Archie Sonic VS Joker (rematch)

[Peptocoptr27]

Every attack, and magic spell targets your mind, soul, information, and concept in Persona.

So it's kind of like in Digimon? You mean to tell me that Joker could remove the very concept of Sonic's speed via verse equalization and leave him immobile? It's hard to defend Sonic when I don't know much about Persona, but that sounds like a NLF, especially since Super Sonic has some level of conceptual manipulation himself, so that adds yet another reason why Joker can't permanantly remove Sonic's speed. In addition, Sonic also resists mind hax. Every aspect of the hax move you're using as a win condition for Ren is something Sonic has dealt with before in some way (except for the information part of it, but I suppose that's what carries the whole conceptual aspect, so it seems irrelevent).
Either way, you're gonna need to find another win condition for Joker if you want to convince anyone that this is a stomp. Based on what I've seen, it really seems Sonic stands a chance

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

You mean to tell me that Joker could remove the very concept of Sonic's speed via verse equalization and leave him immobile?

I have no idea where you got that from. Agility Bind nullifies your speed, that’s it, I’m not sure where you remotely got the rest of that from, considering Binds are Power Null chains.

It's hard to defend Sonic when I don't know much about Persona, but that sounds like a NLF, especially since Super Sonic has some level of conceptual manipulation himself, so that adds yet another reason why Joker can't permanantly remove Sonic's speed.

Never said any of this. Also, attacking ever aspect of someone’s existence is not a NLF, considering you had no problem pointing out he resists conceptual manipulation. As far as I’m concerned, he doesn’t resist information manipulation too, which is what Binds all simultaneously target.

Every aspect of the hax move you're using as a win condition for Ren is something Sonic has dealt with before in some way (except for the information part of it, but I suppose that's what carries the whole conceptual aspect, so it seems irrelevent).

This was never my wincon, so this is irrelevant.

Either way, you're gonna need to find another win condition for Joker if you want to convince anyone that this is a stomp. Based on what I've seen, it really seems Sonic stands a chance

There are plenty, Joker using Dekaja to nullify any buffs Sonic tries, High-Godly Regeneration, Fatehax that’s massively above Type 4 Acasuality, Attack Reflection, Deathax, etc. All these attacks are thought-based, and spawn on target.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I have no idea where you got that from. Agility Bind nullifies your speed, that’s it, I’m not sure where you remotely got the rest of that from, considering Binds are Power Null chains.

If all it does is nullify speed with power null chains, then it's not gonna stop Super Sonic at all. That's why I asked for clarification on how it works. You brought up conceptual stuff, so I had to read between the lines.

Never said any of this. Also, attacking ever aspect of someone’s existence is not a NLF, considering you had no problem pointing out he resists conceptual manipulation.

It's a NLF to assume it works against people who have shown resistances to it. I could have worded it better.

As far as I’m concerned, he doesn’t resist information manipulation too, which is what Binds all simultaneously target.

Information manipulation is just conceptual manipulation with extra steps. It's a verse specific thing. The distinction usually meaningless in a cross-over VS debate.

This was never my wincon, so this is irrelevant.

If it's the only thing that allows Joker to make up for the speed difference, then it kind of is, because Sonic's superior speed and adaptabillity makes him more likely to pull out a valid win con first.

There are plenty, Joker using Dekaja to nullify any buffs Sonic tries, High-Godly Regeneration, Fatehax that’s massively above Type 4 Acasuality, Attack Reflection, Deathax, etc. All these attacks are thought-based, and spawn on target.

Sonic has mid-high regen & type 8 immortality, a constant passive speed & power increase, rage power, instinctive reactions, invisibillity, afterimage creation, BFR, sealing, paralysis inducement, dimensional travel and much more. I was surprised to see Joker apparantly has no direct counter to any of these on his profile. With these powers, Sonic can keep up with Joker's regen and stat enhancements more easilly, while giving him more options to outmanuver Ren and either incapacite him or widen the distance between them. If he choses the former option, he can then BFR or seal Ren away. (It might be a temporary win, but it still counts) If he decides to do the ladder, he can use his MASSIVE range advantage to hit Joker with reality warping or atom manipulation. Joker might come back with high godly regen, but that's assuming Sonic decides to kill or erase him instead of just making him unable to fight, and Sonic can come back from death too. Sure, Ren has cosmic awareness which would allow him to see a reality warp coming, but if he's too far away to do anything about it and the AoE is too huge for him to dodge it, then what can he even do with that knowledge? Sonic has better stamina even in base form, and the gap gets infinitely more massive in his Super and Ultra forms. While the two seem about equal in intelligence, Sonic has far more experience, and has shown time and time again that he can adapt to new situations on the fly. Idk who has the AP advantage, but as long as Sonic has the speed advantage, it hardly matters.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If all it does is nullify speed with power null chains, then it's not gonna stop Super Sonic at all. That's why I asked for clarification on how it works. You brought up conceptual stuff, so I had to read between the lines.

You don’t bother explaining anything on why it doesn’t work. Sonic, off his profile, has no resistance to Power Null on a conceptual & information level, and he doesn’t even resist either.

Information manipulation is just conceptual manipulation with extra steps. It's a verse specific thing. The distinction usually meaningless in a cross-over VS debate.

That’s completely false, they’re two separate powers, with different requirements, and different applications.

Sonic has mid-high regen & type 8 immortality, a constant passive speed & power increase, rage power, instinctive reactions, invisibillity, afterimage creation, BFR, sealing, paralysis inducement, dimensional travel and much more. I was surprised to see Joker apparantly has no direct counter to any of these on his profile. With these powers, Sonic can keep up with Joker's regen and stat enhancements more easilly, while giving him more options to outmanuver Ren and either incapacite him or widen the distance between them. If he choses the former option, he can then BFR or seal Ren away. (It might be a temporary win, but it still counts) If he decides to do the ladder, he can use his MASSIVE range advantage to hit Joker with reality warping or atom manipulation. Joker might come back with high godly regen, but that's assuming Sonic decides to kill or erase him instead of just making him unable to fight, and Sonic can come back from death too. Sure, Ren has cosmic awareness which would allow him to see a reality warp coming, but if he's too far away to do anything about it and the AoE is too huge for him to dodge it, then what can he even do with that knowledge? Sonic has better stamina even in base form, and the gap gets infinitely more massive in his Super and Ultra forms. While the two seem about equal in intelligence, Sonic has far more experience, and has shown time and time again that he can adapt to new situations on the fly. Idk who has the AP advantage, but as long as Sonic has the speed advantage, it hardly matters.

All you’ve done is throw a whole bunch of powers that frankly:

1.) Prove you haven’t read Joker’s profile in the slightest.
2.) Don’t benefit him at all.

Sonic has mid-high regen

Negged by conceptual manipulation that he doesn’t resist, going off the profile.

type 8 immortality, a constant passive speed & power increase, rage power, instinctive reactions, invisibillity, afterimage creation, BFR, sealing, paralysis inducement, dimensional travel and much more.

Incapacitation by one of Joker’s various ailments that are superior to Low 1-C mindhax resistances, Dekaja nullifies any increase + -unda + Bind Skills, Rage Power means nothing considering he can inflict any majority of ailments to change that, invisibility isn’t a wincon, neither is afterimage creation, especially since he has star range AOEs, resists the rest of those.

with reality warping or atom manipulation. Joker might come back with high godly regen, but that's assuming Sonic decides to kill or erase him instead of just making him unable to fight, and Sonic can come back from death too. Sure, Ren has cosmic awareness which would allow him to see a reality warp coming, but if he's too far away to do anything about it and the AoE is too huge for him to dodge it, then what can he even do with that knowledge? Sonic has better stamina even in base form, and the gap gets infinitely more massive in his Super and Ultra forms. While the two seem about equal in intelligence, Sonic has far more experience, and has shown time and time again that he can adapt to new situations on the fly. Idk who has the AP advantage, but as long as Sonic has the speed advantage, it hardly matters.

Again, you really haven’t read Joker’s profile considering he resists Cognition, which has both Matter & Reality Warping. Stamina doesn’t matter with Invigorate and Regenerate, with Mental Wakefulness, which restores all of his stamina. Considering Ren can keep up with Goro, who can solo Palace’s filled with people like Kali, a warrior that exists before creation with hundreds of years experience, along with characters like Cu Chulaain, it doesn’t matter.

The rest was debunked. Joker fatehaxes and kills, which numerous Sonic supporters have agreed on earlier in the thread.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Bruh you can't be serious. One of the first things I did is explain how Sonic can recover from power negation targeting his speed via rings. It was on his profile just a few months ago, where the **** did it go? Speaking of things that aren't on profiles, resistance to matter manipulation and reality warping aren't on Joker's profile. I quadruple-checked, so don't criticize me for making shit up and ignoring crucial info for my own agenda. I wasn't even saying Sonic wins. I just wanted to know why everyone was saying it's a stomp. I know damn well that invisibility isn't a win condition. That wasn't the point in the slightest. Speed, stamina, experience, and range are all in Sonic's favor along with several abillities and win conditions that Joker isn't stated to resist or replicate his profile (with speed, range, and dimensional travel/BFR being the main reasons why I think Sonic could pull them off). But you know what? Maybe the profiles are ******. At least one thing clearly dissapeared from Sonic's, so I don't know what's going on and I seriously don't care enough to find out at this point.

 

[Arcker123]

What can sonic do to win?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

You don’t bother explaining anything on why it doesn’t work. Sonic, off his profile, has no resistance to Power Null on a conceptual & information level, and he doesn’t even resist either.

And that's another thing. You say that Joker's power null affects concepts. I ask "Does that mean Joker can erase the very concept of Sonic's speed?" You replied "No, where the hell did you get that idea?", and now you're right back to saying Sonic can't resist conceptual power null. Bruh. This is a waste of time even for VSBW standards

 

[Rikimarox2]

He has resistance to Cognition which includes Matter Manipulation and BFR my dude.

 

[Arcker123]

Seems like sonic gets hard countered, what even is his wincon?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

And that's another thing. You say that Joker's power null affects concepts. I ask "Does that mean Joker can erase the very concept of Sonic's speed?" You replied "No, where the hell did you get that idea?", and now you're right back to saying Sonic can't resist conceptual power null. Bruh. This is a waste of time even for VSBW standards

Are you intentionally misinterpreting what I’m saying? I’m saying his speed is nullified on a conceptual level, not that it’s erased, you continue to shove words in my mouth then be confused why things don’t make sense.

Sonic has no resistance to it off the profile.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Speaking of things that aren't on profiles, resistance to matter manipulation and reality warping aren't on Joker's profile. I quadruple-checked, so don't criticize me for making shit up and ignoring crucial info for my own agenda.

Again, you really haven’t read Joker’s profile considering he resists Cognition, which has both Matter & Reality Warping.

 

[Garchomp777]

Sonic doesn't resist conceptual ice manipulation. All joker needs to do is use bufu and sonic is frozen, then the victory screen for him appears

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Well, the revisions for Joker were accepted, so it's gonna be a stomp either way. So I'm gonna go request for this thread to be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

I will do so then.