Arceus Abilities

[The_real_cal_howard]

Chaos didn't directly spawn every Olympian and Titan. Only spawned Gaea and Tartarus. I don't know if God directly spawned Alphamon, but I doubt it, and the dude still has every concept in the verse, so that's a double standard. I know nothing about Aesir so I can't compare. But at least 1/3 of your examples don't work.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui
Plucking someone from a timeline does not mean Causality Manipulation.

But this isnt what happened. The player wasnt simply just removed from a timeline. The timeline itself was erased completely and the player who came from that timeline was automatically erased as a result too despite being in another one. Meaning there was literally nothing left of them or that timeline period.

 

[NeoZex6399]

Exactly, Dialga allows the protagonist to exist (effect) without the need for a past or birth (cause)

 

[Kaltias]

I was specifically told that we don't do this type of scaling when I asked if it was ok to scale powers https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Godcat from https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Akro as she explicitly created him. So no, we don't do this type of scaling.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

Can someone tell me the current point of this thread? It's getting derailed (like most Arceus threads for some reason).

 

[Momokamaru]

Arceus does not have the powers of the Creation Trio. The Creation Trio is not a part of Arceus unless you wanna consider the entire Pokemon universe as part of Arceus. In that case he would have every power and be omnipotent which is as nonsensical as it can get.

What Arceus does have is superior abilities to that of the Creation Trio.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The trio are literally stated to be parts of him.....and just because they a part of him does not mean in any way the pokemon verse itself is a part of him (aside from the O.S. at least). Using the "term" omnipotence just makes it even more incorrect when clearly that is far, far, far from true.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

As stated in The Original Story:

"In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of chaos. At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg. Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One. From itself, two beings the Original One did make. Time started to spin. Space began to expand. From itself again, three living things the Original One did make. The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be. The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be. The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep..."

Source

 

[Momokamaru]

No other Creator God is scaled that way though.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because unlike them Arceus is a special case and can scale off of his own creations abilities. And yes there are. As cal mentioned this has been a thing before too.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Because unlike them Arceus is a special case and can scale off of his own creations abilities. And yes there are. As cal mentioned this has been a thing before too.

Who?

When?

Arceus is not a special case, his profile shows clear bias.

 

[Momokamaru]

What is this "special case"? What makes this case special? Arceus already has the abilities of the Creation Trio, why give him all of them? That's far fetched to think he has all of their powers when it isn't outright stated.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Idk when this was a case myself as i've heard it was from others like above. And with all due respect matt, I don't see how Arceus's profile has bias. No one here (well not me anyway) are giving him special treatment. It's claimed he's a special case because he not only created them, but also their concepts and the fact they are parts of him. So he'd scale above them in terms of everything, AP and hax.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

"All of them" clearly not. I mean, he doesn't have the same moveset as them, and they as well would've developed more things throughout the history of the multiverse. But he has Time, Space and Antimatter manipulation at least.

 

[Momokamaru]

Exactly, not causality manipulation. I mean Arceus is already acasual. What's the point of having causality manipulation if he's superior to the concept in the first place? Seems redundant.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That one is debatable still, given what happened in Mystery Dungeon. But I'm not going to take sides on that one.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What is this "special case"? What makes this case special? Arceus already has the abilities of the Creation Trio, why give him all of them? That's far fetched to think he has all of their powers when it isn't outright stated.

Because why should it be? It's kind of common sense. If they are creations of him and parts of him and concepts made by him to where he can completely control them, then there's no reason why he wouldnt have all of their haxes. Unless do you mean Pokemon moves? If so thats a different debate.

 

[NeoZex6399]

But if Arceus has the same feat as Dialga in manipulation of causality, he prevented Grovyle and Dusknoir from disappearing even though the time line where they were born was eliminated...

 

[Reppuzan]

@NeoZex

Again, that does not necessitate Causality. Any sufficiently powerful Reality Warper can do that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't see how in any way reality warping is able to do that. You need to be acasual or manipulate it in order to stop yourself or someone from being erased along with a past timeline, like majority of characters here have listed. How is reality warping able to stop that?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

If you're not the one being blinked out of existence, such a thing is a laughably easy feat for any Reality Warper worth a damn.

We don't hand every Acausal being Causality Manipulation, nor do we throw Causality Manipulation at every Reality Warper.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Of course not because being acausal doesnt mean you can manipulate or control it. It just means you aren't affected by cause and effect like killing someone in the past to affect the future. I have never heard of reality warping being able to stop cause and effect before even high level ones.

In this case, the cause of the timeline being erased is effecting everyone that was within it. The player, Groyvle, Dusknoir too. They were erased to nothing, there was nothing left of them ever. And Dialga was still able to bring them back from a timeline that no longer existed. So it sounds as if he either manipulated cause/effect or he revived them and stamped acasuality onto them so that the timelines erasure could no longer erase them too.

 

[Reppuzan]

@ProfessorKukui4Life

The very definition of Reality Warping is bending the laws of reality to your whim to do virtually anything.

Given his status as the one who shaped everything as you say, it really shouldn't be that hard for him to undo. Plain old regular Reality Warping can easily reset timelines and undo deaths and lost existences.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But the problem here is Arceus was not the one who did this, it was Dialga who's only concept he manipulates is time. And the timeline was not reset, Dialga never revived it at all IIRC. He just brought back the player after being saved from Temporal Tower. If Reality Warping could easily do that then there's no point in their being Casuality Manipulation as undoing lost existences is manipulating cause and effect.

Regardless I think i'll just wait for Cal to address this as he might explain it better than me.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I disagree, but I'm leaving this thread. Don't no how many messages have passed since Repp said that doesn't necessitate causality, but it doesn't matter. Don't ask me for anything related to tier 2 Pokémon anymore.

 

[VenomElite]

Why do these Arceus threads always get so heated? My goodness. Reality warping is a very special power, nearly every other power is an application of reality warping. But that is beside the point.

We're going around and round in circles like last time. When it comes to tier 2 Pokemon we can't seem to agree on anything. It's become rather bothersome lately. More trouble than it's worth. Technically any extraordinarily powerful reality warper doesn't need to also have space, time, causality, etc. manipulation listed when all of those powers are applied to said immensely powerful reality warper's abilities.

So, I ask you all, how strong of a reality warper is Arceus? Considering he's God, I'm pretty sure we can say he's quite the one. I mean he created concepts for crying out loud. As the result, I suggest we don't add any more powers considering he already has quite the list. We are beginning to get way too specific. I'm sure Arceus' causality manipulation is not distinct from his reality warping.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Ven

Sorry, but somehow I've just been really displeased with the quality of Pokemon profiles and how their abilities are listed, but whenever I try to ask for evidence and specifics I always get accused of having a double standard.

I made this thread because I disagreed with the powers placed on his profile which are given little to no evidence to back them. I just feel that we need to be stricter about throwing on powers aimlessly, since vague speculation seems to have crept onto a lot of profiles recently.

 

[VenomElite]

@Reppu

That's understandable man.

 

[RadicalMrR]

I can say the 1,3 and 4 thing u listed in the OP were discussed heavily in threads with hundreds of replies each. While I didnt participate in them because of exactly whats happening now, I think Donttalk did so the threads should be easy to find under his contributions.

Ill go check for them tomorrow since im about to go to sleep.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Radical

I have nothing against them being on the profile, I just wanted evidence. We can't tack on powers will-nilly if we aren't going to at least explain them in the Attacks/Techniques section or in a brief description to prove that they have them.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

I wholeheartedly agree with Reppuzan about wanting citations for abilities. I'm working on a blog focused around providing such citations for the Pokemon top tiers. Unfortunately, it seems some of the abilities on Arceus's profile have not been added on such a basis. There could be some pain for us Pokemon fans when all is said and done, but it'll still be more good than harm to have a blog ordered by abilities instead of ordered by continuity like the otherwise excellent blogs linked on Arceus's page.

I think many problems stem from two factors: 1.) subset syndrome (that is, granting subsets of an ability, such as saying water manipulation is equivalent to blood manipulation because blood is mostly water) and creation syndrome (that is, giving abilities based on a character creating a verse by saying the creator should have the abilities of all the inhabitants of the verse). Both of those things sound reasonable at first, but are ultimately too speculative for our standards.

The good news is, I think there's a case for Arceus having the abilities of Palkia, Dialga, and maybe a few others. Until then, could we all just cut back on all the Tier 2 Pokemon threads? I don't think any other Tier 2 verse gets so many threads, and this is bad for many reasons, not the least of which being that Arceus and co. really, really need citations so we can all get on the same page. It's not gonna hurt anyone for us all to take a break from making threads about the Supreme Llama and his dragon folk till we all know why we think what we think. Till then, we should probably close this thread and not worry too much about the Creation Trio.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Agreed. Arceus is not a special case and he needs to show the abilities.

Truth from Fullmetal Alchemist is the conceptual embodiment of everything, and he doesn't have all powers shown in the franchise listed on his page.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Matt

Precisely! Thank you. If this talk of Palkia and Dialga being "aspects" of Arceus turns out to be true, then that's one thing, but there's stuff from ordinary Pokemon on his page. And because there's stuff like that going on, people are unsure why stuff's on the pages, causing threads on the topic to go downhill.

I just want to put all the sources forth in an organized fashion and let others make what they will from it; that latter part's not really my concern. Not knowing the origin of a piece of information casts doubt on everything else. Hopefully things will stay calm until (and after) I simply gather and present information in a good fasion. There's some good blogs already, but I want to organize stuff by nature/ability, not source. Then related things from different sources can be easily compared.

Does that sound like a good idea? I think gathering sources is my stronger suit, as opposed to interpreting their information. I'll just gather the information, organize it in an easily understood fashion, and mostly leave interpretation and revisions to ones who are more learned in this sort of thing.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

but there's stuff from ordinary Pokemon on his page.

Excuse me if I sound rude but what ordinary pokemon? I havent and do not know of anything on Arceus's page that comes from ordinary pokemon, which most of us pretty much heavily disagreed against. Thats why Note 4 about him "likely having the abilities of all pokemon" was taken away because its too speculative and theres nothing proving that when any pokemon in general besides the creation/lake trios come into being at any random time.

And to be respectfully honest, I disagree with "needing to show abilities". There are cases where characters cannot show abilities due to stuff like PIS, CIS, etc. or because the abilities themselves are ridiculously OP. That would be like saying we take away Conceptual Manipulation from literally everyone who has it because they themselves never use it due to reasons pointed out. Arceus is a perfect example since he himself hardly shows up outside the games and it would be ludricris to have him have to use OP hax like reality warping or space-time hax on fodder beings without being hit with the PIS stick in order for us to give them to him.

@Matt

Im pretty sure Truth isnt that good of an example since Truth himself is almost completely featless and only has one objective: to balance the cycle of equalvalent exchance among alchemists so that when they break a tabuu (human transmutation) he can do something about it. Other than that, Truth is literally an unknown in every other field.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Sorry for taking so long to respond; I gotta go AFK soon. I had something in mind for that first point, but I went and checked and found the move/ability on Palkia's movelist; my bad! I think the rest of my points stand, though.

 

[Reppuzan]

@ProfessorKukui

Without sufficient evidence or showings, we cannot just assume he can or will do something.

If Arceus was shown to destroy the concept of willpower in a battle at least once or at least in a passing mention, I would accept it, but I cannot agree with the idea of every Arceus thread "Arceus would destroy Character X's Willpower/Intelligence" when he has never done so at all.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Inb4 Arceus vs Zeno and Zeno wins.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Cal

I never said that. I just dislike those kinds of arguments when they have little basis in the main series.

Of course Arceus would lolhax Zen-O to death, but he wouldn't crush his willpower as his first move.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If Arceus was shown to destroy the concept of willpower in a battle at least once or at least in a passing mention, I would accept it.

I understand that evidence is needed but the main problem with this argument is assuming Arceus ever needs to do such a thing in the first place.

For one, in a battle? Outside of simple game mechanic matches, Arceus has never had any battle showings outside of Jewel of Life and a volume in the manga. And why should he ever be in a battle? We are talking about the God tier of a verse who is literally infinitely above everyone else in every way possible. To suggest Arceus would have to delete the concept of willpower against a pikachu or a rattata who'd get curbed in a single hyper beam whether they have the will to fight or run away is ludicris. That would be like saying God from Digimon can't beat Zeed without sealing him (or any Digimon for that matter) when we know that is not true. Even the creation trio who are the only absolute ones in the verse who have the best chances of battling Arceus with their powers are laughable compared to just his incomplete form. Having an ability is one thing yes but having to use it is a completely different story. Instead of saying he can't use those abilities, it would bet better to claim that he doesnt need to use them and I can point out a dozen reasons why Arceus would never need to delete someones willpower or emotion in a battle (if ever in one at all since no one is a challenge to him period without PIS) when his absolute lowest basic strength is more than enough.

Am I saying Arceus can get any hax because of this? Absolutely not and I would never argue that period. But at the same time I feel its ridiculous that the god of a verse needs to use such an OP hax against someone who's infinitely fodder and can be stomped in a mere blink.

 

[Reppuzan]

We can't use it as the first argument every time though.

Reinhard Heydrich doesn't start every fight with the Longinuslanze. Arceus doesn't start fights with willpower crushing.

Could he potentially do it in the middle of a fight? Sure. But I hate the fact that it's always the first thing that pops up.