Arceus Vs Sora: Smurf Edition

[TheKingStrategist13]

Porygon (Pokémon)

m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Porygon's existence is fundamentally made out of type 2 information and self-evidently would get deleted by the creation trio let alone arceus. So type 2 info is fundamentally below anything conceptual in pokemon.

You missed this page, chief

 

[Sniper670]

Can someone explain to me who asked KH supporters to give low 1C to everything?

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

We've never seen what Arceus would do in character, so there's absolutely no reason to assume he wouldn't use it couple that with the various precogs, vision and his personal Cosmic Awareness and I see why he wouldn't go for the W

Legends Arceus exists.

I'll leave the actual arguments to Bob once again.

 

[Ikelaggan]

You missed this page, chief

Can turn into data and has type 2 inorganic, what's your point?

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Can someone explain to me who asked KH supporters to give low 1C to everything?

My oh my, such a way to conduct yourself.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Can turn into data and has type 2 inorganic, what's your point?

My point is you used Bulbapedia when we have a actual page accepted on the wiki.

 

[Sniper670]

Legends Arceus exists.

I'll leave the actual arguments to Bob once again.

He was testing the player so no, it's not in character

That human was the chosen one

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

He was testing the player so no, it's not in character

That human was the chosen one

We have nothing else to go off of beyond a few Manga panels I believe. It's rather dubious to say that it starts off with x hax when we only see it fight a certain way, regardless of if it was holding back or not.

 

[Everything12]

Legends Arceus exists.

I'll leave the actual arguments to Bob once again.

I mean Legends: Arceus can be best summed up as Arceus getting someone else to solve it's (and the rest of creations) problems. Until they were proven worthy to meet them, then they tested them again to see if they were worthy of their avatar.

We have nothing else to go off of beyond a few Manga panels I believe. It's rather dubious to say that it starts off with x hax when we only see it fight a certain way, regardless of if it was holding back or not.

The manga was also it testing humans to see if they were worthy.

 

[Sniper670]

Can turn into data and has type 2 inorganic, what's your point?

Mirage Mewtwo and all Mirage Pokémon are info type 2 or they should be. There's information manipulation on his page, but the type has not been added, probably outdated

 

[Sniper670]

We've never seen what Arceus would do if he was at full power and he wanted to fight a human being, so anything goes here

 

[Smashtwig]

Please read Sora's page.

First time?

 

[Bobsican]

Porygon (Pokémon)

m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Porygon's existence is fundamentally made out of type 2 information and self-evidently would get deleted by the creation trio let alone arceus. So type 2 info is fundamentally below anything conceptual in pokemon.

Mirage Mewtwo and all Mirage Pokémon are info type 2 or they should be. There's information manipulation on his page, but the type has not been added, probably outdated

3D information, which is multiple qualitative infinities below a 5D info hax resistance.

If only the attack will hit because "Omnipotent"

"Omnipotent"

You missed

Which has no feats on working on trapping stuff, let alone one that works on characters that can teleport, especially when there's no move that inflicts that in Conquest in the first place.

We've never seen what Arceus would do in character, so there's absolutely no reason to assume he wouldn't use it couple that with the various precogs, vision and his personal Cosmic Awareness and I see why he wouldn't go for the W

We've never seen what Arceus would do if he was at full power and he wanted to fight a human being, so anything goes here

Arceus Cosmic Awareness means he's seen it all. There's absolutely no reason to believe he wouldn't spam it as quickly as he could

Arceus was at most of his power here and clearly bloodlusted to humanity, and all he did even while still having most of the plates (And thus most moves and whatever, notably including Destiny Bond out of still having the Spooky Plate) was just spamming strong offensive attacks, no fancy hax or anything.

Arceus may know a lot and all, but it's clear his personality doesn't make the most optimal use of that in the first place, which at worst is the best lead of details we have on what Arceus realistically does, anything further from that is easily too generous.

That's not 5D. Sora is 3D. Manipulating the fate of a 3D character is not 5D. Show me where it controlled the fate of a 5D being. Then it becomes 5D

There's nothing that makes Soras heart 5D. 5D only applies to AP

Deal with it, just as low 1C Arceus is dealing with it

AFAIK that's not the only way for a hax to be a smurf one, as I've already said, not only it has a reach above baseline Low 1-C, the power was granted by a Low 1-C character in the first place, which could also directly disrupt true KH from deleting the cosmology

Low 1C Ap that Arceus has now?

If it's 5D AP Sora's abilities would still work here as they allowed him to withstand Low 1-C attacks as said before.

No, you're yet to prove how all Soras hax is 5D as the only thing accepted was that the cosmology size was 5D

What makes these characters low 1C beyond Ap and durability

I'm waiting for you to explain how Sora has 5D hax beyond AP

3D sora lol

It works on Low 1-Cs, Drive Form Sora is on the level of KH3D Sora, who has his abilities work on Low 1-Cs.

And I'll ask why you're giving things that was not accepted in CRT

May you be more specific?

Arceus is low 1C and overwatches all creation so yes, it scales

Only because he embodies it, the KH cosmology is bound to, well, true KH, which in itself is made of all hearts in the setting, meaning that Arceus would need type 2 info manip on a 5D scale here as well for that to work, so no.

And what makes the Heart 5D for all characters

All hearts are what make up Kingdom Hearts, which in itself makes the whole cosmology, hearts are even considered to be underrated on their capabilities in relation to that fact, plus a part of a 5-D thing is still a 5-D thing. Some characters in the setting could even make a KH by just compiling together a ton of hearts.

ES makes a character fast to the point of appearing almost invisible. And it always goes first, regardless of how fast the opponent is

Being so fast it's difficult to perceive isn't that impressive when Sora has also done the same, also game mechanics.

 

[Ego]

Arceus is 5D again now

 

[Sniper670]

3D information, which is multiple qualitative infinities below a 5D info hax resistance.

Sora is 3D information

Which has no feats on working on trapping stuff, let alone one that works on characters that can teleport, especially when there's no move that inflicts that in Conquest in the first place.

It's hax, it will miss. He's not tanking anything

And there's nothing in KH that doesn't exist in Pokémon. It will miss

Arceus was at most of his power here and clearly bloodlusted to humanity, and all he did even while still having most of the plates (And thus most moves and whatever, notably including Destiny Bond out of still having the Spooky Plate) was just spamming strong offensive attacks, no fancy hax or anything.

He was not. He's never seriously fought anything at full power
There's nothing in character that Arceus would do that we know of.

Arceus may know a lot and all, but it's clear his personality doesn't make the most optimal use of that in the first place, which at worst is the best lead of details we have on what Arceus realistically does, anything further from that is easily too generous.

The Game depiction?

He's testing the player. He's not testing Sora here so you don't have a say in what he can't do

AFAIK that's not the only way for a hax to be a smurf one, as I've already said, not only it has a reach above baseline Low 1-C, the power was granted by a Low 1-C character in the first place, which could also directly disrupt true KH from deleting the cosmology

Power granted by low 1C character

No. The Plates are also the source of all things, including 5D realm, it don't scale. There's nothing that implies that everything they do is 5D unless that specific has can work on a 5F structure or 5D being. And then it scales

God I can't explain how many things this logic will break if we decided everything that happens in KH works on 5D.

If it's 5D AP Sora's abilities would still work here as they allowed him to withstand Low 1-C attacks as said before.

The cosmology is low 1C yes. Which attacks are low 1C are the only attacks that will scale

Attacks that can affect low 1C stuff

It works on Low 1-Cs, Drive Form Sora is on the level of KH3D Sora, who has his abilities work on Low 1-Cs

And who gave him low 1C hax.

No one

May you be more specific?

Why is every hax of Sora low 1C here?

Only because he embodies it, the KH cosmology is bound to, well, true KH, which in itself is made of all hearts in the setting, meaning that Arceus would need type 2 info manip on a 5D scale here as well for that to work, so no.

What information
Data Scape is just 3D and that's where information even comes from

By your logic information in Pokémon will be 5D because it's coming from a 5D source

All hearts are what make up Kingdom Hearts, which in itself makes the whole cosmology, hearts are even considered to be underrated on their capabilities in relation to that fact, plus a part of a 5-D thing is still a 5-D thing. Some characters in the setting could even make a KH by just compiling together a ton of hearts.

It's not. A part of Arceus ≠ 5D.

Arceus is 5D now, we don't scale anything to 5D and you certainly can't

Being so fast it's difficult to perceive isn't that impressive when Sora has also done the same, also game mechanics.

Cool. Match starts at speed equalizes.

The difference in speed between normal attacks and ES is that to almost invisibility

Arceus >> Sora if they decided to fight

 

[Lynieryz]

Arceus FRA

 

[Smashtwig]

Isn’t Arceus Omniscientient? From that and probably just rewriting his brain or smth i’m sure it could just… make itself more skilled than Sora

 

[Smashtwig]

I mean Legends: Arceus can be best summed up as Arceus getting someone else to solve it's (and the rest of creations) problems. Until they were proven worthy to meet them, then they tested them again to see if they were worthy of their avatar.

Nah the player just ran Arceus’s fade for sure, no balms needed

welcome to EARTH

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Not a KH expert, not even a fan but just because Pokemon can't get 5D hax doesn't mean KH can't either.

Also characters can be 3D and have higher D hax, it happens all the time so if KH has proof and got the hax accepted as 5D then you guys either debunk that or cope with it.

Also sora is only the most skilled because Dante and Kratos aren't allowed

 

[Robo432343]

whose winning so far

 

[Ego]

whose winning so far

Sora as always smh

 

[Robo432343]

wait if sora is 5d then why isnt low 1-c in his ap section

 

[Bobsican]

The page is also pending updates.

If this isn't a stomp even with the recent Arceus upgrades I'll reply to the other stuff later.

 

[Ikelaggan]

3D information, which is multiple qualitative infinities below a 5D info hax resistance.

By that logic fodder no feat heartless might aswell be 5D in physiology since hearts are part of the cosmology of KH, you can't divide chunks of infinity into below infinity if your part of the infinity.

Which has no feats on working on trapping stuff, let alone one that works on characters that can teleport, especially when there's no move that inflicts that in Conquest in the first place.

Literally the move list you linked has rock tomb "a entrapment move" and Teleport.

 

[Bobsican]

By that logic fodder no feat heartless might aswell be 5D in physiology since hearts are part of the cosmology of KH, you can't divide chunks of infinity into below infinity if your part of the infinity.

The thing is that their hax can affect even Low 1-Cs with a resistance to their stuff long-term.

Literally the move list you linked has rock tomb "a entrapment move" and Teleport.

Teleport isn't even a offensive move, it does what its name says on the user, just some movement utility.
By trapping I mean this

His existence is defined by his heart, so no, it's 5-D as much as KH is.

It's hax, it will miss. He's not tanking anything

And there's nothing in KH that doesn't exist in Pokémon. It will miss

Magnega isn't really comparable to magnet stuff in Pokémon (closest thing is Magnet Rise), Magnega is a magical spell, it isn't made from electricity per-say, and most notably it's considered non-elemental in KH when there's an element for electricity in the whole series.

He was not. He's never seriously fought anything at full power
There's nothing in character that Arceus would do that we know of.

The Game depiction?

He's testing the player. He's not testing Sora here so you don't have a say in what he can't do

If anything this just proves that Arceus just holds back in character, the fact we have to headcanon the most optimized options when Arceus doesn't even do that in character is inappropiate to say the least.

Power granted by low 1C character

No. The Plates are also the source of all things, including 5D realm, it don't scale. There's nothing that implies that everything they do is 5D unless that specific has can work on a 5F structure or 5D being. And then it scales

God I can't explain how many things this logic will break if we decided everything that happens in KH works on 5D.

KH itself is a 5-D thing that sustains the whole cosmology, disrupting it with hax would indeed prove this kind of abilities work on that level.

The cosmology is low 1C yes. Which attacks are low 1C are the only attacks that will scale

Attacks that can affect low 1C stuff

What information
Data Scape is just 3D and that's where information even comes from

By your logic information in Pokémon will be 5D because it's coming from a 5D source

Affecting a Low 1-C character in itself shows the potency of the hax, especially as their heart is a 5D thing out of being part of what makes up all existence, it's not like in other verses where there's just a concept or two that make up everything per-say, as in KH there's an individual concept for each individual, and all of them together in fact make up the 5D thing directly as said before.

The Datascape is a 5D structure as it directly parallels the main cosmology, down to even including another Low 1-C structure in itself, a copy of the Realm of Darkness.

Also, all of Sora's attacks are Low 1-C while in a Drive Form...

And who gave him low 1C hax.

No one

Why is every hax of Sora low 1C here?

The criteria for smurf hax doesn't inherently requires that it comes from another character, not only do we see that Sora's abilities still work as normal against Low 1-C, which is the key thing Arceus lacks, opponents truly on the same level as it to scale hax like this at all, for example, Dream Eaters (by scaling from KH3D Sora, which is comparable to DF KHII Sora), we even have stuff like the fate manip explicitly reaching outside the Low 1-C structure to another one, as said before.

It's not. A part of Arceus ≠ 5D.

Arceus is 5D now, we don't scale anything to 5D and you certainly can't

May you explain? I think I've elaborated quite well how KH's situation is different from Pokémon's on this regard.

Cool. Match starts at speed equalizes.

The difference in speed between normal attacks and ES is that to almost invisibility

Arceus >> Sora if they decided to fight

Again, not only is this an unquantificable speed amp, the fact Sora could deal with sudden speedy attacks that similarly also reach invisibility leads me to think Sora can take care of this, especially with his skill, you've even already conceded on most of Arceus' skill being useless here out of its different physiology compared to what it knows.

Isn’t Arceus Omniscientient? From that and probably just rewriting his brain or smth i’m sure it could just… make itself more skilled than Sora

Arceus made its avatar the way it is to begin with, I don't think it'd be remotely in characterto modify it like that, and Sora's powers have an unconventional Power Mimicry resistance as the Keyblade is sentient and won't just allow itself to be used by anyone whatsoever, let alone how a Keyblade directly comes from the user's heart, and so that'd require stuff like the type 2 info manip that Arceus lacks.

 

[Smashtwig]

Sora's powers have an unconventional Power Mimicry resistance as the Keyblade is sentient and won't just allow itself to be used by anyone whatsoever, let alone how a Keyblade directly comes from the user's heart, and so that'd require stuff like the type 2 info manip that Arceus lacks.

You don't need to mimic someone to become more skilled though? Like, I don't need to copy Mike Tyson specifically to become a more skilled boxer than he is

 

[Bobsican]

Well, I said that assuming you were talking about Sora regarding the "rewriting his brain or smth i’m sure it could just… make itself more skilled than Sora", Power Mimicry just came to mind as a way to potentially argue for that here, so I wanted to debunk that.

 

[Sniper670]

The thing is that their hax can affect even Low 1-Cs with a resistance to their stuff long-term.

The only low 1C in the cosmology is the Ocean in between and anything that can affect it.

If it has not shown to affect the entire cosmology, it's not 5D

Teleport isn't even a offensive move, it does what its name says on the user, just some movement utility.
By trapping I mean this

His existence is defined by his heart, so no, it's 5-D as much as KH is.

Ocean in between and attacks that can affect the entire KH is 5D, if it hasn't shown to affect the KH, it don't scale

Magnega isn't really comparable to magnet stuff in Pokémon (closest thing is Magnet Rise), Magnega is a magical spell, it isn't made from electricity per-say, and most notably it's considered non-elemental in KH when there's an element for electricity in the whole series.



If anything this just proves that Arceus just holds back in character, the fact we have to headcanon the most optimized options when Arceus doesn't even do that in character is inappropiate to say the least.

Because Arceus would have already seen this match multiple times due to CA. He's going to use the most optimal methods to win. Logical.

KH itself is a 5-D thing that sustains the whole cosmology, disrupting it with hax would indeed prove this kind of abilities work on that level.

I read the cosmology blog. Anything that is affecting the ocean in between or the entire cosmology is 5D.

I don't know where you got the idea that everyone is low 1C

Arceus didn't get a pass. You aren't

Affecting a Low 1-C character in itself shows the potency of the hax, especially as their heart is a 5D thing out of being part of what makes up all existence, it's not like in other verses where there's just a concept or two that make up everything per-say, as in KH there's an individual concept for each individual, and all of them together in fact make up the 5D thing directly as said before.

Why is their heart 5D?

What I saw from the blog us ocean in between is 5D.

If you continue this line of thinking I'd have to make a crt to look into it

The Datascape is a 5D structure as it directly parallels the main cosmology, down to even including another Low 1-C structure in itself, a copy of the Realm of Darkness.

So multiple.

Pokémon has millions of it as every game us it's own cosmology. Big deal.

Also, all of Sora's attacks are Low 1-C while in a Drive Form...

Because all his attacks have shown to affect the entire cosmology and the Ocean in between? Interdimensional range

The criteria for smurf hax doesn't inherently requires that it comes from another character, not only do we see that Sora's abilities still work as normal against Low 1-C, which is the key thing Arceus lacks, opponents truly on the same level as it to scale hax like this at all, for example, Dream Eaters (by scaling from KH3D Sora, which is comparable to DF KHII Sora), we even have stuff like the fate manip explicitly reaching outside the Low 1-C structure to another one, as said before.

KH is low 1C by the cosmology being extremely big.

Besides that everyone is 3D and affecting the fate of a 3D character is not 5D

Again, not only is this an unquantificable speed amp, the fact Sora could deal with sudden speedy attacks that similarly also reach invisibility leads me to think Sora can take care of this, especially with his skill, you've even already conceded on most of Arceus' skill being useless here out of its different physiology compared to what it knows.

Arceus could simply take another form if he wanted. It's not as if he doesn't have a thousand armed formed. You're probably fighting his super nerfed form anyway

It still doesn't change the various precognition and ESP that comes about in the series. Not to talk of the various countermeasures. Like passive speed amp on top of speed blitzing Sora with ES, add that to invisibility and you have Sora in a bind

Arceus made its avatar the way it is to begin with, I don't think it'd be remotely in characterto modify it like that, and Sora's powers have an unconventional Power Mimicry resistance as the Keyblade is sentient and won't just allow itself to be used by anyone whatsoever, let alone how a Keyblade directly comes from the user's heart, and so that'd require stuff like the type 2 info manip that Arceus lacks.

Big deal. 0 layers to it. "Omnipotent".

Before linking, he's impossible to beat. After linking this was its ability: Omnipotent:
--Always STAB Bonus for any attack (Protean without type change, basically)
--Doubles STAB Bonus (Adaptability)
--Doubles enemy PP use (Pressure)
--Unaffected by stat debuffs (Clear Body)
--Unaffected by status conditions (Pure Body)
--Recovers HP every turn (Free Leftovers)
--It is unaffected by Hazards
--Pierces through barriers (infiltrator)
--Normal moves affect Ghost-Types (Scrappy)
--Judgment is Normal-Type but is always super-effective. (The only type that would have been immune is Ghost but as stated above...)
--Always does full damage to every type.
--Moves ignore/bypass type/abilities that will hinder his moves. (Resistance Negation)

Now you understand the predicament Sora would be in if he decided to fight here. And any attempts by Sora to boost his stats will not change the fact as "Opportunist" copies any stat changes opponent makes for themselves. So the gap will only get wider until Arceus one shots

 

[Bobsican]

The only low 1C in the cosmology is the Ocean in between and anything that can affect it.

As implied before, there's also the Realm of Darkness, which parallels the Ocean Between, and of course the Datascape having a notably similar copy of the cosmology inside of it, including a copy of the Ocean Between and the Realm of Darkness, as said before..

Affecting KH also falls as Low 1-C as it directly sustains the cosmology, and so by altering it the whole cosmology also is disrupted.

If it has not shown to affect the entire cosmology, it's not 5D

Ocean in between and attacks that can affect the entire KH is 5D, if it hasn't shown to affect the KH, it don't scale

Why is their heart 5D?

What I saw from the blog us ocean in between is 5D.

If you continue this line of thinking I'd have to make a crt to look into it

I may as well bring up something that I had in mind...

So, I've already brought up multiple times how the fate manip allowed Sora to exit the Realm of Darkness, which is a Low 1-C space parallel to the main Low 1-C one (the Ocean Between), what's of note is that as it's explained that the power came from Kairi's heart, by extension Sora should upscale as he's generally considered stronger than her, even as both are Keyblade wielders, as the power of a Keyblade comes from the user's heart as also mentioned multiple times before, and so his hax indeed upscales to Low 1-C.

Because Arceus would have already seen this match multiple times due to CA. He's going to use the most optimal methods to win. Logical.

And the scan given for his CA in the page is explicit on Arceus just watching the present, not implying he already did so from the start to the end, if you're going to bring up Alakazam's precog allowing him to see Sora's life from birth to death, again, Arceus can't read Sora's memory as that's directly a part of his heart, and he lacks the type 2 info manip to do so, let alone the ability originally relying on just mindhax, and so it'd be a bit assumptive to claim Arceus can "enhance" it.

I read the cosmology blog. Anything that is affecting the ocean in between or the entire cosmology is 5D.

I don't know where you got the idea that everyone is low 1C

Arceus didn't get a pass. You aren't

Arceus has a more limited and thus overall worse context for this kind of claims than KH, simple as that.

So multiple.

Pokémon has millions of it as every game us it's own cosmology. Big deal.

Because all his attacks have shown to affect the entire cosmology and the Ocean in between? Interdimensional range

I've already gone on Sora's wincon not being just truly killing Arceus per-say, but rather just do the exact same thing as in the Giratina thread and just kill the avatar, thus preventing Arceus from doing much in a combat applicable timeframe.

KH is low 1C by the cosmology being extremely big.

Besides that everyone is 3D and affecting the fate of a 3D character is not 5D

Such hax reaching from a Low 1-C structure to another in itself shows that the ability is 5-D.

Arceus could simply take another form if he wanted. It's not as if he doesn't have a thousand armed formed. You're probably fighting his super nerfed form anyway

It still doesn't change the various precognition and ESP that comes about in the series. Not to talk of the various countermeasures. Like passive speed amp on top of speed blitzing Sora with ES, add that to invisibility and you have Sora in a bind

Big deal. 0 layers to it. "Omnipotent".

Before linking, he's impossible to beat. After linking this was its ability: Omnipotent:
--Always STAB Bonus for any attack (Protean without type change, basically)
--Doubles STAB Bonus (Adaptability)
--Doubles enemy PP use (Pressure)
--Unaffected by stat debuffs (Clear Body)
--Unaffected by status conditions (Pure Body)
--Recovers HP every turn (Free Leftovers)
--It is unaffected by Hazards
--Pierces through barriers (infiltrator)
--Normal moves affect Ghost-Types (Scrappy)
--Judgment is Normal-Type but is always super-effective. (The only type that would have been immune is Ghost but as stated above...)
--Always does full damage to every type.
--Moves ignore/bypass type/abilities that will hinder his moves. (Resistance Negation)

Now you understand the predicament Sora would be in if he decided to fight here. And any attempts by Sora to boost his stats will not change the fact as "Opportunist" copies any stat changes opponent makes for themselves. So the gap will only get wider until Arceus one shots

Taking another form would just limit its capabilities, and even then that's not in character really.

Oh, if we're going to composite abilities I may as well bring up Contrary, Stall and Truant, which overall backfire epically, you can't really cherry-pick here without basically doing too much headcanon, especially with what we do know of Arceus' character, also, no abilities suppress nor "copy" user-specific transformations (Battle Bond, Megas, Zero to Hero, etc), which Drive Forms are, so uh... yeah.

Sora has no elemental weaknesses nor has a Type, so Judgment would always hit neutrally, either way, Sora has already dealt with similar stuff.

I'm sure I've also already gone on that as Sora is not a Pokémon, stuff that isn't equalizable to be within Pokémon types (Arceus' plates) can very well affect him as normal, so the linking stuff is unecessary here for Sora to affect Arceus.

May you be more specific on what kinds of barriers Omnipotent ignores? I can't find moves of that sort in Conquest to begin with.

 

[Sniper670]

As implied before, there's also the Realm of Darkness, which parallels the Ocean Between, and of course the Datascape having a notably similar copy of the cosmology inside of it, including a copy of the Ocean Between and the Realm of Darkness, as said before..

What purpose would this serve

Affecting KH also falls as Low 1-C as it directly sustains the cosmology, and so by altering it the whole cosmology also is disrupted.

Affecting the entire cosmology is 5D.

List the attacks that can affect the low 1C structure

I'll repeat, drawing power from a low 1C source is not low 1C unless there's proof of that. I'll lead you back to Arceus. And in KH it's just size, so you'll need to provide an explanation on why it scales here

I may as well bring up something that I had in mind...

So, I've already brought up multiple times how the fate manip allowed Sora to exit the Realm of Darkness, which is a Low 1-C space parallel to the main Low 1-C one (the Ocean Between), what's of note is that as it's explained that the power came from Kairi's heart, by extension Sora should upscale as he's generally considered stronger than her, even as both are Keyblade wielders, as the power of a Keyblade comes from the user's heart as also mentioned multiple times before, and so his hax indeed upscales to Low 1-C.

Fate manipulation of a 3D character has never been 5D.

Ans no, there's no where it's implied that everyone's heart is 5D

Again, where in that low 1C thread did they accept anything beyond the cosmology being big which only attacks shown to be able to affect the low 1C structure scales. Not the entire lasagna

And sora has only interdimensional range.

Make a crt if you want to change it.

And the scan given for his CA in the page is explicit on Arceus just watching the present, not implying he already did so from the start to the end, if you're going to bring up Alakazam's precog allowing him to see Sora's life from birth to death, again, Arceus can't read Sora's memory as that's directly a part of his heart, and he lacks the type 2 info manip to do so, let alone the ability originally relying on just mindhax, and so it'd be a bit assumptive to claim Arceus can "enhance" it.

Arceus watches everyone within the cosmology.

Present may be the past or future depending on who views it and at what time.

So you cannot objectively declare that it's the present

Watching over the cosmology applies to wherever humans and Pokémon are, and they exist in the past present and future

Arceus has a more limited and thus overall worse context for this kind of claims than KH, simple as that.

It doesn't. The plates are the source of everything that he uses. Nothing scales to 5D.

KH big. What does it have to do with Sora having every hax being 5D with 0 feats for it

I've already gone on Sora's wincon not being just truly killing Arceus per-say, but rather just do the exact same thing as in the Giratina thread and just kill the avatar, thus preventing Arceus from doing much in a combat applicable timeframe.

Cannot kill the Avatar, let alone negating anything as the Heart is 6D. You cannot negate immortality type 9 because The OS created Arceus directly from NEP 2 (Primordial Chaos), devoid of all aspects of existence.

1. Dies from staring at Arceus
2. Destiny Bond a fodder to sora. Kill that fodder and sora dies
3. Sora landing a hit? Massive speed amp plus passive speed amp, plus Omnipotent, precog and having already watched the match due to CA.
4. Arceus is just one shooting here with various stat amps and simply copying Sora if he tries to amp his stats.

Such hax reaching from a Low 1-C structure to another in itself shows that the ability is 5-D.

It's not. That's range.

Taking another form would just limit its capabilities, and even then that's not in character really.

Define "in character".
1. Arceus is at full power
2. He's not testing Sora
3. He's seen the match

So I don't know why Arceus wouldn't go for the most optimal wincon

Oh, if we're going to composite abilities I may as well bring up Contrary, Stall and Truant, which overall backfire epically, you can't really cherry-pick here without basically doing too much headcanon, especially with what we do know of Arceus' character, also, no abilities suppress nor "copy" user-specific transformations (Battle Bond, Megas, Zero to Hero, etc), which Drive Forms are, so uh... yeah.

Good. Because all passives are activated and stay that way. He can simply pick and choose what to activate. In the anime it's mentioned a Pokémon special ability can be activated or they can choose not to. Explains why abilities aren't even passives after a battle. Lol

Which is also why Arceus can simply ignore types that give immunity to status effect if he wanted to, and he doesn't do that in combat in PLA

So yes, I don't see Sora winning here with everything Arceus has.

Transform does.

Humans literally tried to copy God with Silvally.

Moves can ignore abilities, like Mold Breaker and some can negate them

They're all there.

Sora has no elemental weaknesses nor has a Type, so Judgment would always hit neutrally, either way, Sora has already dealt with similar stuff.

Cool. So are Typeless Pokémon and humans and they're all getting negged.

I'm sure I've also already gone on that as Sora is not a Pokémon, stuff that isn't equalizable to be within Pokémon types (Arceus' plates) can very well affect him as normal, so the linking stuff is unecessary here for Sora to affect Arceus.

Read above. Sora is nothing special here

May you be more specific on what kinds of barriers Omnipotent ignores? I can't find moves of that sort in Conquest to begin with.

Arceus. It applies to all moves as Ransei is also part of the Pokémon cosmology at large.

And barriers are anything from simple protection barriers, to reflective barriers, to attack reduction barriers

Ignoring that, there's even unseen fist which ignores all barriers

 

[Bobsican]

What purpose would this serve

Clarify potential misconceptions

Affecting the entire cosmology is 5D.

List the attacks that can affect the low 1C structure

I'll repeat, drawing power from a low 1C source is not low 1C unless there's proof of that. I'll lead you back to Arceus. And in KH it's just size, so you'll need to provide an explanation on why it scales here

I've made a CRT to clarify the 5-D stuff to avoid going back and forth, please debunk the arguments over there if you disagree on Sora being a smurf to begin with, until then it's valid here.

Fate manipulation of a 3D character has never been 5D.

It's not the only way to qualify, but that's expanded above.

Ans no, there's no where it's implied that everyone's heart is 5D

Surprisingly, there is, KH is wack, see the stuff above.

Again, where in that low 1C thread did they accept anything beyond the cosmology being big which only attacks shown to be able to affect the low 1C structure scales. Not the entire lasagna

Their hax already scaled to tier 2, the Low 1-C stuff just recontextualizes this to tier 1.

And sora has only interdimensional range.

Make a crt if you want to change it.

I guess there's the CRT above just for that, the fate manip blatantly has straight up above baseline Low 1-C range at the very least.

Arceus watches everyone within the cosmology.

Present may be the past or future depending on who views it and at what time.

So you cannot objectively declare that it's the present

Watching over the cosmology applies to wherever humans and Pokémon are, and they exist in the past present and future

And you can neither declare objectively that Arceus instead watches across all that has happened in the past and future already, Arceus required Ash to yell at him to remind him of the time travel they did so he'd calm down by getting back the Jewel of Life, clearly debunking a claim as outlandish as that.

It doesn't. The plates are the source of everything that he uses. Nothing scales to 5D.

KH big. What does it have to do with Sora having every hax being 5D with 0 feats for it

See the CRT linked above, there's way more context, feats and characters that actually trade blows between each other, unlike Arceus on this regard.

Cannot kill the Avatar, let alone negating anything as the Heart is 6D. You cannot negate immortality type 9 because The OS created Arceus directly from NEP 2 (Primordial Chaos), devoid of all aspects of existence.

Arceus doesn't have type 3 Acausality and so isn't going to spam avatars, however, what can the Heart do without an avatar?

1. Dies from staring at Arceus

Resists

2. Destiny Bond a fodder to sora. Kill that fodder and sora dies

Oh yes, fate manip on a 3D scale for a character that has passive fate manip on a 5D scale, no.

3. Sora landing a hit? Massive speed amp plus passive speed amp, plus Omnipotent, precog and having already watched the match due to CA.

Stitch can immobilize him by just using his ukelele while also healing Sora, I'm not joking.

4. Arceus is just one shooting here with various stat amps and simply copying Sora if he tries to amp his stats.

Transform does.

Humans literally tried to copy God with Silvally.

Read above. Sora is nothing special here

Sora's stat amps aren't copiable by anything that is already in Pokémon, closest thing is Transform, which wouldn't work here as Sora's powers as said before are more difficult to copy in relation anything Pokémon has displayed (let alone smurfery), Sora also has Low 1-C Durability even in base out of Second Chance and Once More.

Silvally is also a worse Arceus in every single aspect that was manually made in a non-combat applicable timeframe like Mewtwo, IDK what you're on.

It's not. That's range.

Okay, please complain in the CRT linked above, until then please accept all that has been brought up here to indeed be 5D.

Define "in character".
1. Arceus is at full power
2. He's not testing Sora
3. He's seen the match

So I don't know why Arceus wouldn't go for the most optimal wincon

1: Doesn't change much as far what he has displayed in-character, an enraged Arceus with most of his powers still just spammed strong attacks over using fancy hax.

2: I guess this is the only valid point, but doesn't change much per the above.

3: Also no as far I've argued against his character being like that in relation to what he has done.

Arceus is just a character that holds back usually, you don't need to think it too much given what has been displayed in the first place.

Good. Because all passives are activated and stay that way. He can simply pick and choose what to activate. In the anime it's mentioned a Pokémon special ability can be activated or they can choose not to. Explains why abilities aren't even passives after a battle. Lol

Which is also why Arceus can simply ignore types that give immunity to status effect if he wanted to, and he doesn't do that in combat in PLA

So yes, I don't see Sora winning here with everything Arceus has.

Moves can ignore abilities, like Mold Breaker and some can negate them

They're all there.

Given that he doesn't just precog the whole battle and leads with a wincon, Arceus at best is just going to be guessing and giving Sora a wide timeframe to beat him, but more realistically it's just going to spam attacks either way for similar results.

Actually, the abilities and transformations I mentioned (Battle Bond, Zero to Hero, Megas) are entirely immune to any suppressing effects in the series AFAIK, even including Neutralizing Gas.

Cool. So are Typeless Pokémon and humans and they're all getting negged.

Citation please? There's no typeless Pokémon naturally in the first place, and there's the only inherently typeless offensive move, Struggle, ignoring Wonder Guard (it's labeled as a Normal move out of game mechanics, it isn't even enhanced by stuff that'd enhance Normal type moves such as the Normal Gem).

Humans in Pokémon are also generally really weak and wouldn't even scratch Arceus anyways, so that's not an argument.

Arceus. It applies to all moves as Ransei is also part of the Pokémon cosmology at large.

And barriers are anything from simple protection barriers, to reflective barriers, to attack reduction barriers

Ignoring that, there's even unseen fist which ignores all barriers

Sounds like a NLF with the lack of content of the description of the ability (we don't just grant stuff by something having a fancy name, as much as we don't grant Absolute Zero just because an icy move is named Absolute Zero), hell, Dialga and Palkia could use Protect just fine.

Unseen Fist only extends to contact moves, and so it isn't that good.

 

[Smashtwig]

1: Doesn't change much as far what he has displayed in-character, an enraged Arceus with most of his powers still just spammed strong attacks over using fancy hax.

2: I guess this is the only valid point, but doesn't change much per the above.

3: Also no as far I've argued against his character being like that in relation to what he has done.

Arceus is just a character that holds back usually, you don't need to think it too much given what has been displayed in the first place.

Eh, Arceus is omniscientent man, he'll know somehow that Sora's enough of a threat.

If he literally decided to use Judgement Cut End on a 10 year old KID when he WAS testing the guy... I think Sora would get the same serious treatment when Arceus is actually just trying to win

Also just realized

Double Team + Duplication (Legends Arc) + Tailwind + Dragon Dance + Quiver Dance + Rock Polish + Shift Gear + Shadow Force + Sandstorm + Sand Rush + Speed Boost + Extreme Speed

Speed Blitz moment?

 

[Bobsican]

Eh, Arceus is omniscientent man, he'll know somehow that Sora's enough of a threat.

If he literally decided to use Judgement Cut End on a 10 year old KID when he WAS testing the guy... I think Sora would get the same serious treatment when Arceus is actually just trying to win

Also just realized

Double Team + Duplication (Legends Arc) + Tailwind + Dragon Dance + Quiver Dance + Rock Polish + Shift Gear + Shadow Force + Sandstorm + Sand Rush + Speed Boost + Extreme Speed

Speed Blitz moment?

I mean, a character can be omniscient yet simply not make the most of that information, even so, we don't know how much Arceus' character would change in such conditions, if at all, so we'd default to what he has actually displayed in the first place.

Most speed amping moves don't stack past a certain point, notably just being a x4 multiplier at most in total, Double Team is also just duplication, which Sora has already dealt with, bonus points for copies made by Double Team being way frailer than the original, and Sora can even power null duplication too.

Tailwind and Sandstorm require a notable amount of time to setup, giving Sora an opening.

 

[Sniper670]

Clarify potential misconceptions


I've made a CRT to clarify the 5-D stuff to avoid going back and forth, please debunk the arguments over there if you disagree on Sora being a smurf to begin with, until then it's valid here..

I'll respond to that now

Surprisingly, there is, KH is wack, see the stuff above.

I'd simply have to read the blog. and play the entire games if I have to downgrade the verse for it.

I guess there's the CRT above just for that, the fate manip blatantly has straight up above baseline Low 1-C range at the very least.

Range, not potency. So Arceus negs with Acausality type 4 and fate resistances in the verse.

if Heart is low 1C, why are they 3D

And you can neither declare objectively that Arceus instead watches across all that has happened in the past and future already, Arceus required Ash to yell at him to remind him of the time travel they did so he'd calm down by getting back the Jewel of Life, clearly debunking a claim as outlandish as that.

Which was retconned to make Arceus watch over everything. So no.

Arceus was also able to give humans powers to grow crops just by stretching their hands without having to give any plates. And he needed to sacrifice his plates for it in JOL.

It's also mentioned he wants humans and Pokémon to solve their own problems. And do he won't interfere

In clash of ages, he was the only one who could stop the Distortion that no one, not even Ray who can stop a planet nuking meteorite could stop

Every silly thing that led to his downfall, his nature has been rewritten to invalidate it.

See the CRT linked above, there's way more context, feats and characters that actually trade blows between each other, unlike Arceus on this regard.

No. I've seen it. Each Heart doesn't scale to 5D. All Hearts combined are, not individual hearts.

Arceus doesn't have type 3 Acausality and so isn't going to spam avatars, however, what can the Heart do without an avatar?

Sits on the KH verse with 6D nature

Resists

0 feats, no scans, nothing at all. I don't see it happening here

Oh yes, fate manip on a 3D scale for a character that has passive fate manip on a 5D scale, no.

5D range, not potency. He's not controlling the fate of a 5D character, so no

Stitch can immobilize him by just using his ukelele while also healing Sora, I'm not joking.

Precognition+ CA+ Instinctive Reactive + Me first power mimicry

Can erase it like mew did, can envelop it on psychic energy, can negate held items usage
I don't see that happening

Sora's stat amps aren't copiable by anything that is already in Pokémon, closest thing is Transform, which wouldn't work here as Sora's powers as said before are more difficult to copy in relation anything Pokémon has displayed (let alone smurfery), Sora also has Low 1-C Durability even in base out of Second Chance and Once More.

In relation to Pokémon. send scans of Sora stats not being able to be copied.

unquantifiable even

Arceus passively copies and amps his own stats with various things that I mentioned. Massive speed boosts, Stab, and more. Until he one shots

Arceus has low 1C AP and Durability as well as Low 1C Invulnerability

Silvally is also a worse Arceus in every single aspect that was manually made in a non-combat applicable timeframe like Mewtwo, IDK what you're on.

Cool. they tried to copy him. Failed

Okay, please complain in the CRT linked above, until then please accept all that has been brought up here to indeed be 5D.

I think I will.


They're not. which is why that crt of yours exists. to make it accepted

1: Doesn't change much as far what he has displayed in-character, an enraged Arceus with most of his powers still just spammed strong attacks over using fancy hax.

I don't like your assumptions here at all, because we have never seen a situation where he fought or anything.

2: I guess this is the only valid point, but doesn't change much per the above.

cool

3: Also no as far I've argued against his character being like that in relation to what he has done.

Again, you can't be making an assumption here on what he couldn't do

He's seen this match. he'd use the best method to win

Arceus is just a character that holds back usually, you don't need to think it too much given what has been displayed in the first place.

Check above

Given that he doesn't just precog the whole battle and leads with a wincon, Arceus at best is just going to be guessing and giving Sora a wide timeframe to beat him, but more realistically it's just going to spam attacks either way for similar results.

He's not. Sora wouldn't get a chance to breathe here.

we simply do not know what Arceus is capable of. but if he knows there's real danger ahead, there's simply no reason as to why he won't go for the kill

Actually, the abilities and transformations I mentioned (Battle Bond, Zero to Hero, Megas) are entirely immune to any suppressing effects in the series AFAIK, even including Neutralizing Gas.

Cool. guess who gave them their powers and can negate them just as easily

Citation please? There's no typeless Pokémon naturally in the first place, and there's the only inherently typeless offensive move, Struggle, ignoring Wonder Guard (it's labeled as a Normal move out of game mechanics, it isn't even enhanced by stuff that'd enhance Normal type moves such as the Normal Gem).

burn up makes a Pokémon Typeless.

This is the most irrelevant argument here ngl. being Typeless, serves no purpose here as there are moves that simply makes a Pokémon Typeless

heck, shadow Pokémon will deal super effective damage to anything that isn't shadow, typeless or not

Humans in Pokémon are also generally really weak and wouldn't even scratch Arceus anyways, so that's not an argument.

Again, your Typeless Argument is irrelevant here. check above.

Sounds like a NLF with the lack of content of the description of the ability (we don't just grant stuff by something having a fancy name, as much as we don't grant Absolute Zero just because an icy move is named Absolute Zero), hell, Dialga and Palkia could use Protect just fine.

"Omnipotent" is just the name of that ability because of how it works.

Without linking with Arceus, everything will simply miss.

I don't see the nlf when he's not tanking absolutely everything but it's simply missing because all your attacks will be checked by "Omnipotent" and will miss

Unseen Fist only extends to contact moves, and so it isn't that good.

Arceus can TK attacks. which can let him telekinetically hold attacks in place, or erase them completely

in fact Arceus can TK sora for the evtire match if he wanted to. Tear him apart, blow him into smitherines, knock him out, simply smash him around to a pulp

trap him in a time loop age hax, Reactive Devolution as I call it and more

 

[Sniper670]

I mean, a character can be omniscient yet simply not make the most of that information, even so, we don't know how much Arceus' character would change in such conditions, if at all, so we'd default to what he has actually displayed in the first place.

Not Arceus.

We cannot default for the simple fact that the environment you've set here is different from the environment set for him in the games

And for logical reasons, he'd go for the kill if he knows Sora is serious

Most speed amping moves don't stack past a certain point, notably just being a x4 multiplier at most in total, Double Team is also just duplication, which Sora has already dealt with, bonus points for copies made by Double Team being way frailer than the original, and Sora can even power null duplication too.

Game mechanics. 4x multiplier limit does not exist in the anime. Never has, nothing is limited to 4x or any statistics whatsoever

It doesn't help that one amp from the anime is way more significant than how it's portrayed in the game

Tailwind and Sandstorm require a notable amount of time to setup, giving Sora an opening.

It doesn't. Watch the anime

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

0 feats, no scans, nothing at all. I don't see it happening here

For the love of god, can you just look at the freaking profiles? Like, please? How many times do you need to be told that Death Manip Resistance is on the profile before you actually pull it up, take a look, see it, and stop arguing that Arceus just kills Sora because he looked at it? I think that the side arguing for Sora has tried decently well to maintain composure and be patient with you, but this is just absurd.

 

[Sniper670]

For the love of god, can you just look at the freaking profiles? Like, please? How many times do you need to be told that Death Manip Resistance is on the profile before you actually pull it up, take a look, see it, and stop arguing that Arceus just kills Sora because he looked at it? I think that the side arguing for Sora has tried decently well to maintain composure and be patient with you, but this is just absurd.

Resisting one variation of it doesn't mean you resist all. Mimi
1. Killed someone with a mysterious disease
2. Killed someone from shock
3. The person died for no reason

And looking at what is on the profile, I'm finding it impossible to understand how Sora is resisting anything here exactly.

Because flowers grow black when Heartless get close?

 

[Smashtwig]

I mean, a character can be omniscient yet simply not make the most of that information, even so, we don't know how much Arceus' character would change in such conditions, if at all, so we'd default to what he has actually displayed in the first place.

Arceus dum moment. This is why bosses should always use their strongest attacks first

Most speed amping moves don't stack past a certain point, notably just being a x4 multiplier at most in total, Double Team is also just duplication, which Sora has already dealt with, bonus points for copies made by Double Team being way frailer than the original, and Sora can even power null duplication too.

Sure they may be something Sora's dealt with, but it doesn't take away from the fact that they still exist, just having experience against something doesn't mean you can just negate its entire existence. I can fight a guy with a spear before multiple times, and still die to a guy with a spear later on, just cuz I fought a spear guy before doesn't make it any less hard to fight one. Also, game mechanics for speed amp lol.

Tailwind and Sandstorm require a notable amount of time to setup, giving Sora an opening.

Not with Sand Stream it doesn't. It just immediately exists when a pokemon... exists

 

[Sniper670]

I'm not sure I'm particularly interested in the match anymore, so I'll unfollow.

 

[ShionAH]

Both of them slapped maxwell so now they are fighting who stomped maxwell harder