Arceus, Darkrai, and Cresselia

[The_real_cal_howard]

This might be considered speculation, so if a "no" come from this, c'est la vie.

I was doing a bit more research, and I think that Arceus had a direct hand in the creation of these two. The voice at the end of the Darkrai event seems to be Arceus, given that the speech comes from "???" and it's an omnipresent booming voice. Arceus can learn Hyper Voice, btw, but that's not evidence really. So it seems that Arceus created the concept of dreams and nightmares too. Anyway, the voice seems to treat Darkrai like his child, akin to how Arceus sees the trio. Anyway, this is just to add Darkrai and Cresselia as concepts of Nightmares and Dreams respectively, and add Dream Manipulation to Arceus' profile, and specify dreams in his concept manipulation.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

I will prefer if you add the scans for this, @Cal as this will make it much easier to do so and to help your explanation while at it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"???: DARKRAI...your power is strong. Though you don't will it, you make people and Pokemon around you see terrible nightmares...That is why you came here...Newmoon Island...There is no one but you here...There is none that can be drawn into your nightmare...If anyone were to fall into a nightmare,the Fullmoon Island is close by..."

This is the quote. Unfortunately, that's all I can give...

 

[EnderShadowr215]

I see. That is much better to do so as well. I will accept this as it seem A-Okay with me.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I agree with this as well. It seems perfectly reasonable and it makes sense. No other Pokemon would be capable of doing this other than Arceus.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Actually.....this thread reminded me to make something important regarding Pokemon. Be back in a bit.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Bump. Also, would Judgement fall under Danmaku?

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Cal

Mind refreshing my memory on what Judgement does? The definition of Danmaku is the creation of several projectiles at once (That's the important part) to overwhelm the enemy. Not just spamming projectiles.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Judgement is Arceus releasing countless shots of light. That's the actual flavor text. Releasing implies all at once, imo.

 

[RadicalMrR]

I agree with this as well. It seems perfectly reasonable and it makes sense. No other Pokemon would be capable of doing this other than Arceus.

I agree with with you some what but the other options are Dialga and Palkia but I would have a hard time believing it was one of them.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Eh considering Darkrai was able to manipulate them in the same game, I highly doubt they would say such a thing to him about his power. Tho Giratna is an option, but that might be doubtful as well.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm still thinking that Arceus should have Type 4 Immortality via godhood.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wait if we accept Arceus creating the concept of their powers, then shouldnt Arceus also get both of their abilities?

Plus the Creation Trio's pressure abilties (IDK Y me or no one else has ever considered their abilities in a VS battle yet.....)?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We've accepted it for a while, and not just the trio.

Also, don't we already have the trio's abilities for Arceus?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I dont recall him having their abilities. Do you mean their hax abilities along with their natural abilities like Pressure?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I don't think we should add Pressure to Arceus, as it's not limited to the trio.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well he did directly created them. Plus with his godhood status, wouldnt that mean that he would have it?

 

[SomebodyData]

I don't agree with the op since it is blatant speculation, and I'm not sure about giving Arceus their abilities thanks to the Mew contradiction.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well it would make sense. As the god tier and creator of the whole verse its not impossible to give Arceus their abilities (theres even a note about this on his profile but thats beside the point).

He directly created the Creation/Lake and if accepted, Lunar Duo's, so he should be able to use their abilities and haxes, right?

 

[The_Everlasting]

I don't see how creating something gives you all its abilities.

 

[SomebodyData]

Well for one, the Lunar Duo one is speculation that won't be accepted. And just because you created something, doesn't mean you have all the abilities of said thing.

 

[DontTalk]

The "created universe and hence has abilties of all in it" point is something I always wondered about, as I don't see any other fiction using that scaling (though it would probably upgrade a bunch of them in strange ways).

 

[RadicalMrR]

How do you give something abilities if you yourself dont have those abilities?

 

[SomebodyData]

There is an ability called Power Granting @Radical.

That's like giving the Stand Arrow all of the abilities of every stand.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Right but the user would still be required to have it as the source of said ability must come from somewhere, unless we're saying Arceus can make up abilities out of nowhere.

Also how would this be speculation? No other Pokemon other than Arceus would be capable of saying such a thing to Darkrai.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Kinda makes sense I guess but instead of saying "Arceus can use this power" the argument will now be "Arceus will create this and give it that power" so nothing really lost in the long run.

 

[SomebodyData]

That's.... actually possible @Kukui Again, Stand Creating Arrow example.

This is speculation because it's never shown, stated, nor even suggested to be Arceus.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I dont know what Stand Creating Arrow is so I cant really comment on that.

Not suggested to be Arceus? What other Pokemon would know who Darkrai is, the defined descriptions of his power and be able to state such a thing out of nowhere? No pokemon other than Arceus would know about Darkrai's power to his degree. If it's not Arceus then who else could it be?

 

[DontTalk]

That "creator scales to creation" line of reasoning in a certain sense also has shown itself to be screwed up various times.

How many examples do we have of a being inside the creation of a creator being later on defeating the creator being itself?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Not suggested to be Arceus? What other Pokemon would know who Arceus is, the defined descriptions of his power and be able to state such a thing out of nowhere? No pokemon other than Arceus would know about Darkrai's power to his degree. If it's not Arceus then who else could it be?

That's not a suggesstion. That's a guess.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

"???: DARKRAI...your power is strong. Though you don't will it, you make people and Pokemon around you see terrible nightmares...That is why you came here...Newmoon Island...There is no one but you here...There is none that can be drawn into your nightmare...If anyone were to fall into a nightmare,the Fullmoon Island is close by..."

This doesnt sound like a suggestion?

 

[SomebodyData]

Uh to that degree? Basically any Pokemon or even human who knows Darkrai's backstory? Again, it's no where suggested to be Arceus. This is again, speculation.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Nothing in that dialogue implies that Arceus created Darkrai, or even that this "???" created Darkrai at all.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That "creation scales to creator" of reasoning in a certain sense also has shown itself to be screwed up various times.
How many examples do we have of a being inside the creation of a being later on defeating the creator being itself?

Right but the issue with this is that this isnt the case for Pokemon as the Creation Trio are consistently shown to be immensily inferior to Arceus in every possible way, even when he isnt at full power. Not saying you don't make a good point however.

 

[DontTalk]

My point is something inside of a creation can develop abilities not directly given to it by the creator or possible for the creator.

Or in other words Arceus didn't have to give the ability directly, it could have been archieved through developement of the abilties the individual pokemon is able to have.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Uh to that degree? Basically any Pokemon or even human who knows Darkrai's backstory? Again, it's no where suggested to be Arceus. This is again, speculation.

A pokemon who would be able to speak of this from an unknown place and time?

Also wasnt this from the Mystery Dungeon games? If so then no human would be capable of this.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Snip

Right but all the Creation Trio do is watch over their concepts from their respective realms and with no notable opponents to train and develop their powers with they wouldnt have any way of gaining abilities outside of the realm of their creator. So its more likely that all of their abilities were just given to them since they have no real way of getting stronger outside of being caught by a trainer. At least I think so.

 

[SomebodyData]

What? No it takes place in a event in the main games.... which had the character in a dream... with a mysterious old man....

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Like I said earlier, c'est la vie. This falls under speculation, so I'm not gonna try to push it harder. Only things I wanna know now are Danmaku and type 4.

 

[SomebodyData]

You mean other than the mysterious old man who apparently was waiting for you for 50 years?...

Wait, have you even seen the context behind this quote? If not, I recommend you do.

Of course, there is also the potential argument that events are non-canon plain and simple. And the fact that this quote has no impact on Arceus getting more abilities. So I'm starting to think this should just be dropped....

@Cal not sure about Danmaku, but Type 4 I could see.