by Mephelis, requiring the Chaos Emeralds to revive him and is permanently killed by Mecha Sally in Silver's past, which is confirmed to be the Prime Zone timeline. So even if one pretends Sonic had type 8 immortality in issue 50, it was only a one-time thing and is no longer applicable.
Sonic is also listed as having Type 3 immortality, however, there doesn't seem to be any justification for this and there are no examples of him displaying any sort of advanced healing to my knowledge. If it's based on the ring aura preserving his life force, it still doesn't qualify for type 3, the deroboticization process also healed Knuckles' wounds and the aura was unable to alter Sonic at all on its own.
Sonic's immortality should be removed.
Low 2C/2C
Sonic and a couple of others have various feats that put them and by extension the majority of the cast at low 2C, however, none of these feats are legitimate.
Numerous higher tier characters have been staggered, knocked back, or inconvenienced when take off guard despite being massively beyond the characters attacking them. Omega attacking Feist is not a true low 2C feat. In fact, in the very next panel, we see Omega's attack does not truly harm Fiest, and he states later the attack was "only a small megato" a far cry from the low 2C feat it is touted as.
Sonic does not tank a blast from Feist, this took place in King Max's mind.
Shadow disrupting the Skull Egg Zone is irrelevant as the zone is unstable.
Sonic and Tails tanking a blast from Al and Cal in issue 59 is only half true, they don't tank a direct attack, they are badly hurt by an explosio caused by one of their attacks and don't fully recover until Al and Cal reshape them. Even if they did tank a direct attack, this in no way scales AP, it's entirely a defense feat.
Scourge's inner monologue in Universe 32 is an unreliable source to scale him above Al and Cal. I context, Scourge's statement is referring to the people he's fighting, which would exclude Al and Cal. Beyond that, given that he is on a revenge-fueled power high, the majority of his opponents have restraining collars, and he lists his accomplishments to boost his ego, his statement is little more than unfounded chest pounding. Furthermore, his statement is completely baseless in comparing him to Al and Cal; Scourge has no real frame of reference for how strong they are outside of them destroying a few walls. It's implied that Al and Cal's power is only absolute while in their own zone, meaning even if Scourge's statement does include them and is correct, there's no way to quantify how strong they are when he makes his statement. Without substantial supporting evidence, his statement cannot be taken at face value.
Sonic has been shown fighting the likes of Naugus and Mogul in base form. However, both events are removed from context.
Sonic is shown in issue 223 to be unable to do anything to Naugus (except when catching him off guard) who hardly pays him any attentio. He is only able to fight him is 224 because he has the Sword of Light which counters Naugus' magic to the point that merely touching it causes him pain. Even with the sword, however, Naugus bests both Sonic and Elias, the latter of which states Naugus is too powerful. Even when Naugus didn't have a Chaos Emerald, Sonic has never truly bee a match for him. He has never matched him in combat, needing to resort to using rings in FCBD5. Sonic's speed is the only thing that lets him fight Naugus at all, but he is shown to not be a true equal in terms of power.
Similarly, Sonic is no match for Mogul. Sonic does defeat Mogul in issue 114, however, this event is inconsistent and should not be used. In 163, using a similar attack to one Sonic tanks in 114, Mogul knocks out not only Sonic but also eight others with ease right after Sonic implies he's weaker than before. Mogul similarly proves to be far too much for Sonic along with the rest of the Freedom Fighters and Chaotix in Sonic Super Special 1, with Mogul himself stating he is not at full strength. These are the only times an unenhanced Mogul has battled Sonic, therefore, issue 114 creates an inconsistency. It is, however, within Mogul's character to fake a defeat to further a grander plan as shown in SSS1 and Mecha Madness, considering Mogul leaves his fight with Sonic to prepare his trap for Chaos Knuckles, it's very clear his defeat in 114 was a farce.
Furthermore, Mogul is Naugus' superior, if Sonic can't even match Naugus, then logically he cannot match Mogul, further substantiating that the instance in 114 is dubious.
Naugus did not create the Zone of Silence, he is stated to have merely discovered it. There are statements of him creating it, however, these could be explained as him crafting it after its discovery, with the encyclopedia saying just that, retconning statements claiming he made it. He has only shown universal power while in the Zone of Silence, which greatly enhances his powers. His ability to manipulate the zone from the outside also does not truly show universal manipulation as, even while enhanced, he is unable to affect anything outside the zone while inside and is unable to leave the zone without outside assistance in issue 53. Even before his manipulation began the zone's natural properties enhancing his power is the reason he's able to manipulate it or else he would have no need for the zone after escaping and could create an environment that impowered him anywhere.
Ultra Sonic
Ultra Sonic is implied to be a superior form to Super Sonic in issue 71 by Sonic first going super then ultra. However, when taking issue 83 and Ultra Sonic's other appearances into account, this doesn't appear to be the case. In 71 Sonic goes ultra with only one Super Emerald, but when using seven Super Emeralds in 83 he only goes super, coupled with the other inconsistencies and plot holes created by the Super Emeralds (explained here and here) this is an unreliable method to scale Ultra Sonic.
The Complete Encyclopedia implies forms achieved with power rings are more of an alternative super form to ones achieved with Chaos Emeralds rather than enhanced ones. Sonic saying, he has less finesse as Ultra Sonic further implies the form uses a different power set than Super Sonic. This is supported by the encyclopedia describing ring transformations as having elemental powers, comparing them to Ixis magics. This is consistent with Ultra Sonic's showings of atomically manipulating the elements along with adapting to various environments.
Ultra Sonic should be listed as an alternative super form with a separate power set instead of a more powerful one.
Fate hax
Sonic is granted rather potent fate hax based on these statements from Mammoth Mogul and Eggma.
Taking the rest of the comic into account, however, neither hold up to scrutiny.
Mogul's statement is technically correct in that fate altered to cause his defeat, but he is incorrect in assuming Sonic has anything to do with it. It is explained numerous times that Mogul's past defeats where the result of a curse the Ancient Walkers placed on the Chaos Emerald in his chest. Every single statement about his defeat that does not come from him states his curse is why he failed. It's unreasonable to expect Mogul to place the blame for his failure on a curse he did not know he had. While it is also correct that Mogul was no longer cursed when he makes this statement, he would obviously be unaware of this as well. Ian Flynn has confirmed that this is the case. Mogul's statement is illegitimate and can't be used as evidence.
Eggman's statement seems more legitimate at face value, but upon further investigation, it falls apart just as fast.
Eggman's actions following his defeat in issue 200 make it very clear that this idea that Sonic is patently unpredictable and will always win is merely a mental crutch he uses to regain and maintain his sanity. We literally see this in action in issue 230 when Eggman begins to go mad again before calming himself down with the idea of Sonic's "constant chaos". Data files also say he "reasons" himself back to sanity when coming up with this idea and Ian Flynn has said Eggman is still not mentally stable, removing much credibility from his theory.
He concocts an excuse for why Sonic is the sole reason for his failure, despite him being unable to conquer Knothole in the entire year Sonic was in space. His hubris obviously goes beyond Sonic, but in his insanity, he convinces himself of the idea of Sonic's "chaos factor". His plan in the Genesis arc was to reset the world to a state where he is able to roboticize Mobius, and in the event that that plan is thwarted all machinery on the planet will be destroyed. Additionally, his plan involved rebooting Sonic himself so that he would no longer have his "chaos factor". After he achieves victory in roboticizing Sally he no longer requires this mental crutch to stay sane, to explain away his failure. He no longer factors in Sonic's "chaos factor" when devising new plans, he never even mentions it again after 231, after he's achieved the victory he needed. The blame for all future setbacks and losses are no longer placed on this faulty theory; when Sonic thwarts an attack on Furville in issue 236 and on the Wolf Pack and Felidae in issue 238 Eggman doesn't blame cosmic interference, he has truly regained his sanity and no longer needs this mental crutch.
This is further substantiated by his actions throughout Worlds Collide.
While collaborating with Dr Wily, he never mentions how Sonic undid his last Genesis Wave, he never mentions how Sonic could be a problem at all, he has complete confidence in their victory, because he no longer believes in Sonic's "chaos factor" because he no longer needs to. Eggman is so reassured of his inevitable victory after teaming up with Wily that he goes so far as to say Megaman could defeat Sonicduring their fight in issue 248, this is a ridiculous thing for Eggman to say if he truly believes in Sonic's "chaos factor". Even when he becomes worried Sonic and Megaman will stop them, Eggman doesn't attribute this is any kind of fate hax, being easily reassured by Wily. At one point he even becomes worried Dr Light will be the one to thwart his plan rather than Sonic. After the SGW is undone, Eggman still doesn't blame Sonic's fate hax, and still doesn't give it as the reason for his and Wily's defeat when recounting Worlds Collide's events in World's Unite. Eggman himself has no real faith in the idea of Sonic's fate hax.
Even if Eggman's own lack of belief in this idea wasn't enough, his actual theory itself does not hold up to scrutiny.
His theory postulates that the more chaos energy someone has the greater their fate hax will be. This is made clear when he says in issue 210 that Sonic's "constant inconsistency" comes from him absorbing more Chaos Energy than anyone else and in issue 231 when he states his belief that having a Chaos Emerald put the "chaos factor" in his favor. This, however, is patently untrue. Numerous characters have been defeated and or even died despite having more chaos energy than Sonic:
Dimitri Enerjak's defeat (K9)
Ugly Naugus' defeat (66)
Super Scourge's defeat (196)
Super Sonic's defeat (126, this is a technicality)
Dark Enerjak's defeat (U28)
Chaos Knuckles' death (118)
The Ancient Walker's death (162)
"The fates," as Mogul puts it, did not convene to help or save any of these characters, but we are supposed to believe it would for Sonic, despite having less chaos energy.
Even if one were to ignore this damning evidence on the basis that the fate hax is exclusively Sonic's and wouldn't apply to other beings (this is a meaningless misdirect as the basis of Eggman's theory was still proven wrong, there is no reason to believe any of it) the comic consistently proves this to still not be the case. In addition to previously mentioned defeats at the hands of Naugus and Mogul, Sonic is defeated in issues 39, 90, 150, 157, 161, 165, 194, and most notably 175 where he is defeated by Eggman directly, making Eggman's theory that he can never defeat Sonic dead on arrival.
I've often seen the excuse that the fate hax will occasionally grant Sonic an eventual victory rather than an immediate one, but this doesn't seem to be based on anything as both Mogul and Eggman imply no victory can be achieved. This idea seems to exist only as an excuse to explain away the numerous defeats Sonic has suffered throughout his run rather than a genuine interpretation of Eggman and Mogul's words.
Eggman's theory and the idea of Sonic's fate hax seem to imply that it would benefit Sonic, even in non-combat environments. Outside of Mogul's take, there's no reason for the ability to be exclusive to combat, but just as with combat, Sonic's track record is far from perfect. Sally breaking up with him, Tommy Turtle's death, Naugus becoming king, and Sally's robotization/betrayal are all things he not only desired not to happen but also actively worked to prevent, yet his "hax" grant him no victory.
Due to the ease of which both Mogul and Eggman's statements are discredited, there is no basis for Sonic's fate hax, but due to this hax often being applied as an extension of his established ring aura, I feel it necessary to thoroughly disprove it in its entirety.
Silver alters the timeline Back to the Future 2 style when he time travels, he went back three times meaning prime Sonic died in three variations of Silver's past. All four being the prime Sonic, they all live through the same events prior to Silver's introduction with him showing up one additional time after each failed attempt to save the future. With the way time travel works, all three Sonics stayed dead, none of them are revived, so the "eventual victory" excuse doesn't even apply. This means Sonic permanently dies three times.
An excuse could be made that since the Ancient Walkers exist outside of time, they only granted the ring aura to the Sonic we see. Not only would this be a desperate attempt to explain away a critical part of the story, it is inarguably incorrect. The ring aura would be required for the dead Sonic's to have acted out Mecha Madness and Enerjak Reborn. Additionally, Mogul's recount of the past and Antoine's journal confirms history was the same prior to Silver's final trip to the past, meaning Eggman's crackpot theory and any other "evidence" of fate hax occurred in said version of the prime timeline, and he still died.
In Sonic Quest 1 Rotor explains that the ring's aura is tuned specifically to Sonic and won't work on others. This makes sense as the aura was gifted to Sonic for collecting so many rings, and is consistent with the instances that specifically mention the ring aura, as they only showcase the aura directly protecting Sonic (Mecha Madness is a minor exception, however, since the aura required outside assistance to alter reality, it does not discredit Rotor's statement)
Since the ring aura is said and shown to only affect Sonic, any unlikely victory or plot convenience that is brought about by characters other than Sonic cannot be attributed to the aura.
Locke saving Sonic from Scourge (151)
Freedom Fighters defeating the Egg Beater (177)
Mina saving Sonic from SWATbots (90)
Silver saving Sonic from Mecha Sally (247)
Eggman defeats ADAM (169)
Morgan defeats Ugly Naugus (66)
Sonic being revived after Mephelis (encyclopedia)
Both defeats of Master Mogul (56 and 151)
Trying to stretch the effects of the ring aura to have other characters defeat an enemy Sonic cannot is not only unsupported but flat out contradicted. This effectively confirms Mogul and Eggman are mistaken as Sonic is not the sole reason for their various defeats, particularly in Mogul's case, as Sonic is only tentatively involved.
Finally, while it is correct that SEGA has mandated that Sonic never truly lose, this does not require there to be an in-universe force that causes Sonic's victory. Any instance of plot convenience that is not mentioned to have been caused by some kind of fate hax can't be used as evidence for its exitance only examples of its potency if its validity is proven. Furthermore, as explained, Silver's past exhibits that even this mandate can be worked around.
Since both Eggman and Mogul's statements are wholly incorrect and the ring aura is confirmed to not be able to affect others, there is no basis for Sonic having fate hax, and it should be removed.
Chaos Force
Sonic is credited for destroying the Chaos Force based on this quote from Ian Flyn.
This statement, however, seems to have been misinterpreted. For starters, he does not actually say "the Chaos Force no longer exists" rather, he says "'Chaos Force' no longer exists". His placing Chaos Force in quotation marks is significant and could very well mean that only the terminology of and about the Chaos Force was abandoned. Due to the nature of the Penders lawsuit we know this to be the case, this point is to propose the possibility that this is the extent of what he meant. Even after elaborating on the in-universe ramifications of this change, this point is not discredited. With the removal of character's knowledge of the now off-limits Chaos Force, it has effectively become its game counterpart. This does not require the Chaos Force to no longer exist but that the in-universe understanding and use of the concept no longer does, or to put it another way, the Chaos Force exists but "Chaos Force" no longer does. In any regard, as a writer, Ian putting Chaos Force in quotes is clearly significant, and to hammer home this significance, I will refer to the unnamed post SGW source of chaos energy as the "Chaos Force" for the remainder of the thread.
Even if one were to not accept the previous interpretation, the way Ian's response is worded along with the way he explains the removal of the idea of the Chaos Force does not necessitate that the Chaos Force be erased in-universe only that the character's use and understanding of the "Chaos Force" match the games, something the Chaos Force could easily accommodate while retaining its original functionality. Furthermore, the vagueness of the "Chaos Force" allows for the Chaos Force to continue existing without creating any legal problems. I am not claiming that was the intention, as this vagueness seems to derive from the game's lack of explanation rather than Ian's own desire to leave it unexplored. What I am claiming is that due to the nature of the Chaos Force, the SGW, and Ian's response it is evident that it does still exist and simply cannot be identified as such for legal reasons.
To preemptively respond to any argument that the Chaos Force and "Chaos Force" are never directly stated to be the same and as such are not; any statement comparing the pre SGW Chaos Emeralds and their power to the post SGW can be at best an allusion to or an implication due to the copyright issues that caused the term "Chaos Force" to be dropped in the first place. Even with this in mind, there is quite a bit to substantiate they are one and the same.
Throughout the post SGW timeline characters who remember the pre SGW timeline identify and utilize Chaos Emeralds and "Chaos Force" the same as they did in the old timeline. Even in Worlds Unite, Eggman and Sonic make no distinction that the emeralds or their power source have been altered when explaining Worlds Collide to Wily and Megaman. If anyone would recognize and identify a change in how they function it would be Sonic and Eggman. Sonic even references using his and Megaman's super forms and a supercharged chaos control "like last time" implying that the Chaos Force and "Chaos Force" are the same.
Even if one were to ignore all previous points, they must acknowledge that Sonic erasing the Chaos Force creates unrectifiable problems with the scaling of the verse.
Enerjak avatars are inarguably stronger than Super Sonic. Master Mogul, who has Dimitri's power, and Knuckles Enerjak are both shown to be far stronger than him, and this is substantiated by Dark Enerjak defeating an alternate Super Sonic.
Super Sonic is shown to not be a threat to Master Mogul, the only damage he inflicts is while Mogul is off guard, making it unimpressive. Even with the help of Hyper knuckles, the stronger Turbo Tails, and a chaos siphon, they are unable to harm let alone defeat Mogul. It is only because of the intervention of Locke and Sabre that Mogul is defeated.
Super Sonic is only able to fight against Knuckles Enerjak on equal ground because he is massively weakened. Logically, this would mean the weakened Enerjak scales to Sonic rather than Sonic scaling to Enerjak. Sonic's demeanor during the fight is not an indication of his superiority as he displayed the same cocky attitude while engaging Enerjak in base form. Additionally, Knuckles' decision to teleport Sonic away is not an admittance that he cannot defeat him, but rather a response to Sonic's pestering about his invulnerability. Unlike Mogul when he says he cannot defeat Sonic, Knuckles continues to attempt defeating him physically, Sonic's positive aura is also mostly irrelevant as A. Knuckles is weakened and B. other than "some progress" it doesn't result in anything.
Chaos Knuckles exhibits similar strength to Enerjak avatars, with Finitivus and Knuckles both comparing their power to Chaos Knuckles' and Shadow compares them indirectly. Gala-na additionally states Knuckles is potentially even stronger than Enerjak in issue 94.
It is worth noting that Athair and Merlin sending Turbo Tails to stop Chaos Knuckles in issue 96 does not mean he scales. Athair believes Tails can help Knuckles because they are friends and he is the chosen one, Merlin is worried Tails will die and only agrees when Athair tells him Knuckles is at his weakest.
The Ancient Walkers are placed above super forms as well. Not only are they one with the Chaos Forcegiving them a higher state of existence, but their power is often compared to Chaos Knuckleswith Locke and Sabre believing them to be stronger than Master Mogul. Mogul wounding the Ancient Walkers is also retconned to take place after he absorbs Chaos Knuckles' power rather than after he is freed from the Master Emerald. The Encyclopedia consistently places the event at this new time, making it an intentional change to the lore. With this change, the inconsistency of super forms scaling above the Ancient Walkers is removed.
Beyond all the previous characters is True Enerjak, who exists within the Chaos Force itself and was too powerful for the Ancient Walkers to defeat. He would also, of course, scale above his avatars by virtue of granting them their power.
Beyond even True Enerjak is Master Mogul during his second tenure. Instead of merely joining with the Chaos Force as Enerjak and the Ancient Walkers had, he managed to take full control of it, becoming the strongest being in the multiverse. Seeing as all previous characters utilize a portion of the Chaos Force and Mogul had complete control of it, he would naturally be superior to everyone.
Sonic erasing the Chaos Force would erroneously put him above all of these characters going against all the evidence that was just laid out. It would entail Sonic actually defeating True Enerjak directly, something even the Ancient Walkers couldn't do, even with assistance, which is just nonsensical. Accepting the scaling the comic provides requires one to reject this feat lest it creates the paradoxical situation wherein Sonic is both the strongest character in the verse and weaker than several others.
Possibly even more egregious than the problem created with scaling, Sonic erasing the Chaos Force is, without question, logistically impossible.
Edmund explains that only more chaos energy can overcome chaos energy, we see Sonic and Megaman passively resist the effects of the SGW, and since the Chaos Force is the source of all chaos energy, no amount of chaos energy should be able to overcome it as it will always be inferior to the force. Ergo Sonic is only able to use a portion of the Chaos Force's power, it makes no sense for him to be able to overcome and erase its existence. The idea of a character erasing a fundamental aspect of the multiverse using only a fraction of that aspect's power is laughable.
Now, I've seen it argued that since the Chaos Emeralds are described as being the physical manifestatio of the Chaos Force, they grant access to the entirety of its power. Just at face value, this is ludicrous, this interpretation, on top of being unfounded, would imply a single Chaos Emerald would grant access to the same power as all 7 or even 14 or any number. It makes any number beyond one become superfluous, which is proven very wrong throughout the comic. Firstly, seeing as both Sonic and Megaman use the emeralds to transform, Sonic flat out can't have access to all of the force's power as, even if the emeralds did allow for that, it's being split with Megaman. Additionally, the Chaos Force provides power for all the Chaos Emeralds in the multiverse, making it tens of thousands of times more powerful than the mere 7 used by Sonic, especially considering the great harmony would result in thousands of emeralds no longer requiring energy, returning it to the force. Finally, the Chaos Emeralds only possess potentially infinite energy, they cannot grant access to all of the Chaos Force's power and certainly not all at once, and since Sonic is not continuously being supplied with power from the emeralds, he would only have a finite amount to work with during the duration of his transformation.
Since Sonic utilizes the positive energy of the Chaos Emeralds, he would only be able to access, at most, half of the Chaos Force's full power. It could be argued that this positive negative distinction is exclusive to the Super Emeralds, which are distinctly not Chaos Emeralds, but since Sonic himself makes this distinctio in 184 after utilizing the Master Emerald, this does not appear to be the case.
Regardless, the Chaos Force is so far beyond the Chaos Emeralds, let alone Sonic, that even if one took Ian's statement as him saying it was destroyed, it's such a horrendous outlier that it cannot and should not be considered legitimate.
A few additional points:
It's been said that the new cosmology introduced in the post SGW timeline disproves the idea of the Chaos Force's continued existence, but like with most, this is not the case.
There simply isn't enough informatio known about the new cosmology to say it contradicts the Chaos Force's continued existence. Nothing is known about the Chaos Titans, they could be cosmic beings, but they could be regular Mobians, they could be the Ancient Walkers under a different name for copyright reasons for all we know, but the bottom line is we don't. The same goes for First Spark, we don't know anything about him, he could be connected to the "Chaos Force" or be completely separate, he could be the Source of All, but again, we don't know.
Ixis also does not prove that the Chaos Force and "Chaos Force" are different. He is stated to be an entity entirely separate from the "Chaos Force" that has existed since the beginning of time by Naugus. Since Naugus remembers both timelines, it's not unreasonable to assume that Ixis existed in the pre SGW timeline but was similarly sealed away. Seeing as Ixis is a cosmic entity apparently on the level of the "Chaos Force" it would make sense for it to also not be destroyed by the SGW. Additionally, if Ixis didn't exist pre SGW then Sonic would have had to have created him which is nonsense. Since matter can't be created or destroyed, for Ixis to be comparatively as strong as the "Chaos Force" its power would only be about half as strong as the Chaos Force which is very clearly not the case. Ixis existing pre SGW is partially conjecture, it is, however, conjecture that attempts to explain a potential inconsistency since there is no logical way Sonic could have created him.
I've also seen Dark Gaia mentioned with this "cosmology", however, from what I can tell, he isn't connected to the "Chaos Force" and even if he was, his millennia-long slumber would make his lack of appearance pre SGW moot.
It is constantly stated that Eggman attempted to rewrite reality and that Sonic's reality was destroyed. However, as I'm sure you're all aware, the Chaos Force exists outside of reality meaning the destruction of reality does not and should not mean the Chaos Force is destroyed or even affected.
My understanding is Executor is planning on revising the Source of All, and he has stated that Sonic is unable to destroy it. If it's accepted Sonic can't overcome the Source of All, it is ludicrous to accept him overcoming the Chaos Force, especially when all evidence shows he can't.
It is irresponsible to acknowledge The Source of All's lack of appearance in the post SGW timeline as being due to copyright issues and not do the same for the Chaos Force, especially when not doing so creates massive problems with consistency and lore.
In the end, one must either accept that this feat did not happen or is too inconsistent to be used.
Miscellaneous
Unless I misread the page, Abstract Existence type 3 isn't a thing. But from what I can tell, this is based on Eggman describing Sonic as the embodiment of chaos. This, however, is based on a misunderstanding of Eggman's words, he is referring to entropy, not chaos energy. This is evident when reading his entire explanation, he defines entropy calling it chaos, differentiates chaos energy, then states Sonic embodies chaos instead of chaos energy.
Sonic's durability coming from fighting the Egg Beater should be removed. The Egg Beater gets its AP from fighting Sonic not the other way around.
Undoing the SGW should be listed on pre SGW Sonic's page, not post.
Similarly, some post SGW abilities are given justification using pre SGW feats.
Post SGW Chaos' ability to control Mobius' oceans doesn't seem like it equates to his actual strength, I could be wrong about this as it's not something I looked into, just something I noticed.
A quote from the Sonic News Network shouldn't be used as evidence.
Enerjak did not attempt to de-atomize Super Sonic, the dialogue makes it very clear he meant to teleport him.
Is this the source for beings in the Chaos Force having omnipresence? Because that's not omnipresence.
Thank you for reading. Again, sorry about the length.
